😂

If I remember rightly wasn't the cost of that many AFDD's in the region of £1500 just for the consumer unit without the labour (ref: David Savery). On that price who the hell is going to do a full board. Shower/ Oven and large loading items makes sense but an entire board for a standard 3 bed domestic doesn't. The money would be better spent on having the attending engineer inspect all the connections of sockets and light fittings. The increased energy draw is a pain and honestly the people that wait the longest to upgrade are the people that can least afford it. Defies logic in the long run, recommended sure, practical/ should a full AFDD be fitted no way.

Their RCBOs have similar, or even worse, power loss rating, also from my understanding the power lose rating is for full power draw, so it isn't so bad all the time.

@@effervescence5664 Yep, and at around 150 quid a throw for a Wylex AFDD, customers will laugh you out of the door. That CU must have cost over £2k to supply and fit! looooooooooool

@@niceguy235uk1 £3500.00 without fitting afdd/rcbo £185.00 each plus a board £145.00 and it's a 18 breaker set up.

I am not a supporter of the over use of AFDD, but arguing power effeciency against a life safety device... Seriously! I hope you personally unplug all your devices on your home before going to bed 🤔

🤣 thanks #movember 👍

Its a Buggers handle 😂

Just waiting for the 70s x movie music to start in the background

Agreed.

😂😂😂😂😂

Seen the price of old fords these days?

@@rodgerq Are you planning to plug the old ford and charge it? 😂

Sensible thinking - but will sense influence the next BS7671 amendment ?

@@efixx agreed. This is my interpretation of the draft amendment and what can reasonably be expected to be published. Lighting circuit and other small loads I do not believe will be a requirement.

Thanks for commenting and watching 👍

Good comment - thanks 👍

Honest electricians can't install AFDD as Bs7671 is not ridged in its advice for application. They just won't win the job. The customer is caught between the scaremongering of manufacturers videos, OTT installations that cost an arm and 2 legs and the electrician that says you don't need anything. I believe the brown book will resolve when released.

Thanks for commenting 👍

Only 1 side has RCD protection, this board is a 16th edition board which doesnt have RCD protection on lighting/heating loads.

@@chrisjinks5197 Sure, I'll take back the split load comment - that board doesn't comply with current regs (dual rcds would). Still doesn't need to though.

@@ThePa1ch it needs RCD protection for all circuits with cabling buried at less than 50mm.

@@TheFool2cool That's the current regs yes. But is a C3 in an old installation.

@@ThePa1ch My wild guess is: It does not need to be upgraded unless changes of installation are made.

Spot on. Complete waste of time. Include em in the smart meters... No chance

Afdd. Yanks have em as lower line voltage higher power. Only time we may have seen arcs were with the old room stats. Could tell as your TV or radio give a load of white noise out!

And the rest. 150 per circuit, probably more like £2000

Just checked the cost of a 20 way spd board £145.00 the cost of the afdd/rcd breaker £185.00 per total £3475.00 just for the board ouch. Cant see Mr&Mrs minimum wage going for that.

@@chrisardern4594 😂😂 I’ll take 2

Yes for half the board!

@@chrisardern4594 never mind mr and Mrs minimum wage.. I doubt anyone would really

They have been fitted for about £200 a pop 8-)=

Shame about the blokes 🧦 👀👀🙈🤣😂

All the time 😉

They are available as type A - don’t think you’ll see them going backwards and making type AC

🤣hopefully not. Too much choice is room for too much error! Just need to get the certificate circuit details page up to date with all these “types”, including SPD types/grades, it’s easy to put the wrong device in and not realise immediately.

The property has plastic water and gas pipes into the installation 👍

@@efixx I used to always take a Ze from the main earth conductor not tied into the earth block whether it was TT PME or TNS. You never know if the gas pipes internally are buried anywhere. That's the way I did it but not saying he is wrong in his method.

@@efixx so no need to install bonds? Asking for a friend

@@kiers1970 - if water and gas are plastic, no you don’t.

I'll really appreciate if someone could explain if its mandatory or otherwise to fit a B16 OverCurrent Protection for Intruder Alarm as seen in 9:37 ?? Thanks in advance.

Top advice 👍

Not the electricians, most customers will not pay that so they just wouldn't get the job. I'll wait for the cost to come down.

I understand where your coming from but most customers hate paying £300-£600 for fully rcbo boards and I can’t see new customers paying £3000 nowadays so there most likely to just leave it alone then the cost has an adverse effect on installations as a whole as customer will just leave old fuse wire board still working . It’s a catch 22 problem , I wonder if plumbers will start installing sprinkler systems in all homes now as they can save lives too ?

Have you employed a full time fire fighter to live at home with you? You haven't? But it could save your life one day, don't you care about the safety of your family you cheapskate?

Are there a lot of cases of RCBOs failing?

@@IAmThe_RA Don’t know, just asking the question as AFDD’s clearly have more microelectronics built in. Too early to comment re reliability I suppose.

Sounds like the Grenfell effect rolling out

No wonder my council tax bill keeps going up well above inflation.

@@Benzknees that's cutting the central government funding.

@@efixx definitely, they also fitted sprinklers in every room and currently fitting new front doors with a longer fire rating to every flat.

@@stevecraft00 - If so, I haven’t noticed any reduction in VAT, fuel duties, income taxes, etc., etc..

How Much Power Does an AFDD Consume? kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fc5hobaXsKuug4k.html

👍

Just out of interest, do you have any evidence that AFDDs will prevent/reduce fires in such installations?

@@johnhoward2104 does an AFDD have any other purpose?

@@edc1569 implied in your question is that they are capable of doing what they are described as being able to do - that is, we're told they prevent fires caused by series/parallel arc faults, therefore, that's what they must do! However, there could be a mismatch between what they are described/claimed to be able to do and what they actually do. So do you have any evidence at all that they actually do what they are claimed to be able to do? Below, is a copy of my previous post: It is perhaps very unwise to push the notion that AFDDs are beneficial given the lack of evidence of their efficacy both regarding their sensitivity to faults and fire prevention ability. They are perhaps being pushed on us in upcoming regulations due to the lobbying power of those with financial interests in their installation (such as manufacturers and wholesalers). There is, however, apparently little evidence for their effectiveness (see, for example: communities.theiet.org/discussions/viewtopic/1037/27144 where an electrical engineer, in part, says: "The science behind these devices is simply not there, and it is easily shown that these devices are being sold to detect a problem which does not exist". Damming words indeed), and DIY testing shows just how useless they can be (see, for example: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iryhnJl0ysqxm4E.html and kzfaq.info/get/bejne/oK6igbB3qrnIZo0.html). Therefore, we certainly should not be saying they are effective at preventing fires until we have the evidence to confirm they are. In short, are we being sold a bum steer, probably for nothing more than financial gain by those with vested financial interest? Also, if there is a fire because an AFDD didn't stop it by extinguishing the arc, who is responsible - us, for telling the customer AFDDs prevent fires, or the manufacturer for making claims about their device that didn't work? If you have any proof AFDDs provide their claimed fire prevention ability, please forward it to the aforementioned engineer, who may be very interested to know about it, and if you post it to the forum, we can all know about it.

@@johnhoward2104 I am equally dubious of the value of surge protection devices fitted in DBs. Is there any evidence that they work? The proper place for surge protection is in the potentially vulnerable equipment as close as possible to the components likely to suffer from surges. In other words its a matter of mains-powered electronic equipment being competently designed rather than a sticking-plaster approach which might not even be effective.

I think Matt was taking about a main switch being an RCCB covering all the circuits. Thanks for commenting 👍

@@efixx yeah I thought that, but in your colleagues video he said if it was a single RCD or twin RCD both complied with the regs, because the regulations were not talking about the RCD, personally I would take the view of the guy in the video.

In fairness this only has one RCD, several lighting circuits had no RCD protection at all so a slightly different issue.

The next set of regs will clarify the use of AFDD which will benefit all as everyone will then price from a level playing field. I also believe that the recommendations will not be all circuit.

#movember

DC Leakage

@@paullyons4624 yes, isn't that exactly why you wouldn't install a type A RCBO?

@@tomcardale5596 Think you've got your models mixed up. Type A RCBO is suitable for DC pulsating leakage up to 6 ma. Note the ~ ac symbol and the - symbol below for dc marked on the breakers.

@@effervescence5664 I think that's almost exactly what I was getting at but also almost exactly the opposite! As I understand it there's AC (AC only), A (AC & pulsed DC), and B (AC & pure DC). Clearly AC is wrong, and given the prevalence of switched mode power supplies in electronics it's right that these are going by the wayside. I should preface the next bit by saying I have never really paid much attention to domestic solar. The solar I am involved in tends to be larger scale and installed (deliberately) to avoid the need for RCDs. It's entirely possible I've missed something and it's entirely possible that I'm picking up on something that's either not possible or not a thing, hence the query. Since making the query I have gone from "I think something might have been missed" to "I think I need to do some more research" and this research follows. In summary, it depends but I think a 30mA type A RCD is wrong but not for the reasons I originally thought. The IET's code of practice in section 8.8 says that transformerless inverters (that's most of them) "may be able to feed a DC current in to the AC side. This DC element may not be picked up by a conventional RCD and may also hinder its normal operation. A type B RCD is, by construction, able to handle and detect both AC and DC residual currents". The COP says that where an RCD is required (and in another section it gives lots of reasons why you probably don't want to if you don't have to) it must be a type B. BS7671 712.411.3.2.1.2 says "Where an electrical installation includes a PV power supply system without at least simple separation between the AC side and DC side, an RCD installed to provide either fault protection by automatic disconnection of supply or additional protection in according with Regulation 415.1.1, for the PV supply cable shall be Type B.... Where the PV converter is, by construction, not able to feed DC fault currents into the electrical installation, an RCD of Type B is not required". "Simple separation: separation between circuits or between a circuit and earth by means of basic insulation" - which I think means that any transformerless inverter doesn't meet that. So, I think this poses the big question "can the inverter inject DC in to the RCD?" because if it does it must be a type B. Looking at SMA's datasheet for the STP25000TL (it's one of our more common inverters) it says it contains an "all-pole sensitive residual-current monitoring unit" whatever that means. The STP50-40 is the same. Diving in to the operating manual it says "The inverter is compatible with type A and B residual current devices that have a rated residual current of 100mA or higher" and then references this document, "Criteria for selecting a residual current device" files.sma.de/downloads/RCD-TI-en-45.pdf which is quite boring! For the STP40-50 (50kW) "The inverter is compatible with type B residual-current devices that have a rated residual current of 300 mA or higher". I checked their smaller inverters and they require a minimum of 100mA too. Amendment 1 of BS7671 relating to EV charging has similar requirements. Either use a Type B RCD or where you use a Type A RCD then the charger must incorporate DC residual current monitoring.

@@tomcardale5596 thank you for this, very interesting and answered a lot of questions I'd been asking myself. Although it may also be worth looking at the costs and availability of type B RCDs.

I thought that,made more work,guessing he has a deal on populated boards

Most customers would go with the electrician who says you don't need AFDD.

Checkout David Savery on KZfaq

@@efixx Saverys magic bin

It’s complicated because there is no single one type of arc test equipment will be limited it’s gonna take more research and effort to get a comprehensive testing device.

You might think that ..... 🤣🤣🤣

crabtree?

Although Crabtree have gone downhill over the years, their consumer unit are great and its very unlikely they will cease making them or change design. If anything, Wylex have been the pain out of the brands mentioned with design changes that cause retrofit problems

I think your right, but I also think you should make your customer aware of the recommendation of bs7671. Consider using cost-effective instead of cost.

Of course, goes without saying. It’s enough currently to convince them spending £300 on full RCBO board over a £50 BG split load, that still currently complies, how you interpret the regs. Throw in a £1500 AFDD board, they don’t want to know. Tbh, I wouldn’t even spend that on my own property at that price knowing they will drop significantly in the next 5 odd years and I don’t have the labour cost added.

@@dannyboisparky you forgot about £100 for surge protection. Which in my opinion should be strongly recommended.

Shhh - we don’t talk about that £££

The power on lighting circuits is unlikely to trip AFDD. Thinking your safe when your not is more dangerous.

Needs to be a sustained arc and not a switching arc and the circuit must be reasonably loaded to trip the AFDD.

Exactly, all those shower pull switches and cooker switches arcing away and loose spurs with heaters plugged in. Come across them every week.

Lol only if requested looks fine as it is

A Hager flush fitted board would of looked better there

Wife, son, daughter and a house worth £350,000 now the safety features of the board looks cheap... cost is 1% if the family are thrown in for free.

@@efixx I do appreciate what your saying it's just that the cost at the moment it's out of the price range of most people.

Totally agree 🦾👍

#movember

@@efixx I checked the release date as soon as I saw the vid. "This has got to be #movember!" 😎

Thanks for commenting 👍

About £2,500

#movember 👍

He must be doing it for a bet.

5:40 a good Ze reading there. I could be wrong as it’s not zoomed in but it looks to be clamped onto the MET rather than the disconnected conductor. Worth mentioning as I had a very confused student ask me about this very thing recently.

@@fearthebeardorg yes people always seem to muddle the procedure for Ze Vs psfc

Buy the fully populated one from Toolstation and sell the bits you don’t need on eBay - www.toolstation.com/wylex-metal-dual-type-a-rcd-consumer-unit-8-mcbs-spd

Even if it's £100, fitting TVOP to all DB'S is excellent value for money.

#movember

Exactly! We have installed plastic consumer units here in Denmark since the 1970s and we still do, and we NEVER have any problems with them. Also most of Europe is using plastic consumer units, they are after all made self extinguishing plastic rated @ 850°C.