Servants yes, office listed in 1 Tim 3 no

Greatly appreciate this explanation and I agree wholeheartedly!

I agree with Douglas Wilson's interpretation of this passage. The offices within the local Church are twofold, Elders and Deacons; both are to be held by men only. There is a third office also, but not in the same sense of the Elders and Deacons of the Church. That office is of the widow or the Deaconess, which I believe is mentioned in 1 Timothy 3:11 and qualified in 1 Timothy 5:9-12.

In English, every old person (man and woman) is an “elder” but not every old person is in the office of “elder”

Greatly appreciate that you give the short answer first and then explain, rather than 20 minutes of reasoning followed with the answer. Because Acts 6 is the ONLY description of the ordination of deacons, it is by good and necessary consequence prescriptive.

Great interaction with their arguments. I’d add Romans 13:4 to the counter to Phoebe being a “deacon “ in the church. Their argument that she is because the word is used is lost when you bring up Romans 13:4.

That was helpful, I held that position prior to doing a research paper on “can a women be a deacon in the church” meaning the office, and I got bombarded with all of the other “stuff” and fluff about it that I was getting actually confused by all of the other opinions. Thanks for clarifying, that’s why I searched out a video

I look forward to watching this. Thank you for the things you've been talking about brother the content has definitely been a blessing to me.

13:28 "So everyone, in biblical terms, is a deacon. They're just not in the office." Well said! 😃

My mom got ordained as a deacon, so many times over the years. I should find a way to talk to her. My local church (which I grew up in) in Thailand was and is run by feminists, our senior pastor is female.

Seems like a very sensible interpretation.

I think the desire for women to become deacons is one more step towards elder. In some SBC churches, the line between elder and deacon is blurred. Some deacons have all the 'power' of an elder but women teach them on Sundays. Which one do you want, the job or the title?

So here's a question for you brother Joel. What's the responsibilities for elders/shepherd's wives? Are they held to a higher standard and or needs to be involved in a more intentional yet general way in "the ministry"? Could you flesh that out a little bit?

Was just discussing this with a friend! Good thoughts! You’ve changed my stance!

In this matter you have given a reasonable response to what I've believed. Have not changed my stance, yet anyway, but what we do agree on is the fact that when a church uses this to water down distinctions in gender roles their motivation is wicked; that is, when this office is used to exercise authority over men by women then it pollutes our functions with wrong intent, violating the Word. What the Scripture does teach us is that male and female or co-inheritors, both are sons of God, both are valued equally in the image and likeness of God. The pendulum swings from oppressive non-sacrificial attitudes and bearing of men to the deceptive resistant attitudes of women, the desires of our flesh guiding our actions rather than the godly man who holds women up and the godly woman who support men in their authority. Both function in dominion over this earthly creation, over the living and non-living creation of this earth while in the roles we have toward one another.

Very interesting and informative perspective on this pastor Joel. I have studied several of these ideas myself but never gad heard this idea of why wives of deacons are given qualifications and elders wives are not. I’m curious, is it possible that the end statement regarding wives is an inclusive and referring to wives of elders and deacons. From what I can see, we only have the word “wives” not anything like “deacons wives”.

Question as regards Phoebe, what other terms did the Apostle Paul apply inexactly therefore diverging from the plain reading of the text? This is the question raised by ad hoc determining 'deacon of the church' does not mean 'deacon of the church.'. If it happened here where else did it happen and how do we know the difference.

Thanks Joel. We recently did a study on this topic in Sunday school. I would say that Phoebe is likely a deacon in the sense that she is representative of the church, sent by Paul to the church at Rome, some say with the epistle that we now know as the book of Romans. Diakanoi can be translated as servant or minister, so Phoebe isn't an appointed deacon of the church, but rather a servant sent to minister in Rome. We don't interpret Paul's use of deacon as it pertains to the government in Romans 13 and say "the civil magistrate held an office in the The New Testament church!" The best understanding of the office of deacon is simply an assistant to the elders, based on the character qualifications and the connection between the two offices- every time the deacons appear its in relation to the elders. You'll see this in the introductions/greetings in various epistles and in Acts where we have a clear picture of the deacons supporting the elders in their administration of duties in regard to care of the church.

Thank you for the insight but how do you explain the case of Phoebe who is a deaconess?

Joel, Thank you for your willingness to teach, staying with the Unchanging GOD and HIS Unchanging Word is not common, you encourage me. I do this for edification, for us all. 1. Acts 6 is prescriptive, not descriptive. (Hebrews 13:8;4:12) 2. The 12 Apostles (Apostles Creed) Matt 28:20 “whatsoever” 3. Corporately or separately, the 13 Apostles (12 plus Paul), regarding their scriptural teachings/epistles is what the Lord Jesus Wills in HIS Kingdom/Church. Pastors, Congregations, Conventions,etc., don’t supersede or equal the Apostles and their Divine Ordained Office. 2nd Peter 3:15-16 1st Tim 2:13 The Apostle Paul doesn’t ask the Pastor Timothy or the congregation for their opinion. We are to follow The Apostles Doctrine. 4. It’s not “women”, it’s “wives”. The Deacon’s (7 men) wives should emulate the lives of “widows indeed”. 5. Joel, great point about the “qualifications”, where is “the wife of o e husband”? The Office of Deacon in NT scripture as prescribed for all NT local congregations/assemblies/gatherings… -The sole responsibility of the 7 Deacons is the stewardship of the Lord’s money, not food. -Acts 4:4 5K men in Jerusalem NT church. “Look out among you 7 men..” -Acts 4:34-37 money, not food -Acts 6:1 “widows indeed” 1st Tim 5:4-16 -6:3 “seven men” the daily ministration, distribution of charities. 7 days in a week, 7 men to handle the “daily” NT ministry 6:3 “this” business; singular/ specific 6:4 the responsibility of the money was hindering the most important calling on any Gospel Minister (GM). The 12 Apostles (GM’s) didn’t give this to other GM’s or the congregation. Two local offices in every NT congregation/assembly/gathering, under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:1 1st Tim 3 Yes, we recognize the Office of Apostle in the NT scriptures but that Office can no longer be held. The qualifications are Acts 1:21-22 “Men” and walked with Jesus during His earthly ministry Acts 6:6 obedience to the “prescription” 6:7 results of obedience. Joel, Thank you.

haha. same. that’s what I wanna say also. Phoebe is a servant/deacon “but” she is not the type of Deacon in the office. They got confused because of the word deacon showing in ESV described for Phoebe not knowing everyone can be a servant but not in the office. For me the powerful and most evident description of a Deacon in the office is “husband of one wife” meaning that is the same as the description of “husband of one wife” on Elders. Plus, “their wives” is referring to criteria what should be the wife of a male deacon in the office.

I think you have a sound interpretation of this. Acts 6 brings even more clarity to it being a male role. I agree. I would add that it makes practical sense to me that an elder would also qualify as a deacon (meaning his wife would obviously meet those qualifications). The young men who aspire to serve as an elder obviously would have a heart to serve the church generally so that is born out naturally in the role of a deacon before he would serve as an elder.

I’m looking at Romans 16 verse 1 and it clearly speaks of a woman deacon. And Paul commends her. Sooooo there must be a misinterpretation in what you’re reading. Unless Paul was mistaken which I doubt you’d want to take that route.

You're completely wrong. Phoebe is called a Deacon by Paul to the Roman church. He uses the word Diakonos, but KJV changed it to say servant. In the Greek language the word "their" isn't used, but we apply it in English to say "their wives" instead of "women". Lastly, why would there be a qualifier for Deacon's wives but Elders who are the leaders have no requirements for their wives. In context nothing you say makes sense. Traditionalist values are not of God just because you apply them to your own life. They are just traditional because they are old. In 111 AD there are two women Deacons in the church. You mentioned dates hundreds of years later as proof.

Don't add to Scripture! If God wanted Paul to write "their" women likewise, meaning their wives likewise he would have. He didn't, he wrote women likewise. Don't add a word that Paul could have written but didn't. You completely ignored likewise or in the same manner in that verse. God is speaking to the differences of men and women as we see him do in Titus 2:1-6, 1 Timothy 2:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:1-7. It's not affirmative action, God made us differently and often addresses us differently. Elders are to lead as men were made to lead. Deacons are to serve as women were made to serve. That's why Paul references the order of creation not the design of marriage in the context of the order of the church to justify excluding women from overseer. He wouldn't have told women to be wives of one husband because women couldn't practice polygamy in the ancient world anyways. Even today with female chauvinism rampant polygamy is practiced overwhelmingly by men not women. If women can't serve in the Church as the 7 did in Acts then I sure hope you have only men serving food at Church gatherings or you're violating what you claim God is saying. To be cheeky, men made those widows a sandwich. 😊

No they should not. Didn’t even need to watch the video to answer that

NO,and I am a woman

I could be wrong, but women deacons seem inconsistent with the rest of the patriarchal model of Scripture, and like an on-ramp to egalitarianism.

I actually wish Ps Joel *did* go more into the weeds on this, rushing through made it easy to miss key points from the other side. The female deacon argument doesn't assert there is a different standard for female deacons; if you look at the text you see that it's a summary of the same qualifications of male deacons. So each descriptor is shorthand of the phrases used of deacons. It's also prefaced by the phrase 'women likewise' which is the same as how 'Deacons likewise' are spoken of as having similar character requirements to Elders and lacks a possessive term to denote it would mean 'wives'. So Ps. Joel is correct that 'my woman' in Greek can often mean 'my wife' but this phrase isn't used by Paul in 1 Timothy 3:11, then is applied in v12 as they are to be of 'one woman/wife' like the Elders. If Paul meant this is to suggest the women in v11 were the wives in v12 it would make more sense if he simply stated that first and didn't echo the language that posits what Deacons are to be like. Joel's response to the other claim is supposedly based on 'multiple texts' but if so please quote the Scripture instead of using assumptions. If anything I agree that Elders are to shepherd and not merely preach, but this is why it's so important they be good husbands and fathers with wives who are capable of assisting in the interpersonal shepherding side of their ministry. The idea this would be less important than a Deacon having a wife seems to be completely unsupported and based on extra-Biblical assumptions. It also has nothing to do with affirmative action, ethnic issues and anything woke. It's only a concern of what the early church practiced and the Apostles held, which sure seemed to involve a lot of women church planting, bank rolling the ministry of Apostles and serving in various capacities that seem consistent with some of them being deacons or equivalent in status. Acts 6 describes men being 'appointed over the task' of distributing to the widows fairly. Seems as though they are taking this over from the Apostles, whom they are directly under; so they are Overseers, aka Elders, not Deacons. This isn't a parallel comparison; at the very least we don't know their official status but it seems inconsistent with Deaconship given their authority is second only to the Apostles who wield authority no longer in any office. If anything, though, disputes like this seem largely based upon an assumption that the role of Deacon necessarily leads to Eldership and it becomes a kind of battleground. In reality it is a formal office of servanthood which could describe all sorts of functions in the life of the church. Female deacons would still be under male Elders authority anyway; the argument here doesn't rest upon women being in Eldership or any other role. The parallel passage on Elders in Titus doesn't even mention Deacons; it seems when low on ink/time Paul would rather be clear about standards for Elders than specify anything for Deacons. It's just assumed people will serve the church in various ways and knowing who does what requires some to be recognised as Deacons to facilitate that effectiveness of the church. A place of honour, surely, but seemingly not of great authority which seems to be the issue here.

Women belong in the household as they where created to The Lord made the woman to be a help mate to her husband and to bear children

NO NO NO WOMAN SHOULD BE A DEACON OR PASTOR- NO NO NO!!!

CHRIST IS HEAD OF MAN, MAN IS HEAD OF WOMAN WOMAM IS HELPMATE TO HUSBAND

Women should go home and pack lunches for their husbands? Are you being serious? Wow

Absolutely not, but a deacon has to have a wife. Therefore they operate wholly and fully as one, as God intended.

Short answer no. 😂. I’m still convinced though, if a church has a soul winning ministry, women would find themselves doing a fulfilling work for the cause of Christ and they wouldn’t feel the need for all these invented positions. But, churches these days do not evangelize.

Have you seen The Village Church podcast trying to redefine complimentarianism? Its really bad and sad.

Do you seriously think Paul would reference Phoebe to the church in Rome if it wasn't a title she held? Do you think people would care about some random woman? Would they have assumed he was philandering with random women? Logically nothing you said adds up. There are other words for servant in Greek in the Bible. Why did Paul choose the word Diakonos and why would she have been the very first thing mentioned in his letter?

That’s a big no. Sorry ladies 🙏🏼💜👑

Pastor John MacArthur and Phil Johnson. You guys got it hella wrong. What a way to build on a bad cornerstone. Nothing built on that will be pleasing

"Likewise, women . . . " The Greek word means in the same way or similarly. This indicates that in the same way as the men he has just qualified, the women are to be, and then he lists a few qualities that apply to the women. This is intentional. Why would Paul have qualified the wives of deacons and not have any qualifications for the wives of elders? I agree with you on the role of elder, but a careful exegesis of the passage definitely is talking about women deacons. If not, who would serve the needs of women in the church? Paul knows that godly women should serve other women and that men, who are not their husbands, should stay away. One can easily see the danger of breaking that principle in our culture today as well.