Jiren menacingly blinks broly away

“But Broly, would you lose?” “Nah, I’d improve”

“Would you lose to Jiren?” “Nah, I’d shout”

The manga clearly displays that Beerus is above Belmod in my opinion. Beerus is focus by the other Gods of destruction and handles them pretty well. Quitela seemed to be the only challenge.

Idk man the crumbs on the cookie scans are pretty compelling

My only thing is that, while yes Jiren has better control of his ki, and doesn’t need to power up. Broly in his very FIRST real fight took on a Goku and Vegeta who have trained and battled their whole lives. Even Jiren has trained his whole life. Broly has only ever trained with his dad. In the movie frieza stated that him training Broly was practically worthless. Let’s give Broly the same training as everyone else and see who wins in a more “fair” sense for lack of a better word. It’s pretty impressive that his first real fight with anyone ever, and he’s being compared to a immortal destroyer who’s had millions of years of training🤷🏻‍♂️ Broly even caught up to SSJ Gogeta and made him transform into SSB. He broke his limits 3-4 times in a day with just his sheer potential alone.

My biggest problem with this argument is the fact that Jiren pushed Goku to UI. Broly smacked him around so hard he never even got the chance. Broly was also fighting a version of Goku and Vegeta, who were WAY past the previous limits they had in that tournament- and even if they were relative- (which they were not, due to how saiyans work) Broly finally going all out still put them down no diff without trying. DBS-Super Hero Broly who still puts the NEW Ultra Instinct/Ego saiyans on edge to fight with, would mop Jiren if a weaker UI Goku was able to go toe to toe with Jiren, but doesn't even wanna swap hands with a semi trained Broly. Until we see Jirens new level, he caps out at ToP UI, and Broly is relative if not stronger than POST Granolah UI (Edit for Manga Only)- You also can't have a Manga only precise argument, while choosing to ignore statements due to them not making sense personally. Jiren was beaten still in Manga alone. Take no other anime feats of Broly, and use JUST the Manga. The context of Granolahs wish was to be the strongest, surpassing the Goku that fought ToP Jiren. Goku and Vegeta caught up to that, gained new transformations, and then still stated later AFTER training for Black Freiza that Broly is on their level. Again thats just putting the jolly green giant back up to post Granolah UI/Ego. Which is just so far above ToP UI that you can't in good confidence say Broly isn't currently stronger than Jiren until we see Jirens new levels.

I love how some people just assumed that Jiren just stopped training. Like, everyone. understand that Jiren has another goal now. So, think about that for a moment. Jiren is still getting stronger but now he's more open about getting stronger with others now. He got that strong by himself, now imagine how strong he's currently getting while training with others including his GOD and Angel.

15:30 but gogeta isn’t a naturally occurring being. I’m pretty positive when they say he’s the strongest sayian they’re speaking in terms of naturally occurring sayains, not a fusion of two

the manga pretty clearly shows beerus is stronger than Belmod.

Ok so if jiren>all god of destruction and he couldnt beat UI goku but UI goku in granola arc gets oneshoted by black frieza and beerus is supposedly stronger then black freiza then does that mean jiren in TOP could beat current frieza and beerus? Its getting confusing. No way jiren is stronger then characters after TOP. Those god of destruction statements hold no weight anymore after TOP.

Broly is the most naturally gifted saiyan weve seen.

shout out carthu man, the collab I didn't know I needed

I think Beerus would react if there was someone close to him in power, and all he did was sneeze. When he reacted to Jiren's power, he couldn't even fathom it was coming from one guy. And then there's the thing of Broly supposedly beating Frieza a whole hour and he was still alive. Jiren swat him like a fly in 5 seconds while holding back.

I think is a BIG MISTAKE to talk about Gogeta as an individual.

I'm pretty sure Toyotaro said that Broly was stronger than MUI Goku after the Moro Arc. I think the direct quote from him is "Goku may have seemed perfect by the end of the Moro arc, but he still has plenty of room to grow: why, there's Whis, Beerus, Broly, and the Grand Priest!" This statement also confirms that end of Moro Goku isn't as strong as Beerus.

One important section of guides that I think were missed were the V-jump and Saikyo jump scans talking about Broly in DBS Superhero, which double down on the DBS Broly statements and then some.

Broly: Are you the strongest because I won't be able to adapt enough? Or are you I won't be able to adapt enough because you're the strongest? Jiren: Nah, I'd blink.

Love your guy’s synergy throughout this video! Need more collabs like this please 😂

Know it’s going to be a banger vid🗣️🔥

i feel like broly being stated to be the strongest after jiren and being that its a fight after the top just off virtue of how the series works broly has to be stronger

Beerus stated that Belmod beat him in arm wrestling, and not actual combat. So there is still uncertainty.

The way i've seen people try to twist whis's statements regarding Jiren being stronger than the gods of destruction is insane💀

Carthu Dojo himself amazing collab and amazing video!

Always loved Carthu’s commentary

Awesome seeing you collaborate with Carthu. I hope you two do it again later on. Happy early New Years.

This entire debate to me is annoying because I feel Ike there’s this lack of acknowledgement that Broly has no real training prior to fighting Goku and Vegeta. Even if you wanna say that Broly capped at his Wrath State, that’s literally a result of his lack of proper training. If Broly had any moment of training with Whis, I know Jiren has no chance against him

Did you guys skip the novels where Frieza directly states Broly is the strongest warrior he ever faced?

For the anime when it comes to Jiren vs Broly the main points in favour Jiren is the stronger than GoDs statements but I don't see how that matters when Broly could just scale above him. Its undeniable that the Goku and Vegeta Broly faces are much stronger than they were in the ToP not to mention he goes up against their fusion. You'd have to argue that the boost in UI is larger than the boost goku gets as gogeta. Which is unlikely as the series hypes up fusion as this rare event that can only happen in emergency situations, which they wouldn't if Goku could just reach a state on his own that gives him a bigger increase. There's also the trend that in almost every successive arc the main antagonist is stronger than the last one, as an example Cell was way stronger than Frieza.

Oh god it’s the kid buu vs buuhan debate all over again

This matchup is just Screaming Baby vs Hydrogen Bomb

Awesome colab love you both

I really really love your thumbnails Man!! ❤👏

Yo carthu collab? That’s actually hype af

Btw, the kanji used to describe broly is "多分" (Tabun), which can also mean maybe/might/possibly instead of probably. It's really vague what the kanji can be without any further context. It's just meant to express uncertainty. So we can't even assume goku is saying "probably"

Carthusdojo Collab with six, I didn’t expect that.🐱

also Six and Carthu... this is like the best buddy cop movie weve never seen

I love the fact that it was mentioned how jiren went from getting beat up by MUI Goku to surpassing him in just a couple minutes. Because most of the time Broly fans argue that Broly will just “outgrow” Jiren in power by time but in reality jiren grew more powerful than Broly in a shorter period of time since Broly alone beat up Frieza for more than an hour.

Awesome collab you too.

At no point does broly start “beating up” super gogeta, that form was smoking broly scene by scene he went blue to one shot his goofy ass def didn’t need it

During Moro arc they said Goku was stronger than Broly at that point. And the reason why they left UI Goku out of the Broly movie is because the fight would end in 10sec but instead they decided to make Gogeta canon instead💯

The one match up I wanted to see after the tournament of power

I fw this idea heavy. Love the jjk ost in the back 💪🏾

Yay new video!

Problem with this is that this entire conversation is disingenuous dragon Ball super broly does take place in the super timeline however it also takes fax from the manga for example we know that beerus is the strongest destroyer maybe not in the anime but in the manga he fought all the other destroyers by himself putting that aside the Goku and Vegeta that fought broly at this point have already undergone the tournament of power they're already way stronger than they were broly might not have been able to force Goku into ultra instinct but the problem is is it took a significantly stronger Goku and Vegeta than from the tournament of power fusing and going super Saiyan blue to stop broly In the tournament of power they didn't even bother considering fusion maybe it wouldn't have made sense for the plot whatever the case would be we know that ultra instinct Goku for the little bit of time he had did become stronger than jiren we also know that Goku his base form generally got a bus and an enhancement after that It just doesn't make any sense no matter what line of arguments you two try to use jiren cannot be stronger than broly because here's the thing It's super easy to say that without ultra instinct if Goku and Vegeta had used pitara or they used the fusion dance during the tournament of power they probably still would have been able to beat jiren let alone a significantly stronger version of that having to go blue to fight jiren And yeah we know that once he went blue he was destroying broly but he still put up a fight for a little bit fact of the matter being there's not really any which way you can argue jiren being stronger than broly broly is just too strong a little disappointed with how like disingenuine this entire thing is and how you guys are basically just trying to bend fax to make it work but yeah there's just no way that broly would lose to jiren broly is simply just too strong

if jiren doesnt smoke broly in the first minute of the fight then that shit is over for him

Hope you get 200k my friend

At 23:21 they show a panel from the manga but what chapter is that even from bc that panel is not out on Shonen Jump…

Ok so this is a really old argument the main i want to hear from six is if jiren can just blink broly away that means hes 2× stronger than gogeta blue at the very least are you guys implying jiren is beyond max fusion blue level?

This feels like a super weird crossover. I love it.

In anime, the cooler character always wins. Broly would get smacked around at first until Jiren gets frustrated at how quickly Broly is adapting, how durable he is and how relentless he is. Eventually Broly's beastly final form would overcome Jiren and he would literally rag doll him like everyone else. The only individual that can beat Broly is Beast Gohan and Black Frieza, Jiren is old news

Ayyy you got Carthu! Great video!

And then they retconned Beerus's power and made him stronger than black Frieza.

Whis was talking about universe 11 mortal but he was poking fun at Beerus for losing an arm wrestling match to quitela. I think people are getting this confused. Whis didn't know what universe had that strongest mortal as he stated he didn't know much about the other universes. That's why when a suppressed jiren was pushing back a blue kaioken spirit bomb whis brought up the mortal stronger than a Destroyer again because he got confirmation that it was universe 11.

What is that song in the beggining? ik its from jjk but idk what it is.

everything else is cool but i def cant see belmond being stronger than beerus. in the manga the GOD exhibition, all the gods literally tried to jump beerus 😭😭 not only that. he was the one of the last GOD left in the exhibition when it was over

18:00 This statement about Jiren being barely stronger than Goku/Vegeta while also being overwhelmingly strong is not a statement that claims that Jiren is weak now. *The Jiren is barely stronger than Goku/Vegeta is misunderstood.* Rather, this is one of the many examples of how Dragon Ball makes physical power and Ki Control resulting in power distinctive. Here are some other notable examples: *1. In the DBS anime (ep16), Whis explains to Vegeta the importance of energy control over raw power:* *[SUB]* "I see you've substantially increased your power through training. But no matter how long you try, you'll never beat Beerus Sama that way. Learn to control your energy. If you can do that... *[DUB]* "You've achieved considerable power through what I assume is intense physical training, but if you continue focusing on power alone, you'll never defeat Lord Beerus. The most crucial skill you lack is a method for controlling your energy. If you can learn that... *2. Whis explains to the Oracle fish the importance of Ki as one's power (ep18).* *[SUB]* "They need to raise the level of their ki... otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger" This goes along with Whis' plan as to how he wants to train the Saiyans, which he hinted at before (referring to 1.^) *3. Chouzenshuu 1 states:* "Because there are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, it is necessary to increase one's ki to overcome this barrier and become stronger." *4. Spirit Control* Spirit Control is the same as Ki, as stated in Chapter 52: "What we call Spirit, Goku called Chi" One's Ki/Spirit is demonstrated as crucial for one's true power. Vegeta in _Super Hero,_ continues this training style after recognizing how significant it was when Jiren displayed it. "You must achieve balance in body and mind" (chapter 53). "Before your training here, your body and spirit were so off-balance that you couldn't project your own power very well" (chapter 55). *5. Goku during Kami/Popo's training* "Movement is waste! You must first train your Spirit" (Mr. Popo, Chapter 164). The 'filler' episodes in the anime insanely dive into details regarding this. *6. Android Saga Piccolo* After Gero absorbs some of Piccolo's power and adds it to his own, he gets thrashed and doesn't understand. The scenes shared as follows: "This is impossible!! I was more power to begin with--and now I've added his energy to mine...!!!" (Gero) "Remember this: in battle, we can amplify what you call energy in one tremendous burst. What you stole from me just now was nothing." (Piccolo, DB Manga Chapter 345) *7. King Kai's Teachings* "Wanna be the best in the Universe? Then you gotta train not just your body, but also your spirit" (King Kai, DBS Chapter 39) *8. Dragon Ball's Super Exciting Guide* "You can only train your muscles to a certain power, it's 'Ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the Universe." *9. Toriyama's comment on "What is the key to winning in battle?"* "In battle, the most important thing is the size of your _ki,_ and your control over it. _Ki_ as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki] , courage [yuki], and right-mindedness [shoki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through _ki._ I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest of warriors in the universe through strengthening his _ki."_ *Notable? Ressurection F Manga* "It's quite evidence to me that you are a prodigy in combat, yet you always seem to be lagging one step behind Goku... You are constantly straining your senses... In that state, when it comes down to business, you won't be able to function at full efficiency" (Whis, DBZ RF Manga Chapter 2) - It should be noted that while aspects from RF have been rebooted, a semblance of consideration can remain. However, in this case, it can be argued that Whis was referring to Vegeta achieving a sense of combative ability that would eventually be the foundation for UI rather than a poke against his use of Spirit.

Carthu and Six ???? The collab I didn’t know I needed 😭😭🔥🔥🔥

A collab with carthu? GOATGOATGOAT

This video was really dope and I was really excited for it. The only thing that I was wondering is why they didn't use the superhero movie data or guide book for dbs broly? I already figured that the outcome will be in jiren's favor. It's potential vs potential and adaptability as well. I love both characters and again this video was awesome. I really enjoyed it 🔥👌🏾

W vid. I do have a Broly agenda to push lol

This collab is great

What is the song at the beginning of the video?

Jiren just says "It's Over" and broly just vine booms him away lol

Six you should totally do a video on who’s stronger. Archie Sonic or Hyper Sonic.

I mean yeah the manga discussion is a bit more complex than the anime one mainly due to the lack of Broly content. Like mentioned, Belmond is different, Beerus keeps getting stronger, etc. It is kinda wild current Goku and Vegeta still struggle agaisnt Beerus. They just keep scaling Beerus up. I dunno what's your opinion on current Manga Goku's power but I certainly believe it is way higher than what he showed in the Tournament agaisnt Jiren. Would he beat Jiren solo now? Or is Jiren still just that powerful? I struggle to accept Manga Beerus is weaker than Jiren. If only we saw Broly going all out agaisnt current Goku or something then we'd have a better foundation to build on.

Thanks for setting the record straight both of your inputs really helps put this to be blunt tiresome debate to bed cause as you both pointed out,which I hope the people that love to debate this that broly is stronger than Jiren is simply not true at all hopefully now this will die down

W vid as always

Listen this is a banger collab and i love it, but some of the info seems all over the place here. Right off the bat, with Jiren being stronger than beerus because of what whis said... but not mentioning that he, directly after this, said it was only in an arm wrestle... ONCE. And that's just the anime, not including the manga. While later in the manga it still shows that both goku and vegeta are still weaker than beerus. obviously dbs scaling is all out of whack and all over the place, but with this video coming out so recently, it's strange that none of that is really considered when explaining how strong Jiren is.

Other huge problem when you guys are talking about the two in their " " potential is you seem to forget that jiren's potential was basically just doing what broly did when he got stronger and broke his limits he basically just hulked out a lot of his skill went down to just clashing blows with Goku and the best you could credit him for is that he figured out that UI blocks things automatically so he could force Goku to take some hits and even when Goku took all of those hits he still wasn't going down whereas broly is going to constantly be getting stronger every time he gets hurt and jiren won't actually be able to put him down before broly puts him down first again this entire debate is just unsincere and doesn't make sense like this is not structured well enough for this to even be a video and I understand that this might be your guys's first collab and long like this is not structured well enough for this to even be a video and I understand that this might be your guys's first collab and cars dojo isn't as popular so he does his own thing but this is just not really cool You guys are just muddying the waters with this video and it doesn't solve any real questions

W video from six what’s your tag I wanna send you my boruto tier list

A video with Carthu now six needs Powers scaling now he is truly powerful

There are broly fans that says ssj broly will one shot full power Jiren 😂

I thought it was started several times that berus is the strongest god of destruction

Hopefully soon you can do a video on Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo and how strong you think they are.

how many times has beerus power goalpost been moved/retconned? that kinda defeats this whole argument

I think it depends. If jiren wants to make it quick, he’ll kill broly instantly before he gets a chance to get mad, but if he waits and tries to fight him at full power with his own full power, at one point he’s gonna get overpowered

Broly had no legitimate martial arts training. Its safe to say once he masters himself he'll easily surpass everything but the angels and above. Jiren is literally a trained martial artist and renowned space cop. Broly is a homeless 48 year old caveman.

The thing that u are missing 1. when Goku said probably he didn’t say he wasn’t sure he meant most likely since he fought Beerus more times that he can count(literally) and Mui goku if he didn’t lose the form would have won and that goku was still not stronger the Beerus but stronger then jiren in terms of total power level He said that when he knew he could still could not beat Beerus so that might just mean the Belmond statement by whis might not be 100% since he is not known to be the one person who knows every power level just by reading it because any race power raises by days like saiyans by training A guy said he would not play around and be cocky and would go straight for the kill meanwhile jiren could have used one hit to finish goku and vegeta before they could raise they’re power levels by serious ppl might not show it but they sometimes to are cocky So I think broly wins Extreme-insane diff Broly would probably be very very damaged but I see broly winning

I watched a death battle with broly in it. They cited a source saying that broly was, in fact, the strongest mortal in the entire show at that point. Only the gods and angels were stronger than him.

Isn't Beerus confirmed to be stronger then black frieza? Because if this is true, the whole Jiren > Beerus argument gets fucked.

Broly Slams easily 😭🙏

My boy💪🏽💪🏽

Broly slams if you include statements. Every official Dragon Ball source calls Broly the strongest enemy that Goku and Vegeta yet. A lot of people say Jiren isn't an enemy but he is called that by Dragon Ball Super and Toriyama. Also Goku has said himself that he thought he was super strong until he met Broly. Meaning that Goku even potentially surpassed Jiren but not Broly. Goku was even shocked in the manga that Gogeta somehow beat Broly. A lot of people also downplay how Goku said that Broly might be stronger than Beerus. But this isn't fair since Goku doesn't know how strong Beerus is. Also Gogeta is not a naturally occuring saiyan so that doesn't make any sense as well. So who actually wins?: Broly and it's not close. Lastly people forget that Broly can adapt super quick in battle.

4:44 Not trying to come off as the "um actually" but I disagree with this. Ssj broly was not "beating up" ssj gogeta, before broly turned full power ssj (green hair form which forced gogeta to go blue) ssj broly only landed like 2-4 attacks on ssj gogeta all of which caused no visible damage and ssj gogeta was superior. I overall agree with the video and I believe that Jiren would win both in the anime and manga however, I'm surprised the scans and toriyama statements about broly in the super hero movie weren't brought up.

He beat up gogita ? No way in hell. Gogita shit on him the whole time

Great collab and discussion guys. Really enjoyed this one.

Damn Six, i remember when you were starting out. I was in the fucking naruto debate server, now look at you

So six what made you change your mind, is it validity of the scans in Broly's favor cuz if I remember well you've already gone over this and the arguments you presented kinda seemed to in Broly's favor Anyways non of these matter for future scaling of DB since this problem only exist for the anime, the manga never actually said anything about Beerus being surpassed and all that. it was just anime trying to hype things as usual, I think this line of scaling should be dropped. What we should know is the Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Jiren and Piccolo are all in G.o.D's realm of power, with Beast Gohan, Black Frieza and Quitella getting into Beerus level of power, the super elite God

Any new Sonic videos in the future?

I think the point about broly not being the strongest because gogeta exists is pretty moot. He is the strongest saiyan because he doesn't require external circumstances to exist. He doesn't require two people to exist. So yes, gogeta is the strongest saiyan, but his existence is temporary. That was the whole point of the movie was to show that broly is far and away the strongest saiyan, but the combined power of two saiyans is the "ultimate power"

When are you doing yuta vs hakari

Gogeta is a fusion, it's 2 people he's not a separate entity. Broly at that point was the strongest saiyan, singular. From a narrative standpoint broly is stronger than jiren I don't Think the UI goku at the time of the TOP wouldve defeated broly. He beat the shit out of jiren though. The sheer imagery of Broly vs Jiren and the shattering dimensions speaks volumes imo, hard to say because Gogeta is wayyyy stronger than ui goku but also way stronger than broly so who he lost to doesn't really give us info Also vegeta glazing Jiren and not broly is because of the statement goku said. Vegeta concedes broly was way stronger than them. Vegeta not contesting the statement about broly means its most likely true especially when he corrected Goku about Jiren. He Says jiren wasn't, he just had good ki control which kinda goes against your point Broly going from saiyan saga level to beyond God's is a significantly faster power boost than jirens. It's not even comparable I'm sorry, like idk if you guys forget all of dragon ball and Z but to go from a power level akin with the saiyan saga/namek to beyond god goku/vegeta in a single fight is absolutely absurd

How can you argue Broly is stronger than Jiren when Jiren literally glares a spirit bomb away?

CARTHUUU!!!

I find it funny that these powerscalers will continue to say that Belmod is stronger than Beerus when Beerus literally says he only lost to him in an arm wrestling match.

Thank you, Six, for being in the right side of history. Jiren is the Greatest Opponent 💪

Jiren has more raw power than Belmod, in a fight Belmod would win as seen in his fight with the other G.O.D he has lest physical power than most of them but he makes up for it with his cunnning and tactical nature and his unique techniques. Furthermore, it is implied in the DBS manga that Beerus is the strongest G.O.D, yes he was not bodying all of the G.O.D but he was able to keep up with them for a period of time. Moreover, like I said before Beerus's power has been retconned several times first he was 30% stronger than Goku in ssjg in the battle of gods arc but now he is now stronger than a Black Frieza who bodied both TUI Goku and UE vegeta. My conclusion is that I don't believe that the G.O.D are a good benchmark for strength I still believe that Jiren his stronger but using the G.O.D as a benchmark for strength isn't valid.

Analyzing something so convoluted that even the creators don’t know…is nuts

The movies are there own continuity as well