100% Paul's video reinforced my experience in the field testing bird shot on targets at in home distances. I found that it not great outside my house. But inside is another story.

This is a great discussion and Chris, I concur. My nickels worth: I have shot a lot ALOT of 00 buck and Slug. I would choose neither, exclusively, for home defense due to over penetration. I agree with Paul Harrel's assessment. And let us be honest the objective here is to dissuade and convince the home invader to retreat (leave the premises) and if they die within the process then that was their choice. I am not looking to kill anyone on the onset but to get them to leave through vigorous and aggressive negoiations. Remember we never shoot to kill and keep that in mind for after the shooting scenario. Two things with bird shot for the average home. A) a face full or chest full of shot at 10 yards or less of #2 or #6 is going to stop an attacker (it may kill them it may not, but they will rethink their choices in life for sure). We are not talking about an assault over the beach scenario here, we're talking about thievery. B) we don't have to worry about over penetration across my house and into my neighbor's home with #2 or #6. With 00 shot I would have to at least worry about loved ones down the hall etc etc. Slug rounds; yeah I would be patching a lot of holes down the street and hopefully thats all I would have to patch; likely to get sued etc etc. It was suggested to me (many years ago) to load the following; Three, Two, One (with extended tube or 3,1,1); birdshot, 00 buck and then Slug. According to the FBI most shootings are 2.3 to 2.5 shots. The theory being if we get past the first three rounds, we may need to up the game (shot placement and back stop are now considerations at this point). This was, in my training and experience, a bit over the top but... you have to decide. I switched to a KSG now. The KSG is easier to wield indoors; I can attach a super bright flashlight (my preferred home defense non-lethal fires weapon) and it works similarly to a Remington 870. The load out is now whatever the situation may dictate for camping or home defense. A bright strobing flashlight can be just as effective in the house as the shot gun. For those who don't train or don't want to use a gun (no worries) ; may I recommend a strong strobe flashlight and bear spray and training again and again.

Chris Dunn 10 yards with a "full choke" shotgun that has been patterned using thee inch magnum turkey loads? I doubt it. I can tell you that pattern will stay tight up to more like 15 or 20 yards before it opens up enough to be less than lethal. I would agree that 10 yards would be about it for a tube cylinder bore. Chokes make a difference and so does the velocity. Try a full choke with a three inch magnum turkey load.

@@the1sgjohns "Remember we never shoot to kill " LOL - You are shooting someone in the face and chest with a shotgun.

@@rbm6184 you’re right. Magnum rounds make a difference and the use of a choke makes a considerable difference on how much the group opens up and at what distance. My initial comment was more a general thought. I’ve never tested this personally but I witnessed a gentleman make wax slugs using birdshot. The result was, a large mass of birdshot essentially being turned into a slug and being able to hit targets at 50 yards. In that case it didn’t increase the damage of the birdshot but only the effective range. That’s why it’s important to train and know how your gun patterns with the way you have it setup.

Ouch.

Yes we all now that!!!!!!!!!!!!! It doesn't make it good for homedefense. This hasn't even been a conversation for years.

Well, maybe if he wasn’t overweight it’d have missed him.

@@ahumblepoet There is that.

@@colecole3352 Just saying it beats throwing the shells at them. I run 2 and 3/4 buck shot personally.

Thug life🦍

The fact that the guy was able to drive away, though, means that he was not stopped immediately. If someone is amped up on drugs and is coming at me with a knife, it doesn't help me if he eventually dies a minute later. I need him to stop right now.

@@nopc9728 Live like a thug, fall like one.

OO buck 🎯

@@sbreheny "The fact that the guy was able to drive away, though, means that he was not stopped immediately. " Bull. Obviously the threat was stopped and retreated. Self-DEFENSE is NOT about killing someone.

Criminal is gonna have a bad day.

There was an ASP video of a guy taking a shotgun blast to his arm. It was shredded, material hanging off of his arm. Pretty traumatic wound.

bird shot is lethal if its 3 yards or less, 4 yards if its fully choked. so 9-12 ft or long spear range. thats what ive seen from the plywood and meat target tests. after those ranges the shot pattern opens up to where its no longer a large mass/clump of shot. after that it loses power exponentially^2. so a shot at 5 yards can be half or a quarter of the power it was at 4 yards. a 4 inch pattern has a quarter of the power of when it was at a 2 inch pattern. a single yard could be the difference of an intruder getting shot in the chest and the shot stopping on his breast bone letting him grappling you and his heart being hamburger.

As Clint at Thunder Mountain said, "With a shotgun at close range expect some overspray."

@@dylconnaway9976 I saw that one, it was somewhere in South America with a dispute about money from purchasing food, like 1 dollar or 2.. the the woman son or husband shot the guy like 3 ft away and blew a hole in his arm,. Guy who got shot just looked at his arm in shocked.

We r r

7

Interesting you say this, because I have my first couple loads of my 12 ga. set for #4 birdshot for better hit probability in the middle of the night when my head may be foggy. My shot will easily be inside 20 feet. My next load up is #4 buckshot and that will seal the deal. If I'm on the streets, #1 buckshot is my go to; better hit probability than double aught & just as lethal.

I'm a big fan of #4 buck. It falls right in the middle of the entire range of bird/buckshot and makes a good compromise for self-defense... not ideal for either birds OR bucks, however. AND, the majority of my "self-defense" birdshot is #4 Heavy Field loads.

We have a couple boxes 3 inch mag turkey loads, I have never tested them, 2 3/4 00 loaded right now...have a box of #4 buckshot, too...our engagement range about 12-13 feet, honestly I think #6 game load would work just fine...

I know who you are talking about. Finn Aagaard is who you are thinking off, good writer and he knew his stuff and left us all to soon.

@@GeorgeSemel That's the name. It was a good article. He simulated the human body with hot dogs and pork ribs and tried a bunch of different guns on them. Well done, repeatable research.

The guys in this video are saying birdshot (the smaller stuff) might actually bounce off a thick door and bounce back your way?

​@@mikem.2078the guys in the video are probably sponsored by high times

Damn right !

Up to about 20 yds nobody’s walking through that and still coming. #4 Nitro Turkey is my birdshot of choice.

Run low recoil then. At 1200 ft per second, double ougt buck will not overpenetrate. For every shot size under double-ought you use, step up 50 to 75 ft per second. If you're using a number four buck, just to get the fastest stuff you can. Number four buckshot barely reaches the internal organs, so it's not going to overpenetrate. In my personal opinion I would not consider it for home defense because it's so unreliable for reaching internal organs. I consider number one to be the ideal buckshot load. The pellets are large enough that they always reach internal organs, and small enough that you basically don't have to worry about overpenetration at all. If you want to do a mental exercise with home defense ammunition, ask yourself if you would trust it to stop a charging feral hog. If the answer is no, you shouldn't be loading it for home defense.

Tf?! 😲

Yes, same here. If it's my wife using the shotgun then I expect the scenario would be her and the kids hunkered together in a back corner with the shotgun aimed at the bedroom door. I want her to be able to shoot through the door if the doorknob jiggles. I had not considered light shot ricochet inside the room. But she's also tiny, and 00 Buck may be too punishing on her for a follow up shot. #4 may be a better all around choice.

Yes, I work at a gun range and we don't allow birdshot or buckshot, only slugs in shotguns. The reason is, the backstop is steel plate covered in rubber chunks, and the bird/buck shot will bounce right back, while the slugs stay downrange. I've been there when someone did use buckshot, and some of it did come back, we were lucky no one got hurt!

@@deniswauchope3788 that and jokers can't stop shooting out the lights! They do that on the pistol range too... grrrr!

@@jwilsonhandmadeknives2760 it's the weight of the projectile that causes recoil. 1 1/4 oz 00 buckshot has no more recoil than 1 1/4 oz #8 birdshot given the same powder charge.

@@dougdouglass1248 given the same powder charge, yes

It sound like your friend has an active imagination.

@@BatCaveOz How dare you say something so rude. He happens to be a fine physician and 2nd amendment advocate.

@@BatCaveOz sounds like you’re a dumbass. What he says is correct and gangs do in fact use whatever ammo they can get their hands on… birdshot is cheap and plentiful

Pattern will be wider faster

You're talking about a group of shooters with no regard for background/collateral damage.

Gobble gobble muthaf*****

Or ya just might really piss em off!

​@@Cageey1117That's why you ALTERNATE loads for self-defense. You don't need to kill him. Just clipping him is enough to get him to leave you alone and run. Clipping him AT ALL is better than a miss. It mentally distracts him and allows you to FOLLOW UP with a buck shot.

​@@dab0331thats movie thinking. Not how things really work

@@Darthdoodoo No, that's tactical thinking. It's the same way you can use hollow points with FMJ in the same magazine. The same way you use regular rounds and TRACER rounds in the same belt on a machine gun, genius. Starting off with birdshot will increase the chance of you hitting him before he hits you without running the risk of accidentally hitting a family member in another room in your initial state of panic. And once he's hit (or even if he's not), he'll either scram and flee for his life, or he'll get behind cover and fight to the death. Once he's behind cover and you're sure he's here to fight, then that's when you want the better penetration and more concentrated circles of buckshot.

#4 does seem like the sweet spot, wish it was as plentiful and affordable as 00

@@jclaxton78 12 gauge reloading is real easy. You can reload it far cheaper than you can buy it. Dosnt take much at all to get into it.

I tested #4 at 5 feet into an old mattress and also a sofa. It penetrates, but not much power on the other side. Just something to keep in mind.

#4 BUCK is the “FBI load.” Lesser shot is not considered adequate. Do not expect any shot to spread noticeably within the confines of a home. DIY loads have issues at trial, due to the lack of reference data.

Do you have any links to court cases where a citizen was convicted for shooting an attacker only because, or primarily because, the citizen used their own handload ammunition? I'd really like to read any stories regarding that you can link.

Still better off using buck. In that scenario #4 buck inside of 15 feet.

@@Rumblestrip that is your opinion. I have personally seen an interior apartment wall stop number 6 hi brass, which will cause an absolutely Grievous wound against a human being.

In my house it would be impossible to shoot further than 20 feet. #2 or #4 birdshot would be ideal. Especially 12 gauge magnums!!

@@Valorius I have seen tests of #4buck on walls as there is not much penatration of construction materials.

Bottom line is if it’s not good enough to penetrate a few sheets of drywall it’s not going to penetrate properly on an intruder if push comes to shove. Everyone focuses so much on the magic ammo that won’t penetrate walls but will stop a threat, it doesn’t exist. Closest thing to this magic is called shot placement. If you hit your target the rounds won’t have much energy out the other side

You're wrong bird shot isn't right at all

We have 00 loaded at the moment, but at our intended engagement range, 12-13 feet, i can understand arguments for smaller buckshot, or even smaller loads, such as #5 or #6...birdshot would probably work okay at that distance, but even a little heavier would ease my mind...we are running a coach gun, hopefully the first shell induces the desired result...there is backup on hand, but again, hopefully not needed...

We have some, i've never tested any of it...00 recoils plenty enough for the missus, 3" mag turkey load might knock her backwards...heck, it takes sweet talking to get her practice with low brass birdshot...she has fired 00, knows it will recoil, but will do what is necessary...in fact, about time to shoot a few shells again...we use a stoeger coach gun, we're big believers in simple, and more simple when hands are shaking...

I agree, it makes an excellent choice if you don't mind the extra recoil...the extra mass really has a noticable effect on the target.

I think a choked Barrel might work against you in some situations.

@@Valorius -- The more compact the flock of pellets is, the more damage they will do to the perp.

@@gregb6469 at 21 feet/7yds an open cylinder gun can have a pattern from 6-10", which makes face shots a very real option. A blast of no6 high brass to the face at 7yds....ouch. All depends on the situation.

Even more so if the intruder is hit in the face. Pretty sure they could be blinded at minimum.

Respectfully, I've investigated and witnessed shotgun incidents with birdshot and in my opinion choke size is irrelevant at 10 yards and under. Center mass, head or groin the recipient is going to need assistance to carry on to the ER or morgue. The wounds are beyond description.

Angry birds?

😂ha ha ha ha!

Yep. Those modified birdshot rounds can be used at a great distance and still have excellent stopping power.

Almost funny that there seems to be more accidental shootings than shootings for protection.

Oh yeah, waterfowl and turkey loads are definite hurt at in home distances...

Longest straight distance in my home is 33 feet. That’s 11 yards. 1 ounce of 7.5 at that distance will be sending 300 + pellets into a 12 to 18 diameter circle……that will cut you in half. Most of the sight lines in my house are half that distance so 15 or so feet. That means a fist sized diameter string with over three hundred projectiles in it. That would cause substantial tissue damage. Remember they use powdered lead loads to break locks and get through doors. Any one watching this that has had a trigger happy numb nut shoot a quail or dove too close can testify what a mess birdshot will make…..a red mist and feathers.

Good compromise

So, #4 Buckshot, for the newbies, is 0.24inch diameter lead balls. So, about the size and weight of a .25ACP bullet (close enough), with a 12Gauge shell being loaded with up to 45 ( generally around 40) pellets in a 3 inch magnum shell, around 25-30 pellets in a 2.5 inch shell. Some folks seem to think they could shrug off a .25ACP or a .22LR hit ( I’ve yet to see anyone actually volunteer), but having 25 or more of them is another thing altogether 😜

@@andrewallason4530 Yep, and depending upon the loading the shot shell velocity of #4 buck will be about 1200 to 1500 fps out of the muzzle. I do not think th .25 Browning is near that range, probably more like 700 fps. I hope to never have to unleash the buckshot on an intruding threat; but when the goal is to stop the threat, that is big medicine.

@@rooster3019 good point, Cock. Significantly higher velocity on the pellets.

@@andrewallason4530 You are mostly right. It is about the same diameter, difference is the weight. The .25 ACP is about 50 gr, a single #4 buck is about 20 gr. But again getting a swarm of 25+ of those in your direction will make a number on you.

Yup, the whole video is based on anecdote and conjecture. Makes me question all the other information they've shared in prior videos. How one believes something might work in the real world can often prove quite different when one actually perceives that something. I got my start in EMS in '91 so I'm not too far behind you, and have also worked some of the more "lively" neighborhoods in my area as both EMT and paramedic.

Ah, a fellow #4 Buck King

Killed several deer with #4 buck, they just fell over. Dead in their ttracks.

I like the #4 buck as well. Seems like a good compromise (at least to my non-expert opinion).

@@Ash_95 No, you’re right. For most “defensive” engagements, #4 in a home at the longest distance in the home will have the best pattern, have enough penetration to clear a torso, but not have much left after the fact, and the highest probability of hitting vitals. Basically; It’s the smallest pellet that will achieve desired penetration on a human, and therefore has the highest pellet count. “What’s the smallest pellet that will do that job without being overkill?” No 4.

@@TonyTheGoon thanks, appreciate it. Take care.

A common load for .410 is 3 pellets of 000...those pellets bigger, and just as fast as 9mm...say ouch...I must admit I not sure what the next, smaller shot for .410...is it #4...? that would work,too...

You should never shoot your gun to scare people off... you only shoot your gun in life threatening situations and in those instances you shoot to kill. What you are saying is a terrible idea and will get people in way more trouble, or even killed.

I personally would use a slug as my first shell, but since I care about my neighbors, I think I will follow your advice and use the babiest of birdshot first. You are very wise

I wouldn't trust that one bit. It won't avoid any of the legal trouble of a lethal round. Firearm fired = deadly force. Period. It might be less deadly in terms of outcome, but it will at best significantly wound. On a practical level, I don't love the idea of any round that is less likely to stop the threat.

Only Joe Biden tells you to shoot a warning shot with your shotgun. Sorry, but you usually get one opportunity to survive a home invasion. 00 buck shot will allow you to call the sheriff to bring a body bag for him, not you.

Advantage of the shotgun 12gauge buck is much large wounds that are very lethal with the tradeoff of requiring pump actions for maximum reliability

I have seen so many articles like this, they are clearly not written by hunters, I have seen large birdshot go right through the broadside of a roe buck, granted they are a small deer species but still the penetration would be more than enough to kill a person. The cartridge was rottweil waidmannsheil.

#6, and #5, commonly used for squirrel, rabbit, critters about that size...at close range it would be pretty messy upon someone...

.22 lr is extremely lethal when shot placement is the key factor. Many assassins have used this round, especially with a silencer for decades

Not trying to be snarky but #4 buckshot is not .177 of an inch it is .24 of an inch I think you are talking about #4 birdshot .

@@dmgthree6051 My bad, typo. I meant #4 birdshot

Have you ever thought about #1 buck? A little bigger and heavier than #4 buck a few less pellets but still more pellets than 00 and normally a heavier overall payload than 00.

Yeah, pretty much anything has a chance of cutting through drywall.

A Red Ryder can shoot through drywall.

#7 & #8 birdshot is fine if you can smell each other's breath. For any distances further, you are trying to bleed someone into submission, which you may as well do with a folding pocket knife if you think you have that kind of time. Cue the CCTV of the girl getting peppered in the face at 8ft by birdshot TWICE only for her to just run out of the room, able to see and open the door to do so. It's #4 birdshot and lower that's fine in general.

True. But I think all of us, including Mr Harrell, will agree that if you have an option _other_ than birdshot available, you should probably take it.

@@EtherFox which CCTV shot is that? If it is the one with the would be Mass shooter that was stopped in a college dorm by pepper spray and a guy wrestling him to the ground, the blast that hit the girl hit her dead in the chest. The same chest that she had heavy textbooks covering when she was hit. If it's another case I would love to see the video.

@@Valorius That's probably the one. It was enough to dissuade me from ever using birdshot as well if I had any choice in the matter. Active Self Protection also had another video with a gas station owner recently beating an armed robber to the punch and tagging him with birdshot (distance was counter to to front door) and while it did the job of convincing him he had better places to be, the results were not emphatic. I've also read anecdotes of at least one police officer forgetting to switch out jis training ammo (birdshot) for buck, tagging a suspect at close range to little effect, and getting shot and killed for his trouble. I'm not saying birdshot can't be lethal or can't incapacitate people at very close range. It *can* and there's sufficient anecdotal and empirical evidence to back that up. But IMO the margin for error is unnacceptably small for me; I would have to be living in a crowded apartment with tissue paper walls before I even remotely considered it... and if that was the case and overpen/collateral damage was that much of a real issue, I would probably just look to less-lethal or melee options at that point than trying to shoehorn a firearm into the role. I consider Magnum or Plated #4 Buck loads my minimum for "home defense where I may want to limit overpenetration" situations. But in general I actively prefer buffered #1 buckshot or FliteControl 00 Buck. To each their own, of course.

@@SaftonYT to me viability starts at high brass number 6, and goes from there. The more Rural and the fewer kids/family members you have the bigger it should get. If you live in a cabin in Alaska alone stoke that sucker up with triple 0 buck.

Garand thumb did a demonstration using birdshot out to 30 yards, and even number eight shot can be extremely effective. Once the spread opens up your entire face gets peppered: eyes nose mouth.... you don't want that to be you.

A shotgun blast is very bad news inside of any normal house. Unless you're shooting down the entire length of a hallway I don't think you'll see a round that won't work if the shot was aimed at all. For sure 00 Buck is going to be the king. But thinking defensively- for a woman sitting in the back corner of a bedroom with the kids, shotgun pointed at the door and waiting for Mr Bad Guy to come through the door- pick your poison. I'd rather she have a round that she can make follow up shots with.

@red9man2130 So you don't have any furniture in your apartment? No chairs, couches, dining room furniture? What do you think that bad guy is going to do when he catches you in the corner of his eye with a firearm, stand still and wait? If he ducks behind furniture or any other obstacles in your place, is that birdshot going to defeat that obstacle? I don't think so... I wouldn't be willing to bet on that if it was me.

@@Jazzman-bj9fq Buy crappy IKEA furniture and turn that cover into concealment lol

@@VCBird6 Lol, it doesn't matter how well made the furniture is, it isn't going to stop 00 buck. So most people's furniture is just concealment, NOT cover by any means... Unless of course if you're crazy enough to try birdshot ;D

I don't think Buckshot to the arm would have been any more physically incapacitating than the birdshot was. As the perp said, "he blew my arm off." The fact that an 80 year old man with birdshot stopped a young man with an AR-15 is probably what we might call a clue.

​@@Valorius Instead of condescending to me, maybe you should get a clue by simply rereading my comment. In particular, note the distinction I drew between a psychological stop and physical incapacitation. And yes, in fact buckshot will do much more physical damage to anyone or anything. It's not even debatable. Maybe educate yourself a little before trying to talk down to someone who knows what he''s talking about. If the robber had better emotional fitness, he could have stayed where he was and killed Mr Cope. Cope got lucky. Another attacker who's mentally tougher would have fought through the pain and killed him. That's all. You're dismissed.

@@rickh9396 Buckshot does not do more physical damage, any Magnum 12 gauge load does enormous damage. Some of them however pose a far less significant over penetration risk. You are simply wrong. No matter how hard you try to be right.

@@rickh9396 also tough guy, let's see some of those videos of real world gun fights where unarmored attackers fight through 12 gauge hits to kill people. You're the epitome of everything wrong with comment sections and gun forums.

Another thought is the perpetrator was struck in the arm...people need to be told a shotgun must be AIMED, just like any other firearm...the pellets don't just magically zig and zag after the bad guy...

Pardon, but I'm one of those new shotgun owners (pick mine up early October). Could you explain a few words on what you mean by choke, tight choke, etc? The gun I'll be getting is the Savage Arms 320.

@@mikem.2078 Your "choke" is just that. It "constricts" the barrel. Tighter the choke, tighter the shot pattern. Buckshot, I'd go improved cylinder, or cylinder. With removable chokes, i.e. a non fixed choke barrel NEVER shoot without a choke present. You'll damage the threads. Slugs, improved cylinder. I need to back up. Degrees, from lowest to tightest Cylinder Skeet Improved cylinder Modified Full Extra full Those are the common chokes. You also have two variations on Modified. "Improved modified" and "light modified". Modified is the "go to" choke. Especially for bird hunting. IM is a tiny bit tighter, LM a tiny bit looser. I shoot improved modified on ducks. Slugs, you do not want to shoot tighter than IC, poor performance, possible damage. Buck shot, it's a toss up. All shot will spread over time/distance. How fast/close do you want it spreading? So I use IM on ducks, yes. But not during teal season of if there's a lot of woodies in close, I'll go IC. Smaller birds, close range. In a home situation I'd use cylinder to IC for buckshot. In a hunting application, coyote or one of the very few states that allow "buckshot" for deer, modified. In a defense situation, you're dealing at such close distances that you'll not get much spread. Assuming it's 12 Guage. So much more on shotguns as a defensive weapon. From heavy bird loads, to slugs, sabots, 'cut-shells', barrel length etc. There's a lot of possibilities. I love all my guns but I'd argue that nothing is more versatile than a shotgun. 1 huge downside, zero concealment.

A zealous prosecutor would make a big issue of using cut shells.

Was not in LE, but my homespun tests back your info. Never had any flechettes, though.

I have always used #4 buck also. I watched them used in combat in central America in the 80s. They were very effective. I have one #4 in the chamber, the first one out of the tube is also #4 buckshot. Then the rest are super buck 0000 shot. Which is .38 in diameter. I figure if the first two haven't stopped the intruder(s), I want something really powerful.

@@stephenedwards5038: NIJ specifies standards regarding ballistic vests with new standards coming down from time to time, as I’ve been out for a bit 101.6 may not even be the most recent. It those standards identify both threats and service periods, that is the time you can actually use a vest in service which used to be a lot longer then it is now with 101.6 dropping the time to 5 years which for a lot of departments gets pricy as that could be 5 best in a career. We would therefor have old vests on hand, which while not issues would still be used from time to time, for ride alongs, or as backstops, or just used as extra,protection. We would also take vests out of service or storage for training and shoot them with different things to both test them and reassure officers that they worked. I’ve been shot at and was thankfully wearing a vest at the time, though more thankfully wasn’t hit at all as it can hurt quite a bit. I’ve personally seen our old 3A level vests take a lot of rounds without a penetration, from standard weapons. The 12 gauge flechette rounds however sailed right through the vests like they weren’t even there, including after hitting them with over 30-40 handgun rounds, to the point that the normally 1/2” vests were maybe 3” thick just from all the crap in them. They were a scary round and the ballistic penetration through soft body armor was the reason people chose to carry them because frankly shotguns suck against body armor; while they transfer a hell of a force they told come anywhere close to getting through with vests easily taking dozens of 12 gauge 3 1/2” slugs without any signs of penetration.

@@JohnGalt-vr3lx: While mixes loading can be limited in law enforcement guns my personal wildlife shotgun is similar to yours except I have slugs at the tail end. With training or just practices skill the ammo choice becomes less important than the shot placement and use but at home I error on the side of limiting penetration to that which will be effective enough to stop a threat as it may not be me shouldering the shotgun. People can come from an expert source or level and say what is best, to me best is what works for you, what you’re comfortable with, and what you’ll actually use as you know what’s best for you. I have a friend that still uses rock salt for home defense loads and that’s on them but like bird shot some people just don’t understand some threats won’t stop until they are stopped. My uncle still believes just racking a shotgun will drive people out of his house while peeing themselves but as a trained LEO I’ve seen people that just won’t stop even after being his with chemical agents and a taser they just kept coming; I can’t speak for anyone else but I want to be able to stop the threat in the moment because all the though problems/experiments don’t mean anything when the person is looking at you in your house and doesn’t just run out. I’m glad people I know don’t see the worst in people as they can live better lives but unfortunately or fortunately I prepare for the worst and hope for the best because I’ve seen just how bad people can be. I prefer an AR ballistically and for effectiveness of fire as well as ease of use but do also have a tactical shotgun loaded; I shoot 3-gun so I still keep it staged but for years the shotgun was my go-to defensive long gun. A pump shotgun seems to, at least for the time being, be a safe choice in restrictive states and can be great defensively as long as people train as I’ve seen people, even officers, under stress forget to pump another round in just trying to keep pulling the trigger. I don’t think everyone needs massive training just practice but practice under stress, at least to me, is a must and something I do with my family because if they need to use a gun it’s going to be under stress.

@@libertarian1637 I know that feeling. We were allowed to carry only ammo issued to us. Had to use dept issued sidearm with dept issued ammo. Before they mandated you have to carry their weapon. Which was a .40 Beretta. Never liked that round and still don't. With modern tech, 9mm is as effective as 10mm while being smaller lighter and carry more rounds

I saw 4 buck in the gun store last weekend and 1 buck at walmart so it is so things are getting better.

So don't use it

Small problem is seems #4 buck is hardly available. I've only found one and it's $20 for box of 5 shells, or $4 a round. Should I get it anyway?

I didn’t know there was a #1 buckshot.

We have some #1 buck for our 16 gauge, an old Remington Sportsman...it sees a few shells (#6 gameload) every couple of years to check function...things are really bad if that old shotgun ever has to be used for real...but, it does work...

@@JG54206 next size smaller than 0 buckshot...bigger than #2 buckshot...

People aren't made of formica and particle board

@@veldin25 Exactly my point.

I patterned mine with #4 buckshot for the length of the living room. In hindsight, I should probably have done it at the shooting range instead.

@@dotar9586 lol

Refer you to Doc Neil right up above...

You are addressing two separate issues. Buckshot has higher lethality by comparison. Birdshot is less likely to kill family members as it passes through walls. And I've never found a human willing to be the target of birdshot.

I am of a similar mindset. The first three rounds in my semi-automatic Home Defense shotgun are 3-in Magnum 1 and 7/8 oz no.4 hardened lead turkey shot. They are followed up by three rounds of two and three quarter inch number four 34 pellet Magnum buckshot. Anything left standing after that gets the honor of a 1700fps 600 grain brenneke Magnum slug.

I shot deer with those Brenneke slugs. It takes them right off their feet/ hooves. Out of 6 deer shot with the Brenneke slugs. I had 1 go maybe 5 yds after impact. They just lay them out.

@@brianwalsh6581 I keep a stash of them handy in case of T Rex Invasion. LOL

I don't remember if he did it with heavy clothing but brass fetcher did some gel tests of bird shot

@@JohnSmith-fp9li Thank you

@@JohnSmith-fp9li I think I saw a couple of those videos...they all looked painful...

@@PetuniaIii-pd1ww on that I completely agree.

@@JohnSmith-fp9li you all judge which is better

Things that never happened.

@@jakeoutdoors9600 ok mr know it all

@@jakeoutdoors9600 found the guy who uses bird shot for HD lmao

⬆THIS is a plan that I can get behind ⬆

Nothing “barely” about it, it’s either legal or not

Many many many manufacturers make 18in barrel length shotguns. There’s nothing special or unique about your legal length barrels.

@@gunsforevery1 no kidding Capt Obvious? Great detective work!

@The Roller What’s the point of trying to act like some billy badass with your “barley legal” shotguns? Oh wow you use birdshot and 00 buck! Better watch out for you and your “barley legal” common shotguns.

Hydrostatic shock doesn't occur unless the projectile is moving in excess of 2200fps. It's the massive multiple wound channels that make shotguns deadly. Even if the tiny pellets of birdshot were going fast enough to cause hydrostatic shock, they don't have the mass to reach the vital organs.

@@KeeperOfTheOath funny all that energy has to go somewhere and I have heard and seen hydrostatic shock with 9mm and .45 bullets that are well under the speed you gave. The shock is product of introduction of energy into closed system and is function of amount of energy introduced not speed of projectile.

@@jcgardner5852 what you have seen is temporary cavity. All rounds produce a temporary cavity. Hydrostatic shock is the bullet causing damage far from the bullet impact. Brain hemorrhage, heart and nerve damage, Ect. For it to occur, you need to dump a lot of energy, very deep into the body near the major arteries. So if you've seen so much of of it, you must be a hunting butcher or autopsy technician. As for where the energy goes? Ejecta and shallow tissue damage. Birdshot is *locally* devastating. But you still need to get that energy out of the surface tissue and muscle and down into the vitals and arteries. If you want something small and light that won't over penetrate, run #4 buck.

@@KeeperOfTheOath yes I know what hydrostatic shock is and what I observed is result of pressure from energy dumped into system creating damage and stopping functions due to the non-compressability of water then pressing on organs which are in turn damaged. I am a biologist and know very well how much (very little) of that type of pressure it takes to create damage. And a shotgun slug delivers a massive amount of energy into fragile system at much less than 2200 feet per second that velocity may apply when looking at lighter smaller projectiles but when dealing with energy or large heavy ones same effects much less velocity. That is what made Roy Weatherby's name small projectile high velocity to produce as much damage and shock as larger slower projectile.

#4 buck would do the same a little better lol

Yeah just shoot em in the face, it's so easy

An 1 1/8 oz load of #4 bird shot will be devastating out to 30' ft even out of a cylinder bore. Test it for yourself. See Paul Harrel's channel.

Neither #4 bird or buck are easy to find, and both tend to be rather pricey.

A Winchester model 74 is a .22 rifle

Ironically I prefer #1 buck EXCEPT for apt dwellers. #4 buck might still be too large.

A lot of people say number 1 buck is best.

@@Makingnewnamesisdumb goodluck finding in 12ga

@@mblake0420 yeah, I don't think I've ever seen it. #4 gets the job done perfectly fine and I'd think it would be much safer if you were concerned about overpenetration.

@@Makingnewnamesisdumb out of a cylinder bore, with the right loading, even armor wouldn't help much, too many projectiles