Right..... Gotta watch those kids who want hard shins next week. It's takes time and they actually DO microfracture their shins with trying to kick trees and poles harder than someone else out of ego. Tiny regular "tapping" and light rolling works, trying to break stuff doesn't.

Yeah but thats still good . Getting your nerves used to the impact they need to be able to take the impact .

​@@TheRealNickGwhy tf you you kick a tree ? 😂 i mean i get why you'd kick a bag but a tree is just gonna cause injurys.

​@@TheRealNickGThank you for telling me😂😂😂. This will certainly save me tons of pain in the future😭😂😂

exactly

Wait, what about chinese iron palm? They definitely arent weaker than my own, also you cant explain it with dead nerves since any other hand would just snap

Pls reply..

So only tap it once a month.

Kannst dus nochmal auf deutsch übersetzen? 😂

@@averagezyzzenjoyer5630 ja. Was ich auf Englisch geschrieben hab, kann man etwas zusammenfassen: gebrochene Knochen heilen durch das Erzeugen von Knochengewebe mit wenig Struktur, was erst über mehrere Wochen bis Monate zum Lamellenknochen heilt. Durch Mikrofrakturen erreicht man also eigentlich nur eins; gebrochene Knochen, die in ihrer Festigkeit sogar noch schwächer sind, als der vorige Knochen. Um auf lange Zeit Knochen zu stärken, muss man die Knochen halt belasten, nicht brechen.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😐

​@@lalafirdous5717you ok, bro?

Bro hahahaha nice play on words!!

*Ba dum tsss*

Beer made it up my nostrils. Golden info.

I thought to myself, "does shin conditioning work?" Next thing I know I'm learning about bridge! 😂

🦮

I think SquatUniversity has a video that comments on an 80-year old that started deadlifting and developed his spine as a result.

There are literally dozens of peer reviewed studies of bone density gains of people in the 70s and 80s. Please don't pretend to be a scientist or expert. Your understanding of the subject is very poor. You quote a lot of basic physiology and then make dramatic leaps of assumption. Your whole theory about curved shins....domyou have any evidence AT ALL of that actually happening in the real world? There are thousands of Thai boxers that each spent a decade or more on hardcore shin conditioning...have you ever seen this curved shin recorded in any of them? No. It's your own bullshit theory based on what you think might happen, not science, which requires measurement. Bone density is measured by scientists using Dual-Energy X-ray Absorptiometry and many studies exist. If you read them intelligently then you can see a clear pattern where impact sports such as karate and football show higher bone density increases than non-impact resistance sports such as power lifting. This shows impact increases density. (SAID: specific adaptation to imposed demand). "Shin conditioning" is just an organized and systematic way of trying to optimize that effect. Nothing more. I remember a major study of body fat percentage from the 80s using the then gold standard of underwater weighing that recorded -3% average body fat for Canadian league hockey players...not only is that impossible but these guys all had bellies...the test was invalidated because their bone density, particularly in their lower legs was so high that it threw of the body density formula. How did they get there? Lots of stress and strain from ice skating plus lots of stick impacts to the shins. The same kinds of stresses shin conditioning tries to facilitate. I have really enjoyed some of your videos and found them insightful but this is embarrassingly wrong. You even contradict YOURSELF. You say early in the video that impact weakens bones but then cite examples of studies of impact increasing bone density (jumpers). The fact is that bodies are good at adapting to imposed demands and structuring demand to reshape the body, be it weight lifting, long distance running, or resisting impacts is highly effective.

It may be possible to gain bone mass after 30, but those gains are probably tiny. Somewhere in the 1% region. However, resistance training lessens the impact on bones/joints by strengthening/thickening the surrounding tissue.

@@ETBrooD Source, please.

Brain conditioning > shin conditioning

good one 🤣

This is a great comment about ability to increase bone density not stopping at age 30. I have had multiple 80+ year old patients improve their dexa scores from being fully osteoporotic to improving to osteopenic and later normal bone density over time. They did this through calcium magnesium vitamin D in their diet or supplementation and weight bearing training. They were all part of a gym and would do their silver and fit classes and would do some sort of weights and things they found fun like pickle ball that would keep themselves regularly active. So bottom line is its always worth doing the weight bearing training for your bone density and overall health regardless of age.

Good comment. I was skeptical about the statement that after 30 you wouldn't be able to strengthen your bones, as well into high ages your body would still heal a broken bone, so the osteoblast mechanism must still be in place. I also had muscle growth in mind, which may be slower after 30 but it's still there. And even brain plasticity has been found to still work into later stages of life. So it would be weird if all other recomposition mechanisms in the body still are in effect and only the bones are left out.

yeah he didn't even link a source, so this is VERY bad advice to people basically saying 'give up' with a voice of authority when essentially this isn't true.

You are right. If you any research you find that body still works well after 30 and 40 until very old age. I dont know where did he even got that idea.

I'm so happy I found a few other people who caught this as well. Age related decline for many areas of physiology tend to be based mostly on assumptions and only have correlation data backing it up. In regards to boneloss past the age of 30, thats generally only found in epidemiology where the older subjects became sendentary from life responsibilities like work duties and kids. Also, most modern diets are lacking in calcium, magnesium and vitamin k2, also potentially confounded by Vitamin D status. It always urks me to hear these people speak about these things in absolutes as if they're speaking "proven facts" when thats simply not how health science actually works. Too many confounding variables here

I concur. I commented above that we need to study the bone of men who have been doing microfracturing for many years. Even then, it wouldn't be easy to test if the bone was stronger without testing to see how much force it could withstand until it breaks. The truth is we may never have a definitive answer on microfracturing, but it would likely be a waste of time for most people.

How the hell would you placebo control this? Sure, you need a control group, but placebo isn't possible in this case 😂 or can you make people believe they do shin conditioning without them doing shin conditioning?

@@couldntbemorerandom Good point

I always have an igneous lifestyle.

L maoist capitalism wins

Well, the fact is that as we grow too old the bone density declines, so you'd have to build more density than you lose, which is much harder than when you are young

@@gustavohab Average decrease in bone density in men from age 30 (max) to age 80 is 6%. Weightlifters and bodybuilders on average have 10% higher bone density that sedentary people (spinal bone density 13% higher). So if you were sedentary all your life and still healthy at 80, you can probably still achieve the highest bone density of your life. Bone mass drops about 20% over that age in men, so bones are thinning more than they are demineralizing. I'm not sure if you could preserve all of that bone mass - most of the studies are on bone mineral density and not total bone mass, but I would guess you can. For women, there is much more of a drop. I guess it would be much harder to preserve bone density and mass in women.

Sedimentary lifestyle 😂

I have a hard enough time getting a doctor to look me in the eyes never mind inspect my shin-bone density!

yeah this dude is conveniently ignoring massive amounts of evidence that it definitely happens and cherry picking the shit that proves his point. the whole thing about not increasing bone mass over 30 is so stupid and brings nothing to the table imo. thats not even whats up for debate and had no relevance to point he was trying to prove

This! I did this in Kung Fu as well and it is a thing.

Its possible this was more nerve deadening than bone strengthening, not sure either way though

​@@stephenhalfwit-6897Conditioning is more nerve related than bone related.

What about your nerves? Deadening them is bad news.

When you're under adrenaline, you also feel less pain - for now. I've had this myself once when I ruptured my thumb joint because my uppercut technique was kinda bad. But I knocked him out and I didn't feel any pain whatsoever, not even later on when it was a little swollen already. But a few days later, I had a little fun- fight so to say, among cousins. And that time it hurt really bad after punching him ever so softly. Well, I went to the hospital and then I had to wear that stupid namdage-thingie for over a month.

Lol good analogy

the "one dude" is Steven Thompson, a world class martial artist and UFC fighter...

​@@OfDaSouth That doesn't make him a world class biologist or anatomy prof. He's a world class fighter.

@@OfDaSouth Being a UFC fighter doesn't make you a doctor or biologist that knows how the human body works at the cellular level. He is spouting nonsense bro-science.

Contrary to popular belief, tendons DO stretch. That's how the Achilles tendon even generates power through the stretch-shorten cycle in the first place. It just stretches a tiny amount and then returns to its position like a rubber band.

Why do you hate biology? 🥺

It looks horrible, but it's a lot easier to recover from than say, a damaged tendon or ligament.

Excellent comment sir. I'd follow you if I could.

Nice explanation!

You know what, it's entirely possible that it's just due to sensory adaption. I spent all my time researching bones and not nerves. 😂 Pinning so that people can see that we can all fall for bro science lol

I'd say the same. A good indicator for this are the last two years. Just kick a heavy bag after a lockdown. No matter how conditioned your shins were before, it's gonna hurt! So it's very unlikely that there's nerve damage

It's about the downregulation of receptors. Your nervous system works by using chemicals to trigger receptors that receive and transmit that message to other nerves/brain. Receptors basically generate at a steady rate and the total number of receptors will decrease if they are used at a rate that is higher than the generation rate. One of the major classroom examples of this is heroin usage, because the active chemical in heroin hits receptors multiple times thus downregulating the receptors at a exceptional rate, which is part of why heroin is so addictive and why people who use heroin can't reach the highs they did on their first use, downregulation = less receptors = weaker signal = lesser high. In this case, less receptors = weaker signal = less pain.

@Nefal Kartal 😂

@@unknown_savant You mean when you said that microfractures make your bones no longer hollow, provided no information on what happens to marrow, and provided no biological mechanism for how the trabeculae or affected? Yes, very scientific of you. Please provide an actual mechanism or go back to 5th grade biology. I'm VERY open to someone providing actual evidence that I'm wrong, because I'm not an expert at this. But you just made random, unsubstantiated claims without backing up any of it. Your entire evidence consists of, "I kick metal poles." That's not how science works. I would love to learn about bone remodeling, but you don't appear to providing real information. Unless you're sarcastically trolling. In which case, I'm genuinely impressed at your commitment 😂

Icy Mike just tries to make people angry, and usually reaches actual answers by pure happenstance I spend 2 months reviewing footage and reading research papers just to reach the same conclusions I may know more science than him, but I feel a whole lot dumber. 🤣

@@ArmchairViolence Hes a dummy who happens to get the right answer by disagreeing with everyone. Because odds are if everyone believes it there’s at least something dumb going on

"Don't believe everything you see on your favorite TV show, or read on the internet." -Abe Lincoln.

@@ArmchairViolence wait, what about Chinese iron palm? They can do stuff than no hand would normally be able to do, you certainly can’t explain it with nerve damage and they definitely arent weaker than my normal human hands Edit: I looked at the resources you linked and it is clear that the sheer force liquid flow stimulation should apply to the bones piezoelectric effect in the case of shin conditioning too

@@ArmchairViolence ??? Edit: After looking at all the reasources you have linked I have seen that you have likely misrepresented the papers. It is clearly states that the bones piezo electric effect also gets effected in microfracures in shin conditioning, also I have asked my friend in med school and he said: “The Shin begins to develop calcium deposits because of micro fractures. The same thing happens when you run a lot the bones on your legs will get denser. As a result of the change in density the muscles surrounding the bone will also increase in density.”

It still hurts. An uncle I knew broke a baseball bat with a low kick, it didn't cause any permanent damage ofc but it started stinging after some minutes. Striking objects doesn't make your bones tougher but only reduces the pain of it

I've seen Joko Ninomya break two baseball bats with his shin. He was thirty something at the time. I don't know what he is like now

So how do u know if your shins are conditioned or not

@@spencestep1998 you don't get conditioned by hitting the harder things, but hitting them is a good measure lol. I'm a fan of makiwaras myself, and if you can hit something harder at 80% strength without injuring yourself it's a good rule of thumb. Just work up to it, and if it hurts don't do it.

Makiwaras damage your hands and make them look disfigured.Knuckle push-ups are better and should be used together with Iron Palm training techniques.If using makiwara use the Modern soft padding not the old one made of white rope.

Skipping rope with on concrete and a heavy jump rope.

One of my classmates in school trained in boxing, taekwondo under some old hardcore trainer from korea (think kyokushin without knees and lowkicks. No shin pads, lots of hard forearm blocking), and worked in construction as a side job. His forearms were so hard that it hurt to even bump into them, even without much force. I once tried to take the ball from him during a basketball game, and it felt like hitting the corner of a concrete wall.

That's exactly my question.. If this video is true then Thai fighters should have their shins break every once in a while during fights. But I never saw.. not even once snap their leg.. only in MMA fights like Silva, Connor and Weidman, which is strange beacuse Muay Thai has a lot of checking kicks compared to MMA. I guest they are just built different lmao.

Exactly, this guy gets it. This whole video is stupid because it's basically one giant nothingburger that we already fucking knew. Like bro did not have to tell us that running hardens shins.

weightroom is best. so that probably did it for you.

​@@user-go2xi7zq5qyou have no idea what youre talking about. Imagine telling a kickboxer to never train impact on his shins because they will be stronger if he only does weights. There is a reason fighters have harder shins than weight lifters.

Exactly! A solid kinetic chain

Sprinting tells your body “hey look, bones are getting hit HARD. They need to be stronger” long distance running tells your body “bones are getting hit but we can take it, no NEED to adapt”

But no actual experience….

This isn’t a martial art channel this dude doesn’t do martial arts he said in a comment he just started researching this just because he read what some articles he seen doesn’t make it true

I just don't understand how so many people in martial arts do stuff like this, claim that it makes them stronger, and kicks peoples asses afterwards but it's just a complete lie like if everybody is doing it it has to work somehow? Right?

@@messithegoat4111 did u watch the video? Kicking shit doesnt make em stronger

@@imacryptid5254 of course if we go by studies, conditioning like this doesn't work. But going by experience and Observation, it does work. It's up to you to believe one.

that only proves the Muay Thai fighter kicks hard as fuck. I'd like to see real research about either side. cause I'm not sure about all of this.

@@13buthead Here: doi: 10.1016/j.rppede.2015.09.003 See the discussion section. Only the contact sports (judo and sanda vs non-contact karate and control) made bones better.

What you felt was NOT the hardness of this guy's bones. Kicking speed, leg mass, skin thickness, shin muscle tone, technique - all of this contributes to the impact you feel but NOT the fractions of a mm his bones deform upon impact.

@@TheSandkastenverbotOf course you can feel the hardness of someone's bones.

finally someone with a brain. he is ignoring the traditional forms of body hardening and using improper techniques to discredit proper techniques. does not work like that

Thank you for sharing this information and providing your sources!

Goddamn i've never broken a bone

no offense but you probably just have weak bones and/or a disease to begin with.

@@13buthead really not sure. It's also possible that I have been excessively rough on my body. Lol I have definitely considered the fact it's definitely not typical to break so many bones.

@@13buthead the reality though is two ribs were broken 4 times, and my nose was 5 times. That's 13 right there, for three bones. Then one finger was broken in the same spot 3 times, so 16 for 4 bones. Lol

He mentions the bony callus at 2:40 but yeah I agree that your knuckles get bigger in general. If you hit with your front fingers as well, it can form a thicker finger padding from bone flexion and this is also especially true for index and middle fingers

Dunno some of these fighters breaking their legs from leg kicks say otherwise

@@DavidBrown-nn1ou there hasn't historically been a case of a Thai fighter snapping their shins in half, I think weidman and silva are anamolies that presented themselves due to their: Age (which is older than most fighters, especially thai fighters who tend to retire very early relative to other combat sport. Like they were both very much in the age range of skeletal atrophy which would increase the chance of a fracture) and how they threw their kicks in combination with how the kicks were checked, which in muay thai both ways aren't particularly present, silva and weidman both basically slammed the flat edge of their shins into their opponents check which where still making contact with the ground with adequate force, there is just was way less give than a usual checked kick in that scenario ( obviously when you raise your leg, when it checks the kick, it being in the air means its more freely able to move in response to the force of the kick and help reduce force to both legs. Its the difference between breaking a board when someone is holding it firmly with 1 hand, veruses firmly with both of their hands really). I whole heartedly agree with the video, but the mma leg break scenarios are almost misnomers.

Nah the science says traditional shin conditioning is bunk

@@nicholaskarras2759 Same.. never saw a Muay Thai fighter especially elite Thais snapping their leg. They're built different I guest XD.

There are more ways than one to build explosive power.. but I would say for kicking and punching the best way is throwing every kick/punch harder than the last one no matter what condition you are in at the moment, and do bodyweight training explosively, train your back and do weight training and isometrics too, and even flex your muscles every time you look in a mirror. Not rocket science all of it works.

Yeah

Dont listen to him. He has been disproved and is false in a lot of regards. Still dont recommend you hitting your shins to hard.

It depends. Smacking your hand on hard surfaces is not going to work. But your bones can be strengthened with grip exercises that build the muscles for gripping. And we can be a bit more specific, because the bones that are usually going to break in a punch are your metacarpals. So, things like knuckle push-ups could also put those in compression. The bones in your hand can be strengthened, but it's also going to mainly be through exercise.

@@ArmchairViolence i did wall punching for 6 months and the force that made my knuckles blooding at first is nie my warm up force, i can use almost twice that much force and end up just having bruises, how can u explain that?

@@gigaszef8985 Skin callouses. That's going to depend on the abrasiveness of the thing your hitting, and it does not actually require impact at all. Guitarists get callouses on their fingers. No point in hitting a thing and risking microfractures when you could get the same effect from knuckle push-ups or just lightly abrading your knuckles with anything rough.

​@@ArmchairViolence I've always done knuckle pushups, but hitting the bag bareknuckle needs to be done. No comparison. Plus a bit of wall smacking when I feel like it. I think the conditioning aspect is more about the tendons that run over the knuckles, which is why the old hardcore masters eventually couldn't move their fingers properly. But no need to get that crazy; I still play lead guitar semi-pro, no issues. 😎👍

"I just know it’s true" isn't science. You can't be sure that it's the kicking stuff that's making your shins tougher and not say any sort of lower body workout that you do. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people who actively do shin conditioning also workout their legs, since you need muscle to get the force to kick hard in the first place.

@@maestro9765 1. I never said it was science. 2. Basketball players do tremendous amounts of exercise on their legs, but would severely hurt theirselves if they kicked the bottom of a heavy bag with full force. 3. I KNOW it works because I’ve actually developed my kicks by kicking hard things extremely hard. 4. You should stop arguing about things you obviously have no experience with. 5. If you’re so scientifically savvy, you should run an experiment instead of running your KZfaq fingers and mouth.

@@FreeNDeed777 1. If it's not science but merely a personal observation, it is not a matter of fact. 2. How do you know that this is the case? Again, this is speculation, not a fact. 3. This could very well be expectation bias, again, not a fact. 4. Pointless personal attack. 5. Yes, I have to be a scientist/sports doctor to speculate. As for "running my fingers", what are you even on? You started attacking me here for no reason.

@@maestro9765 Nope! You just find enjoyment in starting arguments with people online because it gives you satisfaction for some reason. It’s a matter of fact that if you want your shins to be hard enough to kick other peoples shins, you have to train them by kicking things. That’s why it’s a common practice among all legitimate martial arts. That being said, you’re the only person that thinks you’re clever or witty, everybody else that happens to read your intellectually dishonest assertions can clearly see how desperate you are for attention.

@@FreeNDeed777 Great job for slapping me with a barrage of personal attacks that prove absolutely nothing and aren't even based on anything at all, since this is the only comment chain I'm prominent in on this video. And sorry, but the "It's a matter of fact" phrasing still doesn't make it a fact. I guess you're so upset because you've spent so much time doing shin conditioning you find it hard to accept that it was a waste of your time. You're not alone in this, it's a very common phenomenon in traditional martial arts. It's a major reason as to why you see videos of these chi no-touch knockout masters who willingly challenge actual fighters only for them to get their ass handed to them just in the first round. You still haven't refuted anything in this video. Your anecdotal report ofshin conditioning being effectve says nothing at all and can be explained by several points in this video, such as the deadining of nerves. That is if you even watched the video and not just went straight to the comments.

Legitimately, I would choose the latter. Sounds more logical.

@@sugarcravings1797umm. No

I'll always go for science but this guy is just wrong, the process in wich you condition your shins is a stress, and if u do it correctly it will heal to be stronger, even the guy himself said that bones get stronger once they recover from stress so he just disproved his own point

Not enough! I'm gonna buy MORE!

@@ArmchairViolence guys, you heard the man. Subscribe so he can afford more Batman themed t-shirts. 😁

Everything have a price. Strength it’s not for everyone, we westerners want a lot possibly with minimum effort and no consequences. If you train consistently yes one day you will break bricks with your fist if you like , but expect a little shaky hands here and there , lack on sensitivity, discomfort and that sort of souvenirs . Same for shins , Muay Thai and Kung fu fighters develop what’s known as iron shin over 20 years of constant work and they take it totally with the glory and the misery

Well, he’s a little off, it’s not IMPOSSIBLE to build muscle mass passed 30. Just a lot harder. More work, probably nutritional supplements, and you’ll need to talk to your doctor if you have one (if you’re in the states I know that could be asking a lot) cause they can aim you in the correct direction more accurately then ANY of us on the internet can, especially if they have a history with you and know what will work well for you.

@@captainkiwi77 He said stronger bones not muscles. But even for those interested in bone strengthening over a certain age chances are the that a good diet and peds will improve weak bones where exercise alone can do no more, regardless of age and contrary to what the video suggests.

@@captainkiwi77 Thats not entirely the case. Building muscle doesn't become harder in your 30's. The reason people lose muscle as they age has more to do with lack of activity then with ageing. A 30 year old can build muscle at about the same rate as a 20 year old

​@@kongbanana8947 I imagine dealing with age related issues and decreasing T levels impact muscle growth as well as ya bones but I will say I'm pretty sure both can still be developed very very late in one's life with the aid of a winning diet and possibly peds.

Dont believe this guy. I if you do any resaerch by yourself you find easilty that human body works just normally after age of 30. People would actually die at the age of 35 if all this kind of misinformation would be true. A man just reaches his manhood at 30, or sometime later and body does not go any weaker for decades if you just take care of yourselve. Taking care of your health is same in all ages. 20 years old boy can destroy his health by bad lifestyle just like 30 years old

I THINK kicking could very well stress your bone, as long as your calf muscle is sufficiently activated. But the actual collision with the bag doesn't do anything lol

@@ArmchairViolence thanks for the reply! I Appreciate it.

Bruh, I don't know. I only looked at the specific question of shin conditioning! Lol

I'm certainly no expert, but I think after your body has the required amount of material to rebuild your bones, the rest is just unnecessary. Violence explained himself that the bone repair process is dependent on the clast and blast cells, so unless you can figure out how to increase their efficiency, any additional calcium that isn't required for homeostasis will probably get pissed away (literally). Same thing with protein, sodium, electrolytes, and fiber. Only difference is that you can't influence your use of calcium through exercise

I've heard a number of thai Muay Thai fighters (but I remember specifically Namsaknoi) say, that their legs get strong from years of kicking the pads. And if you think about it, if your shin bone hits a flat pad (which is relatively hard inside, but relatively soft on the surface) over and over and over again, then your shin experiences exactly that - repeated compression forces, just like mentioned in the video, but not along the longest axis of the bone, but along its shortest axis, side-to-side. You're effectively "flattening" your shin against a pad. But I'm not a practicing fighter, so I could be wrong, but this makes perfect sense to me.

@@TheRadiastral 🙏Thank you for your invaluable opinion that makes sense to me too. 🧡

Good for practicing technique and also fine if you're trying to get used to the pain or callous the skin a bit. I don't mind people shin conditioning as long as they don't do it for bone strength!

@@ArmchairViolence wouldn’t kicking the heavy bag just be stress your bones could adapt too? I mean I don’t really damage my shins while doing bag work

@@awesomezombie4565 4:19 is the section on what that would theoretically do to your shins, according to my understanding of the science.

@@ArmchairViolence yeah I saw that but with my very loose Neanderthal understanding seeing that the simple act of walking can even it out wouldn’t the bone just get a bit denser that was always my understanding of wolffs law

@@awesomezombie4565 Once you account for changes like shear stresses in your Type 1 collagen increasing the number of bonds, it's possible that kicking a bag could give you SOME extra strength for a given volume, but the changes are going to be negligible compared to the benefit that squats could give you. But having your bone mass get redistributed into a different shape doesn't necessarily make them any denser or stronger. It just moves the bone around.

I'm not going to say side kicking a bag would definitely condition your shins but, yes, it would be more likely to stimulate bone growth