Riker didn't really kill the Pulaski clone without asking her. He gave her a "shall I?" look and she nodded yes.

SFDebris’ treatment of this episode is pure gold. He absolutely burns it to the ground.

One may argue that Riker was justifiably outraged when his "sample" was removed without his permission. However, once this has occurred, and the clone is a separate entity (and here's the important part) and _exists outside_ of Riker's body, one has to wonder just how far Riker's rights extend. After all, I seem to recall that (in a DS9 episode) Odo said something like, "it's still murder even if it's your own clone".

It WAS NOT a top 10 episode, but this was the first time TNG mentioned World War III and its aftermath outside of the pilot Farpoint episode. Thus this episode provided much of the backstory for the First Contact movie which was the biggest and best TNG movie hands down and then the Enterprise prequal later on.

This is one of the episodes that helped seal something in my head cannon about Earth culture. Earth went through a nuclear dark age, plus the oppressive eugenics war and then became influenced by actual aliens. I think this cause a movement of people who wanted to 're-gain' those lost cultures. So they looked them up in the scant few historical records that survived. from those records they re-learned how to 'act' like their traditional culture. Since they don't have any real examples of those cultures living, every one ends up acting like a cultural stereotype in formal social situations. So in essence in the future it is Earth culture to LARP like an extinct earth culture.

I think the actress who played Brenna did a good job and was an interesting character. I thought it was funny Worf said "She's like a Klingon woman".

lore i dont have anyone to discuss my favorite show with so these videos help me feel like i can share in this experience, thank you

Oh boy, we have a lamentation, boys.

I actually don't mind this episode. Heck, at least I remember it, which is more than I can say for a LOT of other episodes. I like the hokeyness of having the space Amish on the Enterprise.

You see, this was why Roger Wilco in the Space Quest series was so dangerous to your point, because janitorial gear can be extremely deadly in the right hands. Especially if the janitor is well trained.

The one decent thing about this episode: the always scintillating Rosalyn Landor (think "The Adventure of the Speckled Band", which actually makes her a Picard relative by marriage!).

2:46 "This episode was written by Melinda Snodgrass. Yes, THAT Melissa Snodgrass." Something about that just really hit my funny bone! I can't stop chuckling!

I knew this was going to be a lamentation. :p ordinarily I'd do my best to try and defend it at least a little bit because while I never seek out the episode I never change it over when it's on. But you are right it is awfully written garbage. I do appreciate it for just a few small moments though that I think of very warmly. The first is Picard's laughter at the situation. It was such a natural scene between him and Riker. "Good for the bloody ship" is another cos I think it's a great line and to be honest regardless of all other issues with the writing I think that actress does a great job with the material she's given. The worf and Pulaski stuff was short but again very nice. And finally Word's interactions with the Irish guy. The "you would be standing in the fire" line always makes me laugh.

The Klingon alcohol thing doesn't bother me because we have stuff like Everclear 190 (never drink it, it is poison). I imagine the Klingons just have a much higher tolerance for high-proof alcohol than we do, and in larger amounts.

Hi Lore, A number of people in this comment section have said that they don't like the idea of replicative fading, but I personally love the idea. I think it's a good way to work around something that a lot of science fiction genres may treat as an almost perfect process. Someone already noted the example but I would like to bring up the Asgard from Stargate SG-1. I think the other colonists are in the same situation as them where the Asgard could only copy the clones once the original bodies had died or degraded (although the Asgard are actually explained in that they lost their reproductive capabilities instead of only being left with a small gene pool). The Asgard Heimdall did discover an old Asgard in cryo stasis which they were hoping to use to fix their cloning techniques, but like some Star Trek writers they dropped that plot point. While rewatching this episode I completely forgotten almost everything else about this story, but the one major scene I remembered is in Sickbay when Polaski and Worf share the cup of tea. People have talked to death about Polaski's addition to the show and how it didn't work out so I know it's late in the season to say this, but when I watched this episode about ten years ago this was the point when I realized I didn't like Polaski. I didn't hate her, but this was when I realized that she didn't have that much chemistry with the other cast members. When I rewatched the scene it felt like only one side of the conversation, Worf's side, was worth investing in. Last thing, I know your feelings have probably calmed down as this Lamentation has likely been filmed about a month ago, but just to cheer you up, in the beginning of the episode when Riker and Picard are looking at the monitor for recorded space expeditions, listed two spaces under the SS Mariposa is the SS Buckaroo Bonzai with a scheduled course heading to Planet 10 in the 8th Dimension. I don't know if you like the movie, but I think it's cool to know it's there.

Even as a child I could see the obvious loophole to the replicative fading problem. I'm just glad that when I use a photocopier I don't have to print one image, then put that image on the scanner to print off another then put that one on the scanner to copy for the next and so on, it sounds like a real hassle... Of course this is not only a scifi issue that comes up in Star Trek, there are good examples in Stargate SG1 and Doctor Who as well. (uh, clumsy spoilers for SG1) - There is the Asgard in SG1 that is an entire race of clones. I lost track of the later series but I seem to recall that they had being doing this for just so damned long that the origins of the process has been lost and there _are_ no original templates to work from. I think the uncovering of an ancient Asgardian in one episode was supposed to be a big event that could have lead to their fixing their problems... but in the end I hear they just committed mass suicide and left us all their stuff. Like I said I'd stopped watching long before here. The Doctor Who example is much more amusing in the way he works around it. When Davros was re-introduced to the modern series he pulls open the flap of his PVC lab jacket thingy to reveal that _half of his chest is missing_ and you can see right to his insides. He proudly announces that he has created a new race of Daleks, each one grown from a cell of his own body. Maybe someone should have pointed out to this mad scientist that the cells in your body are supposed to grow back again, sure it can be a point of pride that they are created from your _actual_ cells instead of lab grown clone cells I suppose but A) after the first cell the rest are grown in a lab anyway and B) You don't need to leave a _gaping chest wound_ in the place of the 'donated' cells.

I was always weirded out by the fact that Worf 'quoted [Pulaski] some of that [love] poetry'. Like, is it implied that they did the dew?

"Oh right... Manhunt. A Lwaxana Troi episode." Cue the despair.

My Favorite TNG episodes • ***All Good Things: Season 7, Episode 25 (Picard time-shifts) • The Pegasus: Season 7, Episode 12 (Admiral Pressman clandestinely seeks to find a cloaking/phasing device) • ***Lessons: Season 6, Episode 19 (Picard falls in true love with Nella Daren) • Starship Mine: Season 6, Episode 18 (Picard goes Diehard) • Chain of Command: Season 6, Episodes 10 & 11 (There…are…four…lights) • A Fistful of Datas: Season 6, Episode 8 (Worf and Alexander go Wild West) • The Inner Light: Season 5, Episode 25 (Picard lives a lifetime married) • Conundrum: Season 5, Episode 14 (Riker, you dirty dog, and Ro) • Unification: Season 5; Episodes 7 & 8 (Picard, Sarek, and Spock, Nuff Said) • Darmok: Season 5, Episode 2 (Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra) • Redemption: Season 4 & 5: Episode 26 & 1 (Worf serves with Kurn in Klingon Civil War) • ***Reunion: Season 4, Episode 7 (Worst Moment in TNG: K'Ehleyr killed) • ***Sarek: Season 3, Episode 23 (Sarek can’t control his emotions) • Sins of the Father - Season 3, Episode 17 (Worf meets his brother Kurn and handles family business) • The Survivors: Season 3, Episode 3 (A married couple somehow survives the destruction of a planet) • The Emissary: Season 2, Episode 20 (Worf and K'Ehleyr) • Up the Long Ladder: Season 2, Episode 18 (Hilarious culture clash) • A Matter of Honor: Season 2, Episode 8 (Riker serves on Klingon Bird of Prey)

I will say, the Irish people and everybodies reaction to them did make me laugh. I found it a damn funny episode for the most part. But I don't and can't really analyze an episode while watching like you do. Or at least not well. When writers think 'I'm sure the audience won't question this or won't think about it', they are usually right where I am concerned. But then, that's part of why I watch these. Since you do notice these things.

Hang in there LoreRunner. Pour yourself a stiff drink if need be.

Dr. Polaski said that the colony on Mariposa had cities. That means their population was at least in the many thousands, while the Bringloid colony only had a few hundred people. After the Enterprise leaves, the Mariposans simply clone the Bringloidians and raise them up in their society and culture. They could keep the original Bringloids around as breeding stock to give them fresh genetic material for future cloning.

Slightly surprised to see that reverse-colored lamentation icon, but yes, it was pretty bad, wasn't it? I actually think that Geordi being able to lie-detect makes sense in isolation, it's the lack of follow-through that's the problem. My memory is that Pulaski consents to having her clone shot? Riker looks at her and she nods, I think. Haven't seen it for a while though. I laughed when you found out what the next episode is. Is there a worse triple-whammy in Star Trek than "Samaritan Snare" - "Up The Long Ladder" - "Manhunt"?

I love your positivity and enthusiasm Arch but I must admit.... your lamentations are a guilty pleasure of mine lol

Re:P-D Confidentiality One of the situations where it doesn't apply, or only partially applies, is in the military, or in the old-style merchant navies. I would argue it makes sense for that to be the case on Fed vessels as well. Question is, of course, if a condition can affect one's job performance there, but, given Worf's unique nature, limited knowledge of Klingon physiology (and pathology), and even more limited (to non-existent) data on klingon hybrids, it might very well be that, since Fed doesn't know which conditions could affect performance, that all conditions are to be, a priori, disclosed to the commander.

1989, I’m three years from being born

Wow...so...pretty much EVERYTHING you don't like to talk about was in this. Everything.

Absolutely, Geordi was born blind, the cloners wouldn't use him. Riker actually looks to Pulaski, who nodded, before vaporizing her clone. One more thing. Brenna does things to me... magical things.

If the ship cleans itself why is Keiko frustrated with Obrien's socks later.

27:00 On the subject of the Klingon booze versus the Human booze. That guy was trying to set up a still, that can get up to 95.7% alcohol.Granted they probably wouldn't have it that refined (it'll kill you pretty quickly) but it'd still be very strong On the cloning problem, you can't make a copy of the original. A clone grows from the sample, the sample is a part of it. The first clone has the original sample as a part of it's body

"Something really really wrong has happened if there's a fire on a starship." Open fires on space ships of any sort is a pet peeve of mine.

Riker, killing your own clone is still murder.

If only the cloners had the medical sophistication of the people who made the augments. Also on the point of these two people cultures being destroyed, I would disagree. I can see a situation where the two groups live apart from each other and setup a trade network between the them. They can trade dna, food, tech, and culture. On the point of needing to breed with people you don't like, I find this to be only about half as bad as you made it out to be. I'm thinking that the cloners can make an in vitro fertilization lab pretty easily. That doesn't fix everything but I think it would make a good middle ground option.

As I've gotten older I have wondered why the D has no real protocol for guests. Scotty had no one taking care of his needs, nor do the people in this episode. I mean, if they're taking surprise VIPS, or a large group of people on board, there should be an emergency protocol where ensigns and non-coms drop whatever they're doing and get to taking care of the new arrivals. Just a thought......

I can see why someone would hate this episode - the narrative being just stupid, first and foremost - but personally there are a few parts in it that genuinely make me laugh. Picard's "Bow to the absurd" line, Picard and Worf walking down the corridor and being suddenly confronted with a runaway chicken, and especially the scene when Worf gives the Klingon alcohol to O'Dell - "(breathlessly) Hello, my darlin'!" Love it haha

Strap in boys...this is gonna be a bumpy ride!!

The idea of the ship cleaning itself is no crazier than the idea of replicators and holodecks. Obviously the AI of the ship's computer has NO trouble whatsoever with immediately understanding the vaguest concept, and needing only the broadest possible parameters to disambiguate. You can ask for "Tea, earl grey, hot", and the computer doesn't ask what exact temperature you want, or how much sugar to put in, or how long it should have been brewed - Picard gets what he wants to drink every single time with no effort. (Granted, he might have had to do some configuring up front that we didn't see, but first-time visitors being introduced to the idea of replicators on-screen fare almost as well with explicitly no extra effort, beyond perhaps a single hilarious mishap.) Clearly, the ship can easily tell when there are spills or something, and probably doesn't even need special cleaning equipment; I could easily see it scanning the carpet, detecting bloodstains that aren't related to a nearby medical emergency, and just locking onto the blood molecules and beaming them into space, with a transporter beam so micro-scale that we don't even see it shimmering.

As far as WHY the low tech colony was able to send a signal, it has always seemed like a pretty simple thing: maybe they kept an emergency signal sending machine. They did arrive on a space ship after all.

It's a pretty bad episode, but it's kind of fun. I might not have given it Lamentation status, but it's pretty close.

Whenever an inverted colour thumbnail of yours comes up, I audibly gasp upon seeing it.

I cant believe there are no women in the room where the solution was agreed upon, or at least no women who would be expected to have these three children each. Pulaski is the only woman in the room and she's not going to be affected by it. Talk about yet another uncomfortable abortion analogy: two men in a quiet room making a decision to force women to give birth without their input or consent.

good lord. I absolutely love Lamentations! they're like a special treat!

I feel terrible for commenting on a year old episode but on the cleaning bit. They do have sonic showers in star trek which is harmless to people so I imagine the computer (that let's be fair it's quite competent when plot don't need it to fail) is probably using some sort of people safe sonic scrubber and a variation of replicator (that can dematerialize stuff) so I imagine that yes I can imagine the ship is quite capable of cleaning basic and simple dirt and mess and anything more complex stuff like dangerous things or leftovers and we know star trek does put the effort to imply the computer does have strict but override able security protocols

Not sure if many of you are familiar, but there was a movie made in the 1950's starring John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara called "The Quiet Man". If you watch that movie, I believe you'll see the characters in "Up the Long Ladder" are nearly one to one parodies/rip offs of the characters in the movie. Marriage into wealth is a part of the plot in Quiet Man also, so I can't vouch for if that is a stereotype or that was the kind of thing that actually happened in 1920s Ireland. Director John Ford was a first gen Irish immigrant so, I imagine he would know more than most. This movie also has the distinction of having one of the longest and unrealistic fight scenes of the time That being stated, I get that Maurice Hurley is very proud of his Irish heritage, but judging the evidence, I cant help but think his pride is based almost entirely off what he saw in this movie. Kind of like Calvin Candie in Django Unchained. He loved France, but didn't actually understand French. Hurley has the same thing going with Ireland. And Melissa Snodgrass turned it into a script

Sorry to double up, but this episode was actually typical of both TOS and early TNG: Kirk was the master, but we see the TNG crew do it here: *forcing Federation norms on people, whether they want it and are prepared for it or not.* At least these two colonies probably survived these "ministrations", losing only their culture and traditions. I think that Vaal's followers (who had no clue how to live free) and the "Spock's Brain" women (who had no clue how to live like cavemen) were probably dead in months, unless the Enterprise had a "Cerritos" like shadow coming along in its wake and cleaning up Kirk's messes.

Seems that a randomiser could be introduced to prevent copying of individuals. No one's complete DNA profile should be transmitted. Working with the sickbay computers to randomise and complete comparable DNA fragments.

1. The scene with Worf, Odell, and the replicator might have been problematic... but it was worth having just for watching Odell's eyes go crossed. 2. One other thing that was never discussed was the notion of having the hundreds of human males on the Enterprise provide "samples", to expand the gene pool. While relatively few humans would submit to being cloned, many would be willing to do something like that. Instead of 200 people worth of DNA, you could have two or three times that many. 3. Am I the only one who thinks that Mister "I am unique" Riker got a dose of poetic justice in "Second Chances"?

16:40 my head cannon on this is that the original colonists had competence with the technology of the time and were able to install the SOS device. Said device was a simple design and built to last and had a renewable power source. And it basically just has a big red button on it. A couple hundred years later their descendants have no idea how it works but they know that if they press red button it sends out an SOS.

palaski nods at him before he shoots her clone.

When I watched this episode, I started planning out my comment because that was more engaging than the actual episode. I’m typing it up prior to watching, so if you cover any of this I’ll edit it later to account for it. Let’s get to it. First: why is the federation entirely against clones? I can imagine some reasons why some people would be against it, but everyone? Now, Riker I could absolutely buy being against it. Imagine if this had foreshadowed his regret about Thomas Riker and that whole debacle? Plus: they could have done something with that; had multiple short term answers more pleasant than the long term solution. Then the Prime Minister’s arguments could have had some weight. “We’ll accept the material from your people and take our chances fixing the problem on our own.” Second: they have Replicative Failure. Okay, fair enough. That’s how cloning works if you lose the original donor. After all: cloning as primitive as this level means you use up at least one cell of the original and usually thousands with each clone. They don’t have the skill to do even that few I’ll bet, so they’re stuck with a finite number of clones to each generation. Question: why do they use Accelerated Maturation if they know they have a finite number of generations? They’re literally fast forwarding towards their death. Third: why are the extraction needles manual? They lower those things in by hand. This hyper-technology centric culture doesn’t have a robot to get the perfect grab? Fourth and very regrettably: the clone killings and abortion allegory. Riker and Polaski had their material taken and used to create a life form without their consent. They were knocked out beforehand, so this is almost 1:1 drugged and violated, just with technology. That really *really* bothered me that it was never truly addressed. I won’t say Riker was wrong to destroy the clones (even Polaski’s, since he got her nod on that). Personally: given they were artificially being grown and probably had to be “turned on” at the end, I think those things weren’t alive yet, and given that, plus the fact they were of Riker and Polaski’s cells: they were fully in their rights to destroy those things preemptively. If they’d been brought to life and could think/speak: it might have been different. In this one situation, that’s it. Fifth: this new colony becoming Denobulans would not and could not help the gene pool. They’re all still screwed in a couple dozen generations, even faster because half the pool is all of five people and the 3x3 style is going to make incest run rampant. I almost guarantee Section 31 got that signal early and waited for the right moment to heave them onto a Starfleet ship so they could quietly destroy a colony for their own use. Like Polaski said: 50 years and a new M-class planet with cities already there.

In your scenario, I would not rob someone to survive, the ends never justify the means. The people who stole Rikers DNA are in the wrong, as they committed theft and Riker is in the wrong for murdering two clones. Riker's crime is vastly worse.

I guess one of the biggest differences between a lamentation & just bad, is a lamentation has to in someway enrage you.... personally, I believe the whole thing about not having any contact was a lie... just the other ships original crew did not fare so well... in this case, I believe that the chance to enslave the other colony (which is what effectively happened) seemed the greater bounty of the two....

Summary: The Enterprise discovers two threatened colonies which must cooperate to survive. (it's the episode with the space-Irish. Because I like the lady, I can't objectively state an opinion )

So I’m watching these after seeing you on LoreReloaded’s ST D&D (missed its actual name) and wasn't really planning on commenting on anything until I caught up but thought I would leave this here. In relation to “can they steal to survive” a kind of real life example I thought of is that an Italian court ruled "right to survival prevails over property" in a case in where a homeless man stole a small amount of food to stave off starvation.

When Riker objected to his DNA being taken for the cloning purposes, both Picard and Pulaski shook their head at the prime minister's offer/plea and then Picard said that the prime minister would find this attitude to be prevalent among the crew. So it actually wasn't "just asking one Riker and then it was immediately shot down".

If this is a lamentation, (and it doesn't surprise me that it is), I can't wait for your opinions of Shades of Gray. What comes below lamentation status???

Regarding the "how far is this colony" conundrum you have... well, technically... in real life... sigh, you could probably find a million stars in 1000 cubic light years around Terra... They might not need to be that far away to get lost, the galaxy having around a 100 billion stars and all that.

I've always frowned on the idea that cloning means exactly copying people. One's being consist of a lot more than just one's DNA. A massive part of a person's personality is formed by one's upbringing and environment and this is unique for everybody. Unless this is done in an extremely controlled environment, is impossible for two people to have the same experience even if they had the same genetic disposition to certain things. Therefore, everybody will turn out unique even if they might look very much alike. In the case of this episode, even in the most extreme case where those children would all be raised exactly alike, none would lead the life William Riker had and so it would would not diminish Riker's uniqueness. Heck, in the case of Riker, he WAS made a copy of as an adult and he and his copy have had, for all intends and purpose, had the very same upbringing and experiences up until the copying happened. You can't tell me that William and Thomas Riker aren't unique individuals.

I hope this doesn't say something awful about me but i sorta liked this episode; the abortion angle was god awful but the interactions between the Tinkers and the Enterprise (particularly Brenna) i liked -shrug- hopefully i'm not a racist.

This one... yeah this one...

I kind of assumed each series would get only one Lamentation. I mean I heard this episode was bad, I saw SFDebris review so I knew what to expect, but this is still a surprise.

Oh dear God... I forgot about this one.

the half a light year thing bugged me always. I cant really think of any stars that are that close to each other in real life. So did the ship drop off the non-techs and then sputter along to the clone-world? Are they in a binary system? .5 LY is not that far, the low-techs would have seen the other sun in the daytime on their planet I imagine. If the stellar flares are strong enough to kill the non-techs in hours, and the clone-world is .5 LY away, wouldnt the flare effect the clone people too?

The whole episode just seemed like a caricature. Sums it up for me. The ship cleaning its self doesn't bother me at all. I mean, we accept that we've both discovered subspace, created warp drives, successfully time traveled on purpose multiple times in multiple ways. The implication of Earth, and the Federation is that if the resources are available to develop useful technology to do things better, they will. The Federation probably has as good cleaning technology is physically possible at the time. Science and well being are central to the Federation mentality. I really wish they'd had done more with the Geordi human lie detector thing to replace Troi's "I'm getting a weird feeling" squishy stuff. I mean, it'd make sense that his visor could see that level of detail, and he learning to read the information. We can do it now if we have the right camera and software.

First off, anyone else get the feeling that this episode felt like a drunk/hangover type episode? To explain, it feels like you're having a few gulps of (for example's sake) beer or whatever low alcoholic beverage you reach for usually. As the episode drags on the alcohol fog sets in and right about when Picard laughs in the cargo bay is where the passing out starts and the dream sequence begins. By the end of the episode, you're awake and you want to be shot (figuratively) and the credits roll. That's just my general feeling. Second, unless Riker was a history major at the academy, I think that it's almost impossible to have anyone but Data to hear something archaic like a centuries old distress call and in seconds go "Got it." Now, on the other hand, I will give credit where it's due on maybe the Mariposa Colony Manifest possibly surviving. Heck, a copy of the Declaration of Independence was found in a desk drawer. It could have really just been lost in the bureaucratic shuffle. But, to simply say that the Bringloid Colony could have just one piece of tech, which they hate mind you, and it's a distress signal? It's crazy! Last, on the cloning subject, I think that Snodgrass or whoever wrote 'B plot' just threw something together to tie it all up in a sloppy bow and hoped nobody would notice. Now I admit that cloning to add to a population is good if you don't focus on making the whole colony like that, and I admit that cloning could be the next step of the abortion debate (don't get me started on that subject) but...they're on a ship of over a thousand people? No one would at least be interested? As a side not, notice we haven't heard from the Bringloid or the Mariposa Colony since? Also, to answer your one question as an extra, I'd think it would be terrible to steal to survive but if it's a choice between breaking a moral principal or starving to death or between morals and saving my friends or family? I will not hesitate. Will I feel like crap? Yes. But someone I care about will live. End of story. Next time, Manhunt...yay. Anyone else want a stiff drink? Maybe what Worf ordered for Daniel O'Dell? 😑

I quit this one pretty early on.. glad I did

Maybe the ship uses the transporter to beam away dust and put dishes back into the replicator to clean itself Or maybe a Sonic Robo Vac, because sci-fi likes Sonic equipment (shower - screwdrivers)

I love Rajtajino myself. Ms Brena O'Dell is understandable and if you thing her personality is off strong fierce I would intrude my Mrs.

@3:34 Maurice Hurley- IS THERE NO END TO THIS MAN'S CRIMES?

Put myself on the 22nd of May 1989?! But-but... I had just been born on the 11th of the same month and year o.o

Belitza Snobgrass U done it again.

Yes, it wasn't a good episode. Bonkers logic and science. But, it had some interesting elements - always loved the lost space colony trope. (Here, the paperwork just got lost, as I recall.) The implications of chaos on Earth before the Federation was founded or the Romulan War was cool, too.

Cloneland or Clicheland? Well, Cloneland has the advantage of all the tech to keep you clean, safe, secure and comfortable. But then, Clicheland has the advantage of seeming to know how to kick back and party. Couldn't we have.... .... the Best of Both Worlds! [puts on shades] YEEEEAAAAAAAAHH!!!!! Thank you, I'll be here all night.

The culture of the clones here and the race from first season where the children were kidnapped are quite similar in that they don't mind if their genetic heritage is passed down, so long as anyone raised in their culture will be considered one of them to continue the civilization. Interesting? Coincidence? or unimaginative?

Is doctor patient confidentiality a thing in a military organisation?

Thank you, thank you for bringing up the “Xerox problem” I always wondered about that with this episode, and clone stories in general. Why are they copying copies and not using the original material? Surely when this cloning things started they had their entire bodies worth of cells to copy, but they didn’t foresee this replicating fading issue?

Just one nitpick (or is it an analytical plot hole?). Riker _did_ ask Pulaski's permission before destroying her clone. They looked in the pod, opened it, he turned to her, she gave him the nod, then he destroyed it. It was not verbal permission but it was pretty clear all the same. I agree with pretty much everything else you said though I did not realise that it would reach lamentation staus. I just felt it was another typically bad episode, but having the 'dungball' so clearly explained I can't really disagree. I was confused by the clone colony concept and I too feel that its culture needed 'some' kind of explanation. The writer(s) did not seem to think about just what a clone colony would really involve. So this colony decided that the only way to survive was to construct *fully adult* clones of their five remaining crew as perfect carbon copies? They don't mix any of the DNA around at all? Granted they can't just mix them around willy nilly generation after generation but they can expand those 5 into a lot more variety than they started with before 'locking down' the design/spread. Why fully adult? You can still be a clone and be born normally then grow up, clone does not mean adult copy. If they are grown as adults how are their minds developed? Are they given thought and memory too? Their plan for new DNA does not seem to involve combining the fresh stock with their own damaged stock but just copying the new DNA as new templates. Riker and Pulaski apparently recognised the in-development-clones as their own selves without having to scan them so were the colonists not simply _replacing_ themselves rather than continuing themselves. It's basically the same as the earlier episode with the stolen children. A world/colony/community that is dying off due to genetic defects steals a pitifully small pool of DNA from the Enterprise to save themselves by _replacing themselves completely,_ at least this time they are the correct species. Even if they had sufficient amounts of new genetic material to actually sustain a population (which they don't by a *very* long shot) they still aren't saving _themselves._ As for the question of R&P destroying their own clones that comes back to the question of - Are newly grown clones given memories to work with or not? When they are finished growing physically do they have any kind of minds yet? Most of the issues of whether regular abortion is ethical or not may be similar to this situation but still not the same. How 'alive' is a still growing clone? It's a Sci-fi question where the answer can change with whichever 'verse' it is set in. Does a clone have a soul? _When_ does it have a soul? Does Droid Effect come into it? I do find it odd that there are people who compare their destroying of clones here to the DS9 episode where Odo points out that killing your own clone is still murder as if they are a 1 to 1 comparison. In that DS9 story the murdered clone was a fully sentient, motile, aware and alive individual whereas in this episode the clones were still little more than translucent, unaware, underdeveloped meat. The comparison is far more apt to abortion than to full on homicide (though there are people who don't see the difference between those two anyway). While I'm not suggesting that the following quote has any answers in it, I did think of it when you brought up the Riker killing his clone debate - *Director Leonard Church* _"However, I cannot imagine that any court would be able to convict me no matter how low their opinion of my actions might be. You must understand one basic fact for all this to make sense, my dear Chairman: These AI, they all come from somewhere. They are all based on a person. Our ALPHA was no exception. And while the law has many penalties for the atrocities we inflict on others, there are no punishments for the terrors that we inflict on ourselves."_ PS. Loved the bit where you said that clones and triplets have a lot of work in Hollywood, it explains so much...

I was going to ask why Cmdr. Riker didn't murder Thomas Riker, but you mentioned it. Would a transporter accident that creates a double of you allow you to murder it? In Kirk's case he was split in half and had to be rejoined in order to live.

Full name Brenna O’Dell McWhisky Shamrock.

It does seem strange that episode to episode, there’s no consistency as far as where the ship is or where it’s going. I’ve never been able to track where they are anyway. Maybe I’m wrong.

Great lamentation! I'm part Irish too. Part lots of things. Stereotypes are used for audiences to latch onto, since trying to fill them in on anything of depth on top of what the 45 minute script wants to do seems impossible and to this day. Imagine "The Big Bamg Theory" if it didn't rely on geek and nerd stereotypes, before it became a "Friends" clone (and also degredated in story quality too!)

Heh...Riker already has a clone.

Here we go...

I don't know of any historical evidence that a culture ever devolved technologically out of a choice or believe. There are people like that in our society, but I believe it will always be just a few outliners. I could see how in a connected world all of those people could meet up and charter a ship, but I'm pretty sure their children won't understand and start to develop technology again. It is just what we do, technology is an expression of the mind. Never liked this trope in SciFi.

Nice constant hum, by the way, just the thing to keep the killing urge at bay. Snodgrass wanted this to be a reference on the US policy on IMMIGRATION. Nothing whatsoever about refugees. Conflating the two is unethical. Those are two very different issues with VERY different policies. Genuinely don't recall if it made it into the episode but the script stated that the Bringloidi's emergency signal came from a satellite left by the Mariposa, specifically to monitor the twats below. It's also stated that the Bringloidi have been in hiding underground for some time because of the flares; it's not that the flares are getting close but everything's fine until they hit. I don't see an issue with the Enterprise getting there in the nick of time; it's irrelevant to the plot except to justify having them beam up pigs along with the others. How does a ship clean itself? Well, just because you never see 'em doesn't mean there aren't space-roombas, but also; Is there anyone in the room? No. Scan for dirt. Dirt located. Transport dirt to the base matter storage tanks. I do not understand why you would have issue with klingon tea being poisonous, but klingon tequila is just seriously alcoholic. I mean, humans do not make tea out of hemlock because hemlock is poisonous and you could well die. Cows eat hemlock just fine. So, sure, klingon tea is poisonous to humans, OK. Why that would have anything whatever to do with klingon tequila is beyond me, it's not like we think if you can down shots of tequila then you must also be able to drink hemlock tea. On the klingon tequiila itself, well, writers tend not to bother knowing anything about more or less anything. Humans can drink 100% pure alcohol without dying. It's not a great idea, certainly not to do it often, but you can. A shot glass full of it will probably make you throw up straight away, but sure, a hardened Irish drinker probably wouldn't have any real trouble holding down a sip or two. It is impossible for a liquid to have more alcohol in it that 100%, so no matter how much the writers want to push 'hyper-alcohol' klingon stuff cannot be all that bad.

Soooo....the enterprise just whored a bunch of women out to a quasi evil bunch of clones. And Picard is cool with this. This episode bothered me.

The thing that gets me is in this current day we have Sperm and Egg Donors as well as Sperm and Egg donation services. For a race that has advanced cloning facilities some new Sperm and Eggs would be exactly what they needed. Even if the Fedaration has eliminated infertility as a medical issue there would still be a need for Egg and Sperm donors. If the crew of the Enterprise doesn't want to give some genetic material surely they could contact a Star Base with a Sperm and Egg bank!!!

I thought you didnt use your m8ni trademark in the corner on these episodes?

Hi, there seems to bee a low humming noise on your sound.

RUH OH!!!!!

Lore, I would have to say that one’s DNA is effectively one’s biological copyright. Unless it is published and either in the public domain or for sale I would also argue that the Clone’s stole copyrighted material and Riker as the owner of that material had the absolute right to destroy the clones, even Dr. Polaski’s clone as she had made it clear she didn’t want to be cloned, either.

Not too harsh, it is that bad.

I remember this episode to me was bad. When I was a kid, if everything they show in the previews happened in the last 20-15 minutes then it was a bad episode. I remember that everything in the previews happened in the last few minutes. I felt the previews were what the focus was about. I feel differently now, but it was how I felt then. I remember not finding this episode interesting at all.

this episode was always stupid, and the Irish stereotypes do not fit at all with the sci-fi thing going on with the other planet. only two things from it I would have kept is the little bit of backstory about the European space program, and that one line where Worf asks the mother about joining security. it was the only funny part, when Worf tells her to become a security guard and she's saying about raising two boys and feeling like a security guard.

This is probably in the bottom 5 TNG episodes, with Code of Honor, Shades of Grey, The Naked Now, The Outrageous Okona.

The Worf measles was irrelevant to everything to me - it was nice, the covering up by Pulaski and the tea ceremony, fine - but it has to contribute to the main plot for it to be more than a shrug. What was the point of this? The signal, strange they couldn't work it out. The distance of these colonies from Earth, not sure how far, but I assume it has to be too far to be plausible for 22nd century technology. The Irish bunch sent out the signal surely, because they had no idea of the other clone colony's status, but then with their lack of technology how could they have sent out the beacon? That is a plot hole. They beam up the Irish - surprising that O'Brien doesn't warm up to them more, but that's Starfleet I guess. I guess Picard was right to have a laugh at this - what else could you do? It was ridiculous. I get the idea the Irish bunch are particularly amorous with the father's offer to Picard of his daughter, and not a little opportunistic, wanting to get fresh with people of means pretty quickly. The Irish daughter Brenna is incredibly beautiful - she has a hot temper, but once she calms down she gets passionate with Riker.I guess it mgith be that she finally sees he's interested in him and he's a first officer maybe? Who knows why. What is it with this show, where people engage in hippie-type sex all the time? By the end of this episode, it's three women for every man - or is that three men for every woman? They say both of these - and that's statistically a melange of sexual proliferation I can't compute. The clone colony - oh I remember these guys. What I don't get is, with five people left, why is it logical they would resort to cloning instead of lots of sex? Too small a gene pool? Well, if they did a bit of things the natural way, there would be some more variety before cloning happens, then try different combinations of natural sex, surely that would give more 'originals' before the copying happens? I didn't find that made sense. It's fair enough that no-one in the meeting wants a clone. Riker's reasoning is fine too. I believe it's reasonable to believe that at this time, 1989, cloning was a hot potato and most people would say no to it on ethical grounds. Now? I would say it's different now. Killing the clones in progress of creation is surely an ethical issue??? Throwaway line accusing RIker of murder, well that is a fair charge I think. No-one should have their right to decide to be cloned taken away by genetic theft. But once the cloning is in motion, that surely would be another problem. Jordy can lie detect - yeah, they would have to keep that in mind. Why they didn't clone Jordy - its' inexplicable. I'd get as much genetic material as possible if I were a clonite. Merging the two tribes at the end - yeah, that is convenient. See above for sexual arithmetic. I find it hard to see why the clones would stop having sex, or reach that cultural place. Does that mean they lost their libido once they were cloned? I guess some societies become sexually averse (Japanese, eg) but they must have developed a really cautious approach to propogation once hey started cloning. They never resolved Brenna and Riker - it was just sex, I guess, because she went for the clone prime minister right in front of him. I don't feel this was quite a lamentation, but yeah, it didn't do a lot for me unless its dubiousness as to the sexual aspect of the episode.

Lore, I have to tell you that until I watched your rumination on this episode I never had an issue with it. Now that I’ve seen you go over it in analysis mode I have to agree with you, it is much worse than I had realized. I guess when I had seen it in the past I didn’t really pay very close attention. Does taking notes help you remember plot points when you analyze a work, or do you just absorb information like a sponge?

just for the hell of it, FIRST! good review Lore, same as always.

"Cloning" in the 1980's, research it, and that is prob why it was, Bum, Bum, BUUUM... for this Episode... =)

Somehow what is thought of as the progressive sci fi managed to be massively racist and ridiculously anti individualism in one episode