No need. Shieldmaster with high dex should usually beat initiative of friends. Charge in, attack, bash with shield, knock enemy prone and then friends can come in and attack with advantage even if they can't flank.

Shield master is fine as is. It isn't the best feat ever, but it is still a good choice for strength-based sword and board fighter types.

I am looking at Shield Mastery for a (Variant Human) College of Valor Bard around eighth level. Proficiency in DEX saves + good DEX bonus should help out in a magic duel by reducing damage from DEX-based attack spells. This should conserve spell slots for Counterspells of non-DEX based spells (at tenth). Jack of all trades can also help with the shove actions. Planned, but no field experience yet. Changing the feat could affect unexpected builds.

If you have some area effect like web or a pit, it automatically becomes a lot better. As a barbarian who gets advantage on athletics, it's very good. So in general I think it's great

@@fhuber7507 I'm in agreement. Shield Master is actually a powerful feat. Particularly in the hands of a smart fighter. The Feat itself's biggest weaknesses are more the general weakness of the character using it rather than the Feat itself. Which helps keep it in balance. But it's also most often taken by character classes that can put extra stat increases into Dexterity so it's weaknesses can be lessened by the player quite a bit. So being extremely hard to hit for many devastating single target spells. And then being able to semi-reliably cancel out damage from area spells even if it's not all of them can help the survivability of the party quite a bit is actually not as far from reality as it first seems when considering the kind of characters it is used on.

*avengers theme blasts*

Wimpy d4? No thank you. Ask your DM to help you get around this.

@@Year2047 Warlock, with the shield being his weapon of choice?

@@baltsosser Hexblade Shield. Two modes, Defense and Offense. When defense, standard shield. When offense, watch as the patron disregards it's entire purpose, as the metal along the inside shoots out, covering the sides in blades. 1d8, though if you use your action to attack with said shield. If set for Offensive, subtract your Charisma Modifier by 7, and that's how much your AC goes down. Guarantees that you still get a high AC, but that there is still a downside to this form.

@@Year2047 I mean, improvised weapons everything varies. DM rules the damage of the improvised weapon every time. Tavern brawler makes you proficient with it, that's all.

Endless possibilities in the hands of a brilliant tactician

@@FELIXWYNN23 shove the fucker to the wall and let the barbarian apply some great axe. rinse repeat.

@@aronnemcsik Barbarian don't really need this help as they can have advantage any time they want.

@@boumxyz Yeah I wrote that comment after watching One Piece DnD... something like that happened

And if you’re using a spear and the PAM feat, you can use your opportunity attack a lot more often and increase your damage output by shoving away rather than prone, potentially higher than gaining advantage from knocking them prone, depending on the enemy AC.

Exactly this. I think too many times we as players want our characters to be good at everything when it's not necessary. Want to put out damage? Roll a bloody wizard. If you want to hold the line, protect the weak and set your allies up for devastating combos? Pick up your shield lad, and join the ranks of the proud unselfish clan of the Shield. Only a true protection warrior understands this. I salute you brother!

@@beezeejo yup. Throw on Cavalier for even more protecc potential. Sentinel, Charger, AND a way improved protection fighting style baked right into the subclass? Yes please! Or even better, play paladin for emergency heals and defensive magic. BBEG got your squishy friend backed in a corner? Aggressively point at them and issue a command! I haven't tried it yet, but the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian seems interesting for a shield-barian build. And that d12 hit die plus rage damage resistance! Even when they do hit you, it's like a wet piece of spaghetti!

Also, it stands to mention the Fighter could once per day action surge to get your sttacks again after knocking them prone. So attack action, bonus action shield bash, action surge, attack action(all advantage). But then again if you were a battlemadter fighter you could do that with trip attack maneuver more effectively.

@@IronEntropy see you guys get it!

@@beezeejo Wizard for damage output? I think you mean sorcerer. Between heightened spell, twin, and quicken metamagics these guys have got damage output in the bag. Twinning Witch Bolt at low levels and Finger of Death at higher levels can be brutal, and tossing around cantrips as bonus actions to boot makes the sorcerer's damage output much higher than the wizard in my book. Not to mention their ability to burn low-level spell slots to fuel higher-level spells. A tenth-level sorcerer could pump out a good dozen or so 5th-level fireballs a day, if that's how he chooses to play it.

No, that‘s the other benefit, which let‘s you add your shield‘s AC bonus to your saving throw, if the spell targets only you. The discount evasion is working with AoE spells as well.

I saw that the other day, the enemy struggles out, aaaaaand push.

Or shove with your first attack, attack with advantage, bonus action shove another creature, action surge attack that creature with advantage twice.

@@dunker-roo9552 Leo's can be done at level 2, yours would require level 5, both viable though

Nice!

The Twitchy Brown Guy if he’s a variant human. Otherwise, it takes level 4. Much less of a difference.

@@jonispatented true

What i picture doesn’t even involve a shield. In an early episode of a certain scientific railgun, the episode’s about a terrorist plot to blow up a mall with a bomb. Naturally the mall is evacuated except for the little girl who was unknowingly carrying it because her teddy bear had been turned into said bomb. When the main characters find it it is going off and Here I’ll just link a video that has it.

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n7B4dLZ9qL6lXas.html Starts at 40 seconds

​@@JaelinBezel and he never linked the video

Mechanically this sounds great, but narratively it doesn't make much sense. How are you gonna shield shove someone while you're holding onto them? If they're are knocked prone, do you also have to go prone to maintain the grapple?

Im glad someone mentioned this, as the shield master feat is amazing for grapplers who only intend to grapple one enemy at a time (e.g. specifically against mages). I have a fighter/bard grappler who is having a wonderful time grappling then bonus action shoving to the ground to make an easy target for the rest of the party.

@@dennisdavis6943The important thing to note narratively is that grappling is not restraining. If you describe it as having one hand holding their shirt, that counts as grappled (they cant go anywhere), and allows you the freedom to shove them prone and also hold someone prone without being prone yourself.

@@dennisdavis6943 I would just say you’re pinning them to the ground. You aren’t prone, just holding them down

Same...I've started with Spellcasters but my Table has gone Fighting Styles and Feats.

My buddy had to buff an adventure because my dual-wielding half-orc ranger was just annihilating everything in his path. Fun times.

In that vain, I would love to see a two-weapon fighting ranger!

@@charliesleeper7318 Two-weapon fighting with dual wielder feat tabaxi ranger, now multiclassed into druid. Uses shortsword main hand and as a bonus action throws and draws a new dagger every turn. This is one of my characters who is currently benched. It's tough until you get scale mail and get above level 8, from which point you either have already reached lvl 4 druid or are continuing as ranger and have the ability score improvement. Edit: There is another part of this campaign in which we have access to gun powder, meaning that my character usually spends a bit of time lighting bombs strapped to daggers which then go off on hitting the enemy.

Vittal Gunja why use a short sword and not a rapier? Dual Wielder feat let’s you dual wield non light weapons.

Good points, and the Hydratta zinger was top notch.

Honestly sage advice is a load of shit. Like you said almost every question they answer just brings up more questions or it completely invalidates a previous answer. Then you also get changes that are completely antithetical to the game such as the bonus action shove timing, as if that of all things could even hope to bring shield master close to the gwm or pam. Best thing to do is houserule anything your table wants and to ignore what anyone else says. AL not withstanding.

@@MooseCastle it's wizards MTG roots showing through.

The Extra Attack feature helps here. You make your attack action for the first attack, then bonus the Shield Master Shove, then Take your Extra Attack after your opponent is prone thus taking it at Advantage.

Ya, one would think that would work and has usefulness in other situations. Like fighting in a tavern. Shove someone into a table :) Small damage as you said but damage does add up.

It would make sense that, in the right circumstance, the shove action should also provoke a dex saving throw, say 1. Shoving someone backwards past an oak tree (Tree roots to trip them) or 2. Shoving someone into the stone stairs of a castle (tripping over the stairs) and therefore moving them up to 5 ft, but only just beyond the item that tripped them, and then knocking them prone. The whole idea of being able to shove someone 5 whole feet, nearly the length of someone laying down has a lot of versatility. I like the idea of shoving a villain off a cliff... only for the DM to cringe. He had a key item. And now the adventurers will have to rappel down the cliff to attain it. Could lead to some really interesting side-adventures

That said, pick up Tavern Brawler and you can beat the snot out of them with the shield itself, lol.

I actually thought about that too, but instead of damage itd be a CON save, if failed, creature is stunned for 1 round.

One would argue that if someone is cornered by a wall, a shield, and another combatant; attacks are made at advantage.

It's entirely because of magic and area effects. It was worse in 3.5e, when most magic ignored armor entirely. Against another sword and armor combatant, plate armor and a shield is great, but not so much against the wizard with fireball, particularly if that wizard beats you in initiative, which he probably will because his dex is probably higher to offset his weaker armor.

@@mavericksolomon395 Makes sense, I guess that's the rock, paper, scissors of DnD, just feels a little rough some times.

its not dnd, its these two, and they are wrong.

Not for guys with nasty spells like "Heat metal"!

its fucking wierd to call real life armor and weapons "op"

did i hear booming blade?

I'm currently playing an Eldritch Knight 3/ Evoker 8 with the Shield Master feat... it's a lot of fun

@Hexproof Project warforged 3 lvls of fighter 17 lvls of forge cleric all the ac

I use a character creator app which recently added Turtle as a race. I made a barbarian and it has 20 AC at level 1 because of the Constitution modifier.

@@emc246 How did you manage that? Tortle makes your AC=13+Con and it gives your Con +1, if you've rolled an 18 or a 17 that's 17 AC, with a shield 19. Where did you get that last point?

Plus advantage in dex saving throws

My thoughts exactly. Baffling that this wasn't discussed

We see comments like "my fighter has AC 25, what do I do?!" from Dungeon Masters quite often. I think many DMs don't fully consider the impact of granting magic armor and magic shields to defensive-minded characters, and thus don't plan encounters that feature enough spells or saving-throw based threats to still challenge the shield-using character. It's an easy problem to fix, just one that a ton of DMs have to figure out how to solve. I do find that AC 24 to 25 is the "break point" where it becomes impossible for rank-and-file foes used in large groups to hit a character in 5e however.

Additionally with intelligent creatures u can just ignore the tank

@@DungeonDudesI think a lot of Newer DM's forget that there is kind of a rock paper scizzors nature to parties Defenses. you may not find something to affect them all. But most that have high physical protection(AC) Tend to be weak to Dexterity based attacks (and often Wisdom ones), The Majority of high Dexterity character's tend to be weak on their mental protections, And the High Wisdom and Mental Protection Characters tend to be quite weak on their physical Protections. So to deal with the party encounters should be based with this circular pattern of defenses and weaknesses in mind. While there are a few characters that break the patterns a little bit. Unless you've allowed your party to be ridiculously over powered. There is always at least one of these three that will affect members of the party and can vary encounters a lot so different characters get to show off and shine in different fights because of their own effectiveness in these kinds of encounters.

To your point about rank-and-file foes hitting the character, it seems like when a character has enough armor and levels to be in a place where they have 24-25AC, maybe expecting minions and lower-CR baddies to actually be able to do something to them is the problem. The whole point of Leveling and Gearing up is to get stronger. I would never punish someone who could build up 25 AC... except for with fireballs and psychic abilities.

@@sloestya key to a good tank is to put out enough damage and debuffs (shoves, grapples, slowing effects) so that you're not ignored. It takes half your movement to stand up from prone, maybe shield master lets you shove two or more enemies in a single turn.

Maybe make it so that it requires a dex check to succeed and if you fail you get hit anyways but take half damage. This way it has a risk to it. Basically DC 12+ spell level dex save to deflect with your shield. Or you could do DC 10 + enemy spellcasting modifier. (Max dc15)

​@@IronEntropy That's certainly an alternative way of ruling it. Extras saving throws and DC's tend to slow the action down a little in my opinion, though. But, to each their own!

@@IronEntropy I'd say just use the enemy's spell save DC

@@IronEntropy I mean, look at the conditions to gain any benefit from the feature - spell - that has an attack roll - misses you - use your reaction - make an attack roll of your own - using DEX, an uncommon power stat for shield users I'd say it needs no additional restrictions. If anything, I'd allow the deflection to be used with the original caster's mods. Tacking on a risk other than the chance of your reaction being used for no gain is a bit harsh

So... a magically mirrored shield

This is my current build and good lord he's a tough boi. Wanted a dwarf that's really hard to kill so gone with totem warrior. Resistance to all damage (except psychic) combined with all those bonuses to dex checks, advantage to strength checks for shoving make him a proper unit on the battlefield. Planning on multi classing into dueling rune knight fighter to get bonuses to attack to negate the loss in damage from not using 2 handed weapon and the ability to grow 10 x 10 ft is gonna make him the biggest threat on the battlefield but really hard to actually damage. Also combining reckless attack, shove prone then extra attack means I'll be consistently attacking with advantage.

That is exactly what came to mind when they explained shoving and the feat

Or just use one of your attacks to shove the creature, then the rest of your attacks AND your action surge attacks with advantage. The only real benefit of Shieldmaster shove feature is that you can shove 1 additional timer per turn.

As a heavy armor using, sword & board Bard that is also proficient in blacksmithing, I've come up with the idea of crafting a hoplite-style shield that will be sharpened into a blade on one quarter of it's shield-rim (specifically, the lower-left if used in the left hand). This will allow for it to be used as a 1d6-ish slashing weapon, thus making it very hard for me to be disarmed in the future. Also, I plan on using silver powder or a silver-alloy on that shield-blade, in case I ever need a silver weapon. It likely won't be doing dmg on par with my main weapon, but a backup silver blade is always nice to have.

I don't understand why shields don't have this feat by default. A +X to AC is good but it adds nothing dynamic, thematic, or interesting. I would think having a shield would open you up to these tactics.

SkyNinja759 you can still replace one of your attacks with a shield shove. The shove attack doesn’t specify at all how you shove them, so just shove with the shield. You can bash them with the shield as an improvised weapon and, most likely, you’d be proficient with the attack if you are proficient with shields or clubs, depending on your DM. It’s already a pretty dynamic item, just be creative.

@@jonispatented I hate the just be creative. If it isn't in the rules you need to sit and talk with your DM to do these things.

@@swiftdragonrider they *are* in the rules. Read them

@@jonispatented you are telling me to reflavor the shove and asking me to ask the DM to adapt proficiency with shields to give me a benefit in shoving.

There was that mechanic in...3.5? With the tower shields that allowed you to take cover, something like that. Maybe applying disadvantage to attacks?

I always rule that being shoulder to shoulder with a shield equipped colleague grants partial cover. Great in a 'normal' weapon environment, not so much versus AOE spells, of course.

You could just retool some stuff from Pathfinder/Previous editions. A feat that if both shield holders spec into they get the bonus AC from the other person's shield on top of their own.

If you read between the lines a bit, it's all in there. Two shield bearers, with the defensive style, side by side, grant each other half cover, and each can impose disadvantage on attacks to the other. Since opponents have to shove you out of the way, the AC bonus and imposing disadvantage would go a long way to holding the line. It's not perfect. But if you had a double row of shield bearers, all shoulder to shoulder, would become a really effective wall.

@@ChristnThms seeing something like that is usually just my queue to cast wall of fire on them.

I'd like to have this explained a bit more, sounds interesting. Are you wielding a main-hand weapon whilst using the shield? If so, how do you attempt the grapple with no free hands. Tavern Brawler as written (and stretching it a bit RAI) makes sense to find that opening and make the grapple if you hit with an improvised weapon (which shields certainly could be classified as RAW but must be held then and not "Donned" meaning you don't get your AC) but you still require a free hand. It would look pretty awkward to try and grapple someone after flimsily glancing with a shield (donned, not swung, without shield master feat) then trying to grab them with a sword in your other hand as the shield prevents it's affixed hand from being free.

UnsuTV shields do their traditional work a lot better when held so I would totally let this happen as a dm

The shove action is relying on your Athletics skill(strength) though, which is why it is most efficient on high strength characters with proficiency in Athletics. Sure, if you only want the defensive benefits, dex base characters can use it, but they already avoid many of the dex saving throw abilities and some of them already end up with Evasion or similar.

Great points, and I've seen rogues dip into Fighter for, among other things, a shield. I also think there should be more shield types introduced into the game that give you more or less additional AC but have other attributes (e.g. a +1 AC shield that can be attached to your arm allowing you to hold certain light in the offhand; a +3 or +4 tower shield that gives half cover and limits mobility, etc.).

@@sysiphusis2082 Your DM can make such items, no problem.

@@fendelphi yeah, I'm actually planning on implementing some in the game I DM for. In the game I play the DM is a strict, by-the-rules guy. Tends to only allow UA if it's underpowered and no homebrew, no matter how well balanced. I'd like some more official options so conservative DMs would feel comfortable letting their players explore more.

Greek hoplites, Roman legionaries, and knights from the primarily chainmail era just called. They want you to know that your assertion is patently wrong. EVERYONE used a shield if they weren't an archer or crossbowman. Even in the period where full plate was in use, shields very quickly made a comeback in response to the poleaxe.

In our group tavern brawler applys with shield, helmet, or over pieces of equipment. Our barbarian love to throw his helmet or shoes at people when angry

@@cyrilmartin5613 lol thay sounds awesome, one of my favorite fighter builds, was a bare knuckle champion fighter, he held two shields and beat the shit out of anyone who told him it wasnt mechanically doing anything for him to have an extra shield

@@jesseknight6888 How? A shield is an improvised weapon when it can satisfy that description: "An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands [...]" if a shield is donned it's not being wielded as a weapon, it's affixed to your arm and that hand isn't classified as free. So he'd have two shields (armour, not wielded, or held) that don't qualify as an improvised weapon at that point, dealing 0 damage since it's not unarmed and a shield isn't a facsimile of any other weapon on the weapon table nor is it wielded in such a way as to be improvised. Sounds cool, also sounds like you have a DM that wanted to play ball with you which is always great, but none of the feats were required for this thing that doesn't work. Glad you had fun though.

@@salihnu tunnel fighter as a fighting style spruces that up pretty well to. Be warned, it makes bruiser and conventional swarm fights unfun for the rest of the party unless the DM constantly considers the environs and how the monsters engage the fight. Either way, it can get boring for a party while you roll on everyone's turn pc and npc alike.

@Coolostomy Fair point and welcomed pedantry. I still don't see what weapon a shield is a facsimile of nor do see it being wielded in the same way as a weapon; note, the word was used and goes yet undefined outside of common English so it's subjective at best to speculate. It appears on the armour table and is, therefore, an armour by definition. If I were to speculate, however, the fact that it takes 1 action to don and doff unlike the weapon interaction to draw a weapon means there must be some functional difference in how it is wielded. Considering a weapon can be drawn and used within a 6 second span whilst a shield can only be donned in that same time-frame must speak to something about it's use and function. To be used as an improvised weapon it'd have to resemble another weapon on the table (to choose damage equivalent) or be wielded in a similar way to invoke DM fiat. I say all of this devoid of speaking about IRL shields as that's irrelevant to the D&D logic. Given the functional difference which is implied but not stated by the differences in "drawing" a shield as a weapon, I'd say that if you were using it as a weapon you were wielding it in the same manner as would provide +2 AC. Now to wield two in such a way starts to become more and more preposterous unless you were using one for it's intended 'wield' granting AC and the other like a cumbersome kite/circle/board/tabletop shaped bludgeon. At the end of the day, it comes down to whether or not you're going to let your players use their greaves or coif or shields as weapons at your table. At my table, I'd likely allow the shield to deal damage (d4 no mod because it's awkward as all get out) or grant AC but never both at the same time. There'd also be mobility concerns navigating crowded bars, tight tunnels, and the like due to the awkwardness of having two shields at the ready at all times. There might even be disadvantage applied for how unwieldy it is to tussle with two shields at the ready. All this said I'd let someone affix spikes to a single shield and allow the Shield Master BA to deal d4 on top of what it does because the feat could use some help and spiked shields and usage in this manner is more evocative to me than running about with two kite shields. While I try my best to allow for things in my games, absolutely ridiculous stuff that doesn't cost a resource and can't be justified by *jazz hands* magic is sometimes cut so that the game's tone doesn't become a Benny Hill show.

sjeggy6 this is a perfect house rule

@@milkenobi thank you ^^

That’s exactly what I was thinking. Perfect.

Why would ya want to restrict tho? At that point it's useless as 20 feet of movement is overkill. Might as well just replace shield master with charger for a +5 attack or shove for 10 feet of movement instead. :/

Yup, RAW and RAI that works.

JCinLapel So the off-hand weapon attack is with the shield that was used to shove? 🛡

Yeah I was thinking that too, especially since you can get a really high AC with a barbarian with the unarmored defense if you have a high dexterity and constitution. With the high hit points and potentially only taking half damage when raging the barbarian can be a defensive juggernaut. The utility of the feat is a big, since at the end of the day you might not do as much as a sharpshooter ranger or a high level rouge using sneak attacks anyways so being able to facilitate them by knocking enemies prone is a sweet deal. You could also consider using it with a Valor Bard. As a bard it is always cool to have another way to help out your allies and the shove/knocking prone aspect work well for that. Then, when your allies get their advantage on the prone target they can use your bardic inspiration for more damage. Furthermore, you likely have a good dexterity for the evasion effect, which is something rouges get, which bards often miss out on (where they often serve similar roles in parties). The feat can be kind of cool as a cleric or a druid too, since they often have a shield anyways. Really it might not be character defining, but most feats aren't nor should they be. It is useful enough to be worthwhile for many characters, you definitely don't need to be a fighter to find use for it.

Don't forget. Danger sense gives advantages with DEX Saves.

Or have the barbarian wreck the poor bastard without being attacked with advantage because they went Reckless

No because you already used your bonus action

Action surge just says you can take an additional action on top of your regular action and bonus action. There's no reason under RAW that a fighter couldn't attack, shove with SM feat, and then action surge to attack again.

Yea got a paladin with only +1 dex. But +5 cha and +2 that I you get from a normal shield thanks to the feat, that would be +8 to dex save. And if i ever get a magic shield that will get better

Especially a Dex Paladin. I'm going to take Shield Master at 8, then at 9 I'll have a dex save of +10 (we rolled for stats). And since the most damage you can do with one handed weapons is 1d8, you can use a rapier without any loss in damage. Sure, I won't be shoving anyone with a Str of 8, but as a conquest Paladin I will be using that bonus action for spiritual weapon anyway, so no loss.

If you can get expertise in your athletic you might success in doing that. Are you a human, hafe-elf or hard orc? Then you can take the feat prodigy, or

My only issue with taking this feat on a paladin is that pallys are a bit more MAD than other melee classes. It's tough to give up an ASI when you want high STR and CHA on top of the CON/DEX.

@@DougAdams but variant human can take it at level 1. Which is especially good for a Dex Paladin, since you'll have a great Dex save. And you will essentially get Evasion at level 1, as opposed to level 7 like a Rogue or Monk.

This. Or hand crossbow/buckler, 2 shots, shove, action surge 2 shots

Gabriel Shervo thats some John wick awesomeness. My build to level 6 was shield master, medium armor master, and defensive duelist Battle master with defense as My fighting style AC 20 23 if I use a reaction to parry with the other abilities from sheild master was a tough character to hit

@@jeffbaril4047 I'd just charm you and make your allies try to hit that AC. Though to be fair. That's what I did to the last 25 ac character I ran into as well.

Surely you could shove as a bonus action first for advantage on all 4 attacks? The literature of Shield Master says nothing about the order in which the bonus action must be used, merely that you may use it if you take the Attack action on your turn. As a quick reference, open5e SRD rules state "You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action’s timing is specified."

@@TheGermanBurger It actually does state it. it states it by the fact that taking the Attack action then opens up the option to take the specified bonus action. Taking the bonus action first means the attack action has not been taken and thus that specific bonus action is not available. So you can choose to take a bonus action first but you cannot take that specific bonus action allowed by the feat unless the conditions for taking it are met. It's very simple if-then logic.

Or unarmed fighting style if you are allowed to use UA stuff

With Tasha's, Unarmed Fighting is now official. Take that Fighting Style, take Tavern Brawler for improvised weapon proficiency, then Eldritch Knight to Weapon Bond with your shield and a hammer... you basically got Captain America.

Even better - two shields

Eh, two-handed is only slightly higher damage potential anyway. My paladin could use her warhammer and longsword two-handed but that’s trading slightly higher damage potential for better defense not only for herself but her teammates as well via the Protection fighting style. Staying alive and keeping the party alive is more important than raw damage potential because party members rolling death saving throws can’t do anything useful. A healthy party is a more dangerous party.

Personally, I really love the feat idea. One question though: would you add your consitution modifier to the hit die?

@@zapin22 I've thought about that and I decided against it just because once again it makes the feat stronger for the more brutish classes. I was also worried about it being too strong overall but maybe the downside of expending hit die is worth the power. But it would be a lot of fun to make a CON 20 barbarian based around the dragon breath.

I had a DM who studied "Viking Style" combat (there are no surviving Manuals or teachings for real viking fighting so most modern Viking Style combat styles are, at best, educated guesses based on modern martial arts and body mechanics), he couldn't think of any reason why you couldn't shove first then attack except that it would be a little too powerful (gamewise). He made a homebrew rule stating we could use the shield shove between atack actions as a happy medium. He also added an Axe Master feat that included the ability to pull an enemy toward you or to the side by grabbing itwith the crook of your axe.

1d4+ str I think

This can be achieved with Tavern Brawler. Well, the damage, anyways.

What about a DEX based weapon benefits from this more than a STR based attacks?

@@ChristnThms Unfortunately, the offensive Shove is reliant on your Athletics check, so you need a good STR to ensure you win the shove contest.

@@DungeonDudes agreed. I was questioning the post that said it was best for DEX. I don't see how that could be.

There is a class that does have both good athletics and dex saving throws: paladins (after level 6 at least)

@@dynamicworlds1 ...so do monks...

We're running the feat as intended in our current campaign, and it is far from "useless" -- it just doesn't increase the personal damage output of the person who takes it. I do agree that a version of this feat that said "While wielding a shield, you can use a bonus action on your turn to take the Shove action" would probably be fine, I understand why the designers were conservative about it.

It’s for team play. Your party will get the benefit of advantage.

The fighter could still use their action surge feature after knocking the target prone. And it might not be able to get back up on the start of its turn if other characters get to beat on it before its turn comes up. Plus, getting up from prone will cost a creature half of its movement for that turn, unless it has something that says otherwise.

It's a good combo for the party IF the initiative order is beneficial, which is kinda rare in my experience. The action surge route is good, but a feat that relies heavily on another ability like that isn't worth taking. And halving an opponent's movement is nice, but again you have to pass a contest of dice and sacrifice a bonus action to only get half movement off. My point is that without the opportuniry to push the opponent down first, the feat is completely neutered and not worth taking

@@Ugliduckie You don't need to have shield master to shove. You could give up one of your attacks and then get advantage on the rest of the attacks in your action. Getting a free shove as a bonus action is still a benefit, even if you don't get advantage on your attacks in that round. The saving throw benefits are pretty nice as well.

Fernando Saar Paz This may work but iirc, you don’t get reaction or opportunity attacks on movement that is forced for any reason

@@elboricua228 Old comment I know, but for people just viewing - this combo doesn't work as you are right - Forced movements don't invoke opportunity attacks.

There are no flanking rules in 5th edition save for the optional addition found in the DMG. If you do use this then yes you can gain advantage but since it is optional we don’t include it as a main source for advantage.

@@DungeonDudes fair enough, yeah if a table doesn't use it, then yeah, it would be a weirdly easy way to gain advantage of actions and bonus actions didn't work the way they do RAW. though, considering how common usage of the option flanking rules are, I made the mistake of taking them as a given, my bad.

Sadly shield benefits only apply to one shield

Mike Bieser I like that, thanks!