Did the Pilot of TWA 841 Bungle a Risky Maneuver to Save Time? 😬 Air Disasters

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Did the Pilot of TWA 841 Bungle a Risky Maneuver to Save Time? 😬 Air Disasters | Smithsonian

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Күн бұрын

Investigators looking into the April 4, 1979 incident involving TWA 841 have formulated an unsettling theory: they think the pilot may have attempted an unauthorized maneuver, without the knowledge of his flight engineer.
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@LSBPS7614 Жыл бұрын

In its final report, published in June 1981, the NTSB concluded the probable cause of the accident was a mechanical failure of a slat under inappropriate manipulation and the captain's untimely action.

@gta5content377 Жыл бұрын

Nice

@EpicJoshua314 Жыл бұрын

The NTSB got this one wrong and there was practically 0 evidence to even suggest that the pilots, let alone any other pilot, did this unauthorized maneuver and had ever done this in the past, or where even aware of this. The co-pilot stated in a 1983 documentary called “The Plane That Fell From The Sky” that he first learned about this maneuver 3 weeks after! Not only did the NTSB get the cause dead wrong, but the episode got the cause dead wrong 🤯

@calvinnickel9995 Жыл бұрын

@ Joshua Newton Of course it’s wrong. That’s why I spent time as a mechanic installing flap droop mods on 727s (which added a false spar on the mid flaps and extended the aft flap) which would do the exact same thing but without the terrible consequences. Which was necessary because the 727 was designed when fuel was .10c a gallon.. so it flew very nose high at slower more economical speeds. And disconnecting the standby hydraulic pump circuit breaker (not the “slats” since they are electric) and using Alternate flaps (not the main flap lever as shown here) is an easy way to fix it.

@calvinnickel9995 Жыл бұрын

@ Joshua Newton Oh yeah.. and I bet that that FO played dumb when questioned.

@EpicJoshua314 Жыл бұрын

The evidence shows this is what most likely happened. While cruising at 39,000 feet, the bolt to the outboard right aileron on a 13 year old 727 fractured, causing the aileron to free-float up (flutter) and create the high frequency vibration Captain Hoot Gibson reported. As the aileron floated up, the plane banked to the right and turned off its heading, the autopilot tried to correct for this by moving the control wheel left. Once the control wheel turned more than 10°, the spoilers on the left wing deployed to aid in roll control, creating the slight buffeting. With the plane turning right and the autopilot commanding a left turn, the 727 was in a cross-controlled position. The yaw damper rate gyro and or coupler sensed discrepant rudder inputs which resulted in a lower rudder hardover, causing the plane to yaw severely right. In this condition the left wing produced more lift as a result; on sweptback planes like the 727, a large sideslip angle produces a large rolling moment. Hoot disconnected the autopilot and applied opposite aileron and upper rudder, but with the lower rudder in the hardover position and limited roll control due to the right outboard aileron free-floating, Hoot’s control inputs were insufficient to prevent TWA 841 from going into an uncontrollable spiral dive.

@calvinnickel9995 Жыл бұрын

We learned about this in our 727 course. It’s a bit misrepresented here. 727 leading and trailing edge flaps are run off the A system engine driven hydraulic pumps. There’s no way to shut down entire A system hydraulics in a way that wouldn’t terribly affect the rest of the airplane (outer flight spoilers, lower rudder, and half the aileron and elevator hydraulic power would be lost) and no way to kill power to the individual flight controls other than ailerons, elevators, spoilers, and rudders via the overhead panel. The flaps have an emergency system called Alternate Flaps. It assumes that the entire A and B hydraulic systems have completely failed, so the trailing edge flaps are extended electrically via the overhead panel switches (not the main flap lever as shown here). But the leading edge slats have simple hydraulic actuators and can’t be extended electrically. So there is a standby hydraulic pump in the tail. This runs a hydraulic motor in the left wing fairing which itself runs another pump that draws hydraulic fluid from the dregs of the B system reservoir and out to the leading edge slats. It can only extend the slats, not retract them. So you pull the circuit breaker for the Standby hydraulic pump… and the slats can’t go out. At least until the FE pushes the circuit breaker back in. There would have been a lot of reason to do this from the early 80s on because 727s were gas guzzlers and were designed to fly at Mach 0.88 so when they slowed down to save fuel.. they flew in a nose-high attitude that created discomfort for passengers and crew and created more drag. Extending the flaps makes the plane more level and at the same thrust settings gives you more speed. This was why in the late 90s and early 2000s we installed a flap droop modification on 727s. It meant that you could no longer use 40 units of flap (which you don’t need to anyways) but it invoked installing longer rods on the aft flaps so they would stick out and down more and a false spar on the mid flap to get rid of the air gap when they were retracted. Why did Slat 7 fail? The plane exceeded its maximum Mach (Mmo) and rolled completely over. Mmo is for a clean wing.. not one with a slat sticking out. Of course it failed. And since A System hydraulics is holding it closed.. (even with a leak…. trust me… they leak ALL the time) no reason for it to extend other than one cowboy captain, one timid FO, one innocent FE… who the captain likely threatened if they ever told anyone the truth and are the reason we have FDRs and CVRs now.

@mattthrun-nowicki8641 Жыл бұрын

Except, you know, there’s no evidence any of this happened. The logic of the NTSB investigation went as follows: there’s 21 mins of bulk erased silence on the CVR, therefore the pilots must’ve intentionally bulk-erased it, therefore they must be hiding something (despite the fact that the incident occurred way more than 30 min before the plane came to a stop on the ground). Nevermind the fact that the electric cables that generate power for the CVR that originate in the wheel well are severely damaged (and went untested during the NTSB investigation, mind you)…nope- it must be intentional. They then go into the simulator (if a 727-200, not -100 like accident plane) and find they couldn’t replicate the FDR data AT ALL with their proposed “Boeing Scenario” of the alternate flap system. Same thing when they pile into a real 727 with test pilots and find they STILL can’t replicate the FDR data, so they decide to use an theretofore never used statistical method to force the results into their desired values (a method that was never used again), and voila…we knew it was the alternate flap deployment! Nevermind that their results contradicted Boeing’s analysis that the no 7 slat would’ve ripped apart far sooner than they thought (around FL300), nevermind that the debris field didn’t match their proposed narrative, nevermind that the NTSB discarded multiple eyewitness testimonies from multiple qualified individuals to favor one unqualified individual stating that the FE left and returned to the flight deck right before the incident, nevermind that the lead investigator Leslie Kampschorr was subsequently demoted for unethical practices, nevermind that the only pilot on the 3-person NTSB panel filed a minority dissent to the report, nevermind that no one on the plane could corroborate the right-then-left bank the NTSB postulated, nevermind that no other pilots had ever seen either of the pilots use the alternate flap deployment on previous flights, no matter than no passenger on the wing saw or felt the flaps extend, etc etc. There are some NTSB investigations from back in the day that seem so ass-backwards so as to be, at best useless, at worst, conspiratorial. TWA841 was the perfect example. Until the above discrepancies can be rectified, I maintain that nobody other than the pilots actually can say what happened aboard that plane that night.

@RiftWalker111 Жыл бұрын

@@mattthrun-nowicki8641 very interesting, if this is the case this very much has the same vibes to TWA-800 and how many cover ups were at best theorized, and at worst reality.

@EpicJoshua314 Жыл бұрын

Nope, this is what most likely happened. The evidence best supports that while cruising at 39,000 feet, the bolt to the outboard right aileron on TWA flight 841 fractured, causing the aileron to flutter and create the high frequency vibration Captain Hoot Gibson reported. As the aileron floated up, the plane banked to the right and turned off its heading, the autopilot tried to correct for this by moving the control wheel left. Once the control wheel turned more than 10°, the spoilers on the left wing deployed to aid in roll control, creating the buzzing sound. With the plane turning right and the autopilot commanding a left turn, the 727 was in a cross-controlled position. The yaw damper rate gyro and or coupler sensed discrepant rudder inputs which resulted in the lower rudder going into the hardover position, causing the plane to yaw severely right. In this condition the left wing produced more lift as a result; on sweptback planes like the 727, a large sideslip angle produces a large rolling moment. Although Hoot disconnected the autopilot and applied opposite aileron and upper rudder, with the lower rudder in the hardover position and limited roll control due to the right outboard aileron free-floating, his control inputs were insufficient to prevent TWA 841 from going into an uncontrollable spiral dive. When the crew lowered the landing gear, the over extension of the right main landing gear ruptured System A hydraulics which centered the rudder and allowed the pilots to recover from the dive. The No. 7 slat showed a lack of wear and was misaligned, meaning that it was held in place only by hydraulic pressure and aerodynamic forces. With the loss of hydraulics, the slat extended at 8,000 feet and ripped off almost immediately. Analysis of the No. 7 slat by the NTSB showed a lack of wear, was misaligned, and didn't lock into its locking mechanism, meaning that it was held in place only by hydraulic pressure and aerodynamic forces. With the loss of hydraulics, the slat extended at 8,000 feet and quickly ripped off. The other slats stayed retracted because they locked into their locking mechanisms.

@hoyboys1000 Жыл бұрын

These Smithsonian Channel great except - they never have a beginning or ending! 😆

@kc4cvh 3 ай бұрын

This dramatization treats the flawed NTSB report on the incident as gospel truth. Several important discrepancies between that report and known facts are examined in Scapegoat: A Flight Crew's Journey from Heroes to Villains to Redemption by Emilio Corsetti III.

@davidhudson4928 Жыл бұрын

If they would finish the story we would be informed why flap #7 never retracted like the rest of the flaps.

@gavincooper427 Жыл бұрын

It’s episode six of season 22 “Terror Over Michigan”

@GoatzombieBubba Жыл бұрын

Summary Uncontrolled descent Cause disputed: Leading edge slat failure (NTSB) Yaw damper induced lower rudder hardover (ALPA)

@arkpan4x4 6 ай бұрын

Why they Erase the CVR ?????after all that ??????

@44Glendon Ай бұрын

EXACTLY! Why erase IF you did NOTHING WRONG?

@44Glendon Ай бұрын

Please explain WHY erase the CVR if the pilots "did nothing wrong"?

@superstaraut Жыл бұрын

How can I watch the full episode please

@BillClay88 Жыл бұрын

Did you find it?

@gavincooper427 Жыл бұрын

episode six of season 22 Terror Over Michigan

@greenpegatrix3773 Жыл бұрын

I don't recognize this episode.

@stephen973 Жыл бұрын

What episode is this

@liammansour706 Жыл бұрын

I forgot there’s no show in my sentence…

@mg123rules Жыл бұрын

Anyone got the popcorn

@Boeing7.4.7 Жыл бұрын

Still amazing

@povertyspec9651 Жыл бұрын

You never see pilots try to go faster these days! They go as slow as they can to cut down fuel consumption.

@crashaviation7272 Жыл бұрын

May 4th night Star Wars night

@arober9758 Жыл бұрын

Very good job fellows!! Congratulations. Why don’t they ever ask the camera crew what happened?

@animegeek2488 Жыл бұрын

How many times do I have to tell you whenever you make a comment underneath anything aviation related to stop stealing people's comments! You basically took someone's comment that was made 11 minutes ago as your own which is straight up laziness! Make your own comment for the second paragraph instead of using someone else's!

@alawagedagoa Жыл бұрын

😂😂😂😂 Flight attendant Mark has never remembered seeing any cockpit member coming out of cockpit to go to the toilet 😂😂😂 He must have thought they all pee and poo in the cockpit itself 😂😂😂😂😂 And idiotic investigators too, who say, fight engineer leaves the cockpit to return the trays, when he says clearly that he goes for a bathroom break, while removing trays without waiting for attendants to come.

@ozzyphil74 6 ай бұрын

Hmm, way to distort what the Attendant said. He didn't say he never remembered crew using the toilet. He said he never remembers the crew bringing out their trays, that they always waited for the attendants to do it. Not the same thing Jose.

@strikezero01 Жыл бұрын

geez the camera man must be a SR-71 pilot, he immune to G force

@Superchad245 Жыл бұрын

im more impressed that he can time travel to 1979 to film this than being immune to G force :D

@benrakus4912 Жыл бұрын

your comment doesn't make sense SR71 pilots don't experience high Gs like a fighter pilot, it is not designed to do so, that would be a fighter jet, SR71 is just a high speed recon plane which would fly straight and level

@EpicJoshua314 Жыл бұрын

Nope, this pilot nor the flight crew did this maneuver at all. In fact, extending just the flaps to 2* and not the slats DOES NOT increase the plane’s speed. Also, while extending the slats at 39,000 feet does cause vibrations, the vibrations that this episode claims matched the vibrations on TWA 841’s FDR actually didn’t even come close and TWA 841 passengers who were taken up on test flights in order to determine if the vibrations with the slats extended at 39,000 feet produced the same vibrations stated that they did not. Boeing engineers and not pilots were the ones who wrote the final report and therefore lacked the knowledge that a pilot would have that extending just the slats doesn’t increase the speed - at the last second the NTSB agreed with Boeing and went with their conclusion despite having many flaws in it that even a student pilot who has just done their First Solo would determine. The slats were never extended in cruise nor did the slats have anything to do with the cause of the upset. 7 times in this show’s history they have stated or suggested that the investigative branch got the cause wrong (in the Aloha 243 episode they suggested the NTSB got it wrong, in UA 811 they stated the NTSB got the cause wrong in their first final report and in BEA 609/Munich air disaster episode they showed that the German investigators got the cause dead wrong and the pilot was not to blame), but it looks like they can no longer argue that the investigators got the cause wrong. If it was too controversial to state or even suggest the investigators got the cause wrong then the producers shouldn’t have even bothered to make an episode about TWA 841; it doesn’t take more than a few brain cells to realize that, but it looks like these producers have less than a few brain cells. Most people including today’s generation including myself would likely never know about the events of TWA 841 if not for this episode and that would be for the better to keep this flight crew from further being maligned.

@calvinnickel9995 Жыл бұрын

Flaps 2 does increase speed at lower power settings in an era of high fuel costs. This is exactly why we installed flap droop mods on 727s.

@EpicJoshua314 Жыл бұрын

@@calvinnickel9995 No, it's declared that the pilots did this in cruise to increase the speed. What you have stated is that at lower power settings and a slow airspeed, Flaps 2 does increase the speed. In cruise, the airspeed is not low, nor are the throttles at a low setting (they are at a reduced power setting, but not below half thrust). Therefore, that further proves the point that Boeing/NTSB and the episode are wrong.

@liammansour706 Жыл бұрын

The NTSB National Transportation Safety Board didn’t know that it was a TWA 800. Not an 841. It’s OK to make mistakes for videos sometimes. The NTSB was working hard to find out what happened to Transworld 800. Salute for all the pilots in Transworld 800 they are no survivors that was real odd. What happened was something melted into the wires show the plane was cut in half like cutting carrots. And it fell into the Dead Sea no survivors only two survived… The pilots survive the crash they knew how to swim. All the passengers and crew in first class economy class and business class did not survive only the pilots.

@tomato-v8x Жыл бұрын

And you apparently can’t comprehend that TWA 800 and TWA 841 are two completely different flights.

@samwheat1302 Жыл бұрын

Liam- Question: Do you realize that TWA 841 happened in 1979? How can they be working on TWA800 that happened twenty years later? Two completely different flights, twenty years apart. And you have many things wrong relating to TWA800. First, TWA800 crashed in Atlantic Ocean just off New York City, not Dead Sea. Second, the fore fuselage was torn off by explosion in the center wing fuel tank mostly liked to be caused by arcing in a wire bundle inside the tank - the plane wasn't cut in half. Third, there were ZERO survivors, not even the pilots.

@thisperson2517 Жыл бұрын

i like how confidently incorrect you are

@JustAspect Жыл бұрын

"The pilots survive the crash they knew how to swim" LMFAOOOO ARE YOU DUMB

@StopTheCapp Жыл бұрын

Why don’t they ever ask the camera crew what happened?

@goodguyyt Жыл бұрын

Same thing everytime No joke that's overrated thing now

@MyulMang Ай бұрын

fr way too overrated

@OfficalGamer-mv2qo Жыл бұрын

Hey Smithsonian Channel Aviation Nation, if the engineer turned off the slaps to prevent it along with the flaps I would say this: WHAT THE HELL DID U JUST DO the engineer: I put the slaps breaker on the normal position where it should be me as a pilot: GOSH WE R DOOMED NOW I WILL PASS OUT IF THE BLOOD DRAINS OUT OF MY HEAD WE NEED TO RECOVER BEFORE WE ALL PASS OUT the engineer: yep we need to recover