6:54 You are SO wrong about that, Pat!

I see Crazy talk, I must come.

I love how pained Woolie sounds when the Execution Barrier comes up. _You can't escape it, Woolie!_

As a person who has had little experience with fighting games I'd like to throw my hat into the ring here. I tried to get into fighting games, and I have never ever found a type of multiplayer game that exceeds their ability to die. Fighting games are built like mayflies: they come out, buzz around and DIE super hard. It's incredibly discouraging and nigh insurmountable when you learn that the window to enjoy a game exceeds your ability to actually excel somewhat at it. Pick up and play controls are the only thing that matters in that sense. Why would I bother playing a character when I can't even use the move-set without hours of practice, and even then still not understand or accomplish 10% of the game's potential. Fighting games just have too harsh of a learning curve because of their competitive nature and inaccessible controls. No one wants to load up a game and fail without being able to understand WHY they failed (or at least enough to be able to learn how to avoid the cause of failure). So when you have a game that's completely focused on multiplayer VS matches where your opponent is another person, there's little to no chance of you being able to win ESPECIALLY against seasoned players when you don't know what the fuck you should do to counter 80% of the time.

If you want to save fighting games, look at the fighting games that have worked with casuals, like really worked. For all of these games character development was the top priority because that's what translates the best with people who don't play fighting games regularly. By talking about parry systems and combo strings and frame data you're genuinely confusing them, but if you make the characters really innovative and well designed and market the game as " hey come be the fucking cool guy isn't he dope!" More people will buy it because they want to play as that character. The more characters you have/market the more people will attach themselves to one of them and learn the mechanics as them. Now onto mechanics, you don't have to make the games super simplistic, but you need a skippable tutorial system that treats the player like they've never played a fighting game before ever because they have a really high learning curve that most fighting game devs misunderstand. Also, you absolutely need a separated casual and competitive online pool so players can choose what they want to do

As fun as Skullgirls and MvCI are, the ridiculously long combos don't help players still learning fighting games. For new and learning players, it can get infuriating getting caught in a long combo loop multiple times. It's especially bad in Skullgirls' case since the combos can get reset. Even though Skullgirls has systems in place to prevent infinites, I feel it'd be better keeping infinites from being a possibility in the first place.

It's good to see K.I get it's much deserved recognition.

I can personally attest to pats statement about losses hurting the most in fighting games out of any other game.

I'm sure they hate to admit it but Matt is bang on, Mortal Kombat and Injustice are always gonna be the biggest sellers. And that frustrates some people because they're not Japanese-style fighters, but those don't sell as well for two reasons. One, Japan doesn't buy games unless they're on handheld, as Matt has pointed out in the past. Two, there are like fifteen different Japanese style fighters whilst Netherrealm is really the only company making AAA fighters in the States. Plus you have the inherent brand value in MK and DC, whereas Joe Average will look at GuiltyBlue or BlazGear and go "I don't like those Chinese cartoons, let's do some Madden."

I love how Woolie gave extensive, in-depth theories about how to save fighting games in this video, and now 3 years later, when Pat posed the exact same question to him once more, he simply replied, “Work.” with the dead, hollow cadence of a Vietnam veteran.

its crazy that from the perspective of a person who never got into fighting games after trying so many times, pat hits exactly why I never could get in 100%

11:53 If you want more people playing Killer Instinct shouldn't the Arbiter be free. Maybe Matt was trying to use a double negative. Also, fuck Pat is crazy. Skullgirls looked amazing on release.

Matt could not be more correct in his interpretation of what fighters need to grow in popularity

this is all so interesting now. Matt talking a little about inputs to the average joe calling them "secret moves", Woolie talking about the package and structure the game is sitting in to keep an average joes attention and interest, and Pat

If people don't care about the base of competitive fighting, it would be almost nigh improbable for any company to have to build something actually interesting around that "boring" core, unless it's out of love. It doesn't make any sense to cage the core fighter by making something better , instead of just making something better and leaving the core fighting out. Saves time , money, and makes sense

Street Fighter VI really makes this all sound a lot smarter in hindsight.

talking about fighting games with simplified controls, is anyone mentioning P4A? thats a game that rewards full/proper input, but still allows people to do supers by finishing a normal combo. total fighting game newbies can get into it, at least a little, and not feel like they're doing nothing (probably so the series fans could easily force their way through story mode). if i remember correctly, its even got tutorials on a per-character basis, so when youre ready to take the next steps after mashing, you can. and _then_ the combo mashing becomes incentive to memorize your moves/strings because you dont want to waste SP doing powered down supers.

What is with people saying execution is holding back fighting games when it’s an integral part of fighting games.

i would like to see that interview pat is talking about with the gears thing.

it's not just about if the game is team based. You look at something like guns of icarus- not a lot of players there. It's about being a cog doing minimal tasks. If you fuck up in guns of icarus you fuck up for everyone. If you can't fly or shoot you're not getting a kill. If you fuck up in overwatch or dota2, never talk to your team or coordinate anything, just run around killing dudes- Defeat, but I went 10/5 tho. So it's not my fault we lost it's just my shit team. All the most popular games right now have a bit of "but i got a kill tho :)" fighting games there is no excuses. You win or you lose.

KI...the cruelest joke of the FGC...so well made...but XBone only...SFV wouldnt have plagued the fgc if KI was the 2D grounded fighter of choice(or if KOF14 had decent graphics, but thats the other cruel FGC joke).

Dissidia NT is literally everything they recommended. Big initial roster, 3v3 team-based arena fighter, simple inputs, free to play, and did the whole rotating free roster thing. It died off suuuuuper hard.

They don't play MOBAs so Pat doesn't know. Think of the same fighting game mentality of a 1v1 and losing (eg top/mid lane), now knowing you've lost and making your team suffer hard because you screwed up early Then having to stay in the same unwinnable match up for 20 minutes till you can surrender (If your team wants too). I'm not gonna even mention losing the game because of teammates.

Pat's opinion and actions must be the work of a Canadian stand

So funny listening to this in 2023, in the wake of project L, a 2v2 pvp team based fighter lol

Matt's completely on point, and Woolie and Pat are both wrong about asking where the succesful fighting game with easy inputs is. Its in Smash, its in Mortal Kombat, by lowering the ceiling of Fighting Games, and raising the floor, you do a lot to the likability of a video game, and make it much less difficult to have fun.

Maybe sticking fake AI players in the game to give new players a few wins in their first ranked matches and maybe again if they were on a losing streak till they get to I don't know 50 wins would probably have a HUGE effect I'm into it

So, how to save fighting games? Didn't know they were in trouble, but I can't resist chiming in on the subject as I think about it a lot. Hate to say it, but the most common problem I see cited is the community, and I have to agree that if anything is gonna deter me from a fighting game, it's the FGC. Members of the FGC don't understand the concept "there's a time and place for everything". They march into casual player lobbies to flex their muscles, build their ego, or experiment with new combos against live opponents so that their precious rank is untouched. If you're making a fighting game, and you can give a 100% guarantee that the lobbies for casual, low stress, play (player matches) will actually stay that way, I imagine that your game would be very popular. I've never played fighting games more than when I had my group of 4 to 6 friends that I would play with in private matches, because making it private guaranteed we were free from that nonsense. Not even done yet. The FGC is that messed up. I don't know when it became a thing, but the FGC decided at some point that every single fighting game has to go to EVO. So, even among the super elite gamers who only care about competitive play, it's impossible to maintain a high player base. While their are sometimes dozens of fighting games in a franchise, there is basically one definitive version of CS. Everyone's only playing LoL because there's no "LoL super plus ultra your grandma's new digital deluxe hyper edition". So, even if the FGC wasn't full of griefers, none of these games have enough time to build a substantial player base because the FGC is constantly urging players to move on to the next new fighting game. When's it coming out? OH, just in time for EVO! What great timing! This is the year I can be the big winner since it's a new game. I'm sure their are some games that are an exception to one of these problems, but I've yet to see one that avoids both issues. I'm also sure that there's other stuff I'm not thinking of that contributes to the nicheness of fighting games, but I feel these two are the big ones off the top of my head.

This is similar to Bloody roar 4 (Not the ps2 Bloody roar 4 it don't count XD it is nor a non-canon/canon game to me or any other fan) Bloody roar Primal fury/Extreme which this game was split in several ways. Primal fury is an enhanced smoother looking version then Bloody roar 3 on the gamecube (it is however not just an update as it has a new story, new characters which 2 of them I could care less about even as interesting as they are) and Extreme which goes to the xbox and is the same game but fixes many bugs that were in Primal fury... oh and has an extra character character from the bloody roar manga called Fang and has 75% of the moves Yugo has along with a few knew ones but plays more like the old Yugo. Now the question is what are the cons of both platforms? Gamecube controller feels great to use especially with the 8 sided joystick for command inputs (in fact I think someone said that "this game was destined for the GameCube" even when they removed the blood because nintendo). the only con there could possibly be is that aside from certain button rearrangements for actions such as Kick, Punch & Beast/B Attack side stepping is an issue because the triggers on the controller aren't that good and you might end up side stepping left instead of right. Xbox control has bigger problems because buttons don't feel like buttons (compared to gamecube & ps2), the joystick isn't that great to use for command inputs, and it's very difficult sometimes annoying to use the D-pad because it's smaller then your thumb.

The thing they brought up with team-based multiplayer games is actually one reason I prefer fighting games. I like working alone, I hate cooperation and team-based stuff. I don't want to lose because of someone else fucking up, I'd rather have it be all on me. With fighting games I don't have to worry about some asshole ruining things for me or someone else.

You see, Pat is automatomatically wrong, cuz Skullgirls has good character designs. Does explain why he doesn't like them?

I basically just want another SSE from a fighting game a mode that's more than just a boss rush and ending.

Have the super best friends okay with this channel?

I still don't get the crazy talk joke in this

I know why Pat said that, Skullgirls is fine but its style is not for everyone. I have come full circle I just want another fighting game with multiple Karate man but with a twist and detail.

I don't feel like discussing why fighting games should have simple inputs (they obviously should), but Pat did have a misunderstanding at 22:08. Those games are hard to play, but they all have really simple inputs. The difficulty comes from the positioning and pages of numbers and calcs running through the players' heads during every second.

Okay, I see a lot of people fight against executions, and I have two cents about it. Executions such as Mortal Kombat are inherently arbitrary. Yes, square and triangle are punches, cross and circle are kicks, that's easy and simple to understand... but what combos that a character can do, from being something like cross triangle square, or cross square square triangle, or cross triangle + front circle.... and make it so that every single character has different inputs for simple combos different from one another... In combination with simple attacks such as those that are forward + triangle, or down + square, and make it so that certain combined inputs do something different... or nothing at all... for no reason, other than the one consistent which is the uppercut (down triangle)... or how every single special is also entirely arbitrary, to the point where certain characters that all share teleports STILL have different inputs to get their teleports from each other... That's fucking stupid. If you want to have combos, there needs to be actual rules, instead of random "Ow, this character has this input for these combos that have no rhyme or reason as to why they have these combos for hitting these buttons, but not others, and this character has entirely different inputs!"... is dumb. Having rules of combos, such as Jetstream Sam, would make it better. Have a standard combo button, or buttons, and then an end combo action button, would make the game generally better. Or take something like the Claws of Hades from God of War, where the heavy and light attack naturally flow, even if its not an official combo, when the player hits certain inputs, allowing the player to change and naturally make combos with it without it feeling ajar, would also be fine. Whatever the case maybe, make Combos and executions actually fucking natural and solid, rather than arbitrary. It's stupid and lame, other games that exist of the genre and outside of it have done it better. Also, the special abilities should also be separate from the main action prompts. Again, silly to press random directional inputs and then an action button to prompt one. I don't need every game to be Super Smash Bros. when it comes to there being no actual combos, but for fucks sakes make it have something actually learned and easy to understand. The rules don't even have to be the same for every character, like one character can have two ender combo buttons, a special button, and a standard combo button, or two combo buttons, a special button, and an ender combo button, or two specials, a combo, and end-combo buttons, or two combo buttons and two special buttons, or whatever... Just make the characters have easy to understand rules as to how they function with inputs ALONE. Inputs should be the first thing the player understands about the character, and if a player has a difficult time grasping and understanding every single character, if not just one character, because the input system is shit? Fucking change it.

Also, Matt's totally correct about what the average guy wants in a fighting game, because Pat makes the wrong comparisons; the average person comes to a fighting game for the spectacle, while people come to Pat's examples for the competition itself. You think the average person wants to play FighterZ for something complicated and difficult? Fuck no, and most people drawn to it will drop it quickly if it is, because they're there to make their favorite characters do cool shit, first and foremost. Aside from that, complicated motions are just archaic to begin with; we don't need them, and they don't do anything for the game itself. Now, I can hear your e-peenie being threatened, guy in the back who takes games too seriously, but ask yourself what'll make you happier in the long term: doing things the hard way just because it's the way you're used to, or not losing that round because you fucked up the bullcrap input by mistake, forcing you to ragequit in a huff. If you said the former, you're lying, you liar.

Why is angriestpat less angry in is new icon compared to his old one?

Absolver is kinda close to what they are talking about to me?!

So random thought, how do you feel about the Jp side of figthers like Blazblue, Guilty Gear and the like Edit: i feel like lying about a fighter's ease or trying to empower people would backfire. People will notice and they will hate you

They just spent 33:30 talking about how fighting games need to be more like Smash Bros. You can have simple inputs and still have plenty of strategy and competition. The fighting game you're looking for is just something really similar to Smash Bros.

It sounds like how to save fighting games is just make Smash Bros. for Wii U. Simple controls, easy to understand, depth, a way to optimise combos in a simple way that doesn't require complex inputs, casual game modes, items, limited tech skill that doesn't pull you above everyone else but just opens up a few more options for certain characters, and a high skill roof. Don't act like Smash Bros. Wii U doesn't have combos, the game has been optimizes and has become much faster. People curse me out at tournaments for zero to deathing them with Fox. I get shit for playing too fast, but certain characters play at a faster pace than others. The game can certainly be slow and defensive. Smash Ultimate looks like it might be a good mix of offense and defense, and landing lag, jump squats, and end lag on moves is reduced from Smash for Wii U. Every character is much faster except for Fox who is slower, but still one if the faster characters in Ultimate. Ultimate might be a huge success and Ryu and Ken in Ultimate might be a gateway into the more traditional fighting games.

1 - Games have to be made with passion. Both SF5 and MVCI are failures as they were made by committee. MVCI plays well but the content is crap, SF5 looks and sounds great but plays like crap and is NOT streetfighter. 2 - Execution is not entirely a problem, having dragon punches changed to down down helps no-one in MVCI. fans have to unlearn a natural motion and beginners will go into other fighting games and not understand why that motion isn't used. What's needed is a solid tutorial. 3 - Content is key, you have to have a variety of things to do both offline and online. Online is concentrated on WAY to much. So much so that they cater to people who want everything to run it a tournies immediately, I want a game where I can unlock stuff to keep me playing the game for a while. Can you believe people complained at having to unlock fighters in SF4? stupid. 4 - The game should be made with the vision of the developer and not catering to fight pro's with all the little details and do NOT jump to patching and rebalancing the game immediately except for obvious problems like infinite combo's or outright broken/non functioning aspects. 5 - Marketing is key, get your game noticed and get people invested in the game without resorting to lies (Capcom listened to the fans for roster choice!) or idiots giving stupid details (Ono and the horrid Gems mechanic for SFxT, Combofiend in a nutshell).

I've been playing fighting games for three years, now. I don't play them consistently, but I do pick up some of my favourites semi-frequently and have some fun. The most competitive I ever got was with Smash 4, only attending a handful of tournaments. With this in mind, I DON'T want the entry barrier to be lower (easier executions, etc.). Most people who want it lowered either don't have the passion to learn and overcome challenges, or they're busy with life and don't have enough time to dedicate to learning. We have seen time and again that lowering the barrier does NOT help those kinds of players; it only makes it easier for people who are already good at fighting games (and have more time on their hands) to kick your arse. At that point, newbies will be stuck in FGC limbo and not get anywhere. My solution involves two things: learn how to learn, and learn how to teach. The biggest problem I've encountered while trying to learn fighting games is bad teachers: most people have no clue how to teach newbies how to play a game. And on the flip-side, I see newbies either not being sure where to start, or being lazy and complaining about fighting games being too hard. I did martial arts for many years, and I can confirm to you if you do not put in time and practice, you will NEVER get better. And in order to learn consistently, you need to stay committed! You can do it for two hours on a Sunday night for all I care - the point is to COMMIT. "The community is toxic!" I hear. "All those elitists ruin the FGC!" Wrong - the community is COMPETITIVE, which means people with poor emotional regulation will likelier get angry. Look up the frustration-aggression hypothesis and emotional regulation. If you want to "cure toxicity", you have to target the actual sources of frustration. Those sources are: 1. Lack of good resources teaching people how to regulate their behaviour. 2. Lack of good resources teaching people how to learn the game (teachers, easy-to-find and translatable info, etc.). That's it! You basically solved half the problem. The only thing left for people to do is to stay committed. And if you stay the course, you'll get better. Just be patient and enjoy the experience.

Stop trying to save fighting games. They don't want to be saved.

Listening to them try to justify getting an Xbox one x, a console with no exclusives, over ps4 pro, a console that has the second most amount of exclusives, is hilarious

Dungeon Fighter Online was basically a beat'em up, but with a little tweaking could have been a sort of online team based fighter. Maybe. As for the Gears of War LIE, I hate it. That's the worst. If you tell the player about it than okay, but no. Not like that. That's manipulation to create a false sense of skill. Training wheels are fine, but only so long as you know you're on them only until you don't need them anymore. Destiny 2 even does this. I love that game but giving you aim assist in PVE and then telling you to go to crucible without so much as a warning can be rough. Developers, tell your players the truth! Unless your players are children. *Sigh* Which they usually are...

Melee????

How to save fighters? Stop fucking around with this scrub shit and bring back Bushido Blade.

Pat nailed it on skullgirls. Game is worst looking than mvci.

Not really into Skullgirls.