Putting timing and accessory drive at the back of the engine is ass backwards, true. However with their quattro drivetrain being longitudinally oriented, makes center diff placement behind the engine to get the half shafts to the front wheels incredibly tricky.

Typical German over-engineering

"hang it all as far forward in the chassis as possible." They've always been that way! Just Audi things.

“Complicate and add mass.” Apologies to Colin Chapman.

@@tomvisel2267 In the era of the Ferdinand Porsche-designed Audi (Auto Union) Grand Prix car it was a maximum weight rule instead of a minimum one. Hence the 6L supercharged V16! "The design team engineered the largest possible engine within the 750 kg weight limit. "

Haha

Or engineers who were liked the Toyota LE van but thought it was "too serviceable..."

BMW: hold my beer...B58!

In the Audi A8 and A6 the timing belt is on the front of the engine. When they stuffed this engine into the A4 chassis sold as S4 which is what this engine is they moved it to the back of the engine and changed to a timing chain. I sold my 2005 Audi S4 at 117,000 miles which was when I started hearing a little bit of noise on cold start. I'm sure it was an early sign of the timing chain guides failing which is the biggest weakness of this engine. At the time I sold the car I sold it for $8500 and replacing the timing chain and guides is about $6-8k dollars.

Reading about cheating always makes me sad, and making me never ever even wanna try dating

I'm losing it just watching this 😂

Im fairly certain that was their road to becoming one..lol

By the time he got the timing belt cover off I was like...yup, I'm never going to be able to put that back together

Practice lol a lot of it

That's all cleaned up in post.

Good to know. So you mean Audi intended to put even more chains than it already has?

@@speedkar99 Not more chains. But the auxiliary chain drive was originally supposed to wrap around 3 more sprockets, those which ended up being gears instead. This eliminated the noise issue but was more expensive to manufacture. You can see the 3 gears driven off the auxiliary chain drive in your tear down video.

Christian, fascinating to hear from one of the actual development engineers and very generous of you. You mention the RS4 but I believe this is from an S4 B7, which is a somewhat different engine - metal tensioners on the RS4, for one thing? Those engines are said to be less prone to chain failure? I notice the long hex oil pump drive, with a very shallow key depth at the pump end. This seemed to be a thing of Audi from this era - particularly the 2.0 TDI PD and early CR diesel engines; where the hex key, driven from the balance shaft, was 77mm. Many of those engines catastrophically failed, when this key rounded off. It was later modified to 100mm giving a depth into the shaft keyway of about 29mm, as opposed to 6mm, completely solving the issue. I have a 2006 Audi with such an engine and I fitted a modified 100mm one and now have over 256K miles on it without issue. Could and was the same thing ever an issue here? I much prefer toothed belts but you only seem to get them on 4 cylinder engines; engineers acknowledge them as a service item and so they normally make them more accessible; whereas chains are sold as 'for life', so they are usually not; so interesting what you say about the pressures from marketing. Of course in the old days of OHVs chains were short or even gears, so they rarely failed but I believe the only engines to drive an OHC via pushrods were those designed by W.O. Bentley, because he had a background in locomotive engineering and they were bullet proof. Regards.

I can't believe you actually came forward and took credit for designing this.

@@paullastname3426 🤷🏻‍♂️

Hahaha

I am waiting for the day when he uses their clothes while they're still being worn.

@@twentyrothmans7308 “here’s my brothers old shirt” *actively ripping it off of them* hahha

This engine looks so impressive blown apart laying on fresh cardboard.

And their toothbrushes.

hahaha, true story!

Good idea you get higher prices for scrap metal if you separate the aluminum from the cast iron.

If you are left with extra parts means that you are smarter than the engineers behind the engine 😂😂

If you have parts left over, it means you did the job correctly. At least, that was my motto. 😂✌️

We called it the bolt bucket😅

Glad you appreciate my simple video style

Seems like, instead of starting from scratch, this engine has just had countless items added on to what originally was probably a well-designed engine. Just an over complicated disaster!. Run a mile without a watertight service plan.

agreed. no filler, all info

Agreed! My only complaint is audio of his voice is considerably softer than the impact drill.

If I had this engine in the car I would constantly wonder when will it break down and will I get a colosal bill from the garage. What a shit design.

I was baffled that they would pick plastic to put in that spot. Of all the places?

I think Klaus is preferred. You got it nailed!

German here. These names are out some 50 years. Deutsche Bank made clear they don't like/need average Joe customers some 20 years ago. ING is common these days. No patience, know what your doing, or else. Have the tools you need, plan your work, or else.

​@@timtim8468 "These names are out some 50 years."😂 Anybody who works on European cars needs a full set of long & short Torx, E-Torx, XZN (Triple Square) and Ribe-CV bits or sockets and E-Torx wrenches. I often see the HumbleMechanic and Paul from Deutsche Auto Parts using 1/4" drive Torx bits on a ratchet instead of having a Torx screwdriver set which is kind of crazy though (seems inconvenient). On the bright side: this is an opportunity to buy more tools, and unlike their cars, German tools are high quality and made to last (though Japanese and American tools are also very good, of course, while most DIYers can make do with mid-range Taiwanese tools that are generally very good quality these days). Of course, all internal drive fasteners are fundamentally flawed when they hold high torque as they tend to break the bit rather than the fastener, which is inconvenient.

They are easy to work, just don't buy a chain driven one.

@@DaBeast3 When you do not drive that much, a chain is the way, it does not expire buy the calendar. A belt in an engine like here is a mess too, some 10ft long.

Yeah right? I'd be carefully putting these parts down in some kind of orderly position all laid out, he's just tossing them lol

he's probably selling for material, not really putting it back together...

Yeah taking apart an engine just some hard work. Putting it back together? Well that’s a whole other story.

He does tear downs thats it. he dont piss around putting back together

that engine hasnt had an oil change in 10 years

What do you expect from a vw .they should beg maserati and ferrari to teach them how to build a good engine

Accessories on chains is not a good idea

Complex trash

Complexity is the enemy of reliability.

It sure is intricate and interesting to see but not to actually do work on.

For a timing chain job, the engine does not need to come out. They remove the transmission and access everything with the engine still on. Had the timing chains done on my 3.0 TDI. These old German luxury cars are quite popular where I'm from, so people aren't too afraid of the complexity and many know how to work on them.

It is designed to be too expensive for poor peasants to own. When new it's it's too expensive to buy and when old and cheap it's too expensive to maintain. Audi don't want unwashed driving their cars its bad for their image

@@speedkar99 Agreed, as Audi has become another VW Group disaster...] Comparing this engine to the five cylinder in my Audi 4000 Quattro I am left believing that the V8 was designed to be smooth & vibration free at the expen$e of being high maintenance. My 4000Q has somewhere around 300k to 350k miles on it and has never had any major service, as even the head gaskets are original... [ you never know how many miles are on a 4000Q because the odometers start getting stuck at 120k miles. Over the sixteen years I have owned the car I have managed to put 18k miles on the odometer because it only turns for a few miles every other Tuesday before getting stuck again...]

@@1gl000 exactly. I do a minimum two of these a month. I do a lot of the 3.0 tdi too. It's not that bad. People just expect a single chain like on the old Chevys and Oldsmobiles

He is an engineer by trade

I remember him saying he has a degree in engineering but it's nothing compared to what he learned on the field

@Retired Bore great point!

Are you five years old? pointing out what we all saw and heard in the video

I have a chemistry degree not an engineering degree. But my experiences with tradesman and engineers are very opposite. I’ve had a pretty colorful work history. The tradesmen solve all the problems the engineers create haha.

What’s pita?

@@Jayderzomb Pain In The Ass

NOTHING in an engine is lifetime. Manufacturers just don't expect you to own a car for more than like, 7 years or 150k miles or something. Timing chains WILL wear out no matter how well maintenance is done. The majority of engine wear happens upon a cold start, when engine oil cannot properly lubricate, even with the variable viscosity oils of today. Most engine oils are extremely similar in viscosity when at operating temperature, and only show differences when cold. You could have two 10w30 oils, one conventional and the other synthetic. The synthetic will flow better than conventional even though both have the same rating. But synthetic oils will still not properly lubricate when cold, so the best you can do to increase the life of your engine is frequent oil-changes to prevent the various additives in the oil from being used up, and driving your car like a grandma until the engine has reached operating temperature.

Try using full stops at the end of your sentences.

@@elroyfudbucker6806 id nots verry sma ma ma art. And try not to keep having sex with your sister

I have several Lincoln 4.6 V8's and they all go to 300-400k without any major repairs. This design is horrible. You as the owner should not have to upgrade internal components to get 150k. I'm glad you did it so at least you have a dependable and long lasting engine

There is updated tensioners for the chain rattle at start up. Can be replaced without removing trans or engine from vehicle. Just remove rear upper timing covers and replace tensioners. This is for supercharged 3.0 and 4.2 I believe.

They have to look after the guys in sales too by ensuring the car doesnt last too long

The early 4.2 v8s were timing belt in the front instead of that timing chain mess in the back.

"the 4.2 V8 in the first gen R8 is considered a really reliable engine by nearly all who own one" - Because nobody drives more than 10.000 miles a year with an R8. On an S4, S6 or A8 this looks different, those are used as everyday cars. Then the problems start.

@@haramaschabrasir8662I’ve driven Audi’s for the last 25 years. Never had a single issue with any of them.

i highly doubt it, or you baby them. Drove over 25 years AUDI´s here in germany. @@achosenman9376

@@achosenman9376 you didnt need to tell everyone youre a masochist. We kink shame around here

Hah Good story

History shows that Henry Ford liked Germans a bit too much.

Henry Ford was a Nazi and would love modern "designed to fail' products after all he was a cut throat bussiness man who wanted profit at all costs. He supported Hitler until it was obvious Germany would lose then he suddenly became a "patriot" he wasn't your friend or a "nice guy"

​@@apricity69 Very good!

Yeah, ol Henry liked Germans so much he helped Boeing get better at making bombers and dedicated his factories to building vehicles and machinery to support the US war effort.

same!!! Satisfying sounds of bolts being reverse driven 😌

Mark - the sad reality is as follows. Corporations and those who still work for them don’t actually care about the environment - they do however have to meet ESG scores which are nothing more then another system that masks what is really happening: socialism. It’s just simply been rebranded as environmentalism…. Your average mindless mouth breather out there is in denial of this but eventually even the most feeble minded conformists will get it. I don’t normally do suggestions - but if you really want an epic well made production that puts it in perspective checkout dayz of noah channel. Prepare to crap your pants!

Lol the plastic valve covers from B7's are by far better than the metal ones in B6's. They sell for good money currently

That entire engine is waaaay too complex, piece of junk

@@ryanthompson2893 so you don't understand how it works and that makes it junk lol. Thank God I only take advice on this motor from people that have brains that work properly.

@@ryanthompson2893 'If' they hadn't cut corners on the cheap plastic bits, it would be a great engine, bearing in mind the sort of power they make and that nothing was really wrong with anything except the chain guides.

Yet Audi say to do 15,000 mile changes which doesn't help the longevity of the engines. I don't think German car manufacturers care what happens to their vehicles beyond the lease. If anything their older cars becoming troublesome and expensive to maintain might be deliberate to encourage people to upgrade to a new lease on the latest model?

very misleading he not ever once mentioned timing belt 4.2

Audi doesn't want their vehicle to last forever.. because they lost profit in doing so.unlike the Japanese manufacturer

@@hermanbinngavionohermanbin8371 Yes I know many who changed from Audi to Tesla. Far happier now.

My friend has a 2.0 tfsi and it gets 5l of fresh oil every 5000 miles, replacing what it burns!

What year was your s5??

Thank you very much!

He's a mechanical engineer

Scrap.

your RS6 had a timing belt at the front of the engine. way easier to service than the 4.2 chain driven shown in this video.

@@retiredbore378 The metallurgy was a problem at that point in the war as the Germans didn't have access to the metals that would have given a longer service life. The axial flow design is still the used in jets today so the basic concept was correct.

Hahaha, ridiculous. The V8 Audi was and is the best and most reliable car I had (and have) in 40 years of driving. And 400 to 500,000 kilometers without almost no service are not unusual for these engines!

YA YA but we 'almost won the war' we just ran out of time.

​@@turbocontinentalThe other cars must be real crap if an audi was your best car.

​@@SkinPeeleRapply engine oil to overheating area

German Brewery? The only German company I know that has a similar name to anything automotive is the tuning company Oettinger

They are called oetiker clamps and you can buy a servicing kit from brewery supply houses for inexpensive. the special tool is just a front-cutter plier. they are constant tension and won't back off like wormgear style clamps. its used on a lot of german cars.

@@wacabby Oetiker clamps are also used on some EFI fuel supply lines, for the constant-tension aspect you mentioned.

They are not obscure, they are commonly used for fuel lines.

German car companies tend to manufacture things where servicing requires special tools specific for that part… good money grab for them but pain in the ass for us mechanics 😒

they get way too much flak for this engine and it isn't even that bad.

@@barfoom it is terrible for most people lol but interesting to know the background. I dont think ir excuses the terrible maintenance cost, and the decision to fit an engine that doesn't really fit in the car without compensating repairability.

Wait, the A6 and S6 have front ends of different lengths?

Must be some internal Audi engineers challenge. If the C5 needed longer fenders to accommodate a V8, it would make sense to try the V10 on the C6 next. A real master class in creating silly constraints and then making things infinitely complicated to work around them with absolutely no regard for repairability. 👏

​@@rj6110 yes, indeed, so that the engine can be serviced via replacing a timing belt instead of removing it for dealing with a chain.

The head design doesn't have to with torque. Torque is measured through the friction in the threads and clamping force. They don't care about fastener type because not the same person or machine is installing it on the production line.

yes it is for making it harder for hobbyists to fix it fast or just to drive home more repairs or new part buyings .

@Retired Bore I know an ex BMW engine production line worker, taken on from an agency, never seen inside an engine before, given a mornings training then set to work attaching timing chain assemblies to engines. Allotted time for this task was 90 seconds, this was within the last ten years. A different head driver was used for each type of fastener to ensure bolts were given the correct tightening force.

@@kevinbradley172 Makes sense to me, it’s just a task.

its called moron engineering,

Nothing beats the American V8's from the '30's to the '60's.

@@godfreyberry1599 So goddamn true

Awesome. Glad you find tranquility in something so mesmerizing

@@speedkar99 Keep up the great work.

That's potatoes compared to the chain slides. You can change phasers while the engine is in the car and that issue isn't unique to Audi v8's. Even my Toyota rattles in startup.

I wish I had watched this before I bought my $90K 2013 S6. Which had a transmission that lasted for 60,000 miles. Replacement quoted by the dealership at $20,000 and they were the only ones around that could do the job. That made the car literally worthless and I junked it.

I'm not familiar with Italians, and have generally had stigma about them, but what you told, sounds just like appreciable redundancy for sake of reliability.

@@TheSimoc Too bad they aren't known for making reliable cars. Expensive fast ones, sure. But not reliable.

@@Tattle-by-Tale Yes indeed, exactly the stigma I have about Italian cars..

As this is a german engine the reason for all these choises is probably to make 0.03% more efficient.

I know he is Swiss not German, but it looks like H R Giger designed the timing chain system

Simpler is ALWAYS better, that is why fully electric cars have 10 times less parts than combustion engine cars: They don't even need all these parts and it is the reason why they are so efficient.

That engine design is not perfection at all. It is a direct descendant (and reminder) of the badly designed engines predating WW2 in stupidness complexity that can't be easily serviced and cost the lives of many young men back then.

And don't forget the proprietary fasteners..... can't do anything with a standard bolt after all. This is just plain bad engineering. Yes they have incredible capabilities when it comes to designing parts and manufacturing to exacting tolerances, but there's a lack of restraint in German engineering I don't like. They don't seem to ask if they should do something only if they can do something. I'm a big fan of minimalistic engineering. Trying to do as much as possible with as few parts as possible. The Japanese are masters of this.

Correction: Perfection is actually when nothing is left to take away, whilst still delivering the intended function

​@@chrisward7038No. That's normal perfection. He was talking about German perfection.

Does the engine designer own stock in the company that supplies o-rings? Can we fit one more o-ring into the oil distribution system?

That's true. But it also holds for a Lexus LS460 or Toyota Century. Somehow the former have higher retained values as they age than a Audi A8 V8...

@Retired Bore If you buy a $8k LS460 that was $60k new, it is unlikely you'll ever spend $52k on repairs.

Thats why you buy ones with out the timing chain V8. $4k car.

@@TassieLorenzo Or just know what you are buying

Yep that sums it up

Crazy work / engenering involved to make it work. Bottomless money pit down the line 😡

I don't consider it good engineering. Good engineering is constrained. This is just gross. Complexity in place of doing the work to refine down the design into something practical.

No way

The V10 TDI has an all timing gear setup like a high-end motorcycle or racing engine, which is pretty nice!

Actually is an engineering marvel compared to the 1950's junk motor designs the US is still selling today! Only need to look at their Le Mans victories compared to any USA product to get your answer. That replacement is a 4 to 6 hour labor charge according to AUDI. Problem is the shortage of tech know how in the US 🤦‍♂🤦‍♂

@@c-teamtrading9690 🙄 The Ford Coyote is a perfectly good standard DOHC VVT engine. The latest Corvette LT6 DOHC V8 is similar to any Ferrari V8 engine. Audi aren't competiting at Le Mans, but the Porsche 963 is so "advanced" (or not) that it needs to race with 33kg less weight than the Toyota GR010 to have any chance to keep up... The engine installation of both the Porsche and BMW twin-turbo V8s are a total mess of wires, coolers and hoses compared to the neat installation of the 2.4L engine in the Acura/Honda with its tidy Formula 1-style air-water intercooler. The Acura engine is SO MUCH more compact and elegant than the so-called "marvels of German engineering". And I would NOT be surprised if the Cadillac with the LT6 is surprisingly competitive at Le Mans either. 😉 Yes, German engineers can design things that work well enough but they work *in spite* of their tendency to haphazardly add complication and whatever extra feature where-ever it will fit, not because of it. It's much more difficult to design something that is simple and elegant and uses fewer parts. Just compare the Honda K20C1 to the VW Audi EA888. For example, the MK8 VW GTI engine uses one solenoid per cylinder to implement variable valve lift -- requiring FOUR solenoids and FOUR connectors, whereas the Honda engine uses one solenoid and one connector to operate variable valve lift on ALL the cylinders. That's just the tip of the iceberg too... The Honda engine requires only two timing chains whereas the VW engine has three. The VW engines uses two serpentine belts (an extra one at the gearbox end to drive the water pump off the balance shaft) where the Honda engine requires only one (and the balance shafts are much more neatly incorporated within the oil pump). It goes on and on. Honda's turbo four is so much more of a simplified, refined & elegant of a design than VW's turbo four that there is no comparison! The VW engine is overcomplicated and messy by comparison, which shows that less (rather than more) thought has been put into its design.

thats why you buy the 4.2 timing belt

@C-TEAM TRADING I had a few of those outdated junk motors and while they were not as good as the stuff the japanese made they were not bad either. The 1960's vintage 3800 and 4T60 lasted 230,000 miles without catastrophic failure, not great but not bad either. The average driver does not have the same needs as a race team where performance is the only requirement and long term reliability and cost are no object.

Yes it's designed to fail after the warranty so you buy another one

What engine was it? Belt or chain

those are belt cars

Glad you like the video format... Thanks for the feedback

They make great lawn ornaments and look great in a driveway. It says "I have made it" Pick up a 4-5 year old one for 14/15 and just park it. They are a really nice looking well-appointed vehicle. You just can't afford to drive one! They are going all-electric in Germany so that should be just a swell idea eh? What could possibly go wrong?

Nissan transmissions and Subaru boxers

@@sierrachief117 Once Nissan joined the dark (Euro) side, I wrote them off, so I class them as Japanese/Euro now which usually results in several major problem parts. Wouldn't touch them. Subaru are one of the lemons I mentioned. I still remember wondering how they lubricate well enough. I soon found out they didn't. So, yeah generally avoid them as they are not relaible designs in general.

@@tenmillionvolts I don't know what forced nissan and mitsubishi to join hands with renault. Their worst decision. Neither of the three companies are doing good or even relevant in most markets.

I find kind of odd how Nissan until this day dont figured out a reliable automatic transmission in Mexico Nissan is a good brand but only because 90% of they cars are manual yes you can get an automatic but manual are cheaper and more reliable also if you car has the "pure drive" badge you are not going to be able to sell it easy

@@tenmillionvolts Haha I rebuilt three Subaru EJ25s just about in a row a while back, showing one of my buddies how they were poorly designed and how all six heads had warped and the next thing he does is go and buy one. I was flabbergasted. He's had nothing but problems out of that thing, but so far the engine's about all that hasn't gone wrong. Also, who the hell decided that when the check engine light comes on in a Subaru, the ABS and traction control gets disabled? Like, who said, "I don't guess I really want traction in the rain seeing as how my catalytic converter is getting tired?" Fricken idiots.

I also want to mention, I found 3 S5's V8 with timing chain issues. All 3 owners changing oil every 12-15k miles.

Agree

you audi fansboys never are stubborn lol.

There are large amounts of Japanese vehicles that are a pain in the ass to work on

Or rather if you don't have the money to work on it. They are not really much more complicated to work than any other engine. Just takes exponentially more time.

They're good machines when working well.

They're not more complex, they're just unnecessary and meant to be serviced by Audi themselves. It's apparent that not once during designing Audi engines do they want Bob to work on his own engine, and if he does he'll need to buy an entire set of tools especially for Audis. Also; you're*

if you bought an audi then you dont know what youre doing.

@@rkan2 cool story bro but i dont buy it

I think the Japanese engineers would lose their minds seeing how poorly this engine is designed.

@@youtubasoarus That's very true, when Audi engineers see a problem, they design a bigger problem to solve the earlier one 😅

@@MEU2k 🤣

Scrap.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Yikes!

But Audi makes the best driving cars anywhere.

The fact they reach 400-500k miles with just proper maintenance, especially the 3.0 diesel v6, is kinda nuts lol.

It's German! Always overcomplicated

German

Not really a genius but I understand your excitement.

Yea

Yes it sure is interesting to see how all these things collaborated together with so many features to get it to work! There could have been some redundancy reduced here which would have helped simplify it.

lol cool story bro

Agreed! Thanks

exactly my thought :D!

I truly expect 300k miles out of a properly maintained engine most audi's struggle to get 80 k now without major repair

They was the great timing belt 4.2 V8. I stay away from the timing chain design one unless it has the RS4 tensioner upgrade. I own 2 running belt 4.2 V8s. One with 32 valves the other 40. They have been great. My buddy has a 40v tb 4.2 with 300k on it.

@@neilduncan8657 I got mine to 170k but I think it's toast now

@@senseicorey9979 Timing belt 4.2 V8 Audis engine have nothing common with next gen chain timing v8s.

What is the symptoms? Engine codes? Or explosion?

His wife makes coffee tables trom blocks

Metal is recycled to use in Teslas. Hence no Tesla teardown done here. 😊

@@MEU2k Yeah, yummy cast iron. That sounds very safe, and defiantly what you want a car built out of 🤦

@@MEU2k yea can't wait for that tesla engine tear down

@@tikkeh Tesla doesn't have a "engine"

I dunno, if you see the horsepower numbers that modern motorcycle engines put out these days you realize just how weak most modern car engines are. 150bhp per ton is nothing when you can get a motorcycle making 250bhp where the whole thing weighs less than HALF a ton. It makes me think you were being sarcastic with that comment. A 300hp car engine is not impressive especially when it's as overengineered as this one. These engines aren't being engineered to make more power or for more reliability, usually it comes down to emissions BS and trying to get more efficiency. The complexity is impressive but cars were "solved" decades ago, it's hard to improve on the basic concept and refine the near-bulletproof engine designs of yesteryear. The modern car industry revolves around adding needless complexity, to make cars harder to service for average people and I'm sure in some ways to make them less reliable so they can sell more cars. They could make a bulletproof engine if they wanted to, but they don't, how would they make as much money if people just kept the reliable models and repaired them to keep them on the road? (Also based off your username, whatup fellow Meshuggah enjoyer. Very sick bass you got there.)

They're scrapped

Me too

Me too, and I'm a spanish with far from great english pronunciation :D

Yeah that's what I'm hearing. Timing belt is better than chains in the VW world....and it's not just this engine either

I still see so many older 4.2 v8 so on road . Mostly q7s

Yeah I heard the older version was alot better

​@@derekbk9093Thats because the 4.2 BAR q7 engine is 100% different than the 4.2 BHF engine found in the b6/b7 s4. 32 valves vs 40, different rotating assembly, completely different heads, FSi vs port injection, They come with metal guides from the factory like the RS4. The engine in the Q7 and the RS4 are very similar. You see very few RS4s with timing issues. Pretty much the only thing the BAR and BHF share in common is the displacement and oiling setup.