Should Standard Boltguns be STRONGER in Warhammer 40K

Should Standard Boltguns be STRONGER in Warhammer 40K - Lore vs Game

Рет қаралды 37,027

Күн бұрын

Let's talk about the standard Bolter and its rules within Warhammer 40K 10th Edition - do they deserve more love?
-- Patreon Page --
/ auspex
-- SubscribeStar --
www.subscribestar.com/auspex
-- Buy Warhammer 40K miniatures here --
UK - Element Games: elementgames.co.uk/?d=10426
USA - Wargame Portal - wargameportal.com/?ref=auspex...
or Amazon also in the USA - amzn.to/3QWzuIC
Australia - Gap Games - bit.ly/3N8VBtj
Canada - Fenris Workshop - shop.fenrisworkshop.com/auspe...
These are affiliate links that also hep to support Auspex Tactics videos, though cost no extra to use.
Iron Enforcers Miniatures - thangs.com/designer/AcrossThe...
3D Printers from Elegoo Here - shareasale.com/r.cfm?b=168032...
Auspex Tactics Merch - wargameportal.com/collections...
-- Social Media --
Facebook: / auspex-tactics-1031297...
Discord: / discord
-- Subscribe to Auspex Tactics --
tinyurl.com/yc69mguy
0:00 Intro
1:33 Bolters in Game
5:00 Comparison to Other Small Arms
7:01 Fancy Bolters
10:09 Efficient Bolt Units
13:06 Bolter Patch in 9th
14:27 What do Basic Bolters Need?
17:00 Outro

Пікірлер: 954

@coachgonzalezpg1742 12 күн бұрын

Boltguns feel like I’m trying to melee a Baneblade with grots

@serahshevelan3263 12 күн бұрын

Sounds like you need more grots 😅

@mogwaiman6048 12 күн бұрын

That sounds about right. A boltgun wouldn't do anything to a Baneblade.

@JamalamsTheMagpie 11 күн бұрын

@@mogwaiman6048missed the point hard

@atlasx021 11 күн бұрын

Really you’ve done that😂

@brettmanus7904 12 күн бұрын

Pound for pound it's just about the worst standard infantry small arm in the game. The way it's written,is as an instrument of destruction.

@MrDUCKMAN5555 12 күн бұрын

So autoguns and lasguns don't exist? Weapons are powerful in the lore but the enemies are just as powerful. So makes sense that the most powerful and common weapon the boltgun doesn't do much even in the games it doesn't do much against powerful enemies.

@JOJO-Bub 12 күн бұрын

@@MrDUCKMAN5555 The difference is that you’ll often have floods of lasguns and autoguns on the tabletop to compensate for weaker shooting. While on the other hand boltguns will be more scarce for the meh to okay value they bring.

@return4887 12 күн бұрын

@@JOJO-Bub guardsman also dont really need to have their guns be doing damage, its just a benefit that they can especially when you start putting on orders, characters or just have them being named krieg

@MrDUCKMAN5555 12 күн бұрын

@@JOJO-Bub they only have more at half range 10 guardsmen get 10 shots 20 half 5 space marines get 10 base and even then it would take 35 shots on average to kill a space marines

@MrDUCKMAN5555 12 күн бұрын

@@return4887 same could be said for bolter marines. Their job is just for their utility and point scoring

@SarithenVol 12 күн бұрын

They should be at least AP-1 because they frickin’ explode on contact in lore. I can’t count how many times Bolter rounds have eaten through Astartes power armor with little effort in the Horus Heresy novels.

@tomjordan7606 12 күн бұрын

In some cases yes, but many individual plates actually do put up a defence against them. Close range the boltgun certainly kicks through their armour. But thats the big deal when the traitors start producing a unique ammunition during the HH that can do serious damage to mk 3 chest plate, which is supposed to be the toughest plate outside of terminator armour and artificer.

@SarithenVol 12 күн бұрын

@@tomjordan7606, very true!

@laserbeastman7447 12 күн бұрын

Contrary to popular beliefs, explosions are in fact not good at penetrating armor. That's why tank shells are separated into HE (high explosive) and AP (Armor penetrating) rounds. Now, bolt-shells combine aspects of both to create a worst-of-both worlds hybrid monstrosity that is absolutely overkill against personnel, but can't damage anything but the squishiest of armored vehicles. If I were to give boltguns a rule, it'd either be to give them AP -1 across the board, or to give them AP -1 on rolls of 6 to hit.

@modelsnstuffreveiws6628 12 күн бұрын

I could see damage 2 to show that extra damage it does.

@lullabygully4621 12 күн бұрын

They penetrate before exploding so an AP boost would be nice

@masterch33fII7 12 күн бұрын

I remember how disappointed I was when bolters went from AP5 to 0 in an edition change. When my marines rushed out of a rhino and rapid fired on a hormagant squad… three died instead of 12 like usual. The boltgun deserves so much better.

@confusedturtle55 12 күн бұрын

That does feel cool in that particular case, but my god that old AP system made so many feelsbad moments. Playing HH and firing a barrage of krak rockets into a marine squad that will end up killing 11 marines, then my buddy realized that he can use his sergean's artificer armor to save them all on 2+ is rough. 11 dead marines suddenly to 0 sucks

@ashardalondragnipurake 12 күн бұрын

as long as hormagaunt point costs are reduced by 4/5ths so they can pretend to be a horde faction

@AlbertoMartinez765 12 күн бұрын

they need to be at least AP 1 IMO even 2

@ondururagittandeska2004 11 күн бұрын

@@confusedturtle55That's why HH is so great

@erih2934 11 күн бұрын

@@confusedturtle55 The old AP rules made more sense (you either penetrate the armor or you don't) and was much faster to play. Don't confuse that though with stupid damage allocation that allows a sergeant to throw himself in front of every bullet - that part is stupid :D

@alternateaccount6913 12 күн бұрын

I think that sternguard play into the fantasy of "big .75 cal explosive gun" better than most bolter units. the dev wounds really help them punch up

@ryancor2002 4 күн бұрын

Yes if it weren't for their 1 oc id run them more than intercessors

@vinnythewebsurfer 12 күн бұрын

If lasguns are laser pointers, does that make boltguns the spitball straws of 40k?

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

no theyre still laser pointers. because the difference between S3 and S4 is irrelevant when everything is T5. way too many things got bumped upto T5 that should still be T4 like ork boyz. thats why bolters feel impotent now.

@16psyco 11 күн бұрын

in my eyes the Holy Bolter is more like a solid nerf gun

@stephendarkman576 12 күн бұрын

"Bolt weapon" could be a rule inside the Weapons Ability section. It would be an elegant and easy way to patch ALL bolters at the same time.

@PoolNoodleGundam 12 күн бұрын

What would it do, you figure? Just reduce armor save? Chance for extra damage?

@wolfgangstallionmusic5639 12 күн бұрын

@@PoolNoodleGundam well since bolt guns were used on non space marines humans and mutants you’ll need another key word like (Space Marine) and make it +1 wound for thing that aren’t Space Marine Vehicle or monster

@masterch33fII7 12 күн бұрын

You could maybe give it the anti infantry keyword then? Idk, more AP would probably be the way to go, and rapid fire. Marines are so few number, their shots should count

@gregsmw 12 күн бұрын

@@wolfgangstallionmusic5639 could be just "against targets with a save of 4+ or greater increase the ap of this weapon by 1"

@arn1345 12 күн бұрын

@@wolfgangstallionmusic5639 That's not ideal considering many other factions have boltgun or boltgun derivatives.

@TheRealDeadRock 12 күн бұрын

Bolter, Bolt Gun, Bolt Rifle, Heavy Bolter, Hurricane Bolter, Stalker Bolt Rifle, Auto Bolt Rifle, Twin Bolt Rifle, Storm Bolter, Twin Heavy Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet, Assault Bolter, Bolt Sniper Rifle, Instigator Bolt Carbine, Combi Bolter, and the Master Crafted varieties of many of the above, TO NAME A FEW

@mintw4241 12 күн бұрын

Boltguns suffered terribly from scope and defense creep. Orks and guardsmen didnt used to get a save against boltguns caught in the open at all, now orks are T5(!) and get their full save.

@MissZencefil 12 күн бұрын

and behind a cover they are shrugging off bolters like crazy.

@keyanklupacs6333 12 күн бұрын

Orks being t5 and the hordes of 2 wound models is insane. Also just the number if elite units that are all t6+ is waaaay more than there were a while back.

@jessedefrancisco1410 12 күн бұрын

I'm fine with us being t5.(it's for nobs so it makes sense) I hate that they messed up our shooting lot tho...... it should be high volume low damage and shootas and really any gun for orks are worthless.....being a bad moon player im not happy... Plus the push to buy like one ot two models but a horde of them and characters that cost 50$ is insane.

@jessedefrancisco1410 12 күн бұрын

I miss 9th so much guys....

@jessedefrancisco1410 12 күн бұрын

As a drukhari main I am.terrified for their dex to drop.....the amount I spent on getting real court models and grotesques and mandrake before the killteam.....if they take my tantalus I'll be pissed

@roryokane5907 12 күн бұрын

Yes. The fact that they’re not rapid fire is absolutely mental. For those of us who grew up with 3rd-7th edition, the idea that flak armour is proof against bolter fire is just mind blowing.

@MissZencefil 12 күн бұрын

Agree, bolter is *the rapid fire* weapon. AP-1 or Rapid Fire 1 wouldn't hurt the meta.

@blackfocker3727 12 күн бұрын

Agreed, the AP system that was used in 3rd through 7th editions and is used in Horus Heresy is the better system. And this is a hill that I will fight and die on for all of the remaining years of Warhammer 40k.

@BenHyle 12 күн бұрын

Even in 2e, flak armor was basically worthless against bolters.

@bitemytail 12 күн бұрын

In 7e, Inferno Bolt Guns (carried by rubrics) were AP 3. So even power armor was useless. Now, we're AP-1.

@jessedefrancisco1410 12 күн бұрын

Sigh.. ..the good Ole days

@chronovac 12 күн бұрын

If we’re arguing lore the standard Necron warrior’s gauss flayer should be basically a plasma gun

@robbiepeacocke2465 12 күн бұрын

Yeah huge marine focus going on here

@JimH. 12 күн бұрын

@@robbiepeacocke2465 The article is literally about marines. That lends itself to a discussion about marines. 🙄

@calronkeltaran493 11 күн бұрын

@@JimH. that is true. but if you vote for improving boltguns because "muh mehrens go grrr" you also have to vote to improve everything else to be lore accurate. how about getting banshees back to chopping through SM without any counterplay? how about eldar stacking -3 to hit? what about the mentioned gauss weapons? if someone wants to play OP superhumans in power armor, check out custodes. they should fullfill this fantasy pretty well with tough models, high accuracy and strong weapons all over the board. if you want them for the SM feel, just paint them blue instead of gold

@N0-1_H3r3 10 күн бұрын

@@JimH. Yeah, but the moment the argument brings in other factions (which the video did, when mentioning other army's guns that are comparable to bolters), how those other factions are depicted becomes part of the discussion. A Shoota is basically the Ork version of the bolter. A fleshborer is basically a Tyranid bolter. They always have been. The only reason the bolter gets complaints like this is because Space Marines get the hype.

@Riddler_von 11 күн бұрын

I’m old school 40K and the introduction of stormbolters and terminators was a milestone. Space Hulk was 5 terminators versus a horde of genestealers. Mowing them down. Now it’s a red rider BB gun.

@xmaracx 8 күн бұрын

Storm bolters actually feel worthless. Even worse feeling than regular bolters since theyre on godamn terminators.

@StaticSilence1 12 күн бұрын

The problem in 10th is cover is so easy to get. So even AP 1 is often cancelled out and is effectively 0.

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

thats fine thats how it should work. the problem is theres not enough ways to ignore cover (every faction should have at least one way to give a unit ignores cover). also a lot of weapons dont even have ap1 that should like bolters and gauss flayers and tau pulse rifles.

@robbiepeacocke2465 12 күн бұрын

Shooting light infantry means -1AP does still have an effect compared to no AP

@89334726 11 күн бұрын

There is so much wrong in 40k rules vs reality(fluff) when it comes to combat that bolter is on the less stupid side. You still get a way better chance of causing lethal damage to average toughness of 3 or 4 than you get with s3 lasgun. If anything it ought to have rule "Heavy3" where you treat it as one when your strength is 3 or less. No need making unit specific rules when you can go universal. And no, it is not confusing since number of shots is in weapon stats .

@mortenbrandtjensen6470 7 күн бұрын

It takes some getting used to, but alot of armies can bypass cover.

@ZibbityBoop 11 күн бұрын

Sure, make the bolter stronger. While we're at it, can we also get the 5S AP2 Necron Gauss Reaper back too? You know, the gun that literally reduces organic matter to subatomic particles?

@EmperorNapoleon1815 12 күн бұрын

Truth be told, they probably should be better, but as a Tyranids player who suffered at the hands of many a shooting Marine force in the older editions, I can’t say I’m that concerned.

@charliedavis3931 12 күн бұрын

Short answer, yes. Long answer, it would really depend on the ruleset. To be honest it does take me out of the moment when a guardsmen unit just shrug off a unit's worth of Space Marine bolter fire. They should at least be AP 1.

@BloodBuffalo 12 күн бұрын

I play guard and they never just shrug it off. In cover it's still a 50/50 proposition. Casualties are always had.

@return4887 12 күн бұрын

@@BloodBuffalo it doesnt really do much though, 10 space marines shooting kill close to 6 guardsman if they have no cover or orders which they will almost always have, in that case its only about 4 dead guardsman from marine fire

@TheMetalPumpkin 12 күн бұрын

Necron flayers should be Ap 4 then

@charliedavis3931 12 күн бұрын

@@TheMetalPumpkin Necrons don't need anything else, lol.

@Unknown-qj9sm 12 күн бұрын

The problem is you can’t do this because they are the basic factions around which all is balanced and half the game. It would be like changing the definition of a meter and expecting it to make math simpler. Could math be simpler? Certainly. But changing a meter is going to change every other measurement and standard in the game and massively imbalance the game.

@jamesgillam6478 12 күн бұрын

Termagant fleshborers being S5 and boltguns being S4 is a bit nuts haha

@rhysbaker7456 11 күн бұрын

I think the real problem we're noticing here is that we're trying to delineate between ordinary dudes and gods using nothing but three dice rolls.

@lupticyt5016 12 күн бұрын

I feel like the intercessors bolt rifle profile is pretty good in terms of what a bolt rifle should do. Has ap1 so if not in cover chaff is on 6+ save and power armor is on 4+ save. I think a good change for me would be something like Votann had with their bolt weapons last edition. They had a different keyword/name, which was Huntr. They could do the same with bolters/bolt weapons. Maybe all bolt weapons gain ignore cover if the users stand still, or all bolt guns get to reroll 1s to wound against infantry. Bolters are supposed to be chaff destroyers by design. I feel like most people that complain about bolters have an unrealistic expectation for what they should be able to do. Not one shot tanks and heavy infantry.

@makerpunk_mkiii 12 күн бұрын

For me, Primaris have worsen the problem with bolters: because GW wanted to make so many different new units to sell they created a lot of bolt weapons variants, and they needed to be better than a standard boltgun. AP-1 and strenght 5 to all standard bolt weapons (boltgun, bolt pistol, heavy bolt pistol, etc) would be a good start. Instead of adding the rapid fire option to marines, I would add the Heavy keyword, to represent better acuracy with their main weapon. If it were for me, the Heavy bolt rifle (from heavy intercessors) would dissapear and all marines in that unit would have a heavy bolter (4 attacks instead of 3, strength 6, AP-2); or give to the heavy bolt rifle the said atributes (including damage 2) but without sustained hits and only 2 shoots, but I prefer the first option. Storm bolters should receive twin linked, so the terminator squads For SoB you get the strenght and the AP. For Imperial guard we could worsen the BS and add the heavy keyword, to represent how unwieldy they are without power armour.

@arn1345 12 күн бұрын

All the dumb special snowflake weapon variants Primaris have should just be standardized with their Imperium/Chaos equivalents.

@maxwellvonrichthofen 12 күн бұрын

I will say, making them S5 may make chainswords irrelevant as an option. If they stay S4 then chainswords stay relevant as an option with twice the number of attacks, but must get into melee to use those attacks

@makerpunk_mkiii 11 күн бұрын

@@maxwellvonrichthofen It could be, yeah, but we also need to revise points. And the problem with melee weapons already exist with reivers, for example, where they lack even the AP of chainswords. I don't think this is something that would be resolved quickly or easily, but at least some changes in that direction would be a starting point.

@altulbluo404 11 күн бұрын

@@maxwellvonrichthofen I would not be that certain chain swords on legionary /asault intercesor would still be good thanks towund rerols

@starcarft21999 12 күн бұрын

I feel like the best way to do both would be another new rule that works at half range like rapid fire or Melta, something like "Puncture X" that grants a bonus AP equal to it's X value when the target is with half range. This does make it a bit awkward when firing on mass since you'll need to roll the dice separately if all models arent within half range to gain the rule, but giving marine bolt guns "Puncture 1" would be nice

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

too complicated if you have to do that every time you fire a bolter

@starcarft21999 12 күн бұрын

@@Khobai Realistically it's not THAT complicated, you're only checking to see if you're in half the guns range or not, like with again, Rapid fire or Melta, just instead of a bonus shot or damage, it's just an AP, figure out how many in a squad are half range and roll their shots separately/different coloured dice and call it a day

@TheRealDeadRock 12 күн бұрын

Very similar to the Eldar Shuriken rules of 9th and now strat of 10th for extra AP on crits to hit.

@NeumaghAnon 11 күн бұрын

“Hey guys get in charge range of Orks and you get a whole *1* AP”

@stripeybag6977 12 күн бұрын

Okay so the Spinefist just made me again question how people with guns on their wrist or gauntlets don't get the Pistol keyword. Hell Prince Yriel apparently can't even use his eye weapon in Pistol range so how does that work?

@calronkeltaran493 11 күн бұрын

also remember if you have 1 rocket launcher in each of your hands, you can fire both with no penalty but it is impossible to fire your sidearm pistol with your rifle. game and lore or logic doesn't always make sense

@hozerius5590 12 күн бұрын

Bolt weapons still function basically the same as they did all the way back in 3rd edition, but wounds & toughness are very different in the current game. Strength 4 is fine, but maybe 2 damage would be better. The biggest problem I have is the inconsistency with which bolt weapons have AP -1 and which ones don't. Just my opinion, all bolt weapons should be S4, AP -1, I can see flexibility on 1 or 2 damage depending on the type. The fact that Storm Bolters of the Terminators are AP 0 is silly with the Bolt rifles of the Intercessors and the Heavy Bolt Pistols of the Assault Intercessors are Ap -1.

@Crooked1519 12 күн бұрын

Didnt we do this already? I remember when we made bolters stronger in 8th and 9th as part of other space marine detachments and they were curb stomping most infantry

@JimH. 12 күн бұрын

They should be.

@PepsiMagt 11 күн бұрын

@@JimH. That would make space marines into expensive glasscannons.

@brasssnacks8413 12 күн бұрын

Tau pulse rifles have gyros that make them able to shoot a fly a kilometre away. They hit on 4s. If you want to make weapons 1:1 to the lore you break the game.

@_Morph1ne_ 12 күн бұрын

All bolt weapons need AP-1. Heavy bolters need something like anti-infantry 3+ or lethal hits or something

@WolvericCatkin 12 күн бұрын

You've really got yourself on a roll this week... 😹 So many more videos than I can keep up with...

@andrewrebholz 12 күн бұрын

Even if nothing else on the profile changes, I'd love the wrist-mounted Storm Bolters on my Grey Knights get the "Pistols" keyword because what's to stop them from just punching a daemon in the face and then letting loose in melee range with something that seems like it should be unable to get caught up or disarmed in melee.

@rickkcir2151 12 күн бұрын

Boltguns in lore, not even space marine ones, are pretty much one shot one kill on a standard guardsman. They’re massive explosive shells. They should definitely have more strength, and at least -1AP.

@calronkeltaran493 11 күн бұрын

by that logic, harlequin troupe weapons should all be D3 because in lore, everyone just explodes when they got through armor. so if you improve one weapon to be lore accurate, where do you stop? you will just be back in "everyone is dead" land in no time

@theturnc0at 12 күн бұрын

I think giving bolters a generalized ap -1 would be a good call. Gives them a bit more punch without making it too oppressive

@MonoZeus 12 күн бұрын

Used to be anything with a 5+ armor save didn't get any saves! AP5 Bolters were HOT!! I guess the equivalent would be AP-2?

@robbiepeacocke2465 12 күн бұрын

@@MonoZeusand space marines used to only have one wound… everything has gotten more shots but also a bit more survivability per shot taken than they used to have, so it kind of comes out as same as the old editions

@pablofernandez9366 11 күн бұрын

@@MonoZeusno, because when bolters were ap5, all marines (imperial or chaos) would continue saving 3+ as now, all aeldari would continue saving 4+,… and, the only minis who saves at 5+, used to be low toughness so you wound on 3+. You can say that this always happened, but what we didn’t have in ancient editions was such and amount of dices to trough in each dice roll and ALSO such an amount of repetitions for hit roll, wound rolls, +1 to hit, +1 to wound,…

@cruelmole 12 күн бұрын

Ap 1 lethal hits feels appropriate. A well placed bolter round can threaten taking a few chunks out of armour but they arent going to tear heavy tanks apart

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

ap1 sure but i dont see the rationale behind lethal hits. especially when they get lethal hits from the lieutenant. that just makes him worthless.

@cruelmole 12 күн бұрын

@@Khobai they're armour piercing grenades... Also in gameplay it would let them threaten heavier targets a little more without them being the most efficient method of doing so.

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

@@cruelmole theyre not. the krak grenade launchers are actually armor piercing grenades and they dont get lethal hits. bolters definitely shouldnt. the lieutenant gives you lethal hits if you want it thats fine.

@TheLongVigil 12 күн бұрын

Lethal hits is easily attainable on its own with a Lieutenant which is a pretty cheap character attachment, but the problem is still 0 ap honestly. Cover is so ridiculously easy to get in 10th that even the regular AP -1 of my heavy intercessors Heavy bolt rifles feel like a wet noodle. Yeah they are Str5 but if someone even has a pinky toe in cover, its still just an AP 0 D1 Boltgun. Ignores cover could be cool though, since those bolt rounds have been shown to tear through most cover in the lore.

@cruelmole 12 күн бұрын

@@TheLongVigil nobody is attaching a Ltn to intercessors or a tactical squad...

@user-lp4hu8mo9k 12 күн бұрын

I feel like a good “general” bolter profile would be a modified mix of the Bolt Rifle and the 1k sons Icon of Flame ability. That gives the Bolter 24” range, assault, 2 shots, 3+ hit, AP -1, D 1, but if a crit is scored, improve the AP & damage by 1. Just my 2 cents on the matter

@MothMan-jl3qh 12 күн бұрын

Could introduce rules that make them better against soft targets. Anti-infantry, or something that raises AP against low-T units, etc.

@Grimdankgames 12 күн бұрын

People talking about how powerful bolters are like Gauss weaponry doesn't just dissolve things. So all Gauss should be AP3

@robbiepeacocke2465 12 күн бұрын

100%, if we fully followed the lore then horde armies literally won’t fit in a deployment zone. Already an issue if you have 100 or so models in a mixed list today!

@laurencemusolino 12 күн бұрын

Agreed. If some of these players desires were satisfied I can only imagine how ridiculous a Custodes vs Guard match would be. Realistically in order for the game to be enjoyed every army needs its highlights and needs its powerful and cool aspects. That means the lore must be ignored so that a squad of aberrants can be charged into terminators in order to claim an objective. I sometimes question how many of the people who talk about enhancing armies to make them more lore accurate actually play the tabletop games. For me just from playing the tabletop I have more than enough experience to know what it is like to be both the strong army and the weak army and I would hate it for any player to be stuck with a whole army with cheap and unimpressive units just to ensure some Space Marines players could feel powerful crushing their opponents.

@calronkeltaran493 11 күн бұрын

finaly someone with sense. yes if we improve bolters to be lore accurate, where do we stop? like you said necron weapons desintegrate your body. harlequin weapons turn you into paste inside your armor, so they all should have D3. all eldar need inherit -1 to hit while being able to stack -hit modifiers. stacking - to hit should also be a given in general. the thought of a trooper with a heavy gun sprinting down the line, is still able to fire his weapon accuratly through a window 20m away to hit a fighterjet though it, who is just passing by in mach 3 speed is totaly unrealistic. if we go by lore power, we would have an entirely different game. some armies like guard or tyranids are impossible to play unless you are a millionäre. custodes or harlequin players basicly only need like 5 models, who will just plow through anything. totally fun times

@robbiepeacocke2465 11 күн бұрын

@@calronkeltaran493 the upsizing and upscaling of everything isn’t helping too… screamer-killers and psychophages are on bases that are too big, and gaunts and genestealers all have bigger bases than they used to… so a lore accurate 300 model (monster and little guy) 2000pt nid swarm wouldn’t fit on any table today. I’m used to 3rd/4th ed where most things were on 25mm bases and table was 72”x48”, not 60”x44”

@weissraben4476 10 күн бұрын

@@calronkeltaran493 I mean, lore-wise the humble Leman Russ is armored with 8" of cast plasteel, and an impact strong enough to slam it several meters sideways (all 60 tons of it) can't even penetrate its weaker side armor. Lore is often silly and written for a big "WHOA" feeling, and shouldn't quite be followed by the letter when writing rule for a game both sides enjoy.

@Apollon548 12 күн бұрын

It's a real fun thought experiment to consider what stats you'd need to give CSM legionary bolters to make it worth running them with guns rather than chainswords between all the stat issues & the Legionary rule being melee only. I genuinely don't know how high they'd be willing to go and still have it be a question you'd actually consider.

@sebastianhovenas272 4 күн бұрын

Ork shootas usually have a higher rate of fire than standard boltguns, not to mention that space marines probably wouldn't fire full auto at most times. This is why shootas have more shots, don't really see a problem there

@BurnByMoonlight 12 күн бұрын

At least my Bolters mow down other space marines in HH *laughs in Stormwing Tactical blobs*

@MasterNinja57 12 күн бұрын

Remember when they were strength 4 and had an ap value of 5+?

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

they were also A1 and rapid fire 1 which sucked. Theyre actually way better now with A2, even with AP0.

@RJALEXANDER777 12 күн бұрын

A modified version of that where AP decides which models get a save would be pretty ideal. Space Marines should still roll a 3+ against bolters, but things like guard would have to rely on toughness/cover alone and obviously be far more vulnerable for it.

@WalecznyChasyd 12 күн бұрын

I swear most of the issues with weapon profiles and toughness creep come from ditching the old armour piercing system. When AP was all or nothing, the breakpoints defined the purpose of each gun. Boltgun AP 5+ was great for shooting orks, meh into everything else. Power swords and plasma killed marines - and so did inferno boltguns on rubrics! Melta and Lascannons could penetrate terminators and Land Raiders. The change to an AP modifier system basically ruined the durability of 2+/3+ armour, and ever since GW have had to inflate the Toughness and Wounds of all elite models, hand out invulns like candy and generally escalate the arms race, as any gun which reliably kills a guardsman now (AP-2) also happens to do triple damage to the best armour in the game. And because of uneven power creep this makes certain weapons feel horrible, like bolters putting out lasgun damage or Melta wounding tanks on 5s.

@blackfocker3727 12 күн бұрын

@@WalecznyChasyd I fully agree. The AP system from 3rd through 7th editions (which is the system used in Horus Heresy) is the vastly superior system and would eliminate ALL of the issues with toughness that have existed in 40k since 8th edition.

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

@@WalecznyChasyd part of the problem also comes from ditching the old S vs T table. It makes it so S3 and S4 weapons are basically the same against T5. but that didnt used to be the case. It used to be S4 hit T5 on 5+ and S3 hit T5 on 6+. Whereas now the fact that bolters are S4 basically has no meaning since virtually everything is T5 or higher these days. A bolter just feels the same as a lasgun as a result.

@AiloDyerRamberg 3 күн бұрын

A cool rule would be giving boltguns critical wounds. I feel like that represents the boltgun a little better.

@WilhelmScreamer 12 күн бұрын

The cascading effects of such a buff would drive madness

@jjaarr3208 12 күн бұрын

Given space marines bolter discipline if the unit stays still and fires just as it has in the past it should not only get rapid fire, but the player should have the choice of adding +1 st, -1 ap, or an additional shot. This would represent space marine skill more lore accurately. Chapters like Ultra Marines should have even extra utility with it like the ability to fall back and shoot, etc.

@MichaelGoldsberry-jd1sx 11 күн бұрын

While I like the idea, the last thing most players need is a choice where the obvious answer is right in front of them but they won't be able to identify it and will agonize over it for 3-4 minutes before shooting.

@MrPooler11 12 күн бұрын

As a son of Dorn, I’d have to say yes

@profsrlojohn635 12 күн бұрын

I think some of the issue is that the boltgun has been depreciated significantly. Back when the modern bolter statline of rapid-fire, S4 AP- was invented, 3rd, basically the only thing that was S4 were marines, necrons, certain nids and specific other units like crisis suits or wraith guard. Back then, wounding on 3s on most infantry was significant. Now though, the amount of standard T4-or better has increased significantly, both due to new factions, and even more marines. Meaning what was the top dogs is now just kinda meh

@GuardsmanDale 12 күн бұрын

Bolters being too weak is a point I've been hearing since the start of 8th

@Kingofdragons117 12 күн бұрын

I feel like if Terminator Stormbolters had AP or something else, they would stand out more.

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

if stormbolters had AP1 and pistol they would be pretty decent. theres no reason terminators shouldnt be able to use stormbolters like pistols especially since they dont have pistols.

@Michaelkayslay 12 күн бұрын

Terminators can't actually Terminate. They are weak af

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

@@Michaelkayslay they terminate pretty good in melee just not at range.

@Michaelkayslay 12 күн бұрын

@@Khobai terminators should be good at range. Assault in melee . It's a crime ranged terminators are absolutely crap at shooting

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

@@Michaelkayslay like i said they should have ap1 and pistol on stormbolters. they dont need to be amazing at shooting just a little better.

@RJALEXANDER777 12 күн бұрын

To me personally Heavy Intercessors represent how basic Space Marines should feel. But if you really wanna go high end lore-wise you can use Custodes profiles for house rules.

@cas4611 12 күн бұрын

Custodes stats for shorting is sub par, it’s neigh the same stat as the marine

@XHobbiesPrime 12 күн бұрын

I agree, Heavy Intercessors represent how Space Marines are represented in the lore.

@ANDELE3025 12 күн бұрын

Nah, the issue is there is not enough of the chaff is T1-2 with natural 7+ save. Because if we go by lore scaling from current chaff stats, while a marine might have custodes datasheet equivalent, almost all necrons would have AP -6 to AP -14 and things like hive tyrant would have the stats of a imperial knight lancer while the swarmlord warlord titan (remember, the motherfucker cut through multiple baneblades and ork meks like they were warm butter).

@PepsiMagt 11 күн бұрын

@@ANDELE3025sure, but then you would need to play against 250 boyz ork armies or 350 guardsman. It's a neat power fantasy, but bad for the game.

@JaySharp604 12 күн бұрын

Changing the bolter would have a ripple affect throughout the game. Changing them to strength 5 would make you need to change the Heavy Bolter, and the Assault Cannon, plus every Intercessors weapon. Changing the bolter to rapid fire 1 would demand the storm bolter be changed. As it's merely 1 extra shot at 12". maybe twin link the stormbolter? (might be the way to go) Rapid fire 1 for bolters. Boltrifles are assault/heavy, and ap1. Or just make Bolters AP1.

@seraphim7179 11 күн бұрын

Just give bolt weapons 1 additional AP. Done

@smallbarns 10 күн бұрын

Sustained hits 2 on Inceptor Bolters has demonstrated what needed to be done to make them competitive against other profiles, even one as good as the Plasmas

@OmegaLittleBob 12 күн бұрын

Feels like Bolt Rifles should wound light infantry like Guard, Cultists and Gaunts on a 2+ as if it were strength 6. But then Str 6 would make them too good against something like Terminators etc. Its a weird problem.

@xeroprotagonist 12 күн бұрын

Maybe they should make standard human-tier toughness 2 instead of 3? So S4 weapons could mow down horde units wounding on a 2+ but won't have an easier time wounding tanks and monsters. That plus giving them AP 1 would dramatically boost their effectiveness against light units without unbalancing them too much against anything else.

@bensemusx 12 күн бұрын

In the old S vs T each point of S above the target toughness was important. Now all points above are equal until you reach double. GW needs to use a wider toughness range with this system to allow a wider S range. They made improvements in 10E but I think they need to do more. Or go back to the older, more granular, system.

@tajj7 11 күн бұрын

Think that is where keywords could help, you could have like a 'light infantry' keyword, and then apply that to like orks, guard, cultists, eldar etc. and then have the bolter 'anti-light infantry 2+'. I do think bolters generally should be AP1 across the board, with the heavier options maybe having AP2, AP0 Bolters and storm bolters and AP1 Heavy bolters just feel very weak. Guard units being able to save on 4s with take cover (and cover) against heavy bolters or even some guard units being able to save on 3s against bolters just feels completely off.

@MacThunder. 12 күн бұрын

I think boltguns being 2 Attacks 4strength 0Ap 1damage is a crime

@Jerry2die4 12 күн бұрын

I just call that "Gun" Statline

@MacThunder. 12 күн бұрын

Yeah but at least more ap than a lasgun man.

@BloodBuffalo 12 күн бұрын

Isn't an intercessor bolt gun ap -1

@MacThunder. 12 күн бұрын

My excuse to GW is that I own to many tactical and devastador squads to go back now

@mrcaterpillow9926 12 күн бұрын

@@BloodBuffalo Intercessor uses Bolt "Rifles" not Boltguns. I know that sounds incredibly stupid but that is how it is in game.

@Doc_Ginger 11 күн бұрын

Anecdote time: Brought my Deathwatch out to my casual gaming group which otherwise doesn't have any SM players, and they were genuinely actually surprised at how anemic getting shot at with bolters was. When even the Tau player isn't worried about a full squad of Deathwatch enhanced bolters firing at them in the open your base weapon is probably a joke.

@David-mx1os 11 күн бұрын

Maybe they should just add a keyword for bolt weapons where crits to hit get +1 to wound, and crits to wound get an additional -1 to save rolls? A small bonus that's not lethal hits or devastating wounds but applies to both rolls.

@andrewnewell1142 12 күн бұрын

I think a lot of lore problems would be solved by moving to d12s

@BloodBuffalo 12 күн бұрын

Yeah I don't think people realize how limiting D6 is when they complain about granularity

@anthonywarne9751 12 күн бұрын

I like that idea!! Would allow for so much more deviation. Could everything move to 2D6 instead so people wouldn’t have to buy a whole new collection of dice? We already do it with leadership..

@Trazynn 12 күн бұрын

Good point. And just to be clear 2D6 is not the same as 1D12. A 2D6 results in a bell curve and a D12 has even odds for each number.

@alternateaccount6913 12 күн бұрын

the problem is that 40k requires a massive number of dice rolls and its a LOT easier to get a large number of d6s over d12s

@anthonywarne9751 12 күн бұрын

@@Trazynn right, of course, duh! I like the idea, don’t really want to buy 60 new D12 dice but if it helps the game then so be it haha

@JasoniusRexington 12 күн бұрын

Yes, PLEASE! I like Imperial Fists and Grey Knights particularly cuz I think the holy bolter is one of the most storied and coolest weapons in the game. I'm sad it's been relegated to anti-chaff unit this edition. I'm not saying all bolters need S10, D3 or whatever, but I would like to see more variety, light bolters specializing in taking down harder targets, like possibly rhinos or elite infantry. Bolter of infantry I'd like to see stronger but also doesn't need to be OP to be awesome

@citizenrico42 12 күн бұрын

I am reminded of when I started and xenos units were referred to as GEQ, MEQ, and TEQ.

@ALunny 12 күн бұрын

In 9th edition, if CSM are tzeentch follows they improve range weopens AP by 1, if they carry an icon. You could stack this with a stratagem to increase boltgun range to 30" and AP 2. Finally if you took rubics marines as an ally, you could buff them to be AP 4.

@sagebrown5643 12 күн бұрын

I don't think so. Things were deliberately made less lethal in tenth, so it's only natural that they don't do too much. Plus, basically all weapons in 40k are said to be these insane instruments of war, so bolters aren't too special. With that said though, it is weird that they are so close to las guns and auto guns

@knuckl6972 12 күн бұрын

It should be ap-1, with 2 shots but still with rapid fire 1

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

no they shouldnt have 3 shots. that outshoots tau. no faction should outshoot tau because thats literally all tau are the best at. should definitely be 2 shots max.

@knuckl6972 12 күн бұрын

@@Khobai but tau also get longer range and higher strength

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

@@knuckl6972 no they dont breachers get 10". they also have to pay for a character to get the third shot and are limited to 3 characters. you want EVERY space marine bolter unit to get 3 shots at 12" without even having to take a character. plus space marines can get lethal hits on top of that with a lieutenant. yes breachers have higher S but they also die to a stiff breeze. Youre basically saying you want space marines to have shooting thats close to as good or as good as tau while also being good in melee and more survivable at the same time. why even play tau at that point?

@knuckl6972 12 күн бұрын

@@Khobai yes I do, honestly 3 shots at strength 4 AP 1 is not a big deal at all, and it helps to make marines feel on the tabletop like they do in lore Bolt rifles get ap1 as well as both assault and heavy, so an extra shot and extra ap would both make normal boltguns stand up to bolt rifles, and give units like tactical squads and Legionnaires a bit more ranged prowess in a game that so often favours the shooting phase

@djc1376 10 күн бұрын

Bolters do dev wounds on a 6 easy all types

@TheSoijohn 11 күн бұрын

adding special rules like (like : if space marines, rapid fire also adds +1 ap or S at half range ) seem like an adequate answer to buff it according to fluff and faction and with modularity

@aidanfedorochko3728 12 күн бұрын

I think Bolters should be statted different based on factions and minor differences. Like how inferno Bolters are for TS. Also it seems weird chaos bolt guns and bolt rifles are now roughly on even terrain when in previous editions Primaris bolt weapons were stat out as stronger.

@cblack04_92 12 күн бұрын

aren't they still stronger. bolt rifles are assault and heavy while also being -1 ap. chaos space marine bolters are the same as tac marine bolters

@C0ldramen 12 күн бұрын

The chaos bolt gun has the same stat line as the generic bolter. I feel like just giving all bolt gun’s an ap-1 would be good. Not make it too strong, but add more of a punch. But then it would have the same stats as tsons, so that would need some other keyword to make it still stand out and represent the strength of siding with one specific chaos god.

@arn1345 12 күн бұрын

@@C0ldramen Lethal hits or dev wounds for TSons. Pretty easy.

@JimH. 12 күн бұрын

@@arn1345 Yes, let's give one of the top 4 armies devastating wounds on all it's bolters. That shouldn't affect balance at all...

@DrakonPhD 12 күн бұрын

I feel like all space marine statlines need an increase. Marines suffer from them always being T4, S4, Bolters being S4 (and especially terminator storm bolters), thats just how it always was. It used to be decently high, but with stat creep marines are now both squishy and weak, with orks being T5 and most weapons being s4/5, with a ton of D2 weapons as well. But yes, bolters should be Ap-1 base, with bolt rifles S5 base

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

the problem is more that they made things T5 that shouldnt be like ork boyz. now space marines look bad by comparison because ork boyz are T5. they need to bring the T of a lot of T5 units back down to T4. Then S4 on bolters would matter again.

@robbiepeacocke2465 12 күн бұрын

Marines now have two wounds and ork boyz still have one so it kind of works out the same as back then

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

@@robbiepeacocke2465 it doesnt because the amount of 2-3 damage weapons in the meta. T4 W2 ends up being effectively the same as T5 W1 when every weapon is S6+ D2+. When I play tau I mostly run weapons like missile pod crisis suits or heavy burst cannon riptides because they kill marines just as effectively as green tide.

@kristofpolgar7627 10 күн бұрын

With Bolter Discipline I found bolters surprisingly good during 9th edition, as I played a lot of bikes and termies (yes DA, why do you ask?). With the introduction of weapon abilities they could have given a bit of extra to bolters, like [sustained 1] or [rapid fire 1]. Volume of shots can hit like a truck even with bolters. Also, there's one weapon ability I miss from the 10ed bunch: adding an extra AP for nat 6s to wound, let's call it [penetrating X].

@guysolomon7904 12 күн бұрын

I quite like Votann bolt cannons. Thunderkyn with bolt cannons are great for holding deployment areas with long range, S6 and overwatch on 5's and Hekatons get twin linked and ignore cover on theirs which is extremely effective in many targets

@CrazyBlitzwing 12 күн бұрын

YES! Bolters are guns that fire rocket-propelled fragmentation grenades that blow enemies up from inside out. And yet they have as much punch in game as a lasgun, and they've never depicted the explosive fire outside of the books and other written lore.

@calronkeltaran493 11 күн бұрын

necron ghaus weapons desintegrate anything they hit and still AP 0, D1. so what is the point here? if we improve every weapon to be lore accurate in power, those units would still see no play, because they suddenly die instantly to everything

@blubrittingham6985 12 күн бұрын

I think honestly just making the standard 2 Attacks, 5 Strength, AP -1, Damage 1, and make that the Bolter statline for all Space Marine factions, Loyalist and Traitor, makes the most sense to me. Never was satisfied with the idea that Primaris Bolters are somehow just better than demonic ones.

@jamesygamesy5124 12 күн бұрын

no thats way to strong for a 17 point model

@maverikmiller6746 10 күн бұрын

"Weird that it is arguably the superior weapon if they could shoot it straight ! " Thank you Sir for this sentence. :)

@Mythantor 11 күн бұрын

As a sisters player I feel the pain. When playing the last few turns of a game at my local club, if we are pressed for time before closing I often just end up skipping firing my bolters because they just dont do anything to make it worth it.

@HaveAVindicare 12 күн бұрын

The whole Toughness scale needs reworking. There is no need to have nothing before T3. Or you know, use a bigger dice since we have a scale from sentient fungus toad to world ending titan.

@renimusmaximus 12 күн бұрын

If the boltgun gets a buff, I am gonna need a buff to my long nerfed pulse rifles. S-5 Ap-0 on them makes them all but useless and people still claim that Kroot are better than the strike team. I dont want to ruin kroot I just want my most iconic weapon for the tau infantry to actually be used instead of your 8th Breacher fish.

@UnprovenAssumptions 10 күн бұрын

Interestingly, it was a lore blob for a Bolter that initially sold me on this game back in 7th edition. The paragraph before it was describing the auto guns used by chaos cultists. Self maintaining armor piercing automatic weapons with aim assist. I remember saying to myself, out loud “Wow, how are you supposed to beat something like that?” And then I read the description of the Bolter.

@gabrielegranocchia 8 күн бұрын

+1S , to all bolter weapons Non-Pistol. +1 AP too, but may be too much. Fun idea: +6" to go to 30" and a [BOLTER] keyword that gives +1S a +1AP at half range.

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

they should make boltguns really good so everyone buys first born marines. then they should just phase them out when the 11th edition space marine codex comes out. Like they did with Tetras.

@ivanivanovic5586 11 күн бұрын

I'd do it like this - standard (.75cal or 20×50mm) bolt stuff(marines, battle sisters, guard, etc) all to be s4 ap-1(all variants), primaris(.88cal or 23×75mm) stuff(bolt rifle, heavy bolt rifle, heavy bolt pistol(including absolvor and special issue in this category)) as s5 ap-1, and heavies(.100cal or 25×100mm) such as bolt sniper rifle and heavy bolter to s6 ap-1.

@eiskalteshandchen9036 11 күн бұрын

Guess there are many possible solutions. A overall special rule like "sustained hits +1 / + 1to wound/+1 AP vs targets with lower T than S" would work. But tbh, I have my doubt bolters will get good any time soon

@Desm0708 11 күн бұрын

I don’t think something’s power in the lore should have that much impact on its power in the game. However, as my friend loves to remind me, the Tachyon Arrow is able to one-shot titans but in game isn’t even able to one shot a Rhino.

@imadequate3376 12 күн бұрын

They do 1 damage more than a fucking lasgun. As a guard player I legitimately feel bad for friends playing space marines and realizing the lore and TTG don't match up. Boltguns should get AP-1 or AP-2 and maybe an additional damage point as well.

@albertosanchez5384 11 күн бұрын

Never feel bad for a SM player.

@imadequate3376 11 күн бұрын

@albertosanchez5384 why? Most SM factions are pretty mids to outright garbage.

@PepsiMagt 11 күн бұрын

With that kind of damage output they would need a hefty point increase, which would make them into fragile glasscannons. Be careful what you wish for

@albertosanchez5384 11 күн бұрын

@@imadequate3376 They are one of the main reasons the xenos factions have models dated AF. Space marines centrism wouldn't be a thing with out SM players. The worst the faction performs the best for the game.

@imadequate3376 11 күн бұрын

@PepsiMagt no they wouldn't. Look at like Nids and like Necrons and look at their base infantry's weapon damage AND weapon abilities. Not only is it cheaper to field those other units in other armies, but their guns have about the same or better base weapon stats than a space marines bolt gun AND they normally also have a weapon ability when SMs do not. The space marines cost shouldn't go up by much if any. Most armies field more infantry type units than space marines for a lower cost yet some have better weapons. So they either need a nerf on those hoard armies with space marine level weapons or space marines need a buff. Like a hoard army with primary weapons on par with a bolt gun and normally technically better is pretty wild and sets SM guys up to lose. It's why my "Parking Lot" guard list absolutely trounces SM guys even my infantry spam is brutal. They outright aren't represented on table top in anyway that has any faith to the lore.

@16psyco 11 күн бұрын

my idea for the bolter, add : +1S (the bolter was made to kill orks, so at least having the same S vs T of it's primary designed target) and add 1 additional shot.

@TuShan18 12 күн бұрын

Something I’ve been wanting since 9th is boltguns getting an extra shot on 6s because they are meant to explode when hitting the target. Maybe adding an extra strength and ap, as well as either lethal or sustained hits to all standard boltguns would make them a good standard issue choice.

@C454D 12 күн бұрын

To be honest...still think it crazy orks have just stat crept up like crazy so quickly. They USED to be strength 3 and toughness 4 base (and they got +1S on the charge) but now they just raw have strength 4 (5 if you are a beast boy) and Toughness 5 by default. These xenos are apparently MORE resilient than super humans and can apparently take a punch from what is largely considered Super-Human strength. Maybe just an issue with some stats needing worked out. For me, maybe just create a "bolt" special rule: weapons with this trait re-roll wound rolls of 1. Not a MASSIVE power boost but does give a little air of consistency.

@Boltscrap 12 күн бұрын

Orks have been working out.

@XHobbiesPrime 12 күн бұрын

Ork stat creep is one of the reasons I first though Space Marine players should start using a lot more Gravis armor. Normal MEQ seem puny now compared to Orks and other enemies.

@jessedefrancisco1410 12 күн бұрын

NOBZ HAVE T5 NOT BOYZ

@C454D 12 күн бұрын

@@jessedefrancisco1410 No, Boyz have T5 now and even a 5+ save.

@robbiepeacocke2465 12 күн бұрын

Everyone’s forgetting that compared to older editions, marines have twice as many wounds (or three times as many for termies and bikes) while basic infantry for all xenos and guard are pretty much all still 1 wound

@willhull9839 12 күн бұрын

Just yes. The facts that everyone's basic wepon hits harder then a marines is a pain. Even though they are feared in the universe

@stephendarkman576 12 күн бұрын

Say that to guardsmen with lasguns...

@arn1345 12 күн бұрын

That tracks. Literally every other Xenos faction has more advanced tech than the Imperium/Chaos. Chaos has warp juice shenanigans. Boltguns should probably still be several steps more powerful than an autogun though.

@firestarr5812 12 күн бұрын

@@stephendarkman576 I mean, right now guardsmen with lasguns can get lethal hits when they remain stationary, (which is huge for punching up into light or even heavy vehicles) orders for extra shots, better hit chances... In my opinion, the lasguns of imperial guard can often be BETTER than bolters on tactical marines and legionaries.

@stephendarkman576 11 күн бұрын

@@firestarr5812 Sure, but hey, you can also empower your bolter with strats, abilities, etc. One per one comparison make your bolter look better. But I totally agree that this legendary weapon is underwhelming as per the rules, no arguing about that!

@firestarr5812 11 күн бұрын

@@stephendarkman576 That’s true! With the rights buffs the bolter can become quite respectable.

@Scotty86doo 12 күн бұрын

I think this is where if GW was to explore using D8's or other dice they can have more notches to ratchet up the power levels on stats (I know it wont happen...) Its a cool feature of Star Wars Legion using the 3 colors of D8's in their game.

@le3299ify 11 күн бұрын

I remember last time we had this talk leding to bolter disipline

@akumaking1 12 күн бұрын

Nobody at Games Workshop has a proper concept of balance and lore.

@augusttorngrenwartin 12 күн бұрын

Boltguns should be 2 Attacks, 6 Strenght, AP-2, D2. Marines should have 3 or 4 wounds. And double the points cost of marines.

@christophbloch7169 12 күн бұрын

have fun with adjusting the rules of all the other factions because of this

@clique7386 12 күн бұрын

Sure, and double the points

@augusttorngrenwartin 12 күн бұрын

@@christophbloch7169 Why not just increase the points cost of marines?

@augusttorngrenwartin 12 күн бұрын

@@clique7386 Exactly! Double the points!

@Khobai 12 күн бұрын

and they should be able to vomit acid.

@erih2934 11 күн бұрын

I've added AP1 to all firstborn bolters-type (pistols, boltguns, storm/combi-bolter and heavy bolters). Also +1 AP to TS inferno variants.

@andrewgibson4726 12 күн бұрын

I'd personally say an extra -1ap for all bolter family, +1 Str, shot and sustain on heavy. Deathguard should get [pistol] keyword to mimic old true grit or a army rule bolter as 1 shot pistol

@sammacintyre1351 11 күн бұрын

The Primaris Bolt Rifle is basically what the Boltgun should be. The only thing I'd consider changing would be removing the HEAVY Keyworld and giving it either ANTI-INFANTRY or some kind of reroll to wound against infantry specifically. Make them more reliable at killing infantry rather than simply more lethal overall. They're supposed to be workhorse weapons with a lot of stopping power. There's a reason why Astartes of all stripes have kept using them for 10,000 years.

@marcusmayfield4973 11 күн бұрын

Here is a novel idea, we have keywords for every unit in the game, give weapons such as bolters, a bonus to strength, penetration, and / or damage against models and units with the infantry keyword. Could do the same with heavy bolters against non titanic monsters and vehicles etc. This is really not a difficult thing and I don't see why it hasn't been done.

@tajj7 11 күн бұрын

IMO they should at least be rapid fire, across all variants IMO, like bolters, bolt rifles, bolt carbines should all have rapid fire 1. Heavy Bolters should be S6, that would make them a lot more usable, wounding orks or termis on 3s, Custodes on 6 and T10 vehicles on 5s. The other one that is really bad is storm bolters, the standard weapon of almost all terminator squad just sucks, think at the very least those should be 3 shots and rapid fire 3. I also think every bolter version should be AP1 and like the heavy bolters and heavy bolt rifles should maybe be AP2, especially how easy it is to get cover to basically any shooting AP you look at, most of the time it is -1

@PepsiMagt 11 күн бұрын

With that kind of damage output they would need a hefty point increase, which would make SM into fragile glasscannons. Be careful what you wish for

@BronzeRivet 12 күн бұрын

TAngent, but connected to the insight about depictions in lore, I think that the emphasis on how the behaves in lore is part of why the Astartes short film was so cool.

@zoro88h 11 күн бұрын

Give it a rule where it can choose a different weapon rule at the begining of each turn (like pistol in a turn you gonna charge or blast when targeting hordes)

@alexsolomon7829 9 күн бұрын

10th edition presents an opportunity to represent the massive range of effectiveness/usefulness of bolter weapons and I really feel like it was a missed opportunity. Assault, Heavy, and Rapid Fire on a S4 AP -1 standard infantry bolt weapons and then for specific units (Sternguard, Tactical Squads, Aggressors, etc. have a unique weapon profile and/or potentially a special rule that lets you select a rule to add to the bolter profile like Ignores Cover, Sustained Hits, Lethal Hits, Anti-Infantry, Precision, etc. selected the first time the unit is selected to shoot and lasts the rest of the game. Detachments, leaders, and special characters could even enhance or change these effects. I wouldn’t even care if it was just for Deathwatch (or the Codex compliant chapters).

@tallen2009 6 күн бұрын

When in doubt, add more keywords. Give SM/CSM bolters D3 shots with blast.

@ViciousSkittle 11 күн бұрын

I think rules bloat could be an issue to make every weapon feel better, but it's the damn Bolter. It should be the linch pin for Astarte units.

@N0-1_H3r3 10 күн бұрын

Thing is, Ork Shootas and Tyranid Fleshborers are similar to Bolters not because Bolters are weak, but because Shootas and Fleshborers _are meant to be_ Xenos counterparts to the Bolter: Orks had Bolters in 1st and 2nd edition 40k, and Shootas were nearly-identical to bolters from 3rd edition. Tyranids used bolters in 1st edition (because everyone used the same weapons list, but tyranids were said to use biomechanical versions of the same tech), and Fleshborers were _always_ similarly-powerful to a bolter, albeit with a shorter range. But, because everyone has a hard-on for bolters in the lore, people are unwilling to accept that other factions might have standard rifles that are comparable to 'the holy bolter'.

@Vinterloft 11 күн бұрын

The problem is, if you buff the boltgun a little, you have to buff the gauss weapons and the pulse rifles a lot. It's an endless cascade of buffs to preserve the hierarchy

@claytonleal7947 12 күн бұрын

i feel like anti-infantry is the answer to "we want the mainstay gun to be good at what its good at but bad at chip dmg" if they wanna get cute though then give the bigger space marine version buffs depending on which faction is using them. like if they want to make the types of bolters themed then just list that factions bolter profile under their army rule. lore wise its already sorta "this faction does X to its gear" so saying ultramarines get assault, chaos get -1AP so on and so forth would be thematic, flavorful and allow you to balance each factions units around the power level of their bolter profile + army rule which seems healthier then what it is right now... apparently a whiteboard in GW headquarters that just says "keep them buying stuff"

@alphachurch01 12 күн бұрын

This problem is why I have been saying they need to move away from a d6 system to either a d10 or d12. Give them better finer tuned saves which lets them fine tune ap as well so guns fit where they should

@mattomckinnon 12 күн бұрын

I used to feel like they did nothing but now I like them in 10th edition they feel balanced with the intercessors and having characters giving lethal hits and sustain hits gives your marine that much more of a punch.