Ngl, the second I heard Lae’zel say that she ran away in the sewers, I was as instantly like “You’re not Lae’zel.”

Orin never had a childhood, and her murders seem to take a quality in which she incorporates play in her own twisted way. Just a thought!

Many cult predators began as cult victims. Orin is no exception.

orin is the visually artistic prodigy in a family full of athletes and bards.

I relate a lot to Orin. Not in the murderous tendencies way, but in the constantly wanting that feeling of acceptance. I was the “gifted” kid growing up. From a young age I was told that I was “more mature” or “smarter than most”. As I grew older however,what I was once praised for was now a bad thing. “You’re too mature for this.” Or “You’re too smart for your own good.” Those types of sentiments. Which led me to doing anything I could to get those positive regards back. I took on too much work,I strived to make everything I did perfect,but it only made things worse. Suddenly I “tried too hard” or was “fishing for compliments.” All the while,my own sibling was being praised for the same things. It’s that being put on a pedestal,and then falling off,but being unable to climb back on that relates me to Orin. She was a prodigy,lifted up so she stopped developing mentally,and then had all that ripped away from her and suddenly finding herself being the mistake. She had no chance of being anything more than what she was and it’s heartbreaking that I relate to her in this way. I don’t think she could’ve been redeemed in game, but she’s a prime example of villains aren’t born,they’re made. Also,this was stupid long and I apologize.

16:30 Orin can actually show up at camp as the companion she's pretending to be. But you have to rest at camp right after Gortash tells you about the imposter in your camp, and a lot of people tend to go to the sewers instead. If Orin is pretending to be Lae'zel in the camp scene, she threatens to kill Yenna, and will go through with it if you don't convince her not to.

The parallel between Orin bringing an arts and crafts vibe to the cult and me in my fly ass looks living in a monastery are undeniable

I love Orin, she is the weird flavor of female characters who are actually cringe failures, she's annoying and not that smart and I love her for that. I think the main thing about Orin is the fact she sucks at being a bhaalist, in a similar way that Shadowheart sucks at being a sharan, she cares too much, she puts too much of herself into it, and at the end of the day the objective of Bhaal is "kill everyone" doesn't matter who, when or where. So her art n crafts view of murder its similar to SH having a pet rat and openly praising Shar, it's none consequential, some might even say good. But to the cult is a transgression, something that's distracting you from the true purpose of your god. The thing about Orin that makes me love her, it's that in her failure she saved the world, either she took out the DU and doomed the plan that otherwise would have killed most of the world (As, when you explode Gale in act 2, it tells you how most everyone died by either becoming or being eaten by a mindflayer) or she gave the DU a possibility of redemption (again, destabilizing the plan and dooming it) and it pretty well explains why she wasn't the original chosen (I think there's even some letters that say it) Orin believes she knows better than Bhaal. When in reality she's just someone who is desperate for affection and trying to prove herself to people who are incapable of caring.

Orin is such an important character for redemption durge and makes their journey so interesting like this person who gave you brain damage, nearly killing you, is the catalyst for you to be able to learn to be your own person and show the middle finger to a god! I imagined my durge _thanking_ a confused dying Orin for everything she did for them cause in a twisted way my durge would not have found their family without Orin

Durge playthrough completely deflates Orin's character. In a Tav playthrough Orin is scary and insane, someone you should be afraid of. In the Durge playthrough she is the annoying younger sister who is jealous of you being the favorite, and steals your toys.

The tragedy of Orin is that she never stood a chance.

The cycle of abuse is one of the most important themes in this game, and Orin is a character that continues the cycle with no chance of leaving it. I have no sympathy for her, but no hate either, just pity.

Second comment to say that I've told my friends that this game is about cycles of abuse, and no one illustrates that more than the Chosen. Religious abuse. Familial Abuse. Societal/Communal Abuse. Ketheric sought solace from the gods, but in the end, received nothing in return until Myrkul revived Isobel, and even then, in his moment of greatest need, Myrkul cut his loses and ran. Gortash lived in a poor family with parents that didn't foster his gifts nor temper his worst attributes. When his parents sold him to Raphael to settle their debts, he was treated like absolute dog crap, to the point where he even seems to have adopted Raphael's philosophies to the point here he agrees with Raphael's methods and ideals. He adopted the ways of the Hells because it was the only way he could survive, and upon his return, found a God who not only espoused those beliefs, but rewarded them. I'm willing to bet money that the thing that elevated Gortash to becoming Bane's chosen was betraying Karlach and then utilizing that betrayal to benefit himself. Orin's very conception was an act of abuse perpetrated by those she should have been able to call family, and it never got any easier or better from there. Lied to, dehumanized, made inferior, and then, in her eyes, seemingly mocked by being provided a *helper* of all things from the being she's been working so hard to please, the being she calls Father...

6:45 Oh you couldn't murder your daughter? "Skill issue" (This shouldn't have made me laugh as much as it did)

All three of the chosen of the Dead Three are characters I'm capable of feeling sorry for while also recognizing they are too far gone to be redeemed.

I agree that the way Sarevok uses the term "girlish" could be interpreted as misogyny, that was my first thought too, but my second thought was it was probably a reference to her maturity. Or, rather, her immaturity. Sarevok is older (and not inbred >.>), formerly a champion of Bhaal and now serving him in death. Sarevok knows more than his grand/daughter what their Dread Progenitor wants from his offspring, and he knows that Orin is prone to the same arrogance that led to the Dark Urge's downfall. After all, look at how she treats her Butler, a gift from Bhaal himself. To him her actions are the height of thinking she knows better, and that, at this point, only her own death will teach her.

i love your dissection of characters- you find the human in each one and fully illustrate their arcs and motives and it’s just wonderful i love your brain thank you for making these

I think the misogyny resding is a misreading, on the basis that sarevok supported his daughter. I think the point she goes about killing in a far more handcrafted way is more to the point. The bhaalspawn transformation itself shows that Bhaal desires bloody carnage, not artistic display.

You have no idea how excited I am to see that you decided to analyse Orin after the companions and the emperor!!! I love her sm (Durge player here) and honestly? To me, she's such a sad character. Sure, Ketheric and Gortash have their own sob stories, but they both had some measure of choice in becoming what they are. Orin though? Never stood a chance. She was *literally* born and bred to be a tool for Bhaal. She never had a life outside the cult, like Durge did in their childhood. Orin was made to be an instrument, and if you make her doubt for just a moment when you meet her in the Bhaal temple, Bhaal just forcibly takes over. Any autonomy or agency she ever appears to have is an illusion. Its so tragic

I’d wager Bhaal is also in on the misogyny and playing favorites. Orin never gets a compliment from Bhaal until she dies! When you kill her in the duel as Durge, Bhaal remarks “I expected the other [Orin].” Yet at every other turn it’s clear that Durge is the favored of Bhaal, but I guess maybe spurning her all the time is a calculated move by Bhaal. It’s what drives her.

An excellent look at Orin, a character I had never thought deeply on. I always saw her, as you suggested, as the “unredeemed” Durge. Particularly good calls on the misogyny of her treatment and the nature vs nurture differences between Orin & Durge. My favorite criticism of Durge by Skeleritus was the horrifying tale of how Durge once gave a coin to a beggar and then spared him. I usually joke that anything is forgivable if you’re cute enough (Astarion), but in the case of Orin and Durge I’m not sure. Great take. Thanks.

understanding a villain you hated on is a VERY humbling (but not unwelcome) experience😭

No, time to turn the world off for a moment. Don’t bother me. New pocket leaves video is up, I can’t be interrupted 😊 Seriously, I absolutely LOVE the deep dives you do. It’s always a good day when there’s a new upload of yours to look forward to 😁

Sarevok has a huge redeeming journey in BG2, as your companion. Its really cool to see him grow and reject bhaal after realizing he was never going to rule and was always destined to be a pawn. Unfortunately that story is based on character decisions which generally cant be assumed to be canon, however his discoveries of bhaals manipulation happen either way. But its totally invalidated in BG3, Where Sarevok is Bhaals favorite pawn. It was a waste of a great story. Although we do see a similar journey with Minthara, rejecting Lolth and the absolute. But the biggest issue with her, is she never got enough story. Imagine getting Mintharas story but with all the more context and backstory that Sarevok has. We were so close! Also Orin is cool too. Lol sorry, i like Sarevok.

Yes I think its perfectly fine to relate to some aspects of evil characters. People sometimes confuse real life with fiction and think its weird someone likes villain who does evil things bit I am always like hey just because I like them doesn’t mean I accept their actions. Sometimes its about those relatable aspects which speak to me and its usually some trauma from childhood those characters went through which I can relate to and it makes me feel seen in a way. And sometimes its that tragedy of those characters hidden under layers of lore which make me like them in the first place

I think one thing people don't touch on enough, is that changelings are Fey, not humanoids. And Fey in the forgotten realms have innately a very alien form of alignment. So her acting much different than her human allies would like just makes so much sense. Like her mentality is literally alien to humans. So her not having good human connections, I think has less to do with her family being shit and more to do with she literally doesn't have that innate desire for human connections. The only connection she wants is with her deity. Changelings by nature do not have the innate emotion to trust others. Their entire lives is built on lies and deceit.

I found her fascinating. She was definitely one of my favourite villains! You did (another) great job at explaining her complexity and motives! Thank you I’m really enjoying this series 😊

Orin is yet another character that showcases the fact that the theme of BG3 is Autonomy with a lot of character arcs revolving around utilizing their own choice for the first time. Also i like how you can find a dead Durge if you play as Tav. Looks like she won in that timeline

I adore these analyses ^^

Your Baldur’s gate videos are so good 😩

i genuinely live for these videos

Good video, voiced a lot of thoughts I've had about Orin as well 🙌

Just wanted to say this video was really nice and feeds my current bg3 addiction well and you have such a heartwarming laugh/giggle, I just wanted to point that out

yet another amazing video

He must led the Murder March to Baldur’s Grave was definitely a bar

As someone who fought a lot of bhaalspawn at Saravok’s side, I was disappointed that he went full monster in BG 3

yess ive been waiting for this!!

Orin comes across as a teenager I thought. Suspended adolescence maybe?

I’m someone who has only watched clips and not played the game. I think the misogyny thing for Orin in relation to the Dark Urge is kind of a stretch only because… well, the Dark Urge can also be a woman. They are fully customizable. So when Bhaal and the others favor Durge over Orin, it doesn’t really feel like it is because of gender. More so… skill issue. The gender doesn’t really matter, being an efficient killer is what Bhall prefers.

Great video! I usually like to think deep about characters like this but never expected so much depth to Oryn. I thought she was just a juxtaposition to Gortash with Gortash being proper, calculated, plays mental games, and hardly does killings himself and usually gets others to do his dirty work. While Oryn is just insane and outlandish. Such a great job looking so deep into this character and making me appreciate her on a whole other level!

I headcanon that Orin would idolize Lady Gaga because of her taste in fashion. Takes guts to wear pretty meat (literally)

love this look for the video, and a great look at orin who i never bothered to look at much.

I stretched canon a bit by making my redemption Dark Urge character Orin's twin sister. Her name was Remi and she was more calculating and less impulsive than Orin. They had a sibling rivalry from birth, both heavily competing for Bhaal's favor. Orin's murder of Helena when they were children gave her the top spot for a while, but Remi won out in adulthood by devising the Absolute project. Orin got so angry that she ended up sabotaging the plan and turning Remi into a victim of it.

How to grant Orin the chance of redemption: 🤕🔨

I love what you said at 18:22 I always say something like “We’re the most connected we’ve ever been but also the most lonely” and that’s exactly why, it’s nice to hear someone else put that into words

Do you think that Orin could have potentially had a redemption like the Dark Urge if she had been the one betrayed and tadpoled?

would you consider doing a video on sarevok, if you’ve played the first two games? larian did him so dirty. he used to be one of the best written evil characters. he was intelligent and had a very interesting backstory. he was able to have a redemption arc as well if his sibling (the player character) showed him an ounce of love and care. i adore bg3 but not how they handled sarevok unfortunately.

very cool to see the game devs come up with a reprehensibly evil character who also has a reason for why and how she became that way. it's something you don't seem too often honestly. I love Larian.

In BG2 Sarevok's story is about discovering himself without being a Baalspawn. So it's kinda disappointing to see him revert to being unambiguously evil.

i can fix her

While it could mean something relating to mysogyny, I don't think so. To me, it is the same as saying something is misandrist because someone said a man was acting like a boy. I think the line refers to the childish nature of her elaborate kills. Gortash even seems to communicate this when he compares the way you and Orin kill when you first meet him. Orin is like a caricature of the dark urge, whom seems to be trying too hard to impress people. And when you try too hard to impress people, that could backfire and make you look desperate.

i know what it's like to love a father figure with your whole being but to never be enough for them. to never be what they actually want. i get it orin, i really do.

It didn't occur to me the misogynistic view with Orin and now I feel so bad! I played a male Dark Urge and joked about the pre-amnesia time being “me and the boys” (Gortash, Ketheric, and my male Durge) 😅

As a person with borderline personality disorder i can see we share something in common :( and i felt so much compassion after talking to her mum's corpse. Bruh, what a fucked up family when you're always not enough

Orin is my silly murder hobo fantasy. Sometimes I’m just so tried and going apeshit is a vibe. I’m making a murder hobo oc for them to commit murder together and be sadistic. This OC is the epitome of my urges from “I make art cuz murder is wrong”

BABE WAKE UP NEW POCKET LEAVES VIDEO JUST DROPPED 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️

that MCR joke has me imagining sarevok listening to the black parade on like an ipod nano that would have been around when the song came out -- with the little white wired earbuds inside his big spikey helmet -- interpreting it through a bhaalist lens and kinda getting the whole thing backwards but relating so hard to it that he gets genuinely emotional and misty eyed

Great insight into Orin, would love to hear your thoughts on Minthara!

YIPEEE NEW VIDEO!!!

The tragedy is that fucking 11 hit shields holy shit

16:20 she can actually show up in camp!! My last playthrough I didn’t get to the sewers for a while so she showed up in camp as Lae’zel and was trying to convince me that Yenna was Orin, and then I had to choose between her and the kid. Chose to kid, she revealed herself and Orin and let Yenna go.

These are good vids

when you said "minthara" in an orin video and that everyone loves her too if they love orin I had bo choice but to subscribeeeeeee 🧚‍♀That aside, great video! I loved how deep you were actually digging into her personality

Orin can actually show up at camp! If you don't enter the sewers for a few long rests she'll show up at camp. I find the misogyny angle really interesting if you play Dark Urge as a woman because unlike Orin, the Dark Urge basically had to be abused into being as depraved as they were, whereas Orin did not. So for Orin she does all this stuff for Bhaal yet because the Dark Urge was born as a pure child of Bhaal, because the Dark Urge worships Bhaal in the way men like Sarevok want, she is favoured over Orin.

Did anyone notice that in the normal playthrough, Orin's room has a dead, pale dragonborn next to her bed? Yup. The Dark Urge exists even in the normal route, and was betrayed by Orin , BUT they died in the process... Makes you wonder if the normal, "Tav" character is dead or unaffiliated in the adventure during the Dark Urge playthrough... 🤔

Orin is literally my favorite character next to Wyll.

If you don’t go to the sewers for a looong time (which i did kinda by accident) she will come to the camp as yenna if you let her stay (idk if she comes as anyone else)

I've had Orin in camp as Lae'zel try to convince you to let her end yenna the orphan

Unrelated but your makeup and whole look is fantastic here

man this made me realize that if you ignore the murder part that orin is an extremely relatable character and that i might kin her

I love viewing her story through the lense of misogyny. It really made me look at her with kinder eyes even though shes diabolical.

As much as I feel bad for Orin's past she still scares the absolute shit out of me. Every time she shows up on screen I close my legs. tense up, and remain like that for a little bit even after she leaves. The last time a fictional character did that to me was in AtLA with Koh the Face Stealer. Also I don't see the other Bhaalspawns hating on Orin because she is a woman. I see it more as them finding any reason to hate on her because she was supposed to be the offering, not the Assassin.

Sarevok did nothing in bhaal name in the past, he wanted to become the new lord of murder.

Oh my god. Orin is a theatre kid.

You are the best

Quit giggling, it's way too adorable for me and makes me want to like you more.

Amazing work as always! however you did miss something with her impersonating your companions. I Don't know what triggers it but I know most the time I've seen the cutscene it's been in the elf song. But she will impersonate one of your companions doing something terrible to terrorize you before revealing herself. Lae'zel is threatening Yenna iirc. Minthara will say she killed another companion in self defense and that you and her are going to have to fight off the other companions because they lump you two together. Halsin will go wild and look like he hurt Scratch (he's actually okay). Gale will freak out and act like he's blowing himself up. I think Yenna kills the cat if it's her

Finally, A Lady Demitrescu Examination! wait

I laughed at 0:43 and I really like your flamboyant, quasi-gothic outfit. Dam, I can't imagine not being loved, even if I was most people's least favorite, I was still loved. I consider myself lucky all things considered.

I hate lobster women for almost ruining my honor run

You can actually get the origin cutscene in camp btw

I don’t think it’s a issue with her femininity, in regards to worship I think it’s very similar to the irl issue of different ideas of how to please god because even if it goes unsaid her choosing to do it differently inherently implies she thinks the others are doing it wrong and it would occur to the others and that is quite an insulting prospect especially from what they likely see as a lucky/gifted upstart so there contempt is stemming from that ( that’s the impression I got at least)

You know if you play as evil dark urge if you tell orin your grandfather actually is your father bhaal tells orin I make you deserving sacrifice for my favourite child and force her become slayer

You’re so adorable and intelligent! Love your laugh as well (: Ive been adoring your thorough special interests videos, they are super easy to watch and understand!

22:40 I personally never saw it like that but I could 100% believe that there was some form of a relationship there but that both sides valued their gods over this personal attachment.

Ask yourself why "misogyny" is dismissed by a lot of gamers these days. Perhaps because it's been repeatedly misused for the last 10+ years since GG1?

One of my favorite theories for Orin is that she is unintentionally the true hero of the game, for a good run, because of her jealousy, she does what she does to Durge, and sets the motion for the failure of the Dead Three HAHAHAHA

I don't know if it is misogyny and moreso just abuse on a systematic level, but it's a very interesting interpretation that makes a lot of sense.

All that build up but i never found Orin or the ball( ik the real spelling but i can't resist ) cult intimidating , comical infact but kethric and gortash felt legit not only in their presentation but motives and the fights with them were genuinely difficult

You can actually meet her in camp before you know who she kidnapped. idk what triggers it but I've had it happen in more than one playthrough

MINTHARA RUN PLZZZZ WE LOVE EVIL WOMEN

I really wish redeemed Durge could redeem Orin. I also really wish there was more fanfiction along those lines.

My warlock Emrys hated fighting Orin. Both of them have similar backgrounds. Her parents intended to kill her . She's pretty much his reflection in a cracked mirror. She's trapped in the darkness. Whereas he's found the light.

“I don’t spoil the finale of the game” Which one?

I felt more like Orin's murders being called girlish was more like refering to her as a child, who plays with her food rather than about her gender.

I wish there was a different, and happy ending for her and some villains (other chosens etc) too.

Everyone talks about how Ketheric is so tragic but I honestly hate his stupid ass and think Orin is by far the more tragic villain. (Have heard about Gortash's tragic backstory but not actually seen/experienced the ingame lore so can't comment.) Ketheric was a grown ass man who had complete control of his actions at all times. All of the things he did for love were things that his wife/daughter would've absolutely hated, mourned, or been appalled by, which imo shows that Ketheric's actions are less motivated by love and more motivated by a desire to posess his family (mostly his daughter) as people he clenches tightly in his fist to never let go of. He sees entirely in terms of his own grief and how HE feels, never about what their desires are, especially his daughter. If Isobel successfully gets kidnapped, not only is Ketheric evil by ripping Isobel from her charges (people she clearly cared about protecting, or wanting to stop Shar's darkness as a cleric of Selune at least), he also puts A FUCKING MINDFLAYER TADPOLE in her and basically brainwashes her into going "oh thank you father now I understand the error of my ways." At heart Ketheric is a narrow minded, controlling bastard who decides he wants something (even something that could be good, like his family) and will sacrifice everything, even the entire world, just to get what HE wants. Every single decision he made was his choice as a grown ass adult with a wife and a child, raised in privilege and comfort and love with everything he ever wanted. Meanwhile at least Orin was born into a cult and groomed from birth to be crazy and evil. If she has this in common with Durge, she may even be compelled/inclined towards violence by the very nature of being the blood of Bhaal. Not only did she have no choice in where/how/to whom she was born, she may have been cosmically doomed by her very own blood/existence into being evil. There was no way for Orin to become any other person than the monster she is, and that's why I find her infinitely more tragic than Ketheric could ever hope to be. (And yeah, the thing is I normally love sad dads/daddy's girls in fiction, and I was ready to sympathize with Ketheric on that account at least, but the second I saw what he did with his daughter, the full force of my love for daddy-daughter relationships reversed from love into hatred for just how much of a sick fuck you need to be to forcibly kidnap your daughter and brainwash her into loving you bc you're so evil she wants nothing to do with you lmao)

A very good look at her story, I say. The power and, more importantly, the abuse of power seems to run as a constant theme throughout the game. And in case of Orin and the Dark Urge their stories for me happen to be about grooming. I didn't care about Orin in my first playthrough as Tav - "unhinged cackling murderer who talks iNsAaaNe about blood and stuff" is just not the type of character to raise my interest. I didn't even finished that first playthrough, when I started The Dark Urge one, saw Sceleritas and was like: "wait a minute..." He always talked about giving in to your nature or what not, but to me those urges never seemed natural. Be it intentional on creators part, or not, those always felt invasive, harmful - not only to the others around them, but to the Durge themselves. And even so the buttler positions himself as a mentor and your only friend (for the lack of a better word), at one point he basically admits, that he was watching durge and their partner together as it is he's "duty, to make sure you're making the right decisions". Like, your not afforded ANY privacy by your "ever adoring buttler". And he was with a Dark Urge for a long time before they lost their memories, saw them committing acts of necrophilia, etc... So when Orin came into the picture again, I felt kinda sorry for her. Gortash and Ketheric both were monsters by choice, they came to their masters and acted on their behalf with free will, but Orin? Yes, she thinks she's where she should be, but no one actually gave her a choice, did they? She was raised in a fallen cult by a man who failed to become a Chosen and made children to accomplish what he couldn't, she has never known anything else, and by the point you meet her - it's already too late. She did became sacrifice to Bhaal in the end - if not by dying on his altar, then by giving up everything else for her servitude. There is nothing you can do about it, but to hurt her even more with the truth. She really didn't need a buttler - because everything needed was already done by Sarevock and the cult.

Would love to see someone do a fan film about her life tbh (no incest scenes tho please) Minthara too

There is no real tragedy tbh. She embraced her evil side and took it to the max. It isn't a tragedy that she was born into circumstances barring her from any redemption at all. A tragedy, traditionally, is someone trying to be good in vain.