I think it being level by level is better as it forces you to learn how to master each individual level.

SA2 is known for being the game that begins Shadow’s legacy and an overall experience tour of force where the story took itself seriously enough to become iconic. And memes too.

What youre saying about fixing the style system in future sonic games reminds me of how Sonic P-06 does it's scoring system

Great video, great editing, W take. 10/10 would watch again. (GT IS PEAK)

Great to see you making videos again! I never thought about the SA2 points system that much but yeah you’re right that feels super random. I like the points system you proposed though I am serious how you feel about the one in the island challenges in Frontiers

I never played Sonic Adventure 2. So I never knew how borked the style system is, and can only imagine the frustration of such an inconsistent mechanic. It'd be like playing DMC, and using melee attacks increases the style meter only against some enemies on certain stages.

Was genuinely baffled to see you can get 1500 on the last rail on City Escape. I feel like I've only ever gotten 800 on it. Perhaps I got 1500, and didn't notice? I first noticed SA2's trick system was broken while trying to get all A's and was playing I believe Crazy Gadget? 1 of the Sonic Space levels. I'm running down a tunnel, with a rail on the ceiling, and at the end is a shield gun mech, and a large pit behind it. Sometimes I'd get bonus points for killing the mech, and sometimes I wouldn't. And it never seemed to matter whether I ran down the tunnel, or rode on the rail. This was also the moment I realized tricks don't give points, (well they do) but specific actions do. It just feels like the developers made a think line that you were supposed to follow to get the points, and if you got off the line even slightly, you'd lose your maximum points. I tried looking up online, for pure curiosity, because I'd already gotten all A's by this point, but it doesn't seem a lot of people are talking about it, and guides on the trick system are basic, and don't really help you understand how to get maximum points. I do know that using Bounce Bracelet counts as staying in the air, to the game. So this allows you to keep your combo going. That all being said, I do like SA2's trick system, and it was genuinely the only time I enjoyed grinding on rails in a Sonic game (Despite how much I fight with it.) I'd love to see it refined, and built upon.

This guy's gonna snap someday. i know it.

A nice idea I have is that if you take a dangerous path and you pass through them without getting hit and with the Lowest chain possible you get style points.

I rather this than it being streamlined in Sonic Heroes. It's funnier because the tricks are hidden per level.

Okay as someone with knowledge in programming that has not play this game for points ever, i just downloaded a save file with Green Hill unlocked. This sounds as a simple coding mistake, i think the devs had the intention of making it so you could increase the score of the style meter, but for some reason, it ends up being overwriten instead of adding to it. So that's probably why the score system is wancky and doesn't work well, it's overwritting the score you are gaining instead of adding it. Regarding the rail score. well i think there is a math equation that's very wancky too, regarding the process of deciding how many points you get for each rail. Now is what am i saying the absolute truth? No, i have not seen the code, so i can be completely wrong, this is a guess from someone with experience programming base in what you are commenting and the typical experience, again, i care more about time then points when i play Sonic. So i never payed attention to the score system.

Enjoyed your video. I'm gonna guess that the game remembering and stacking points was probably due to RAM limitations. Those old games go pretty fast and dream cast only had 16 MB of ram and SA2B doesn't really seem like it was reworked to optimize to the gamecubes 40MB. It does suck though lol

I guess because I didn't understood ranks I didn't care about them in Sonic games.

I was going to mention Sonic GT, but then you got to it 😅 Always nice to see GT love

I like the bonus points system in Heroes, it's consistent basically most of the time, the thing is, they don't explain too much to you in any way, not even on the manual. But it works the same during the entire game. - Destroy enemies = Bonus points. You can destroy up to 5 enemies to win more points (maxed out to 5 enemies and 2k points), and you can keep destryoing more, but you don't get extra, also you have an invisible timer to keep your pace. - Rocket Accel a group of enemies = Bonus points. If you rocket accel a lot of enemies gives you up 1k (I don't know how exactly this works or why, but i know i get this consintently on Seaside Hill) - Light Dash a trail of ring gives you points depending on how long is the trail (Up to 1k). It's weird, they don't explain you how it works, but is consistent and you can take advantage of it once you firgured out

If you do a part 2. You could do frontiers. Etc and caption it ideas for frontiers 2. To get more views. Like maybe adding the drop dash also keeps points . And the boost ends it when it runs out. Giving you speed but less combo. While drop dashing keeps combo up. Also maybe the points tick down per second. I do like the idea of filler moves. Maybe Sonic could do handstand on the enemies for second before smashing them. Maybe another filler move is break dance. And how could we shadow and Amy and sonic feel different in combos? Amy could bounce to go in air. Shadow teleport large gaps and sonic could break dance / mess / wind rush with the enemies to deal more damage.

oh ohhhh i see where you got mixed up. the point system is actually based on what food sonic is thinking of at the time. he has to be thinking about chilly dogs to get 1k.

You want them to be giving you points on levels that are entirely based on rail grinding easily? That's why I don't have that issue with Final Rush and Sky Rail. Those levels would be easy to A rank if it was like that.

SONIC ADVENTURE 2 JUST NEEDS NEW HEROES NAMED SPARKLIE THE TIGER TIDE THE CAT TH THE FLYING ZEBRA AND BRUNCHER THE KANGEROO IN THE GAME AND THEN MAYBE THISVGAME COULD HAVE STYLE NOT TO MENTION TERIOS THE HEDGEHOG IS THE ONE AND ONLY ULTIMATE LIFEFORM COMPARE TO SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG

ngl i never even noticed any of this and just ran through the levels

The bounce bracelet is kinda already a filler move, you can use it to avoid landing and get higher enemy combos.

Colours had a similar issue for me. If I beat a stage as fast as possible I'd get like a C or B, but going super slow and using every wisp and getting all the red rings got me the S

And the A rank point requirement IS DIFFERENT EVERY TIME

3:19 this issue is actually not in the dreamcast version. getting both rails gives you 500 points.

Am I the only one who finds videos of people absolutely bashing things I love and I enjoy it 😂

I think this video really hits the nail on the head. Not getting points for landing on another rail is easily my biggest pet-peeve with the whole game. The whole system really just needed a lot more refinement.

i... never interpreted the system as needing to have most any of these consistencies. the issue of needing to land, sure, i think even i have had frustration with that. the pyramid cave rings, which are explicitly defined to give points in some way but lack points in certain cases, sure. but generally, i think it's just to explore what does or doesn't give you points and routing around that. and it was pretty cool!

I was hearing this from my friends for the past eight years and I can’t stand it😩😩😩

You remind me of saberpark

I think the system ultimately just isn't for you. You're not supposed to be scoring high the first time (or even the first _few_ times) you play a level. The fun is supposed to come from exploring the levels and figuring out what gives you lots of points and what doesn't. There's no strict guidelines, and I prefer it that way, because otherwise it would make the system feel rigid and make every level feel more similar in terms of getting an A-rank. Because the rules are so precise in the treasure hunting and mech levels, getting an A-rank in those levels feels a lot more arcade-y to me, whereas getting one in the speed stages is a much more fluid experience that is personally more enjoyable for me. And while it's not precise, the scoring system in speed stages does have a lot of _tendencies,_ and when you pick up on those tendencies, it gets you wondering "hmmm, I wonder if this might give me points," and it's really cool to sometimes discover that whatever crazy idea you had actually does reward you with extra points! A-ranking stages should typically be the final challenge that a player will tackle, or at the very least, they probably won't start trying to do it until they have beaten the game and done a decent number of extra missions. Along the way, they'll naturally acquire an understanding of each level and what works vs what doesn't. A-ranks are the culmination of everything you've learned about a level after having already played it a few times, explored it, and gotten familiar with it. I personally feel that the point values are usually pretty carefully considered, being a good balance between difficulty, the actual stylishness of the maneuver, and some other considerations at times. With the example of the ramps at the end of City Escape, I can understand that you may be frustrated that those don't give you tons of points, but I think that's supposed to be the point. I've played the game _many_ times over the years and have even 100% completed it multiple times, but I still have trouble timing those. And I think the designers were aware that they're a pretty unrealistic challenge, which is why it would feel pretty unfair to have a person's A-rank depend on whether they can nail those ramps or not. They're an option available for you to get a few extra points if you're an _absolute madman,_ but they usually won't make or break an A-rank, which I think is a good call. I'm personally glad that I don't have to worry about getting those whenever I want to try to A-rank City Escape 😅. And you, as someone who apparently _can_ nail those ramps on City Escape, I'm sure have already A-ranked the stage before doing that. I'd be shocked if you learned how to time that before getting an A-rank, unless you were just _really_ stubborn. And with that being the case, I can't really understand why you'd be angry that you didn't get more points from them. Perhaps it would have been better to just not have those ramps in that section at all, but I personally like them. Even though I basically never successfully get a trick off of them, it makes the section much more engaging to _try_ to do it each time, even if I almost always fail. It's a very simple section of the level that is mostly there just to awe and surprise new players, so I think it's nice to have those ramps there as something to make sure that even veteran players are still engaged during that section. It also seems like they may be there for people who are going for high score runs, trying to go beyond the A-rank and maximize their score outright, and while I don't ever do this myself, I'm sure those ramps make for an interesting addition to such a run. It is true that sometimes it feels like the game is just throwing out numbers at random, with the rings in Pyramid Cave being a good example as you pointed out, but honestly, in cases such as this, I don't really see the big deal? Part of what makes the style system fun for me is just the simple fact that it's yelling out a bunch of random compliments like "NICE," "COOL," "JAMMIN'," and "RADICAL" constantly, so I personally enjoy being taken on a ride of nonstop buzzwords that are changing constantly, rather than having the same one show up over and over again. The point values themselves don't really matter as much in instances like these in my opinion, since once you've mastered the level, you're probably going to want to go through every ring in Pyramid Cave regardless of which ones offer more points relative to each other. They all reward _enough_ points that it's always worth your time to go through them, so the extra flavor of changing up the buzzwords is more valuable than the precise point values to me. I also personally like that style is completely separated from how fast you go. This turns getting an A-rank into a careful balancing act between style and speed, which is far more fun and interesting than only being required to go fast in my opinion, and it also requires that you engage with the level design in a very different way than how you'd might if you were only required to go fast. The suggestions you made at the end are totally valid directions to go with it though. The suggestions you made sound perfectly fun, but that doesn't make the current SA2 system less fun to me. And I haven't played Sonic GT, but it sounds fun! I won't defend things that are clearly bugs, such as the game eating your points when you land on a rail versus landing on the floor-that sucks. And the game having super finicky/unclear criteria can be annoying too, but that isn't an issue with the system itself so much as the game just being kind of janky. But aside from stuff like that where the game is just not functioning properly, I ultimately couldn't disagree with you more on this topic ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do think that speed should be important in Sonic games, but I disagree with your statement that the game shouldn't reward you for going slower for some arbitrary bonus objective such as the rings in Pyramid Cave. Sometimes style is slower! If you asked me what looked cooler between running in a straight line down a corridor or running up the walls and dashing through floating rings, obviously I'm gonna say the second one was cooler! But clearly running straight forward with no detours is faster. Speed should be a bonus ON TOP of looking cool! It shouldn't be the only thing that matters in a STYLE system.

Never really noticed that and tbh I don’t really care since every level is still a Challenge when it comes to getting the A Rank.

SA2's ranking system isn't about being as fast as possible, it's about being as much of a badass as possible. SA2 isn't like the classics, it's a spectacle platformer first and foremost. I think the points are just handed out based on whatever the one or two level designers at Sonic Team USA felt was right at the time. The score requirements for each level also change to fit the amount of points you can get in said level, so I dont think it's really a big deal? Just go fast while doing as much cool stuff as possible and you're guaranteed an A most of the time.

I never liked the "system", it was always more fun how the later games dropped any false pretense and just wanted you to play well(Minus Colors having these occasional slam-bonusses that are basically the second coming of SA2 in how arbitrary they are. But that game's rankings suffer from severe overbloat anyways). Basically, you get a set number of points for the most random inconsistent cr*p, but actually being stylish grants you nothing because they never actually implemented any sort of overarching calculation for it. And sometimes not even those set pointrewards trigger correctly because you happened to hit a weird edgecase. I know implementing a proper score system can be a balanceissue(I mean, look at P-06 allowing for rediculous stuff to happen because it did infact implement one), but they really should have either tried or just handled it like later games. Infact, mech shooting IS already more standard in how it treats points rather than going for "style" and it is better off for it.

Kinda hard to put this nicely but I completely disagree with this take. Not to say the system doesn't have problems, just that I don't think you provided appropriate solutions or even context for the design decisions. The main issue is that SA2 is a 3D platformer, so a system strictly based on time or score multipliers can cause problems. The ethos of the series has always been about mastery on repeat playthroughs. While speed as a reward works well in 2D, time based scoring falls short in 3D. It's just way to easy to go over around or through most of the level design. I won't knock you if you think this is more fun in a vacuum, but it homogenizes the level to level gameplay. SA1 is actually a good example of this, and a direct reason why SA2's system exists. When you're constantly spam dashing (or just flying past everything in Tails' stages) to finish ASAP every level effectively plays the same. SA2's scoring opportunities aren't always intuitive, but they reward you for engaging with each levels unique design. The logical extreme of rewarding raw speed is that everyone starts abusing glitches and skipping most of the actual game. This type of system works better in 2D where obstacles and enemies are more substantial roadblocks. A scoring system like Tony Hawk or DMC also wouldn't work without some compromises. Tony Hawk is probably the more egregious example, since it's system completely falls apart as soon as you try to use it for anything except score-attack. I think a good game to look into on this would be Bomb Rush Cyberfunk (an indie 3D platformer inspired by JSRF and THPS). BRC deliberately went out of its way to change THPS's system (specifically the multipliers) so it could properly reward exploration and platforming, but it still ended up oversimplifying the gameplay. For most of the score challenges you can still skate around in circles to rack up all the points you need and completely ignore most of the level design. An Adventure game copying Tony Hawk whole cloth would be even worse. Pretty much every level would need a time limit, and at that point you've just made a time based system and moved the goal post to the best scoring spot. On the other hand, the problem with DMC is that its system relies on a an extremely wide, but consistently practical moveset. Which is much harder to effectively implement in a platformer. The question "How do you kill a demon?" has way more interesting and nuanced answers than "How do you cross a gap?". Inevitably you'll end up with some answers that are far and away better than others (e.g just fly over the gap) and need to be limited or outright excluded to maintain depth. A good example of this kind of game would be Spark 3, (an indie 3D Platformer inspired by SA1 and DMC). The Combat usually works pretty great in Spark since it is part Hack and Slash, but the platforming doesn't really accommodate it at all. Float is pretty much always the best option for platforming (I think you can guess why) and the other styles are almost purely relegated to combat. Thankfully Spark 3 didn't copy DMC's ranking system, so it's not like you're forced to platform with worse options to earn extra style points. But looping back to SA2, it wouldn't even be able to accommodate Spark 3's system without compromising it's controls. Spark 3 uses even more buttons and combinations than DMC. Which isn't surpising when it has to fit combat moves, platforming moves, special abilities for both, *and* style switching all on the same mapping. I liked the game but eventually I started playing it on a six face button fightpad because my execution was getting sloppy. This definitely wouldn't work for a 2 button game like Sonic Adventure. Simple controls and design were a staple of Sonic at the time, and of Yuji Nakas games to this day (often to a fault). This kind of system probably wouldn't make it past the planning phase. I haven't played GT, but I'd assume it's closer to Spark 3 than SA2 in terms of overall complexity. Again, not saying SA2 is perfect, the way rails can break chains is inexcusable. But other than that glaring issue I think its system is pretty solid. It provides a little extra depth for replays and addresses some of the issues SA1 had without compromising Sonic's core design. It definitely could be better but saying it sucks is a stretch. P.S Sorry bout the wall of text bruv

No wonder you don't like SA2. xD Damn. I just excuse it because it's sega and it's their first time here. But yeah, the points system is hella broken here.

My boy you have GOT to stop saying “I digress” in every video

You're not even a SA2 hater and yet people still can't take your very valid criticism of a specific aspect of the game.

I don't know how people like this ranking system where they go slow instead of going fast and get a good time in the speed stages.

Ok... who cares?

Sonic fans giving lectures on how to develop a Sonic game with no knowledge of coding or game design😂