I worked with a Pentecostal Minister who would mock about the seer stone but he had no problem with himself being a water witch and helping members of his congregation drill for water.

I think when they said there were five stones, they were describing the three known and presuming that the eyeglasses object described by Oliver also existed. I think Oliver made up the eyeglasses due to being concerned outsiders wouldn't accept the miraculous abilities of the existing stones or was describing a plan he had to install the first two stones into an apparatus which never came to fruition.

The whole thing sounds like a story by Washington Irving who wrote about the folk magic in that period and area.

As someone who's never been Mormon I don't care that much whether Smith was a fraud or whether he believed in what he said (the Book of Mormon already has enough problems on its own) but listening to this is why I'm fascinated with the guy, his work gives me a small glimpse to what early 19th century America was like and how people thought at the time. As usual thank you for this podcast.

This is amazing information, thanks very much for all your time putting it all together. God bless.!

Thank you

I think that it is fair to say that Joseph had the biggest stones ever. There is no credible evidence that Joseph came up with the story that he needed to bring Alvin to the hill the next year (1824) before Alvin died Nov. 19, 1823. There is also no evidence that it was Joseph himself who dug up Alvin's body in 1825. In my opinion, Joseph would not have done so because he knew he just made up the story about the necessity of bringing Alvin. I agree with Dan Vogel that Joseph Sr.'s excuse for digging up the grave to see if it had been disturbed is ludicrous because it would have been obvious from a casual inspection whether the ground had been disturbed and that Joseph Sr. likely dug up the body to take it or some part of it to the hill. Joseph Sr. likely placed the notice in the paper about the rumor that the body had been disturbed to cover his tracks after he had dug up the body. For anyone to take these stories seriously is just insane/

THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE STORY THANKS FOR THE VID

Sounds like witchcraft to me, especially the part about sacrificing dogs.

To have a successful religion and a large group of faithful followers, the first thing you need to have is an elegant portrait of a rock.

Where do they find these stones?

Josiah Stowell requested Joseph Smith's help in locating an ancient silver mine In the spring of 1825 Josiah Stowell visited with Joseph Smith "on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye." [1] Josiah Stowell wanted Joseph to help him in his quest to find treasure in an ancient silver mine. Joseph was reluctant, but Stowell persuaded Joseph to come by offering high wages. According to trial documents, Stowell says Joseph, using a seer stone, "Looked through stone and described Josiah Stowell's house and out houses, while at Palmyra at Sampson Stowell's correctly, that he had told about a painted tree with a man's hand painted upon it by means of said stone." [2] Joseph ultimately persuaded Stowell to give up looking for the mine Joseph and his father traveled to southern New York in November of 1825. This was after the crops were harvested and Joseph had finished his visit to the Hill Cumorah that year. They participated with Stowell and the company of workers in digging for the mine for less than a month. Finally Joseph persuaded him to stop. "After laboring for the old gentleman about a month, without success, Joseph prevailed upon him to cease his operations." [3]

my question is where that seer stone power came from? please tell me.

I really want that stone with the holes in it. I feel like it's mine!

This dude has a point. A ten year old would think it’s cool that Joseph translated with a seer stone in a hat but it’s the church leadership that was freaked out. I remember reading some quotes by some prophets after Taylor or woodruff. The guy basically says there’s no way Joseph would use evil things like peep stones and would only use the urim and thumim. It’s like one could rationalize and say obviously god made them both or the seer stone could be just as divine as the urim and thumim. Like that’s a leadership problem for the changes in ideas that happen over time. Makes me think of caffeine and the word of wisdom. Recently like a year or two ago the church was like vaping is bad and not church supported because there’s nicotine in it. I pulled my hair haha. It’s like science has proven the carcinogenic stuff in tobacco that causes cancer. It’s not the nicotine. But the church supports caffeine which is basically the derivative of tea or coffee. It’s like maybe the church never banned caffeine cause they’d lose half their membership idk. That’s probably the real reason. But I was shocked to read byu was now against kava which was basically the church supported root version of beer. People be like it’s not alcohol which is true but the effects are similar just ask a Polynesian.

“The enchantment would move the treasure” mounting in endless digging for poor fools? That’s sounds like the beginning outline for church followers.

my husband (who was losing his faith in the bishopric) got me to listen to this episode on new years eve 2017. I only listened because Bill still had his temple recommend. I didnt want to hear anything anti-mormon. By the end of this one episode I knew the Church wasnt true and I never went back. i have listened to 1000s of hours of podcasts and read many books on Mormon history since. My husband and I and our 4 kids are living a beautiful happy loving life after leaving the Church. ❤

Great episode

Why do you continue to use the euphemism "messy" ?

I cannot believe anyone could take this seriouly.

If you think this is incredible you are in self deception by aggrandizing what the Bible warns us about dealing with spirits

WTF??? After articulating all this folk magic nonsense you come to that conclusion???

The Book of Mormon is 85% King James Bible. If you encountered any truth in it, it came from that. Of course, Joseph had to edit it to make it his own particular (not Christian) gospel.

Well well. It comes down to believing that The Golden plates were taken back up to Heaven ?? 😂😂. 🙉🙊🙈. Its a no brainer for me. Joseph Smith was a con man. Folks are brainwashed. Sorry for the Truth. 😢😢. I went to the Mormon church for 2 years , years ago. I was Baptized there. They tried to control my life. Im glad i woke up and left. Good folks there though. 😊😊