Solid-State Fan vs PCB

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Solid-State Fan vs PCB

Рет қаралды 102,262

Carl Bugeja

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 189

@georgemathieson6097 2 жыл бұрын

Just saying, your logo on screen at the beginning is nearly exactly the right size to house the KZfaq mobile pause button in the middle! (When in portrait)

@ClayTheFoxx 2 жыл бұрын

True

@knightdeluxegaming 2 жыл бұрын

damn coincidence

@sarthakdeore1815 2 жыл бұрын

Consider joining the FBI mate. They are still having problems figuring out what actually happened on January 6th.

@hiroshrosh3535 2 жыл бұрын

you could stiffen up the bending part so it doesn't bend as far, more like the actual solid state fans, and use the magnets the coil is attracted to to guide the air and channel it by placing them parallel to the coil

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

Definitely! this was kind of what the first version was doing but my goal then shifted to hit the 180deg angle.. For v2 I am going to add sensors underneath to detect the flip automatically and i can defiantly tweak it to prevent the hit

@OkammakO 2 жыл бұрын

@@CarlBugeja I'm also curious if the fan efficiency will rise with a smaller swept angle, perhaps getting bernoulli on your side with a more unidirectional flow. That said, aerodynamics is the darkest of all the dark arts, even more sinister than RF.

@brainwater 2 жыл бұрын

@@CarlBugeja would increasing the frequency prevent a full 180 flap by switching before it got all the way to the magnet? Also, couldn't an extra flexible end swish the air away like what happens on the pizo fans?

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@insanegammer109 2 жыл бұрын

You are trying to drive the entire fan "blade" length instead of trying to drive a magnetic base at a resonant frequency of the attached blade, which is what the piezoelectric fan is doing. There is also much more risk of traces failing due to work hardening of the copper when you are trying to drive the actuator a full +/- 90° bend.

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

you're right.. but i was aiming to explore something different than driving the thing at resonance (i mentioned this at the end of the video) so i might explore the resonance option in v2 and comparing it with flapping .. i think the results would be interesting considering than both options will be made from pcbs

@yibofan6855 2 жыл бұрын

@@CarlBugeja I think the resonance instead of the whole length is important for moving air forward. As bird wings and fish tails all bend a little at the tip when flapping. Also a connection in a "s" shape instead of straight might last longer.

@PAkhramchuk 2 жыл бұрын

@@yibofan6855 Yep, on my humble opinion they should be bigger, flexible and in resonance to produce a "running wave" like more expensive design does

@t1d100 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting. A proper housing would improve the airflow, of course.

@juliannojungle 2 жыл бұрын

AWESOME video!!! Totally agree that reducing the angle will increase lifetime, but specially will improve air flow, since it's going all the way to 180° it's actually pulling while at the same time in lower angles it's pushing. Reducing the angle to about 90° (45° or less for each side) it will only push. But since the magnets are attached to the base, they block air inlet. Will definitely work better with some 3d printed support so the magnets doesn't touch the board (just enough to create an air intake) and so the air could flow alongside the flexible pcb.

@izzieb 2 жыл бұрын

Are we going to start to see more affordable solid state fans from the community and can we call it "The Flappening"?

@ChrisMuncy 2 жыл бұрын

Carl, always love the videos you release. THose flappy bits you make are so unusual they shouldn't work. Nice job on the research and getting them going. Your enthusiasm for the flappy bits show, even through your failures.

@gth042 2 жыл бұрын

A pair of these set to seal against either end of a tube might be usable as a tuned pump (think reed valve). For liquids of course, your idea to reduce actuating angle might be key. Stay cool over there!

@scottwilliams895 2 жыл бұрын

You seem to have worked out the electronics, electromagnetics. But might there be room for improvement in the aerodynamics? The whole "fan" is circular because the coil is circular. Perhaps you could design to add additional material beyond what is used as the coil, for mechanical & aerodynamic benefits?

@ehcs0 2 жыл бұрын

Try two coil flaps with a stationary magnet in the middle. also elongate/stretch the flaps in the direction you want the air to go and you'll get more air movement at that slow a speed. Not surprised you'd work on this at some point. Keep up the good work.

@sarthakdeore1815 2 жыл бұрын

Adding foam paddings on both sides of the flap at 1-2 cm apart would help. This would not only reduce the wear of the copper lines in the bending region but can also reduce the impact the copper coils deal while hitting the sides. But I can't figure out where to position the magnets if the above idea was to be tried.

@genexplore 2 жыл бұрын

I thought of your videos the second I saw the solid state fans going viral! Definitely looking forward to seeing the evolution of this project.

@gbmewada 2 жыл бұрын

Nice idea.. Just worried about copper traces at bend

@cinobro6393 2 жыл бұрын

Would love to see a proper tuned version!

@ingusmant 2 жыл бұрын

With all the fans my PC needs I would go deaf with these

@j.lo.5784 2 жыл бұрын

The trick is to build a "whip". In whip a wave will travel along a fiber and increase its speed to the end. Or think about a tsunami. Its wave hight will increase near the coast. You can emolate that using coper taces to increase stiffness in some areas. Basicly the magnets will create waves and the material around it will transport and focus those waves.

@LitchKB 2 жыл бұрын

Those other fans work are more aligned to a resonant frequency, whereas yours appears to work more on brute force. Pick the material in the bending axis better such that it stores more energy, and try find a balance between amplitude and frequency such that once going - you can more efficiently run it by just adding smaller amount of energy back in to supplement the natural occilation of the material.

@AdricM 2 жыл бұрын

Yay, love this, love Robert's videos too.

@AreaMH 2 жыл бұрын

Your ideas are so cool

@GordonTravels 2 жыл бұрын

Prosit Carl! Keep up the great content. Fellow Malteser here! :)

@NorthRoyalton 2 жыл бұрын

Great video I came from your shorts

@davidprock904 2 жыл бұрын

Think of the shape of a tuning fork, a football goal. Have your flapping sheet attached to the bottom bar between the arms with a small gap between the arms. And have the flapping material stiff enough so it can't twist. And the magnets at or near (as needed) to the tip of the arms. And have two smaller coils at each corner maybe? Or just the central coil. Or could you get a benefit if you make the coils in the corners Cresent shaped?

@MysteryPringles 2 жыл бұрын

interesting build. maybe in the future, robotic bird may use this type of flap

@FreClimbs 2 жыл бұрын

dear mister Bugeja. I am an expert in flapping wing mechanics. Kinematics and aerodynamics. You could increase the speed, the amplitude and especially the efficiency of all your moving coils by adding springs to the system. The difference will be huge, especially for this application. Let me know, maybe we can work together on things.

@thegreenxeno9430 2 жыл бұрын

Try mounting the magnets parallel-ish to the PCB and separated by, like, 1cm. Then, include like an inch or so of blank PCB on the end to do the flapping. Also try printing a duct for it to flap inside.

@zhenhu6277 Жыл бұрын

HI Carl,You are very professional.

@SexyEarHair Жыл бұрын

Is this the same principle as that newly unveiled AirJet solid state cooling that was at CES this year?

@dpvng.dpvng. Жыл бұрын

you probably can make fan more efficient adding a case to it and make one or more coils act like a air valve in sync

@nikthefix8918 Жыл бұрын

I wonder if a piezo air assist could be effective for laser cutters. Having an ultralight transducer attached to the laser head requiring no 'dragging' of the usual pneumatic pipe could be more efficient and even offer different operational modes to best suit the debris being cleared.

@mikejones-vd3fg 2 жыл бұрын

very cool, even with its inefficiencies this is still a breakthrough in autofap managment systems

@sebbes333 2 жыл бұрын

*@Carl Bugeja* Try attaching a piece of tape, folded onto itself, start with 2x the surface area & increase until the PCB does not hit the magnets within a cycle.

@mtraczka 2 жыл бұрын

How about putting two of them together so each will have just 90 deg to travel? This should increase lifespan and also airflow as two actuators slapping together in the middle should direct the airflow into one direction.

@emertonom 2 жыл бұрын

Like several other commenters, I think playing with non-active areas of fan blade might help. You could have dead plastic past the actuated area to make it longer, and I also wonder about having a dead area below to introduce a bit of torsion when the fan actuates--it seems to me that might tend to cause the air to be drawn down from above, rather than just from the back, where it's blocked by the magnets, and this might improve the efficiency. (It might also generate an upward thrust, which could be interesting to play with in its own right.)

@dunichtich100 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your inspiring video 😊👍🏼

@dunichtich100 2 жыл бұрын

How many bend cycles at which radius did the PCB last, and did you use rolled copper instead of electroplated copper for the traces?

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

the one that survived lasted 2,592,000 cycles

@bmistry5923 2 жыл бұрын

@CarlBugeja Nice concept! What about EFFICIENCY? From Electric to Mechanical? and your solution vs Piezo actuator?

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

As i said in the video this version consumes more power than piezo actuators - i will try to improve it in v2 :)

@SurajGrewal 2 жыл бұрын

The fact that it's slapping the magnets, means that it's waiting energy. Maybe it should be made to decelerate using laser position resolver.

@AlexandreMagno1580 2 жыл бұрын

Very good! This application can be weapon to kill mosquito.

@exciting-burp 2 жыл бұрын

Maybe experiment with adding a lightweight fan to the end of it, just like the one in the LTT video.

@paulk3232 2 жыл бұрын

Really cool, a fan is more focused directional, what about cupped more to give you a center focus on each side? Just an idea.

@georgegreen3672 2 жыл бұрын

very interesting actuator

@AiOinc1 2 жыл бұрын

They call these solid state but they still work with a moving component that experiences wear. A true solid state solution would be more along the lines of an ozone generator creating flow, or utilizing convection currents for cooling.

@suncrafterspielt9479 2 жыл бұрын

Is this solid state? I thought solid state means that there are no moving components. I thought of something like accelerating ions using electric fields or something to create wind.

@BigBoyDuckie 2 жыл бұрын

a flexible mechanism still counts as having no moving components, there's no resistance wear between parts etc. But it is a little unintuitive since it does move

@suncrafterspielt9479 2 жыл бұрын

But there is wear. As pointed out in the video. The copper lines in the fPCB break

@fallu6224 2 жыл бұрын

So he made a more useless version

@BigBoyDuckie 2 жыл бұрын

@@suncrafterspielt9479 true, but no wear between moving parts, the durability is only determined by the flexible part. This makes it significantly more reliable and durable than a normal fan. In this case however a pcb is used as the flexible part, which isn't designed for this and breaks way easier.

@BigBoyDuckie 2 жыл бұрын

@@fallu6224 yes, but he expected that. It's an experiment, and it's always useful to experiment

@whatthefunction9140 2 жыл бұрын

Attach some kind of mechanical linkage to convert this to circular motion for better air flow

@PAkhramchuk 2 жыл бұрын

Sorry to let you know but I think that the low airflow issue is because in original design the thing is working like swimming fins: making the running waves (like a snake runs, please see the original design). On my opinion the additional simple lever could help to convert the small actuator movement (to preserve the copper for a longer time) to the big "fin" waves. Good luck!

@chrisBruner 2 жыл бұрын

Smaller magnets held on wires near the coil would reduce the bend, and also reduce the air flow resistance. I think that this would allow a much higher speed, which should be more effective.

@samykamkar 2 жыл бұрын

Cool!

@scottwilliams895 2 жыл бұрын

Very cool project, impressive results!

@_el.guapo_ Жыл бұрын

I've heard they are developing new PZT-based piezo actuators that could run on lower voltage. I don't know how low though and I don't what range of motion you could get.

@patrickcoleman6287 Жыл бұрын

I think you should use micro fine particles of ferrite glued or taped on to the spiral. Air cores aren't so great at field density.

@AzaB2C 2 жыл бұрын

Neat! Are you trying different electrical pulse patterns, instead of just simply symmetric on-off, are you trying asymmetric pulses with fast attack angle, long decay? Tuning pulse shape to help to direct air flow? Look forward to updates. Cheers!

@PaperBoat. 4 ай бұрын

That's also Moving State not Solid State.

@ruyvieira104 Жыл бұрын

its like a fishtank air pump pretty much

@srinivasprasad837 2 жыл бұрын

Seriously, I was wishing what if you do a cheaper version of it, when I was watching linus's video. Now my wish came true

@Sri_Harsha_Electronics_Guthik 2 жыл бұрын

nice work!. have you thought of making a valve like flap in the centre(or other crazy configs) of the "fan" so the air doesn't move in the opposite direction in an enclosed fitting !

@WeaponGuy117 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting, so if you increase the voltage, could you drive the flaps at a higher frequency with a narrower angle? Also I like the idea of driving a thin piece of metal at a particular frequency to make it resonate and pump air. I don't know how feasible it would be, but if you can make a wave propagate down the length of the fan blade, then maybe it could pump air thorough a lot more efficiently?

@Blume1.0 2 жыл бұрын

Can you make a video of showing us how to make 4b board on pcbway

@GridCube 2 жыл бұрын

i wonder if taking inspiration on the shape of insect wings wouldn't also increase the air flow

@chillydickie 2 жыл бұрын

This would super awesome if it was possible to move liquids with these. Imagining an uphill mini river using them...

@gaeljaton Жыл бұрын

I guess you'll get some more air flow by pairing many actuators in "wave" patern, like squid propulsion. Then I still would love to see some aquatic robots in squid/jellyfish style made with your actuators, I think about custom 'leaf' shape for this purpose. Cheer's!

@desmarty3169 Жыл бұрын

Upgrading humanity

@rationalagent6927 2 жыл бұрын

Can you make a little drone with that like insect wings?

@amitt2636 Жыл бұрын

Can you make it in rectangle like the piezoelectric fan

@jacobsharf8173 2 жыл бұрын

Great, now make a working mechanical butterfly!

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

Magnets will be too heavy for it to fly 😅

@doanprasmana1444 2 жыл бұрын

i have open a hair clipper before that use 220vac... i think you can use that and just add some plastic ...

@custos3249 2 жыл бұрын

Dude, how did you not see the solution to the airflow issues due to the magnets being in the way when you had the set of 3 running? Just add some material been two actuators.

@TheDan0nator 2 жыл бұрын

What about driving 2 coils not using any magnets

@887jiujitsu8 2 жыл бұрын

Looks like bug wings flapping. Might try that with it if these don't work as fan

@HappySlappyFace 2 жыл бұрын

This is some unique content

@thisisnotme7549 2 жыл бұрын

Magnet, plus alternate magnetic field equals = Motor It is not a solid state Fan!!! it's a non-rotating Motor, i.e linear motor...

@zakariakhamees 2 жыл бұрын

it is in solid state though (no moving parts)

@blwh 2 жыл бұрын

I believe it has more to do with not having friction from moving parts, and not magnetic fields. The main advantage of solid state fans is their reliability because they don't have friction.

@gutrali 2 жыл бұрын

@@zakariakhamees not sure if you watched the video, but the element is indeed **moving** back and forth. A solid state fan would use something like static electricity to move air rather then any moving part. Just like a solid state relay doesn't have ANY moving parts (i.e. nothing moves)

@zakariakhamees 2 жыл бұрын

@@gutrali I am not an expert but i just compared this with the popular piezoelectric one from LTT (which they say it is solid state). They both flap.

@gutrali 2 жыл бұрын

@@zakariakhamees 10-4. I would argue that piezoelectric movement is not solid state either. To me, solid state means not having any different states that the device can move between. In both the case of piezoelectric fans and this flapping motor, the two states the device physically changes between (flapping to one extreme and then the other) are really obvious. This gives it multiple states it can be in at any given time during operation. Compare those to a fan using the motive force of electrons and there are no longer any "states" the device changes between. It stays in one solid state, continually, without movement, and yet still functions for it's purpose. I do believe most people misuse the term solid state in this way. If there was no movement between states, then there couldn't be any wear occuring, and yet we know that both of these types of fans absolutely do wear out as they induce air movement

@alpha_pixel_ 2 жыл бұрын

What is the point if you use magnets and coil in another orientation. Its the same as fan.. piezo is completely different.

@javipk7 Жыл бұрын

idea: you could design a third joint / flexing point and with a third magnet (or maybe 2 extra ones) to make it twist as it flaps, just like a bird or a bee, they don't just flap they twist the wing too

@blacknoire 2 жыл бұрын

Would one of these work better inside a tube , open at one end (air out) and maybe something like a Tesla valve other end (air in)?

@ThePhilStudio 2 жыл бұрын

New to the channel. Really, great content and projects there. I'll take another look this week! :)

@alexm66 5 ай бұрын

Make a robot fish with it!

@larrylollypop3 11 ай бұрын

@here looking at the design. You look at nature where the flapping goes side to side. But the one you are modeling on goes like a whip. I don't think magnets is the issue seeing as you can create electro magnets. .. ..as an experiment add a post-it to the end of an electric tooth brush without the bristle head. Simply the flat metal that is inserted. I also have an idea rather than copper you can use

@frogz 2 жыл бұрын

commenting because there is only 35 other comments at this point in time, i see this video going big, fast

@elpocasombra9237 2 жыл бұрын

I think a improvement would be making it longer, like the piezo one, with the coil all the way or just at the tip, theoretically it would improve reliability and be more powerful

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

i will defiantly test this in v2 (along with some other options) as i think driving this a longer arm at resonance would definitely improve the durability

@hardnachopuppy 2 жыл бұрын

Is it possible to use 2 coil flaps that repell each other

@Sqwince23 2 жыл бұрын

magnets appear to be blocking most of the air. Myabe a diametrically polarized ring magnet might be an option to allow the air to flow through the center?

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

yeah i think that would improve it a bit

@IanMott 2 жыл бұрын

try adding a duct to increase efficiency

@jmmfresno Жыл бұрын

Hello, I love your research on flat coils. Could you tell me how you make them oscillate? What kind of circuit do you use?

@davey2k12 2 жыл бұрын

The magnets are your problem not controllable maybe 2 coils instead of mags you cud switch poles before it touches with hall sensor, reed switch, but the copper traces need to be protected maybe pass through a spring made of plastic or copper mmm might be better scale it up a bit

@remy- 2 жыл бұрын

Would be more efficient to use the pcb motor designed by you as a ventilator

@MoritzvonSchweinitz 2 жыл бұрын

Couldn't you use two of your coils in parallel, and let them attract/repulse each other?

@breezetix 2 жыл бұрын

increase the frequency so it flaps faster and not bend as far.

@james10739 2 жыл бұрын

Ya I didn't think that would last very long with that much movement

@Psrj-ad 2 жыл бұрын

I really feel like the Piezo electric effect is seriously underutilized. its essentially just a electrostatic molecular actuator. surelly a bunch of research and engineering further into it could yeeld bigger scale results right?

@themastergambiarraofc7925 2 жыл бұрын

now make a 16 inch version WOW

@aaronstanley6914 Жыл бұрын

Lol when I saw the title thought of Linus then see him in the video

@Dilshad-gu7je 2 жыл бұрын

In the footage of the piezo fan it seems to have a floppy-ish tail, that increases the radius of the movement and whips when the direction changes. Could a smaller than 180° movement with a tail that flops a bit work? I'd be concerned because the tail adds mass, increases the amount of air to move and increases inertia but might be an interesting experiment.

@mrab4222 2 жыл бұрын

That makes me think of sinusoidal propulsion.

@Dilshad-gu7je 2 жыл бұрын

@@mrab4222 Thanks I learnt a thing - Sinusoidal propulsion - how a snake moves. Thank you for killing my productivity today with this interesting internet rabbit hole.

@undersky596 2 жыл бұрын

Major hardware collab?

@nosuchthing4789 2 жыл бұрын

How about NiTiCu flexible sheets? At least for hinges...

@jj74qformerlyjailbreak3 2 жыл бұрын

I would make the coil separate from the magnets with springs. Maybe

@jj74qformerlyjailbreak3 2 жыл бұрын

What I’m saying instead of a copper trace being snapped. Small heat tempered springs may last 1000x.

@marcogenovesi8570 2 жыл бұрын

can something like this be used to fly? Not sure if lighter magnets exist

@Dazdigo 2 жыл бұрын

Why not climate the magnets entirely. Just have to parallel coils that repel and attract each other and have them flap like bird wings or a hand clapping action. Though I would have them both be in a || or U configuration at rest and when powered go into a V bending shape.

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

in the past this haven't worked that good - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jsyGrZyA2d7eqaM.html

@gameprogramme 2 жыл бұрын

Great video, but I think “solid state” implies that the device has no moving parts. The only solid state air-moving device I’m aware of was an electrostatic model aerofoil wing, but I believe it relied on a differential of hundreds of thousands of volts. Keep up the great ideas

@gameprogramme 2 жыл бұрын

Actually you mentioned piezo-electrics… they change shape in response to current, and I believe *are* considered “solid state”, so I believe my definition of “solid state” is slightly inaccurate… but I still doubt your DIY flapping coils count. Can anyone weigh in definitively?

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks :) There is only 1 moving solid-part without any bearings to cause friction so I guess it is considered as solid state (using the same logical terms of the solid-state piezo fan)

@macrumpton 2 жыл бұрын

Couldn't you use two of them together and they could alternately attract and repell each other and not need the magnet?

@optikon2222 2 жыл бұрын

how is this solid state? its a coil moving in a magnetic field driven by electronics.. hmm sounds just like a typical fan. Cool toy bro.

@CarlBugeja 2 жыл бұрын

There is only 1 moving solid-part without any other parts causing friction so I guess it is considered as solid state (using the same logical terms of the solid-state piezo fan)