I had several bike fits and I came away with the belief that each bike fitter will fit you according to their belief of where they think you should be. One bike fitter had me too far forward and too high and as a result suffered a right knee injury. After getting better, I saw another bike fitter who shoved my saddle too far back and that re-aggravated my knee injury. I finally adjusted my saddle height one centimeter lower according to the simple heel to pedal test and adjusted my fore aft saddle position with my knee exactly over the pedal as a starting point. So far that seems to be it. Crazy.

My bike fit rule is that if I can cycle 100k, day after day, with no pain or niggles, I'm not messing with it. I've spent the last year and a half with a 20 pound short saddle from Selle San Marco on a ten-thousand pound bike, and I have no intention of chasing marginal gains by dropping 100 grams or fiddling around with a different position for a few extra watts. Pain-free is fast.

That's so good to hear from a true expert about fore / aft. I'm similar, got crazy long legs for my height and my saddle is way back. I actually had to get a shorter stem too as I was still over-reaching. I guess now I've done a 200 mile ride with no issues, it must be bang on.

Honestly thank you both so much! These vids are brilliant💙

I hadn't noticed that you r saddle was that far forward, I loved that it was time trailing or Frenchmen with his onions, did make me chuckle.

Katie thank you and Phil so much...

Very helpful video Katie, thank you.

Been getting knee pain on my roadie will try these tips thank you 😊

Great explanation. I have for my size also very long legs. This video is gonna get me better on my bike again. Since i moved my saddle i am having a bit knee sore, only on my right knee.

Moved my seat forward about 3cm and what a difference , no jarring pain in my sit bones and was able to ride farther and longer , thanks for the great tip, cheers from Scotland

Very useful post. Thanks a lot !

Good information. I just have one suggestion - if you are making a making a big change in position, do it bit by bit, over a number of weeks. Especially if you are old, like me (68), your body might not tolerate a drastic change done all at once. I had a bike fitter raise my seat (which was too low and giving me front knee pain) quite a bit and shifted saddle fore/aft position. I did a few short rides and felt comfortable. Then I did a 43 mile ride and felt good while riding, but when I stopped I could barely walk. The back of my right knee was super tight and painful. I thought I had wreaked my knee, but the orthopedist said I had strained my hamstring. I have been off my bike for 2 weeks now (sad face) and feel like a hamster whose wheel has been taken away.

i always had a bit of patella pain prior to cycling, for what ever reason after cycling a lot for a year there was a bit of discomfort at first but now theyre stronger than ever no pain or anything, my seat posts' set back is reversed forward and my saddle is almost maxed forward. knee's over toes isnt bad your knees are just weak. just like how lifting weight with a rounded back isnt bad. things just have limitations its up to you to expand those limits.

I remember buying a new set of cranks a few years ago. No 175s in stock so I went with 170s, never thought anything about it. I didn't notice any real difference on the bike. However I noticed pain developing in my left knee and then the right. About 4 months after putting the new cranks on my knees were knackered but it never crossed my mind that 5mm would make any difference. It got to the point where I went to the doctor because my knees were so bad I couldn't bend them. Doctor gave a cursory examination and said 'probably arthritis'! Balls to that I said and racked my brain about what could be causing it. I then remebered the new cranks and though maybe I should do a bike fit and make some adjustments. I altered the seat height a few mill and within a month or so my knees were fine again! It's amazing how much difference a small change can make.

Cheers for that. I'm MTB to the core... obviously you're a bit limited on hand positions on MTB bars and for a while now I've has wrist and hand numbness on longer rides. Tried Ergon grips which helped a bit but didn't cure it. After watching this, I started wondering if I had my saddle too far forward pushing me on to the bars... so last ride I pushed the saddle back by no more than 1 cm so it sat in the middle of the rail marks. Wrist and hand numbness greatly reduced! Honestly hadn't thought about saddle position being the issue until I saw this 👍👍

Surprised not too see any mention of moving your saddle back to reduce pressure on the hands.

Great explanation of your saddle position and not surprised by all the keyboard warriors questioning your bike position. Being a 6'5" cyclist with a 38.5-inch inseam and really long arms and a short torso, I've had to read a lot about bike fitting and find Phil Burt's information quite useful. This a good reminder of when we age that periodically revisiting our bike fit is important. Especially now, that many of us cyclists are working from home, sitting more, and having dietary and mobility changes that are silently affecting our comfort on the bike. Keep up the informative posts!

I have recently bought a new ebike, and have been getting to grips with saddle and seat post adjustment in the last couple of weeks. I wish I could have seen this video before cluelessly playing about with the bike. But, the good news is, I seem to have found good base settings now. Maybe it's time for some "micro adjustments"......

Thanks for another class at Phil Burt University. He does a great job explaining complex concepts.

Hi Katie good video all my bike saddles are all the same level and height take care

Thanks, very informative! One small problem though: a text overlay in the video mentions KOPS when Phil Burt is talking about Knee Over Forward Foot or KOFF. (Knee Over Pedal Spindle or KOPS is not used by any serious bike fitter-like Phil.)

That is a nice tip ! I'm going to try that on my E-bike, can't find a good position. Thank's Katie .

I've got weirdly long legs and a short torso too! Going to try playing with the saddle position 😊

Appreciate the video, but I was hoping Phil would also talk about balance as related to saddle forward and aft. I’m also a tough fit, 6’4” with a long torso, and when starting out developed some bad pain in the elbow tendons with a normal (non setback) seatpost. Getting the seat waaaay back helps, but I still need more education on all the factors to help ease the elbow stress, balance being one. Thanks again for putting up all these great video’s Katie!

I love your adventures with Greg, Sally, Dave, and Richard. When you go out on trips to London for example, maybe a London to Brighton cycling run sometime in the near future, you guys?🤔I've just got back from my Hyde loop🤣let onto a lady cyclist on a who just ignored me. Although maybe women alone syndrome, so I let that one go. Something else happened. I was going through a gap in the traffic only wide enough for one car. so I carried on through and of course Mr Nxxhead car driver came through the other way and nearly knocked me off my bike, It was tight from what i remember. I thought about the bus and Katie incident, scary shit cycling on roads, I don't know where you guys get your nerve from? Maybe I'll stick to cycling on my rollers!!!😂

I briefly worked at Ribble so I'm relatively familiar with the geometry of most of the frames. A large amount of them (the Endurance SL being one of them) are (imo) slightly longer with a lower stack for their given size when compared to other brands of the same size. So I can see why you need the saddle positioned as you do. I'd normally pick a 54 or medium in most frames but quite a lot of the Ribbles, I think I'd be happier on a small.

3:24 does it for me. Thanks Phil!

That was an interesting video, cheers 👍 There wasn't any mention of saddle tilt though, I find even a micro adjustment to the tilt makes a big difference in comfort.

For anyone watching this video. The points Phil is mentioning thru in the list of potential problems with saddle too far (back) can be very much mimmicked by another (huge) factor- saddle height. Saddle too low is as Bad as saddle too high. Be absolutely mindful of that. My experience, Saddle too low led to: Knee pain, (extreme!!) upper back pain, anckle/ foot pain. Then the opposite: "a bit" too high (not extremely) led to: Lowe back pain, and upper shoulder discomfort. The fore-after position, that you will feel more in the hands, wrists, elbows. Definitely find the "near perfect" saddle height first, then figure out the fore/after. Extra tip- heel to pedal for saddle height, that's bs- good luck w solving your correct height w that method! Measure your inseam and go with the two options, multiply by 0.883 and measure from BB, or inseam × 109% and measure that from pedal spindle. And then work from there, few mm up or down. But do not be confused by saddle only being too high, the problem could also be too low.

❤…I’m gonna try move my saddle a tiny bit forward

Nice video. Did you use the short cranks?

I think that once the size of the bike is correct (I mean custom made of course), and the height of saddle and handlebar is correct, the body can adapt itself to "small" errors. This as long as you 1) are young and 2) are not looking for extreme performance. When with age I developed a spinal hernia I recovered with swimming and a saddle-post shock adsorber. When finally came the issues with the thing that starts with "pro" (but is not "professionalism") I tried a lot of different saddles, but it turned out the the best is a saddle for ladies (shorter in lenght and larger in the rear). I mean, Dr.Phil is 100% right, but every body is a unique.

i have the problem i always had ride an xc bike 29 inc i am 192 cm did great on the old bike now i have an new e bike with an other geometric frame yes i have it on my size and dropper seat on it but havin but problems constant and knee problems its an good tip i wil try

Go Phil.

Great little tips , especially on the micro adjustments relevant to feelings... btw, I does feel your saddle height is really high on the video

I could watch Phil Burt videos all day. For a guy who's made a reputation as a professional physio/bike fitter, his simple and pragmatic approach is just brilliant.

Stomping on the pedal downstroke and overworked quads can also be an indicator of a saddle that's too far forward / too high

How do you deal with scoliosis on a bike when hips are parallel left to right? Thanks Phil and Katie

The thing about saddle position/set-back is that it's not static. An experienced cyclist is always moving fore and aft on the saddle depending on what conditions they're riding in. Paying a bike fitter to find "your optimal position" on a bike is sort of funny since it's only one position from the many that you'll ride in off the trainer when actually riding out on the road. I'll bet you that most cyclists will ride further forward on the saddle when riding hard on the road. Also, it has been biomechanically proven that no one position works best for everyone and trying to force someone to ride in that position results in less power output, lower ability to hold that position for extended periods of time and potential injury. It's also interesting to note that what is thought of as "optimal riding position" has changed a lot over the past 30 or more years. That being said, if you are completely new to competitive, fitness or any form of serious cycling, a good bike fitter can probably get you in the general ballpark for proper positioning. But that's only a starting point.

I see this ALL the time. Short torso = short reach. It's NOT always the case. Some of us have short torso and really long arms, such as myself. 180cm tall, 184 wingspan, 86 leg inseam. I've a positive "ape index". So you would imagine all those people recommending me "smaller bikes" have been so very wrong, and I've struggled so much. I actually needed a pretty long reach.

I'd like to ask possibly the stupidest bike-fit question, because I accept there's no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers... WHERE do you sit on a saddle? and the bonus question, HOW do you sit on a saddle? I feel this is key to saddle fore-aft and a little toward saddle height as a consideration because I have never managed to get comfortable on a saddle, after trying many saddles, a bike fit, and continued trial and error/improvement afterwards (while making sure I do a handful of short distance rides between each change, and knowing my baseline 'best so far' to return to in between). I get saddle discomfort on the ol' "sit bones" and pain inside (but toward the back) of one knee, so I probably need a visit to a pro / chiropractor really, for a full run down on hip alignment, leg length and so on, but maybe, just maybe its an easier thing to fix than that! The knee that gets pain might be down to the knackered PCL mind, but the core of my above questions is down to maximising saddle and pedal comfort that could help with the knee, maybe.

I have exactly the same problem! Switched to a model with lots of stack per reach (Domane) and really comfortable for the first time ever. Do you find any specific types of saddle help with this?

Is that apply to a triathlon bike too? I did my Ironman and my knee hurts afterwards! But I felt much power on the bike after put my seat forwards!

If your saddle position relative to the saddle rails is wrong surely in your case an inline seat post would help?

Not enough was made about crank arm length when talking about seat height and fore aft, especially as it relates to shorter riders on mass produced bikes. Before anything is done with a bike fit, determining proper crank length should be done, and riders over 5’9 will usually be okay with what’s on their bike, but if you’re 5’7 and shorter, you’ll most likely need a 165-170 crank arm or shorter, and they rarely come stock on a bike.

What is the degree on your stem? I’m exploring different stems to try and give me a bit more handle bar height

Welcome to the T-rex club!!! Same problem here..187cm tall but arms that are most of the time 10cm shorter than most people....

Great video, as a starting point how far back from the centre of the centre bracket to the seat tip be, I’m 5ft10 and ride a medium frame

I solved all my bike saddle and handlebar wrist/shoulder issues by riding a recumbent! If you are not racing a UBI race why put up with the pain? I have a Cruzbike, but there are other models that are equally comfortable if not as fast. I understand why racers stick with the diamond frame, and same for Mt bikes, but road bike riders? What is the deal?

LOL, never noticed your saddle was set forwards 😋

Thanks for the video but how to know if my torso Is really short? Because my insame Is 74, my torso 63

I’d like to see you on a smaller frame to see how the set up would be. I find the same issue but I can’t just buy another bike to see the results, whereas you have the contacts to try different frame sizes. I’m sure a lot of people ride the wrong size frame.

Great informative video again. If your on a 54 frame when you should be on a 52 is it still achievable to make it fit?

Most people's legs are not the same length so would measuring each inside leg matter in the overall saddle height calculations. If so would you use the shortest measurement as the basis for the calculation.

Katie I'm sure I saw you cycling in Ramsbottom East ?

Hello, Thank you for the great content. My height is 177cm and my road bike size is M. I set my saddle all the way back to make it knee over the pedal spindle. What is your opinion in this regard? Is it okay to make my saddle all the way back or I should go with the L frame where the saddle will be in the middle?

My knees have been hurting in the front last couple of rides I'm actually kind of scared to ride again so I don't damage them.

Is there a bike fit solution for back pain due to hyper lordosis .. where to start when looking for solution? Which factors are most likely? Thank you😊

In the fitting video from Francis Cade with James, he mentions that moving the saddle forward to feel less stretched out is a bad idea because that offsets the center of gravity of the rider with respect to the bottom bracket. This can result in too much weight on the hands. They, and also Neil from the video of Cam Nichols, also say that knee over pedal spindle is also a bad way of finding the correct fore and aft. I’m not pretending I know bike fitting, but who are we supposed to believe?

My only comments are I've just fixed my bike seat position fabulously, thanks and if you need someone with long arms to hold you tight, I'm your man.

Looking for a free tip. I do tend to get a sore right knee (left is usually OK)but what’s strange is that it’s fine then feels very painful quite suddenly, normally about 90 mins to 120 mins into a ride? I wondered if it was cramp but could it be related to saddle position?

Female here. Pressure pain front slightly left pubis. I keep shuffling back... pressure pain starts around 50k mark. My seat is like yours Katie, a lot of rail forward. Do you think maybe move a bit more forward?

Can Phil or yourself Katie recommend a bike fitter based in the Midlands please?

Velociraptor ❤

Not got sore back or knees but defo get numb nuts when I'm on the turbo

Fore and aft what are we on a ship.

QUESTION: I've been using the technique of placing my elbow against the nose of the saddle, and then reaching towards my stem with my fingers, to determine if the size of the frame / seat position/ stem length is appropriate for my body. Is this still a valid metric in today's world of bike fit?

Classic, a little T-Rex you crack me up 🤣

110K!!!

I keep repeatedly banging my knee against the top tube when sprinting out of the saddle, no other aches or pains after a long ride, so don't think it's my bike fit, looking at knee strap options, but don't want a dirty great big MTB style protector

Handlebar hight would be a good video if you havmade it yet

I have the opposite, short legs, long torso.

I hope Phil didn't advise that frame for you. The forward seat rails, and cockpit setup, and positive stem are an indication that frame needs to be smaller. Good example for others to see how to address stack and reach.

mine is all the way forward cuz my bike is to big and i can't afford a new one

Saddle fore atf shouldnt be used to tune reach. Saddle possition is about correct pedaling. Reach is corrected with stem.

I'm enjoying the theory to this but she is at least 3 - 4cm too high I'd say. Pause the video at 5.39 or 5.41 to see. Maybe they had to put her up that high to show the KOPS thing.

In my taxonomy for fitting bicycles, there are five body types: orangutans, dachshunds, tyrannosauruses, spider monkeys, and normals. Well, I guess we're all normal, but you know what I mean. Each type has its own set of fit issues. Katie's a T-rex, which explains the need for a short, high stem.

Great stuff thanks for the tip! My ONLY concern is, when speaking, SLOW DOWN. hi our words at times are running together. Hard to understand you sometimes.

foward saddle gains more height, back saddle get shorter lenght

🦖 🚲❤️

Same here Katey, I'm a man with the same thing, short torso, long legs. We're sexy!

I think it’s best to just go down 1 size , u never want to be to stretched out on those long rides 20miles plus

He got it wrong. You need to raise the saddle height if moving it forward.

I'm just a random guy on the internet but from the kops demo it looks like your saddle is waay too high.

How about you ride you favorite bike in one of those T-Rex blow up costume… 😂💪👍🙏🥂

My own problems is a get a bit of a numb bum ! & and very tight up hill turns my foot will hit my my front tyre !!!!

After a good number of years of trying loads of different saddles I came to the conclusion that there is NO such thing has a comfortable saddle. Think about it. I’ve sat down on a chair at home or work - after a couple of hours your up out of ya chair with a numb arse, so when your basically sat on something not much bigger than your mobile phone you get a sore botty. It’s that simple

I fit my bike myself using guidelines I found online and in books, with the help of a LBS that helped me build up my bike and gave me a quick & dirty fit. 20 years later not a single back, knee, foot, neck or other pain. Sure, "only" 10-12k miles during that whole time. I'm not that serious a cyclist. But it's not nothing. I also use SPD-SL yellow float cleats. My saddle's also barely padded.

Very long leg and very short torso, relative to ‘bike industry standards’, is not that abnormal… Bike manufacturers stopped making women specific fit bikes is a travesty. You can’t believe how many times I have heard woman saying they always have a hard time finding a bike that fits them….

ahhh ok - so the reason T-Rexes were rarely seen on bikes is probably because bike fitting was not yet invented at the time - or ???

Why is it that Ausies speak so fast.

While it's probably a good video on explaining the 'How to' - I wish He'd speak a little slower , more clearly. I find it difficult to understand him..

Why are all the bike fitters British? We don’t have cyclists in America?

A whole pile of BS. No two persons are the same. Fit your bike according to your own body geometry and your own bio-mechanics. Only beginner cyclist will eat this crap up, experienced cyclist know what works for them. How do you explain a 65kmph sprint and you are way on the front end of the bike generating maximum power. Try that positioned on the rear end of the bike and see how much power you can generate.

💓