Just loud enough to annoy the neighbours, not so loud they call the cops

Hey thanks guys! I appreciate the nice words and sharing the video. It was fun to make and talk shop with my friends. It’s always about the “good loud” and the “right loud” for the room. Cheers! And I love your videos as well!

Amp Legs … lean that amp back and aim it at your head. This does four things. It aims it away from the first row, aims it away from the sound guy, lowers the volume you need to hear yourself, and it allows you to hear what you actually sound like. If you don’t like the way you sound with your amp pointed at your head, I have some bad news, you don’t like the way you sound. Change the EQ to what sounds good and then you’ll be sending a better sound to front of house. (The sound man is cutting your ice picky sound in the house anyway.) If you are playing arenas, you can disregard because your amps can be way back on the stage. Those people aren’t reading this comment. Lean your amp back. Amp legs do more for your tone than any part of the guitar because it forces you to EQ better.

I am a sound guy, 40 years experience, and my recommendation is for the band to adjust their levels to, as much as possible, hear each other comfortably on stage, balanced against the drums. If your amp is loud, or with a speaker box that ‘throws’ (like a quad box) then angle them more and more across the stage, the louder you want to go, the more you should point them across the stage. That way, if you are too loud, your band will tell you to turn the Fck down. The reason is that, especially in a smaller club, we are trying to balance the band against the loudest sound coming off the stage. If that’s the drums, well hey, there is not much we can do about that, but your amp …

“If a Deluxe isn’t loud enough, that’s a LOUD band.” - Guthrie Trapp I’ve played very few club gigs where a 20 watt tube amp wasn’t more than enough power, and many times I’ve turned a combo around to face the back wall.

Stage volume is the enemy in small bars if you want to have a consistently good mix and not kill the audience with volume. Run direct (Helix, whatever) or use a small combo amp and use IEMs. If using an amp, point it across the stage so the drummer and rest of the band hears your amp. Plus, the bar staff is happy that they (and their customers) aren't shouting at each other all night. Nothing drives an audience away like being too loud.

Just played a classic small bar on a bill of 3 bands. Each band was original roots music. The drums and bass shared a back line and each band’s guitar players played through “no louder than 12 watt” amps- a 5e3, a Carr Skylark, a Princeton, an old brown Fender deluxe, and a Magnatone Varsity. Gotta say that each band was EQ’d perfectly with just “our own ears” making the calls on levels. I’ve been playing live for 35 years. Best amps I feel are the 12-15 watts or less variety. Also, each guitar player tilted their amps back a bit...makes a big difference. I always use a heavy duty door stop that has about 2.5” of rise

The missing piece of this conversation is what type of music is being played.

For guitarists: Use appropriately powered amps for the venue, ie., use an amp you can get to it's sweet spot without the volume being to loud for the space. Stop bringing Marshall stacks into small pubs. Also, for the sake of your own tone, don't come in with a Marshall stack, dime the preamp/gain, and set your master to 1. it sounds like shit. For sound personnel: Stop telling guitarists who *do* bring in reasonable amps for the venue, to turn down their amps. They need to be at their sweet spot. If you're having difficulty, pull.. the.. god.. damned.. mic.. back a bit. And for everybody: I know this is just wishful thinking on my part, but stop blasting the PA to stadium volumes in small rooms.. for everyone's sakes.

The volume of your amp should be equal to the volume of the drums played acoustically. The rest of the volume should be carried of the PA system.

I use Weber Beam Blockers in all my gig amps/cabs. It blocks that initial beam of treble and makes the guitar speaker/cab disperse more evenly. If you have to point it straight at your head, you don't get killed by it. If you have to point it at your legs, it's not as dark because of the dispersion. And if you play a very small venue where the guitar doesn't even need to be in the PA, you can point it at the audience without worrying about killing the people who happen to be on-axis.

So many good points in the video and comment section. I would like to add something. There is a simple Free phone app that measures decibels. What I have become interested in is finding out exactly how much volume you really need to compete with drums. Obviously a skilled drummer that can "play the room" is imperative. I have found that about 70 db for clean and 75 at peaks with distorted tones is more than enough volume as far as the amps go to compete with drums. Drums average about 110 to 130 db. That's the most dynamic instrument and kinda sets the standard of what's required of everyone else. In a small room and a drummer that has control less volume will work fine. Maybe even 60 db from guitars for small spaces. I measure the decibels from each amp and try to balance them accordingly with the decibels phone app. It is extremely constructive. No more amp wars people. It's measured so if they are matched no body can say " dude your louder than I am". If they are unhappy or hard to hear it's probably because they have too much gain combined with scooped mids. Tonal variations change decibel readings without touching the volume at all. That's another subject to consider. Sound or front of house guys need to refrain from going straight to the fader when someone can't hear themselves. Sometimes it may need a smidge of mids on the amp and or the PA channel without just turning it up. Or maybe even just turn something else down. Facing the amps away from the crowd definitely helps but isn't always necessary. Another thing is that as you turn an amp up to over about 60 dbs, the treble needs to go down on the amp. Thats the frequency that's going to sound unpleasant and actually the most damaging to the ears. Keep your gain and treble in check especially if your cranking up loud. The cymbals are bad enough feeding into all the mics. Why add to the feedback problem with the guitar tones? With this approach you will find that you can get away with more treble in the vocal mic for intelligibility because you didn't overload the audience and mics with ice pick highs from loud amps. FYI I'm pretty sure two amps set at 75 decibels does not equal 150 db. Even combined they seem barely as loud as the loudest instrument, the drums. The EPA has done the studies and have charts available for guidelines for hearing protection and whats actually legal. A few decibels can make or break a mix. That's why it's important to use tools available to measure and actually listen critically. Stop looking at your amp settings and base your settings off of what sounds good. Listen with your ears and not your eyes. Protect your hearing as much as possible. It's a shame to develop a trained ear after years of playing only to go deaf in the end. That just sucks. Another point, what sounds good at home alone most likely won't work in a band setting. Get a base setting and expect to tweak it accordingly within the context of the entire band and environment. And yes a sound guy will butcher your tone with bad gain staging and poor EQ on the channel rack. Tell them to be modest with the bass and treble and keep plenty of mids. Alright I'm done. Sorry I tend to babble on and on.

Put your amp on the side of the stage facing the other side, if the other musicians do the same, you can hear everything without being to loud out front. And best thing....all you need is the vocals coming through monitors. Try it it works great.

The walls should be shaking

Silence of the Lambs song was “Goodbye Horses” by Q Lazzarus.

My neighbor was freaking out and banging on my door last night at 3:00 a.m. Luckily I was already up, playing my bagpipes.

I’m sitting in my jeep by myself at the golf course waiting to get out and watching you guys laughing my ass off. I have to get to your store and buy a guitar. Going to ask Siri how far it is from Michigan right now lol. Modelers be damned have a great day

Great conversation as always!!! But at the end of the day “ like my hearing more then guitar tone” lol thank you 🙏

In the old days we just cranked it up. I had a GK bass stack that could huff and puff and blow your house down. With modern PA systems, our sound guy decides how loud the band is since we are all using XLR out to the PA. Now our amps are small but can still get loud.

theres a kid that i've been like. dropping little nuggets of wisdom on here lately (sounds gross) (but its not i swear) and he is DYING to buy a 100 watt monster amp. something w tubes. something w a marshall logo. so i had him over and ran thru a BUNCH of different amps, jcm800 combo, 100 watt plexi, origin 20, and lastly, the amp that gets the MOST action around here. the katana....on 0.5 watts. and tried to show him the pros and cons of each one. 'hay dude you can really crank these smaller amps UP and still rattle the windows' absolutely no surprise the shootout just made him crave a gigantic amp even harder and he sent me a picture of a brand new 5150 iconic (80 watts) he just received in the mail. so monda, if you're here. i'm sorry for the uptick in volume at your house recently. i SWEAR i was tryna steer him in the other direction. but when you ground him from it, convince him to just leave that amp up here at my house...for safe keeping

Agree, I like my monitor mix so that I can hear myself but not so loud that it’s at the top of the mix.

its like overhearing a conversation on a bus and comb your hair

YES! I hate my guitar through the monitors.

In England, most gigs for amateurs and semi pros are in pubs with no sound guy. It’s all backline, no monitors and only the vocals through the pa. it’s even more important to not be too loud but you are making a compromise between being able to hear yourself on stage and getting a balance out front. Tricky.

Rule of thumb Not so loud your ears hurt but loud enough so that you can’t hear the bartender say turn it down

Yes, having the guitar amp in the monitor speakers is the most annoying thing about playing live that I have to deal with, and it is not that I am not hearing the actually sound of my amp. I have a wedge to point the amp’s speaker towards my head. It seems like I get a monitor mix with a fizzy guitar sound, and muddy vocals, and nothing else. I usually am playing a 16 watt 65 Amps Tupelo live, so I am able to get a decent tone at a low level that can compete with our drummer.

As a live audio guy I always like for the band to sound like a band before I put anything into FOH or monitors so I've been told that I'm very gratuitous with guitar stage volume and a lot of it is definitely just rolling back that treble knob so that you don't send the audience running out the door.

Loud amps are rock and roll, played itty bitty holes were we bring our own PA and sounds great, no monitors except for vocals, and big club stages where the sound guy insists on turning amps down (they already are) they pipe on nothing but guitar into the monitors and crank the treble on the mains cause the sound guys are all half deaf and it sounds like crap. Then you go see a show at the same club, with a semi famous band that has their own sound man, full stacks on 10 and it sounds killer. I think the sound guys need to calm the F down and just mix whats presented to them as its presented to them.

Found a great solution. Single channel Carr amplifier through Two Notes CaptorX. Sounds wonderful FOH, and in IEMS.

It starts with the drums, it’s the only thing there isn’t a volume control for. Get the drummer to calm down, the amps come down, the monitors come down and the whole mix gets better. If you’re louder than the PA, there is nothing I can do, it is what it is. All that work every one does to play well is lost if the mix in the house sucks. Some tricks I use: - gels on the drums - minimal (or no) instruments in monitors - kick the guitar amps back so the player is in the cone (they can be played a bit quieter - lower power amps so you can the tubes cooking

Everything dimed! No discussion

When I play my vintage 40w Fenders, the people 2 streets over know it.

Okay, so like I took my wife to a Halloween Alice Cooper concert, cause she's been a huge fan of Vincent's (Alice) since the 70's and I like him too. So the opening act was Ace Frehley who would have been Great, except he was so phreakin' loud my ears were SQUEALIN'! Now I've been around loud live music since the 70s, used to work for a small record co., played all the major Hollywood clubs (me doing lights back then) lots of concerts, etc, etc, etc. But ACE was SO Fookin' LOUD that people were actually leaving the show. Now that's BAD LOUD, BAD. So when the Coopster comes on with Nita and crew, they were good loud and actually had a healing effect on our ears. I have a FULL STACK in my bedroom and the next door neighbors can hear me in their upstairs bedroom with all their windows closed and mine too, and I ain't even Close to how loud Ace was that Halloween night. Note: I usually practice while they are at work ;-) ( BAD LOUD, BAD. )

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hates the tone of my Amps through the monitor. I want to hear my amp on stage if even little. My Magnatone sounded like shit in the stage monitors at Saturday's gig. I loveoud amps tho

I definitely agree with Eric Johnson being able to hear batteries. I don't notice it with most pedals, but my Analogman Sunface definitely sounded stiffer when I ran it off of a power supply. The GigRig virtual battery made is so I could get the voltage sag and underpowered circuit that creates the tone I love from the pedal. An isolated power supply provides near perfect power, but it is the imperfection of a used battery that to my ears softens the pedal a bit. Great video!

My amp is always dimed, and i use the guitar volume knob. Just choose the right wattage amp for right situation.

I like using tilt-back legs on my amps in some venues…..especially on a small stage where room is critical.

I had a post phase inverter master volume installed on my blackfaced 70’s Super Reverb and it’s Awesome. I can get the cranked sound at whisper levels if I want and I think it sounds Great. Why is that not more popular?! Volume is more important than tone because if you enter the volume wars, nobody wins.

Loud enough to be able to dial it back and be loud enough to be heard in any environment.

I started playing when there were NO monitors. We had to learn about mixing our sound on stage, and never stepping on the vocals. We learned about tone and whats happens with open mics. Now I’ve had great monitors. They were hi fidelity, but the monitors were drowning out the guitar. There was no dynamics. There was no way to play the volume for the parts… especially a funk tune where you have to finesse the chords. I play with 3 horns and one cannot believe the energy a baritone sax can deliver. I have to remind the FOH engineer there’s a big difference between Sound Reenforcement and PA. It’s amazing to see how much volume you can get on stage when you’re the headliner! My boss would say “sound man … your name is not on the marquee!

Great post today! I have played in bands and have mixed as well (50+ years) and I KNOW you need to get your amp to a level where you get what you need. I have seen both sides of the volume issue. (An Ampeg 8 X 10 in a small club is horrible to mix.. it's a constant battle to get the vocals up over that in combination of a loud power drummer) I had to walk away from one band because I simply couldn't convince them that the owners of venues were jumping all over me about the volume! I am a supporter of turning the amps cross stage and not aiming for the audience. Also, baffling works! Just saw the KENTUCKY HEADHUNTERS a couple of weeks ago, and both guitarists aimed their amps away from the stage into baffling, volume 10 Marshall, no pedals. Amazing tone! (Oh, and guitarist Greg Martin pulls two of the tubes in his amp head so that helps as well. Nothing through the monitors!! One other thing.. You guys love good guitarists and bands. PLEASE check out the GEORGIA THUNDERBOLTS!! Dual guitars, passion and tipping their hats to the great Southern Rock Blues greats (more rock)..

If a sound guy tells me to turn down. I do for sound check. Then back to 10 as soon as the show starts. They hate me every time.

Ya when I was younger big loud amps were the key. Now I got a pro tube Twin, a Mesa Boogie S O B and a Lab Series L-5. Now I need a stadium to play these in. I end up using a Hotone Mojo Diamond on top of a 1- 12 Celestion cab 90% of the time and using a D I box for signal to the FO H. So nice amps not getting much use

We set the volume so we can hear the other musicians on stage, keys guitars bass vox etc vocals clearly out front all this done that allows for patrons to engage in conversation that isn't impeded by band volume. if people can't converse and comprehend their conversation they will simply leave Proper stage volume is essential to successful club business

I still remember the Harley Benton video on this channel These people are snobs

I wish you had put the "modelers be damned" comment at the beginning of the video. I could clicked the X then and spent that 17 minutes of my life playing my guitar. Through my Kemper. Great tone at just about any volume you want or need. I wish I had this thing forty years ago.

Was told my mag varsity reverb was set too loud at sound check. Then during show turned my volume back up…same guy told me at the end of the show how great the lead and lead tones were lol…loud is more good

Bad sound guy; "You need to turn down your amp". Good sound guy; "how far can you turn your amp down and keep your tone?"

I actually came here FROM that video! But I have to be honest, because David Grissom's mic was messed up I simply could not continue watching the video. So... here I am. LOL Cheers,

Watching a recent limp Bizkit performance turned me from a lifetime non-fan into a fan. Fred has it going on now. The old man.

Jonathan can whisper. It’s dynamics man.

I had a Magnatone (2-12 w/ Vib) back in the late 60's, before I got married, got a real job, bought a house, and quit playing until I retired. Wish I had never sold it.

I've recently thrown in the towel...I play with several different bands in my area and more often than not, they want everything run through the PA (even in small bars) so I have a Quilter Superblock set up with my pedalboard running into it. The quilter has a XLR out...I just EQ it as best I can to sound good through the monitors...I don't love it but it is my reality. On the up side...load in/out is quick and easy.

Sound guys working with non celebs do not want loud amps on stage but push for monitors. Well, monitors are pointing towards the players not the sound engineer. He will judge the balance with ear phones. He knows he cant turn the drummer down on stage. Overall, the amps should be loud enough on stage for the players to hear them properly next to the drummer. But always work with the sound engineer prior to the start of the gig and do what he says. Then adjust your amp during or right after the first song. The engineer will be too busy to notice. Also, a good tip is to put the amp where you like it but turn your guitar volume pot way down so the engineer does not see the amp volume changing.

I’ve found (in my bands circle) that too many guitar players are afraid of turning the treble and mids up. I’ve seen so many bands that preform before and after us where their guitar player doesn’t cut through the mix no matter how loud they are. And the audience DOES care, they don’t notice that it is the tone doing it, but they will just think that the person they can hear better is the better guitar player. Since they can actually hear what you’re playing.

WHAT???? SPEAK UP!!!

Years ago, in the late 90s, one house engineer told our guitarist to put his 4x12 on the side of the stage, shooting across, rather than at the back shooting out. I say shooting, because that thing was VERY directional, like a sniper rifle.

My amp can be loud but I like the natural break up and nearly instant response I get from playing. I can feel a delay/lag when I use the attenuator or pedals but I like the natural break up within the amp so I have to use the attenuator in the signal.

I rarely play with a mic'd amp. Playing little dive bars, the PA is normally only for the vocals. Maybe the harmonica player. As such I am not used to hearing my guitar come back to me through monitors. Hearing my guitar that way creates a disconnect between me and my playing and I'm almost always unhappy with how it sounds. I really prefer to have my guitar sound coming to me from behind me. I'm also paranoid about being "the loud guitar player."

Went to a live rock show recently. Most of the bands were 100% direct. It was weird hearing the drums coming from the stage (and PA of course) and everything else PA only. Really missed stage volume.

We’re a Hendrix tribute,bonna shields have helped us immensely in our smaller venues

Side note, saw MCR Wednesday night and Holy shit they brought the house down!

I saw Dokken…yes Dokken in 1995…yes 1995…anyway saw them in a small club/bar in Syracuse and my friends and I stood in front of George Lynch…he was playing a full stack at an absurd level. We stuck it out and we all felt sick on the 35 minute drive home!!! My head and ears hurt for a full two days after the show. It was nuts, he could have played the carrier dome with his setup and it was a bar with about 700 people in it!

your dynamics should coexist with the dynamics of the drumset, imo. The snare being your peak db, learn dynamics and how to mix yourself live

I saw ACDC in a small venue in the 80's, that was waaaay too loud.

I believe the song you’re referring to is “Goodbye Horses”. Couldn’t tell you who it’s by though. I like Jonathan HATE the guitar in the monitor. I’ve also never used in ears. There’s something about the amp on stage that is way to natural for me.

The amp needs to be loud enough to reach the threshold of compression with your pick attack. "Edge of breakup" people call it. This is very dependent on the amp's design as well. The good news is that there are a multitude of load boxes and cabinet sims out there to get the amp in the zone within a safe level. I for one appreciate my ox box despite its clear limitations.

Unrelated, but best day #2 was hearing Uncle Larry say he hates transposing.

Me and my cousin the bass player, always said,he was tone deaf to lows, and I the guitarist was tone deaf to highs... I believe that was right.. and yeah I had a certain level,if it dropped below, it sounded cheesy. Peck

Very entertaining video. I left. I'm not sure if the question was answered given all the entertaining sidebars, but a must-watch regardless. 😂 That said, if you don't like to put your guitar in the monitor, how does the rest of the band hear you to know when you're done with your solo?

I've heard the amp turned all the way and work it from your guitar is a way to go

the real problem is that most players are using rented backline amps which are a gamble,mostly too bright , reasonable at best. then the sound guy and the other bandmates complain about it and you have to turn the volume down and then it sounds even worst... a lot of times the amps are too big for the venue and mostly non master volume. sound guys are intelligent people but they don't understand the principle of a non master volume amp once it sounds right you can't turn the volume down, it will sound thinner anemic and too bright if it's a fender with a bright cap. the solution is upgraded amps with nos tubes and aftermarket speakers i work for a backline company and i practice what i preach and it saves so much time in sound checks and get better results.

Who has non trashed ears in this game ? We cant really even judge accurately .....The last concert I went to, the sound man cranked the Subwoofers so loud it just beat my chest, all I could really hear was the bass drum.....I am convinced this guy must have been deaf.....

I have a friend I jam with once in while. At his his house and set up, his Carvin Belair 212 is on a 410 cab direct behind where I have to sit(I'm 69), and I swear this guy is "tone def", to him more treble good, I always have to do the cring thing, and say Jez, "can you turn that treble down some?" I use a 115 cab with a hand built Fender style Deluxe running 6L6's, more Vibroverb or Super. It drips tone. So what I hear right off the bat, is where his last settings were, and to honest it's kinda frightening. I've seen lately some pros turning their amp around to the back if it's open back. I'm heading over there today, it's been a good six months since we've played any, it can be fun sometimes, not always.

Tone is subjective, but the only answer for how loud your amp should be is YES.

Q Lazzarus-Goodbye Horses for buffalo bill's dance scene 😆

If a sound guy asked me to turn down and said he'd give it back in the monitors and I hated the way that sounded my first thought would be "Man, what does the FOH sound like?'.

loud enough to hear your self and still hear everyone else. play the room. unless you're playing to more than 300 people don't mike anything. sound men suck.

I'm finding that I can crank my 50watters and just go through my CaptorX with a cab sim. I haven't tried it yet, but from what I understand I can go through the front of house desk and get a pretty great, cranked amp sound through the PA and monitors at any volume the sound guy/audience wants. Or just use the attenuation feature and go through an actual cabinet. Different world than when I was clubbin' 20 years ago.

I was at a Anderson East show in Philly that was so loud I was stuffing napkins in my ears. The house speakers 🔊 where the worst and the sound guy should have been put in jail!

You know you like to have your amp on "7" or the sweet spot for the tubes to breathe now configure that with reduced tube output and maybe one or two speakers instead of four make sure you can hear everybody onstage, keep vocals clearly above the mix and watch db output and allow patrons to converse unimpeded, use Dynamics in the performance

What do you guys think of Sunn O)))?

Go to marshallforum...long time members will defend a cranked marshall stack to the death... Attenuators work well to a certain degree. Aesthetically I can't stomach having my amp tilted in front of me. At that point I would use a distortion pedal and/or attenuator with the amp facing the audience like normal. Also, I will never go near a modeling amp, tubes or nothing.

Louder then The God of Thunder ! Glad the Ramones never listened to this advice !!! With that being said I just shelved my 68 fender super reverb and now play shows with my new 10 watt Carr superbee and I still can’t get it past 3 or 4 … I hate cover band restaurant gigs so sucks .. but in Florida that’s all there is

I have a 4X10 Deville and the Dr. Watson Lion Tamer changed my life. I wanted to record with it but it was way too loud. Now I get all the breakup and tone with volume I can actually use.

I don't know when how or why guitarists got convinced that playing direct sounds better. It always sounds flat, if not inaudible most of the time. Amps and cabs win 100% of the time

Dude. Wes Borland is an awesome musician. Check out Black Light Burns and Crystal Machete. Even Big Dumb Face if you're feeling goofy. Sam and John are hella talented players too.

Q Laxarus, Goodbye Horses

So much of this depends on your drummer. My dream is to have a quiet drummer that can play dynamically, instead of a smasher and basher! I gauge my sound volume by the snare drum and the symbols. The guitar should be a little above that, add more for lead guitar solos.

And we all know when you’re setting up in an empty room it’s totally different when/hopefully,it fills up. Their bodies suck up a lot of volume.

For me, its just party and bar gigs. even back when i was 15 and jamming with a drummer friend. Try to be balanced. ha, first concert, LZ, Houses, Kezar. saw a bunch. Loudest, UFO, Paul Chapman era for Mechanix, BG Civic. Yes, Stranger sounded great then UFO started.....we were first balcony row seats straight out from the stage. Its was so loud it sounded like a gaarbled mess. It was too loud, or was it where we were....only Mystery Train's intro is worth remembering. actually asked a guy i knew who ran sound for local street fairs,,,,Is there such a thing as too loud. The answer was Yes. All i needed to know.

We’ve all played with ppl playing too loud on stage gotta be balanced

How loud should my amp be? *Yes*

Really all I want in my monitor is my vocal and the other vocalists. The bass is usually behind us so I don’t need that. I like to have steel and lead guitars in my monitor ,but I DO NOT need the Fiddoe in my monitor. They cut through everything.

I run a JHS Little Black Amp Box in the effects loop that acts as a passive attenuator. Then I can cook the tubes at controllable volumes.

If you think the tubes might burst then your at the right level of volume

DB max 82 . Spectrum Analyzer max 1 KHz. Drums behind plexiglass.

Vertex Boost is your tonal friend when set correctly before the amp

To the side…now saying this I went to Fractal about 6 months ago..I use a mission engineering Gemini 2 cab and I like what I hear🤷…I’ve had tubes my whole life so that’s a lot for me to say….but I did change the grill cloth to Marshall and put the plastic logo on it too🤣..I guess you can take the amp out of the player…but……..

tilt your amp back so it's not pointing at some sad sack in the front row and balance the band based off the drums (the only instrument with no volume knob). okay let's see what the vid says...