STOP Chasing SINAD Distortion in Audio Amplifers!
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11 ай бұрынSINAD - Signal-to-noise and distortion ratio is a decimal equivalent to THD+N for specifying amplifier noise and distortion. You typically see power sweeps vs distortion graphs in terms of percent distortion but websites like @AudioScienceReview have popularized SINAD as a way of comparing amplifier distortion among the products they test. In this video, I discuss why this could lead to false conclusions on the quality of an amplifier if this metric alone is considered the most important. I show examples of how various amplifiers perform in power vs distortion testing and give anecdotal observations for equating the audibility of distortion.
Read our related editorial that dives deeper into Amplifier Distortion:
www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...
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@paulgyro 11 ай бұрын
Note in a recent video Amir talks about how SINAD isn't the end all be all but a good single indicator of quality engineering and thus good amp perform (correlation between the two not causation). My paraphrase of course. It seems Gene and Amir are largely in agreement. People who latch onto the SINAD are the problem and reason enough for you to make this video Gene. Good job.
@insurrectionindustries1706 11 ай бұрын
Great video, after having an audio precision for a few months I quickly realized how amplifiers output curves not numbers. I understand curves are much harder to compare but frequency and power and load dependence are so important and they just aren’t accounted for with a single number. Thank you for professionally handling this issue
@MrChompenstein 11 ай бұрын
It's kind of amazing how seemingly little/slow work on this topic has been. There is a recording of Jonathan Novick from Audio Precision at RMAF15 called "What The Specs Don’t Tell You… And Why," that has some good demonstrations on how our perception of different types of distortion is way more important than the level of it. That video is 7 years old at this point, and while some things have gotten better, I still feel like there is a tremendous amount of work to be done connecting the subjective experience to various measurements. Fun fact, a slightly younger Amir is in the front row and will ask some questions at the end. I have always thought that it was a great loss to not utilize some of these audio conventions as an opportunity to run scientific tests with some of the most critical listeners all in one place. I would love to take part in some blind testing, maybe let people schedule a time to stop by and be a test subject. Not only could we perhaps get some useful data but I think it would be a fun addition to the event that is different than listening to a bunch of gear I can't afford haha
@Jon-nz3dm 11 ай бұрын
I like that the guy kept it lighthearted and fun...most of these show presentations are snooze fests. He did a great job.
@robinkleinsteuber5217 11 ай бұрын
Thank you for this video. Very, very practical information and advice. As a retired engineer, I also saw that the increase in the SINAD numbers were becoming an unnecessary race upward in the otherwise superbly performed tests. It reminds me of the manufacturer slew rate (or low TIM) 'number wars' years ago. Wearing my audiophile hat, I have not noticed that some of these super-high SINAD scoring amplifiers to be genuinely preferable. Further, from psychoacoustic studies many years ago, the more complex the music material, the lower our ability to hear the distortion (masking effect). Again, thanks for your efforts and the engaging video!
@zzz2496 11 ай бұрын
Agreed on SINAD IS NOT be all end all number. There are too many other variables that need to be considered too as you mentioned in the video! Agreed on freq response, and load invariability value, and SNR too, maybe multi tone modulation distortion graph should be included also... Good video!
@SwirlingDragonMist 11 ай бұрын
Yeah I feel intermodulation distortion is quite a significant element to study, as it involves emergent frequencies in the audible range, from frequencies outside the audible range. Which may explain why the anecdotal observations of noise filters outside the span of human hearing affecting the quality of music we hear. It may not be placebo, it may be ultrasonic and infrasonic intermodulation.
@extracla55ic 11 ай бұрын
Great video, Gene. I’m a recent follower of your videos and appreciate your practical reviews and commentary. It would greatly help the audio community to understand how to navigate the factual/objective performance measurements along with the equally important subjective qualities of a given component. These must be weighed by the user. The reason I like Amir’s work and the measurement testing you and your contributors do is that it sets the baseline to weigh subjective reviews against. If I know measured performance is good (linear with negligible distortion), I can read/watch subjective reviews to find the components that may work best for me, which makes reviews like yours important and welcome. Thank you for the thorough and enjoyable work that you and your team does.
@LeeLee-fi7mx 11 ай бұрын
Kudos to ASR! They have never stated that SINAD is the be all, end all measurement. They provide SINAD measurements along with many other measurements, letting consumers know if manufacturers are publishing honest specifications.
@petexian 11 ай бұрын
I agree kudos to ASR. Thanks Audioholics help the community keep things in perspective
@MsSgent 11 ай бұрын
I like and respect Amir and expect he will agree with much of what Gene has said. That said, he does publish a "Top 20" amplifier list and rankings. Arguably the test should be more Pass/Fail or quartile rankings alone.
@larsv6144 11 ай бұрын
Tell that to the cult followers on their own ASR forum or the many other audio hifi forums that they heckle, while they glorify Sinai and other measurements.
@LeeLee-fi7mx 11 ай бұрын
@@MsSgent The list of top 20 Sinad measurements does not mean it's a listing of the top 20 recommended amplifiers. ASR also measures things like power, frequency response etc. In fact, I've seen some reviews of AVR's and amps with decent sinad numbers but were not recommended due to other measurements that were not up to spec.
@jsharp9735 11 ай бұрын
@@larsv6144 "cult followers", why make this sound so tribal and petty ? The fore front of cutting through nonsense and saving people money and exposing un-truths is a great step to making the whole industry more honest and educating consumers.
@wezzman1 11 ай бұрын
Thank you for clearing some of the BS of audio snubbery out the way. And the takeaway of "80db SINAD or higher" is very helpful for us that are trying to purchase new equipment, too many marketing mumbo jumbo is confusing us all.
@wattspeakers 11 ай бұрын
Thanks for this respectful and worthwhile video topic.
@ericharrelson2045 11 ай бұрын
This was an informative concisely delivered and easy to understand explanation.
@doublet147 11 ай бұрын
Very informative & well explained. My knowledge & experience is in audio engineering (production not reproduction). I'm learning more about this side. Videos like this are great. Keep 'em coming!
@pj1333 11 ай бұрын
Awesome points! Thanks Gene! Something that amazes me are the complaints that amps aren't tested at full rated power for all channels not understanding the limitations of our wall outlets or source content. Many feel cheated they aren't getting a full 200w at 16 channels. I also don't like how some companies just use the specs of installed modules and don't publish actual test results for their implementations. Leads to confusion and arguments for other companies that do their own testing like ATI.
@blackrifle6736 11 ай бұрын
*Gene: Thank you for this great, spot-on video. Always something new to learn from you. Cheers!*
@kyleo2113 11 ай бұрын
Thanks Gene, Would love to hear other factors in determining the quality of the amp - how does damping factor play into an amps performance and at what point is it a non-issue etc.
@garykarczewski6678 10 ай бұрын
Thank you Gene. Great knowledge and advice
@scientificaudiophile 11 ай бұрын
Thanks for this great video.
@donlarrick1242 9 ай бұрын
The Benchmark AHB2 he mentions in the video measures very well, but that's a result of some very advanced tech that John Siau has incorporated, to get the sonic fingerprint as vanishingly low as possible. I have one with the DAC3 and the system at idle is stone quiet, and I believe that is what allows it to have such detail at low and high volumes.
@xburgos1 3 ай бұрын
Always a wealth of knowledge Thanks Gene ❤
@JeyDeeSweden 11 ай бұрын
Hey there Gene, good call, you are obviously correct. 😊🤚
@mcknyc6401 11 ай бұрын
Thanks for this discussion. It’s very relevant for me since I plan to buy a new amp in the next few months. Over the last few years, I find I trust purely subjective less and less, and I have found your Audioholics reviews, along with those on ASR, Erin’s and the SoundStage reviews that include measurements, to be like breaths of fresh air. I particularly found your reply to one comment on this video to be helpful: “3 biggest metrics, load invariance, SNR, and THD+N up to the power rating, IMO.” It may be redundant (I’m no engineer), but I would also say I always look for a flat response across the audible frequency band in reviews. I do have one misgiving about ASR has nothing to do with the quality of Amir’s reviews, which are not only very thorough (measuring much more than just SINAD) but also are very succinct and consistently laid out, so they are easy to use for comparisons. My gripe is with his charts that rank equipment solely by SINAD. I think they are very unfortunate because it encourages the kind of “chasing of SINAD” you discuss, and also allows uninformed criticism of objective measurements, in general. Both seem to me to stem from similar kinds of intellectual laziness. My personal remedy is to pay attention to the reviews themselves, and ignore most reader/viewer responses.
@damo5701 11 ай бұрын
Don't have an issue with the charts, I find them useful as a quick reference guide. The problem as you say is how people use them. I find a small cohort (certainly not most and not Amir) of members at ASR to be the sinad/objective measuring equivalent of the obnoxious audiophile snob. I ignore both. ASR (& others providing objective measurements) do serve a great purpose though, as the published specs provided by many manufacturers and sales outlets of audio products are often missing, unreliable, misleading or sometimes complete fantasy. I like Erin's type of review that provides both objective measurements and subjective opinion. It is easy enough to recognise review sites & reviewers that are influenced by sponsorship, advertising dollars or self interest etc and cull them from the resources I might use. I like hearing the opinions of others, particularly those who from experience I believe have similar tastes to mine, and seeing if their opinions match up with my experience.
@Sonofholhorse 11 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@mrboat580 11 ай бұрын
We always avoided the knee distortion by buying double the headroom of our average-highest power requirements. What was/is a killer is the desire to buy just enough power/speaker to save a little money initially, which tends to effect the budget chasing crowd more than anyone else. Even today, I am underwhelmed by amps and speakers with 'just enough' power, regardless of how clean and efficient the speakers and equipment have become. Especially now with the popularity of relatively inefficient bookshelf/stand mount speakers for larger room use. In other words, it's still a safer bet to buy double the amount of headroom, for both a higher degree of low distortion performance, and equipment longevity.
@spencerl885 11 ай бұрын
NAD M23 review must be coming soon! What does it really sound like? How does it compare to other amps to your ears? Shame in this discussion after mentioning the sound signature of the Pass Labs you didn't then refer back to the NAD to explain how you felt it sound compared to the Pass Labs, did you find it much better and why?
@dougg1075 11 ай бұрын
Good stuff.
@gregkramer5588 11 ай бұрын
I am one of the guys that likes the information in DB.
@Petrakeas 11 ай бұрын
I remember leaving a comment on a past videos of yours about putting the THD of the pedestal as there or other metrics (or maybe we don't yet know all of them) that affect sound. You answered that THD is one of the important metrics. I don't know what made you rethink that, but I'm glad you made this video. Personally , I believe there are other metrics in the time domain that affect what we perceive as accurate sound.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
3 biggest metrics, load invariance, SNR, and THD+N up to the power rating, IMO.
@Petrakeas 11 ай бұрын
@@Audioholics of course. But once you have products that score well in them and still find audible differences (or even a product sounding better despite scoring worse), there must be something more than those.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
@Petrakeas agreed. I use measurements to ensure no major design issues or defects. Listening in real world ultimately decides at the end of the day.
@Patrick-xq3ln 5 ай бұрын
Thanks for giving another perspective. I’m currently building a super budget home theater/listening room and am going the very unique route of using car audio equipment. Wayyyy more features and functionality/dollar than anything you can buy even second hand., but the higher noise floor concerned me a little. All i know is most all the highly praised audiophile equipment ive seen has relatively “bad” distortion and snr ratings than anything from topping or the like.
@sals26 11 ай бұрын
Hi Gene, Good video! This and the last one on how Amps Should Be Rated leaves a lot of room for discussion and opinion but I'll throw my stinker on the pile. I go back to the days before the FTC ratings when BS and Dynamic claims were king. At that time I was personally very happy the FTC came along and attempted to get come control and honesty in amplifier ratings. In comes the AVR push and out the window went most any honestly in power ratings once again. You've done a number of videos on the ratings horseplay used in the video world. Personally, SINAD or THD+N, I'd like to see one or two solid points with which amps could be reasonably compared for TRANSPARENT power. I'd like something like (Xwpc into 8ohms, at 80 SINAD/.01 THD+N, ALL Channels Driven, 20hz-20khz ps.) Add maybe a 4ohm rating to tell us something about the power supply. No, it doesn't really say anything about dynamic capability, but those type figures always let in ways for the ad men to run fast and loose with the numbers as we've seen in AVR's in recent years. There really wasn't anything wrong with the ETC requirements except the marketing men didn't like them, little to no room for snake-oil claims. JMHO and KEEP POSTING Videos. ;) Sal1950
@petertreyde3212 11 ай бұрын
Pretty sure ASR never said that the amp with the best SINAD sounds the best. Correct me if I am wrong. What I recall is this is an indication of how well engineeerd the product is. Indeed many of the differences between the measurements fall below the threshold of human hearing. But fair comment if anyone is silly enough to use one figure as the determining metric for their purchase decision.
@alipazooki9297 11 ай бұрын
Thank you for this educational video Gene! As someone who is continually learning about AV equipment this is important to read and analyze measurements holistically. I was wondering what are your thoughts on Buckeye amplifiers and this upcoming Class D amplifier company?
@michelcouture7026 11 ай бұрын
Nice video! How does the M23 sounds, did you review it for it’s sound?
@boardertrashtv8638 5 ай бұрын
Talking of NAD M23, I have something extremely similar from a company based in the UK. Dual mono in one box, Purifi modules, XLR’s in, WBT binding posts. Near identical specs but cost £1000 less! Check out Nord Acoustics, their Purifi Amps were out years before NADs
@petexian 11 ай бұрын
The base room sound level does make a difference. A noisy environment vs sound-isolating headphones. I'm all for standardization in measurements, is it realistic for most situations? If we use SINAD there should be an acceptable cutoff for SINAD related to the ability to realistically hear the difference.
@htenthusiast2897 11 ай бұрын
Since I added an Outlaw 5000X right after it was introduced my sound has been as rich, full, and clean as it gets in my room, no matter the volume. My Denon’s performance was ok before that, I couldn’t tell there was distortion but at higher volumes the sound got somewhat thin. The other noticeable difference happened with a well done Audyssey calibration and subwoofer fine tuning by ear. This is my real life experience without making any measurements.
@DNW2868 11 ай бұрын
Gene I would like to see you review the Coda continuum #8 amplifier.
@99PRTG 10 ай бұрын
Quality of transients and sustained complex signals are in my experience the best evaluation criteria and desirable field for further research. Multitone IMD measurements gives a good picture for start, but not for the bass range. One also needs to use a dynamiclaly complex load like real speaker driver to get the real picture as opposed to resistor. Speaker impedance plays a crucial part on amp distortion pattern, there is an old AES paper about this. The momentary impedance of the driver can get close to zero ohms due to inertial mass stored energy that it generates as time-delayed back-EDS voltage/current. Easy to see that happening when you tap on speakers bass driver while measuring its impedance in real time. I would risk guessing that SINAD measurements at 0.5 Ohms load with low output power (1-30W range) would tell us much more about amplifier qualities and differences. Another test would be a high power two-tone bass/midrange IMD tests also on low impedance load. For example, 40Hz and 2.5kHz IMD test at ratio 32:1 and watching the waveform also on osciloscope. Then change the lower frequency to 250 Hz and ratio to 8:1. It is amazing what you can observe with this technique.
@jusjash 11 ай бұрын
Amir , Gene and Erin have consistently shown and remind us of the importance of measurement. Sorry for those that cant follow the logic.
@jimbreakall9331 11 ай бұрын
Thanks Gene and also to Amir for all the testing and listening that he does. I know Amir says that the threshold for SINAD is 115 dB and that depends on how loud the peak SPL is getting. REW with a calibrate microphone on its SPL meter can measure the peak SPL. Most handheld meters are measuring a weighted SPL average. I have a feeling that you are correct that even if a very short duration peak gets clipped with the amplifier not having enough voltage to create that peak SPL, then the ear-brain probably cannot hear the very short transient distortion caused. Masking is another big key and here is a site that shows on tones that the 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th harmonics are much easier to detect with the fundamental compared to the 2nd, 3rd, etc. that are much higher usually. It all depends on the frequency too. One can tolerate higher orders of distortion at say 50 Hz than at 500 Hz or 1000 Hz, etc. www.audialonline.com/blog/sound-of-harmonic-distortion/ The worst harmonic distortion is not 2nd or 3rd but is really the higher harmonics. 7th, 8th, and 9th can be much easier to hear on tones than 2nd or 3rd because of masking. Here is a neat site and use headphones or your system and make sure your playback can play high res or you might have to scroll down to 16 bit which is still way good for this. For dynamic range, here is a good test. www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_dynamiccheck.php If you scroll around this site, you can find all kinds of neat tests. Many have reported that the ear-brain is quite sensitive to IMD and the 32 tone test that Amir uses on his AP analyzer is a good way to look at this. It sounds like an out of tune pipe organ if you listen to it, and I have never tried to see if one could tell by listening if something is better or not in a blind test with many trials of this multi-tone waveform. I have used Audacity to create various scenarios of different tones and levels and listen to these, and many times if one adjusts the tone levels to less than 0.1% distortion, nothing was discernible at normal listening levels. One's own hearing has a lot to do with it too for sure. This is a very interesting topic and clearly needs more work and results to know why some people would prefer one amplifier over another with completely different measurements, especially if the one amplifier has much higher distortion levels. If it takes listening at levels where peaks can get to 127 dB SPL like sitting close to an orchestra, then that might not be the healthiest thing to do just to say the threshold is 115 dB too. I am going to do some experiments with different types of music and just see what the peaks are getting to with an average level of say 80 dB SPL. Using a scope on the amplifier is useful too to see how high the voltage peaks are really getting on music. Thanks for this very enlightening topic. Prof. Jim - EE, Penn State University
@Cujobob 11 ай бұрын
Dr. Geddes believes that crossover distortion is the most audible type. When he was deciding on a receiver for his home setup, he purchased several AVRs and developed a way to test this. He decided on a Pioneer chipamp which actually did sound great with efficient speakers.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
Crossover distortion in amplifiers has been eliminated as a problem decades ago.
@Cujobob 11 ай бұрын
@@Audioholics I don’t believe this is accurate. There’s an ABX posted to ASR titled “Can you hear crossover distortion of >1% (listening test)” that suggests otherwise, for example.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
@@Cujobob I haven't measured significant crossover distortion in any modern amp for decades. Any reputable designer has no problem with that anymore with modern amp designs.
@michelkh87 11 ай бұрын
I'm still chasing for the Classe CT-2300 that you mentioned many times in previous videos 😉. Else two JC1s which are monstrous for sure, but their sheer size is holding me back.
@spencerl885 11 ай бұрын
I've been looking out for a Classe CA-2300 or CT-2300 myself in my country too. I spotted and pounced on a kinda similar amp, a NAD M3 and use it's amp section only and really enjoy it. Those great Class A bias Class AB hybrids from 10-15 years ago have a terrific sound and still measured very well too.
@michelkh87 11 ай бұрын
Very much agreed , and BTW myself i have very similar to your NAD M3 integrated and from the same era it is HK 990 that also has dual mono desgin configuration .
@kewlbug 11 ай бұрын
I appreciate these topics. I've actually started testing car amplifiers lately with a crude setup. There is a surprisingly small about of reliable data out there on all the equipment (besides what the mfr tells you)
@narutt.3506 3 ай бұрын
i have a benchmark system. and it sounds very very good. low noise. 😊
@thomaslutro5560 11 ай бұрын
I've been thinking about this, trying, that is. My current amps are the Purifi Eval1/Hypex SPMPS1200. Sinad is spectacular, so is load invariance, and so is the price, so is the percieved sound quality, and did I mention the price? I'm probably not going to be chasing amps at all, on any criteria, for the next few decades. Now, Speakers.
@mxmang 11 ай бұрын
And so begins the battle with ASR
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
The only battle is what you fabricate in your head.
@GS-HIFI-AUDIO 11 ай бұрын
Try actually watching the video. Gene gives clear context to the title. He isn't "calling out" Amir for SINAD testing, or any of the other measurements on ASRs website. He is simply saying don't take what you see at face value (e.g. "this amp has 150w/ch...but this one over here has 200w/ch, so it must be better!"). The measurements Amir puts on ASR are simply for transparency of performance.
@andrewskaterrr 11 ай бұрын
Clearly you didn’t watch the video. He literally brings up Amir/ASR, and how he tries to use a similar data structure so you can more easily compare to ASR.
@mxmang 11 ай бұрын
Oh you guys! I'm joshing! :) That said..i like the explanation. I wish your db / thd explanation came up before i learned how to read those ASR reviews! Thanks for all you do Gene.
@KissAnalog 11 ай бұрын
Thank you! The question is - what measurements are important?
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
Amplitude response under various load conditions, SNR, linear reasonably low distortion below the knee, ability to drive low impedance with min current limiting....
@SwirlingDragonMist 11 ай бұрын
For me, I don’t like the combination of THD and noise. For me they are separate phenomena, with separate dynamic behavior. In combining them we loose the precision of understanding each separately. All musical notes and scales are harmonic intervals, it makes sense to independently analyze the harmonics of an amplifier. Noise can come in different flavors, it may have peaks worth noting, it may have linear trends like blue noise pink noise brown noise or white noise. How this noise plays with a harmon curve may tell us something about the sonic character of the amp. Even further the way even order harmonics distort a sine wave, has different symmetry than the way odd order harmonics distort a sine wave. So we would probably want to have even more granularity on the character of the harmonics than the “Total” harmonic distortion. THD+N is not two things added together, it’s a multitude of dynamically load-variant degrees of freedom all made into a single number. The main idea being that these are all non-signal elements, so lower is better. But is lower better? When we have multiple components making up the single number, we can have more of one or the other, and one may be more desirable to have in such a ratio. 4+5=9 but so does 7+2=9. Well both are beaten by 8+0=8 but the 8 component is higher than the others 7 and 4. Likewise a 4+4 has double the value of the 2 in a 7+2 but would be ranked superior in sinad (8
@Travman83 11 ай бұрын
Thanks for the video, Gene. Do you have any theories as to why the new Marantz combo sounds subjectively cleaner than your SR-8015? So far as I can tell the 8015’s measurements should put distortion/noise in the inaudible region. Possibly more of a speaker load/linearity issue?
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
Sheer raw power may explain it. Bridged mode on my S7ts giving more dynamic headroom over the SR8015.
@dilbyjones 11 ай бұрын
Nice
@dan-qe1tb 11 ай бұрын
I agree. Non technical people who haven't been trained in physics, electrical engineering, or acoustics, might be inclined to buy misinformation and the idea that if the distortion of the product is lower, it must sound better. But, once you examine a complete system a bit further, you start to realize that what your speakers and room are doing to the signal, is far more important. Many folks also don't understand THD's audibility and the degree which the music is masking the distortion that you get. There's an Axiom study out there (from veteran Alan Lofft). An important concept is, real music isn't a sine wave! It contains fundamentals and overtones. What about what the room was doing to the music at the time it was recorded? If it was small, there may have been reflections that had been caught on mike. What about where the mikes were placed? Close miked instruments tend to sound clearer.
@seanb3303 11 ай бұрын
Gene it would be cool if you did another one of these chats discussing bridging stereo amps into mono and the pitfalls of that. It’s a great way to double amp sales but manufacturers don’t talk about the downside.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
great idea!
@seanb3303 11 ай бұрын
@@Audioholicsmight prevent another person from thinking that two Vidar’s is the solution to hard to drive Magnepans.
@matthewfrazee3352 11 ай бұрын
When Amir chased Erin off his site I lost all respect. I suspect it was out of pure jealousy since Erin has the same equipment that and can provide the exact same measurements that Amir can. Take a look at the thread on ASR right now about Erin’s top 5 speakers. Amir closed the thread because member’s were defending Erin’s video.
@seanb3303 11 ай бұрын
@@matthewfrazee3352 wow that’s salty. Truth hurts. So petty. Amir is a small man.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
@@matthewfrazee3352 That's really sad to hear. I steer clear of ASR for my own peace of mind. I know I'm not well liked there either.
@danemoreno88 11 ай бұрын
Thank you Gene finally some common sense
@poulthomsen5042 2 ай бұрын
With a young pair of ears and some high tech speakers with ie a new Elac tweeter and maybe multi amp setup - In these cases a jump in Sinad from 90db to 115db becomes very audible on high quality material. But with most available material and practically all speakers just go for power!
@Geerladenlad 11 ай бұрын
What about things like how the amplifier is voiced and the damping factor of the amplifier?
@doyleshafer 11 ай бұрын
Somebody had to say it. You are brave Gene : )
@janetyer7147 11 ай бұрын
Gene, take a look at the "Gedlee Metric" efforts of Earl Geddes's and his wife Lydia Lee at their website. It has been a long while since I last looked at the material, but as I recall they were trying to apply perceptual weightings to different orders of harmonic distortion and the frequency spectrum in which the objectively measured nonlinear distortion products occurred, based not so much on threshold of perception of the nonlinearity, but rather more on subjective weighting of of perceived degradation of the audio by those nonlinearities, based on subjective opinion among a population of individual listeners. It seemed like a good beginning, worthy of further scholarly technical efforts, but it didn't gain much traction.
@markphilpot8734 11 ай бұрын
It takes more than measurements to make an amp or other audio component sound great. The quality of the components matters also. The real is what matters to your ears. No two peoples’ hearing is alike nor is their preferences in what they listen for. Your gear and your hearing is what matters. Specs vary, but a great design will shine and we all must suit our own tastes and preferences when we make choices in gear. Like Gene showed in the video, some gear is more prone to distort based on load changes. The price is not the parameter that determines how quiet either. Your ears are your guide and your gear choice is based on your preferences. The budget will also determine what you’ll be able to get also, but it varies more. If in question, ask Gene. Can’t go wrong there.
@HomeCinemaJunkie 11 ай бұрын
Instant like!
@HaraldMacGerhard 11 ай бұрын
Thx a lot again Gene, and again.... Why would it matter to have distortion figures that is 10.000 times lower than what any speaker is capable of, is that audible? I guess there are so many other factors paying much more difference, way to go Gene.😇
@carlosmante 11 ай бұрын
SINAD, most of the Time, is only a Marketing Tool.
@Edward135i 9 ай бұрын
Gene just loves to ruffle the ASR feathers.
@allandresner 6 ай бұрын
Love my M23 🎉
@humanitech 11 ай бұрын
I guess if you can get a good measuring low distortion amp as a start point ...then we can add orher things to change, manupulate or distort the sound to suit peoples individual personal tastes! ....So I am waiting for a high power class D amp maker to then work with programmer's to create and add a full amp modelling/simulation circuit ..like in many modern guitar modelling amps and combos...imagine having an amp that you can choose and flick between say a Nad, or luxman valve, quad, accuphase, Macintosh, krell, etc, etc ...and be able ro add other boutique and different hifi amps ... that would be cool
@hdmoviesource 11 ай бұрын
Is it possible for a 100 amp to have the same sinad as a 300 watt amp? I'm not quite understanding how sinad relates to an amps power, can somebody explain?
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
SINAD is not a power rating. It's a decimal equivalent to noise + distortion.
@JC.LC. 6 ай бұрын
What about sinad for dac/preamps?
@trevorparmer5231 11 ай бұрын
Well done Gene
@RalphMoon 11 ай бұрын
Plus people have tinnitus and hearing loss at a certain age. It all becomes relative. I remember back in the day the signal to noise ratio was a really important component as you could literally hear that during quiet sequences
@bradstone2603 Ай бұрын
After 110db SNR or 0.0001% THD+N I compare more audible improvements, even if they can't really be measured, like discrete or analogue circuitry, or external power supplies.
@BenLeikin 3 ай бұрын
Alright I’m onboard with SINAD not being all there is to a good amp. Here are some genuine questions to understand this better: What are we asking amplifiers to do? Take a signal and amplify it for the speakers, no? Do we want it to alter the signal in any way? If yes, how do we want the signal from the source changed outside of dsp and eq ? If no, shouldn’t we be shooting for “a wire with gain” that we get with this newer class d like purifier or hypex? Is there a way to quantify any of this or do we just get to be subjective about all of this when it comes to hifi?
@tommorrison9724 2 ай бұрын
I’ve been reading elsewhere about the harmful impact of high order harmonic distortion. If the THD measures very low, but the amp exhibits higher order harmonic distortion spikes, would listeners find it harsh or brittle in the upper frequencies? Many of the recent amps from Fosi, Aiyima, etc exhibit this tendency.
@KirillChufarov 11 ай бұрын
All things equal, I would choose amp with superior sinad
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
The problem is that's rarely the case.
@ahlbergmagnus 6 ай бұрын
Have you ever tested the Benchmark product line? They seem to measure superb. Some find them to revealing and sterile, others love them.
@Audioholics 6 ай бұрын
Yep I've heard the same. We are in talks with them for 2024 so stay tuned....
@ahlbergmagnus 6 ай бұрын
@@Audioholics One more thing. I couldn't find the video where you where supposed to give your listening impressions of the NAD M23. Did you find it to be to revealing and sterile? Perhaps a comparison with the Benchmark AHB2 in the future?
@easternlethal 11 ай бұрын
I think the difficulty is that a lot of us have no way to audition so many available products and also no standard for what audio fidelity really is other than these measurements. So unless you hear something that really is that much better than the rest (which is less likely these days) why not just go for things like sinad etc
@cristiantolbaru7153 11 ай бұрын
Hi Gene! The 80 and above SINAD seems legit and I use more or less the same interval. You consider this for amplifiers only, or DAC also?
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
Small signal stuff like a DAC, I like to see 90dB+.
@mrwilliamwonder 11 ай бұрын
That thumbnail picture is like the ones I'd see with cops making a show of hauling off ditchweed.
@CoreRye 11 ай бұрын
Does the same apply to DACs? The Chord DAVE for example doesn't better Chords much lower priced DACs for SINAD but reviews suggest a large sound improvement.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
I was referring to amplifiers but small signal stuff like a DAC, 100dB+ is more than sufficient.
@WhatEver-dx3eu 11 ай бұрын
Nice vid. Indeed there seems to be an unhealthy focus on SINAD/THD+N. What we see today are amps with excellent SINAD but no headroom beyond the stated output. In that fashion an amp with modest output power (say, 50W) which can sustain 3dB additional power (=100W) for a short time (music transients), will sound more musical than an amplifier of same or even 50% higher power that has very little to no dynamic power. Sine waves are not music - music is dynamic by definition. Some companies did/do underscore the importance of true dynamic power, be it through using Class G topology or otherwise. These amps would sound much more powerful than the rating would suggest.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
Excellent comments and I agree 100%
@user-gy4dg4yx9b 5 ай бұрын
It would be cool to confirm the distortion audibility. SINAD may not be a correct parameter as 2nd order distortion may be partially masked or non-offending. The Pass Labs amp had high 3rd order that dominated the SINAD
@ronpi1293 2 ай бұрын
As you must know, the Pass Labs .5 series amps were replaced by the .8 at least 10 years ago. And by the reviews by TAS and Stereophile of the X350.5, there must be something wrong with your old dog. This from a class D fanboy.
@immutabledew2175 11 ай бұрын
In his reviews, Amir states that ~96db sinad is equivalent to 16 bits resolution (cd quality). That is what I look for and any higher probably won’t be noticeable. You say 80db is the benchmark? How does sinad from dac/preamp/amplifier work? Do they stack or just interfere at that low level?
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
I said 80dB is a fidelity threshold, not a benchmark. 96dB is the dynamic range of a 16bit CD. I don't think it's a good analogy to equate distortion with dynamic range.
@Nightjar726 11 ай бұрын
Amir also mocks a lot of higher res content, in that it doesn’t really offer much in audibility. Nothing wrong with a 16bit CD well engineered and recorded. I’d take it any day over a badly recorded and engineered hires format
@squared80 11 ай бұрын
I think it's just another piece of information to consider when looking to make a purchase, but mistakes are made in how much weight you put behind certain measurements. Some... really don't matter much in real world listening. Gene for the win again.
@xray111xxx 11 ай бұрын
Something to think about. When do you stop analyzing, and just not worry about it. There is a place for the specs. It is many factors. But many won't get anything as a result of paralysis through analysis. That NAD did pretty good. You could play the game that an amplifier that is 1%. Explain away that your speaker will have a higher distortion than your amplifier. For the record I never chased SINAD. SINAD wasn't even anything till recently. Some dude out there with an Audio Precision. We know who too.
@Random-kq4pz 11 ай бұрын
So the $32 dollar question, if two amps have the same output power and measure the same SINAD, will they sound the same?
@jsharp9735 11 ай бұрын
I would think so.
@wezzman1 11 ай бұрын
No, not quite. It's not just the distortion that determines the sound. It's the other internal parts like caps, resistors, design of the circuit and many more.
@scientificaudiophile 11 ай бұрын
Some amps, especially Class D, can have different frequency responses with different resistance (ohms).
@wadimek116 11 ай бұрын
@@scientificaudiophileIs it mostly dependent on damping factor or something else?
@Volumio. 11 ай бұрын
Harmonic distortion is easy to measure but just not the whole picture. Intermodulation distortion is going to sound a lot worse and needs to become a standard metric.
@sudd3660 11 ай бұрын
that is the problem with a measurement, once some people see it, they have to think it is important. hence the chase.... giving people information is confusing people, they only see the bits, not the whole picture.
@markfischer3626 11 ай бұрын
I have a lot of problems with the way audio amplifiers are measured and specified. People wan't one or two simple numbers to compare things that are very complicated. For one thing measuring amplifiers with a resistor for a load doesn't even begin to tell you how they will perform in the real world with loads that are not only reactive to different degrees at different frequencies but are not necessarily even passive loads but can have a reverse EMF especially at low frequencies. IMO this is one reason why two amplifiers that bench test nearly identically can sound different in the real world. Here's an example of a speaker whose load is an amplifier's worst nightmare. Look at figure 2. Impedance goes from -90 degrees to +45 degrees. Fortunately at least the impedance is high when it's at -90 degrees or you'd probably have a lot of blown up amplifiers. What is the frequency response at different power levels? If you knew that transient intermodulation distortion would be redundant because that would show how much the high end falls off at high power levels. But they only give it to you at one watt. Tube amplifiers have a peculiar type of distortion that I found out I'm sensitive to. It's hysteresis distortion due to the output transformer. For a sine wave the negative going wave doesn't retrace the positive going wave to to magnetic inertia in the magnetic domains. You can see this on any graph of magnetic hysteresis loops. Back about 15 to 20 years ago I was able to pick out by listening alone the one solid state amplifier at the Vacuum Tube Valley audio show in Piscataway. Even I was surprised and reminded my why in 1968 I bought my first solid state amplifier and never went back. One reason speaker loads can be so difficult is because of the extremely complex reactive crossover networks needed to make them sound "flat" without any active equalization at the low signal level which is far more preferable. Once upon a time many decades ago when I was still an audiophile I thought you couldn't have too much power. Having designed many industrial power distribution systems I learned better. I'm driving Teledyne Acoustic Research AR9 speakers with a 60 wpc Mosfet amplifier I built as a kit from Stereo Cost Cutters 30 years ago for $200 and it works great. What's the difference between a 60 watt amplifier and a 600 watt amplifier? Subjectively the 600 watt amplifier can play twice as loud without distortion at least theoretically. But here's the difference that matters most to me. The 60 watt amplifier can play as loud as I need it to without those speakers and does not have enough power to damage them. The 600 watt amplifier can smoke them. Engineering over emotion. I've got a lot of other problems with amplifier specs and audiophile equipment in general. For example given that many solid state amplifiers have an input impedance of 5k to 10k ohms why don't output stages of signal sources use low power class AB amplifiers with nearly zero source impedance instead of emitter follower or cathode follower outputs? If the source output impedance is low enough and the input impedance of the next stage, say the power amplifier is high enough then the wire impedance is irrelevant. This explains why some power amplifiers use vacuum tubes on their input stages, the input impedance can easily be 100K to 200K ohms. Given all of the awful problems with vacuum tubes you'd think they'd have all of that figured out by now.
@berkut6313 11 ай бұрын
My listening/Purchasing algorithm when looking for a dac, 2-channel amp or avr : is it on ASR recommended list ? If yes, then I listen. If not, there is low-distortion aplenty for me to !ike the next one. Why bother with lesser/poor performing gear, for they are usually a lot more expensive, carry audiophool bs in their brandname heritage and provoke listenin fatigue. Good sound comess cheap these days, SINAD/THD+n reveals a lot more about overall engineering than what it actually measures.
@brianchristopher4666 11 ай бұрын
You know every morning I wake up and... well besides that. I wake up and say "im unna stop chasing SINAD Distortion!! Lol. Pretty sure it only matters if the amp sounds great with your gear and has lots of power to do what you want. SINAD!! Really!!! ...
@pkhammu2005 11 ай бұрын
Aptly explained,biggest thing i dont like bt asr is writing of good products of Arcam,Nad avrs just based on sinad scores and followers their religiously defending it
@shinvergil 11 ай бұрын
Good to view critical thinking.
@joes3800 11 ай бұрын
Thanks for this video, Gene. But I have to play the Devil's Advocate: what prompted this video? You love measurements and I thought your and Amir's work would be more aligned rather than controversial. I get that distortion and/or SINAD don't matter to people if they like how an amplifier sounds; in other words, some people actually like how certain kinds of distortion sounds, so why would they care about measurements? So amps that have distortion are going to have mixed reviews, but I challenge you or anyone else to show me an amp that measures well - especially SINAD - that has bad reviews. I don't know of any, which is why measurements do matter. So I agree with a fair amount of what you say, Gene, but I am leaning a little more on Amir's side on this one. (Although I do agree that you don't need to chase the amps with the absolute best SINAD scores on ASR; beyond a certain threshold, all amps with different SINAD scores will likely perform the same. So maybe that's what you were saying?)
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
I've been listening to a highnoower low noise class D amp for.over a year thar sounds absolutely stellar despite its SINAD performance is in the low 80dbs. When you approach SINAD #S greater than 90dB you're fighting for differences in the 1000ths decimal place which becomes silly and can negate other important factors mentioned in the video.
@literalghost929 11 ай бұрын
Don't think anyone is 'chasing' SINAD, Amir just measures it because it's measurable and is a meter for amplifier performance. And besides, when it comes down to amplifiers, if the FR is flat and distortion is relatively low, every amp should be transparent right? The blind tests I've seen/read about sure seemed to indicate so. (failed to identify amps blind)
@xavdeman 10 ай бұрын
Meanwhile at AudioScienceReview the guy is totally obsessed with amplifier SINAD. Check out his Yamaha RX V6A review: "Even at optimal output level, SINAD is only 90 to 93 dB so way short of best AVRs at their 2 volt out." Only 90 to 93 dB SINAD.
@askmatt7283 11 ай бұрын
That dude at Audio Science Review has literally made SINAD the hill to die on 🤣
@seanb3303 11 ай бұрын
AmirNAD 😉
@Kukkema 11 ай бұрын
White towers in the background?
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
new Active RBH Sound SFTR-AX speakers. I have the prototypes, review is coming...
@Kukkema 11 ай бұрын
@@Audioholics cool. Looking forward to it
@mikegoddard7354 11 ай бұрын
I think there's a misconception with all measurements, I would like to state out the gate I am objective, and the only misconception is that people who have never owned both spectrums of audio equipment are fairly handicapped on objectivity. The reason why I say this is because even being objective I purchase a piece of equipment that was really cheap, so performance was not a factor to me. I used this amplifier for a couple months and I decided hey I really enjoy listening to this amp let me see if I can find another one on the used market for dirt cheap. During my search I found that this unit was measured with every detail that you would typically find on ASR. The unfortunate news was this amp was total crap. It's definitely in the top 10 worst ever measuring amps. This really got me scratching my head. On the opposite side of things, my main system was nearly flawless measurements wise and yes it does sound really good and I am in no way saying this horrible amp is better. The only thing I try to explain to people now is simply that from my experience of a perfect system vs a really bad one, when it comes to amplification or the amp being the bottleneck, is not as bad as you think. In turn, this has helped me to understand why some people preach about a product being so great and when it is measured it turns out to be boo boo. This is also how many of these big audio companies will sell you an amp or products which are mediocre with a high price tag and people rave about it. Lastly, this has not swayed my opinion on objectivity. This still doesn't mean you can go out there and buy whatever you want and it's going to be amazing just because it sounds good. There's definitely quality products out there at very affordable prices that can easily blow your mind. There's a lot of negativity towards Amir and the ASR community or any people who are fundamentally objective. I must say when it comes to reality you must realize all Amir is trying to do is not have you blow your money on poorly designed products with extremely high price tags. I am not sure how anyone can be mad at this. No one is trying to control you or tell you how to spend your money, do whatever makes you happy and sleep at night but with what I just said in mind your animosity towards the guy is really foolish and in turn basically want us the end user to get taken advantage of by these big companies and keep this corporate audio scheme rolling. This is exactly why you are here watching Audioholics video's in the very first place cause Gene is also objective, which I really respect, plus will tell it like it is and be more modest and give the modesty where it is due. Which Amir does not and I do not fault the guy for that because again it's not the performance but also the price tag which is definitely a major factor.
@larsv6144 11 ай бұрын
Oh oh that’s going to upset the ASR cult…. But I totally agree, listen more measure less.
@HaraldMacGerhard 11 ай бұрын
Do we care about ASR? What we care about is good music 😊
@petexian 11 ай бұрын
Let’s just learn
@Nightjar726 11 ай бұрын
Yup. They are all gonna pile on. And I’m sure someone will make a thread of this vid on ASR. Gene is level headed. They can’t be reasoned with.
@petexian 11 ай бұрын
@@Nightjar726 why do you say that. It’s not true. Amir has said similar things.
@Nightjar726 11 ай бұрын
@@petexian pardon but Amir’s measurements do not follow the scientific method. Don’t get me wrong he is quite knowledgeable. But he never posts his Audio Precision settings and PDF file. A LOT of things can be altered from small changes in settings. And if the reader is not aware of them, results can be skewed. He has also made some serious mistakes in his measurements. Look at his measurements of the benchmark DAC3. Pardon and no offense but that review was horrible. John Siau of benchmark had to come in and correct it all.
@konstantinost3185 11 ай бұрын
The thing no one likes to talk about is that Amplifier testing/measuring is done with a DUMMY LOAD which is purely resisistive and nowhere near the real life load of even a two way speaker.
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
I've tested with reactive loads as well. I really find all I need to know about an amp stress testing 8, 4 and 2 ohm loads using various types of test signals and durations.
@konstantinost3185 11 ай бұрын
@@Audioholics Never found an Amp that measures just fine with a dummy pure resistive load gone "haywire" with a reactive load?
@Audioholics 11 ай бұрын
@@konstantinost3185 Not in a long time tbh. When amps used to have high output impedance and high unity gain BW I saw some interesting things. Mostly cheap amps these days just can't handle low impedance loads and go into protection or current limiting, usually.
@SkywhiteChannel 11 ай бұрын
I lost all respect for Audio Science Review a long time ago. Amir uses the "common man" schtick against high end equipment by misleading people who don't know better that his numbers are the true test and when Chinese manufacturers game the system by producing a product that tests well but sound poor, he either doesn't know or chooses to hide his head in the sand.
@Random-kq4pz 11 ай бұрын
Here is a link to when we hear distortion. www.gedlee.com/Papers/The%20Perception%20of%20Distortion.pdf
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