Preach.

How about improving the practice mode like teaching them how to play? Instead of nerfing the overall fundamentals

Completely agree, as a casual player my self, I think devs should be focusing their efforts of better training tools and tutorials then compromising their core game. Don't lower the bar for me to come in, help me reach the bar!

"characters sell fighting games." Hell yes.

The man is out here giving presidential speeches about fighting games

I mean look at Tekken 7. It's one of the most complex fighting game engines and yet it still has a lot of appeal to everyday gamers while still having the depth for hardcore players. Many anime style fighters like Blazblue and Guilty Gear and Arcana Heart has ease of play options to go with the incredible depth for those who seek it. We can have both depth and widespread appeal.

It's not just fight game devs. All video game devs are doing this.

Look. I'm SHIT at fighting games. But if MvC2 came out again I'm buying it.

What sells fighting games is cool characters, the game mechanics is what keeps the player playing.

Characters sells fighting games. Characters more than anything. One of the first thing people look for in a fighting game is if their favorite character is back. MVC:I failed to meet sales expectations is because they thought "functions" could have their skins swapped. Soulcalibur 5 was selling crap because they got rid of and replaces fan favorite characters. How do game developers not realise that characters sell fighting games?

Getting good at a game is the best feeling ever. When I first played Monster Hunter World I didn't know what I was doing, i chose the Bow because I thought it was cool and Kulu Ya-Ku handed my ass to me I thought "this game sucks!" Nowadays I have 800 hours on it and I die once every 72 hours. It's also my favourite game

The harder the fighting game is, the more I want to invest in getting better at it. The easier it is, the more likely I'll drop it in a couple of weeks.

"Fighting games should be designed like video games." This says a lot with such few words. Mvc 2 remake, please

Fighting games needs to be moar accessible for Darksydephil and Low tier god

The number one thing that sells me on a fighting game is the characters, not the mechanics, not "accessibility", the characters. If a character is visually appealing and has a cool personality, I'm probably gonna get that game. Other than that it's art style and sound design. Also parries they're super fun.

*EXPRESSION* I'd argue that's what people like most about a fighting game. when you're hype about a mirror match (& i HATE mirrors) you know the game is designed well. when two players can play the same character however they want to, it really opens up a roster.

Well if fighting games really want to pull in more casual players, it's definitely dependant on the content, especially OFFLINE content. Too many fighting games these days are too reliant on online play, 9/10 times me and my friends always skip fighting games if they lack content, especially offline content, and usually wait till the game is dirt cheap, we especially end up waiting for a complete edition or a sale if there's a fighting game that seems to abuse dlc for more content. As for mechanics, the mechanic only need to appeal to casual players, but doesn't need to be overly simplified.

23 minutes of Max talking about Hitboxes, Mechanics and more? Sign me up!

Also what developers and people need to realize is that some fighting are not going to be for everyone. if the person doesnt feel self gratification from getting better through learning the game then there isnt a point in making it easier. One thing I notice from casual players is that they come to fighting games for the button smash experience and rarely care about learning anything about the game mechanics or combo structure.

"SCORPMAN IS FIGHTING BATMION" Dood, Maximilian - 2019.

Are you listening SEGA? Time for a new Virtua Fighter. We need it now more than ever.

I agree. I'm terrible at fighting games, but there's nothing like the satisfaction of landing a combo youve been practicing for some time.

So what you are basically saying is keep fighting games hype

"It should focus on things being fun" I honestly think that should go for every game ever made, regardless of genre.

Now that I think about it, DMC5 has more fighting game mechanics than most fighting games these days.

Preach Max! I like fighting games, but I'm a filthy casual that plays for the fun of it and the story lines. But when I do decide to actually get gud, I enjoy taking the time to practice, look up videos for references (like yours) and whatnot. Part of the journey to becoming a skilled fighter is learning the process and performing it with surgical accuracy. Button commands become like a dance of the fingers that translate to cool combos and sick comebacks on screen. I endorse fighting games not baby-stepping players because the feeling of pride at being proficient is amazing.

The thing I hear the most after ANY fighting game tournament is this one repeated line. "I can't believe he did that. That took so much skill!" Or "What a read! How did he know???" These are because it was difficult. If I can press a button and won not by reads. Not by skill. But by glue eating. That's. Bad. Design.

Imo the whole "tone down to make things accessible" is just an excuse for devs to get lazy.

Tekken 7 sees growth in players and hype every year...after FOUR years. Whatever they did at Namco is how you're supposed to make a fighting game.

The real question is why Max has a copy of Mortal Kombat vs DC on hand.

People who suck at fighting games are going to continue to suck at fighting games even after mechanics and difficulty are dumbed-down. Period. The comment about making the games easier benefits the pros more than the casual=FACT.

*Toning down fighting game mechanics to get more units is a myth* HE SAID IT! OOOOOH YEAH BOI I'VE BEEN SAYING THOSE WORDS FOR A LONG TIME!

why did you just happen to have Mortal Kombat Vs DC Universe in arms reach

PLEASE preach more on the modes part. Tekken7 specifically has the least amount for offline modes compared to the previous games

The biggest turn off for me with MCI was no XMen and the easy combo system being allowed in ranked matches.

Im still a firm believer that you can lower the skill floor of a fighting game, but have a skill ceiling as high as it was before, if not higher

"Fighting games absolutely have tears..." - Max Salty bitter tears

I think you nailed on the head why I like Soul Calibur and Tekken so much. You can easily access the game at a lower level but spending time with the game and you understand the incredible depth the game presents with it's mechanics.

"Nothing worth having comes easy" - Theodore Roosevelt.

That is how feel about Final Fantasy Dissidia, the psp version had way more options in battling your opponent instead they changed it up so its just TDM or Capture the Flag. Feelsbadman

The sf4 talk was real as hell. I hated when people in my highschool were complaining about how difficult the game was cause I KNEW they were gonna make sfv way toned down

Lets be real guys. Why did everyone buy Dragon Ball Fighterz?... Mechanics? Not me. I bought it cause it was a pretty dragon ball z 2.5d fighting game that had a ton of characters i liked. XD

skullgirls, the most underrated fighting game that should have gotten more love.

Dragonball FighterZ got me to buy it because of EVO vids where everyone was dealing FAST, INTENSE, BACK-AND-FORTH SHIT. Prior to this, I couldn't even understand what was going on in BlazBlue or Guilty Gear or Street Fighter or Tekken EVO matches. The expertise wasn't visible to me. But in Dragonball FighterZ, everything was on a surface. I could watch it, and understand why something SonicFox or GO1 did was bloody impressive. Still, I have to say that even though the looks is what made me get the game, the mechanics is what made me stay. Dragonball was so easy to pick up to do basic cool shit. To not have to think so hard to get to a mediocre level, it was fantastic. I still think I'm a far cry from getting to a competitive level, but standing where I am now, I can watch more matches and know where I'm lacking, where I'd lose because I now understand what I haven't mastered.

Thank you for this video. The whole appeal of fighting games for me is the challenge and suspense. When things become easier it becomes less exciting imo.

"This thing!" Sees MK vs DC In my head "YIKES!"

So, in short...this is more or less it yea? Content SELLS the game (for the casuals) Mechanics keep the game ALIVE (the hardcore who keep playing after the casual audience drops off)

Man i miss the golden era of gaming I just wish fighting devs would actually LISTEN to people like max to make better products

Hell look at tekken. Someone made one of the most useless characters into the best and even into the champion character. PANDA

"It should be fun. Things should be fun, you should be excited!" This is why we love you Max

In the case of Sam Sho 2019, going back to basics works and makes sense. It is hopefully a rebirth for the series, and reminding us all of why Sam Sho is great is a smart way to approach that.

As someone who sucks at doing long combo strings I love 3rd strike and yes hands down has the best sound track in fighting game history

Also... If you want new players to get into and STAY into fighting games I think the Skullgirls/Guilty Gear method is the best option... Don't nerf the mechanics, buff the tutorials! Imagine a mainstream fighting game with a super in-depth tutorial like those games have!

Is there a reason this segment is called "Max Rants," and not "Mad Max?" C'mon, who's with me...?😉

Smash Bros is the best selling fighting game series. It has like 3 spots in the top 5 best selling fighting games. Why? A few reasons. 1. People know Nintendo. Many of them have played at least some of their other games, so they recognize some characters, stages, and items. They were invested even before they played. 2. The variety. A. The characters. Not only is "everyone here" but the characters are vastly different, to keep matches fresh and interesting. How you fight Kirby is very different from how you fight Ganondorf and that is instantly recognized even by new players, Kirby is small, light, and has many jumps, and that all changes everything. B. The stages. Beyond the characters, the stages also have so many interesting things going on, things to interact with. In almost no other fighting game have I actually been interested to see what a new stage would be like, because usually they are all just background that affects nothing. C. Items and rules. There are so many interesting items adding a random element and further changing how the game is played. So many rules customizations. I've had friends who insisted that you need to play Smash Bros with no items, then I introduced them to a rule-set where you start with 10% stamina, 15 lives, and gun items spam like crazy and they said they were going to make that rule-set on their own game at home, because it feels like a completely different game. D. The modes. While Ultimate's single player mode isn't as in depth as Subspace Emissary was, the single player modes in Smash Bros have a lot of variety going for them so even someone not into competition can enjoy the game. You have spirits or trophies to collect, challenging events to try to fulfill, a video editing mode, a stage builder. There's pretty much something for everyone. 3. Low skill floor, high skill ceiling. Nintendo games are great at this. We've all known that little kid who just picks Pikachu and spams Down + B. It is flashy, and it makes them feel good when they send someone flying. It's very easy to get your character to do what you want them to do, no complicated inputs, which translates to people feeling like "hey I can learn this" It isn't hard to block in Smash Bros. But that doesn't mean there is no depth. Perfect shielding is very hard to pull off, and then can be difficult to take advantage of once you've properly executed it. Some attacks have a sweet/sour spot. Knowing that Wii Fit trainer has like 4 god damned i-frames with her up Smash is super subtle, and hard to take advantage of. Even a lot of advanced players may not even know about it if they don't play her (or against her) extensively. A game can be easy to get into, and still have depth to keep them going. A highly skilled player will ALWAYS beat a low skilled player. 4. Risk is rewarded. The game outright encourages you to jump off a cliff to secure a kill. THIS is what makes interesting come backs. You can take a risk to finish your opponent off sooner, I've seen even a few high level games where one player gets that nice bottom of the stage spike and killed their opponent at ultra low percentages... or ones where they died in the attempt. 5. Interaction. When I tried playing Marvel vs Capcom 3, nothing frustrated me more than running into good players who could land complicated combos that nearly took one of my characters out of the match. Combos in themselves aren't bad, what made it feel bad was that there was absolutely NOTHING you could do except hope they dropped it. There are some intense combos in Smash Bros Ultimate, but but true combos aren't all that long or commonplace. The reasons for this are partly because DI and teching. While being beaten to a pulp you have the ability to slightly influence where you are knocked around, which forces your opponent to make a read in order to continue their combo. There are over 5 ways to get back onto the stage, attack on, roll on, jump over, drop and re-enter, and basic climb (and then more character specific ways). So even when your opponent has you in the corner they have to anticipate your next move, make a read, try to lead your decision. While that is true in most fighting games, often they lack the level of verticality and dodging through an opponent that Smash has because they want to reward the player who backed the other into the corner. Killer Instinct's combo breaking also does this, and one of the reasons I really like it.

This is the huge problem I have with FGs in general now, I needed a rant like this. Thanks.

Core-A gaming has a variety of videos on this topic and a lot of things that branch off it. That channel in general is a great place to go for this kinda discussion and analysis. When it comes to ease of access, I continue to love KI. It’s combo system is overall simple but so fun and mind game-y that it’s so approachable. And the in game tutorials are so perfect in teaching what the advance stuff is but more importantly why you should do it. Killer Instinct really deserves more spotlight for being so fun to watch, play competitively, and play casually.

Watched this live. Max kept it all the way real with this. Beautifully explained.

As long as your game looks amazing and is intuitive to learn I'm in. I honestly LOVED GGXX for the branching story mode and the challenge missions. Making me win the fight with Chipp when I'm poisoned forces me to get better and better at the game without realizing it.

You wanna know a fighting game I like that doesn't revolve around giant combos? Vampire Savior. Yeah some characters have busted combos (Bulleta). But the game makes up for its insane movement and fast pace.

Yep, give me lots of characters, good looking stages, fantastic music, plenty of single player modes and I'm perfectly happy. Throw in a cpu vs cpu mode or tag it in another mode and that's a bonus.

When it became about winning tournaments it stopped being about the game and started being about the player.

the way to sell more to casuals is to make better single player content. just look at NRS.

I'm definitely amazed with your knowledge and science when it comes to the fighting game genre. You're definitely a pure student of the genre and still learning. Everything you said made sense in what we need as far as having versatile options and getting in depth with the basics of fighting games; characters, visual stages that can relate to that charcater, a diverse move set, and kick ass music. This is an excellent vid that had me reflecting to the details of all the fighting that I'd ever played since the early 90s.

Completely agree, doesn't matter if its divekick or guilty gear, experienced players will always beat beginners. Fighting games need more fun modes though, like coop vs bosses or adventures outside of combat to attract more players.

Developers: "We made everything easier by making it so you can do bazillion hit combos with a button press!" Expert Fighting Gamer: *beats noobs up like they're the General from Kaiser Knuckle* Noob Fighting Gamer: "How is this easier?" Other Expert: *slaughters foes like they're Parace from Arcana Heart 3.* Casual Fighting Gamer: "HOW is this easier!?"

So true! The only thing I would add is it needs to be fun to lose. Cuz when players are first getting started that’s what’s going to happen more than anything else! Anyone who’s still having fun even when getting their butt whooped is going to become a long-term player and will reach out to everyone they know to try!

my brother introduced me to third strike when i was crazy young, so i never knew about any of the techniques in the game like parrying or ex moves, and we ended up playing it for about a year until we accidentally parried a move or performed an ex move. a game being really easy to learn just gets dull once you have played it for a while, but having new skills to discover keeps the game fresh for a much longer time. its the main reason why melee is so popular still.

So far SamSho is one of the only games where I can go toe to toe with higher rank players. I've learned to be offensively defensive and I'm loving it.

"I can't do one-link combos, I'll never be good at SF4," is like "I can't dunk, I'll never be good at basketball." It's the absurd idea that you have to master every tool in order to play, successfully.

As someone who sucks at fighting games, lacks the ambition to git gud, but really loves many franchises - you are 100% right imho, good sir! Edit: Devs need to stop cutting content and reselling it to us. I really, really hate when a favourite character of mine is locked behind a paywall.

No Max, Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe sold 4 million copies because of their brutal fatalities. Remember Kano's? How did NRS get that past the ESRB and not get an AO rating?

I sucked at it, but the combo style of Street Fighter 4 combined with it's huge roster including the updates make it my favorite fighting game of all time.

Soulcalibur 6 is a great example, between all the lethal hit stuff and spacing and movement you need to keep a hold of, the game can be ROUGH to learn, but the basic buttons themselves are straightforward, Reversal Edge is a simple but risky tool that players can use to help casual players defend themselves more easily, and it has a TON of stuff for casual players! A bunch of characters, and the CHARACTER CREATOR! The Character Creator is probably the most powerful casual-drawing tool in any fighting game!

I really respect and agree with your opinion. I've been thinking about this for so long.

I agree with alot of what max pointed out. Perfect example; when mkx was doing pretty damn good with their combo set up for alot of characters before the mkxl update, I was beating ass with Jason, sub zero, scorpion ( who wasnt with scorps honestly?) and even a bit of predator. Then the update comes out , and I was shocked and very disappointed to learn that some of the best combos for my mains I learned like predators gut stab and slam pop up now took 2 bars instead of 1 and really limited my combos, or subs ice rapid stabs in his cryomancer class was now a grab instead of a combo finisher. I also noticed that nrs even went as far as dropping skarlets combo set ups in mk11 and made her slower in the final cut than what she used to be in beta and it's very frustrating to do her combos and sad to see how nrs is really affecting the game by catering to the casual (I'm 1 as well, but I'm still willing to commit to learning characters and get better in fighting games) and not the more advanced and vet players.

I can relate to this. The reason I bought Smash Ultimate and still playing today is because Inkling is in the game. Roster means a lot.

Single player content is also key to selling fighting games, you cannot release without story/arcade mode

Doing/Learning Lot's of Tekken Moves made me love tekken.. First of all Law's DSS, Mishima's EWGF's, and many others.. And applying it into combos made the game feel rewarding

The background music made this 10x more inspiring.

Max, unielst is like the poster child for not toning down mechanics for casuals. You could write a novel with descriptions of everything that game has

I’m still disappointed that they took away DP motions from MVCI and replaced it with a bunch of down down inputs. This kind of stuff can’t be happening.

I'm incompetent in fighting games and I still agree. What sells me these games are visuals, music, flashy action and characters! And especially lately story modes.

Ayyy. Max upgraded his cameras. Glad you're coming up Max. Keep at it

The way auto combos (the light versions) were handled in DBFZ pisses me off to no end even a year later. (Especially for Bardock/Vegito and now even Tohan) Even when I was a casual new to fighting games player I didn't like it and how it encouraged me to learn less and be braindead. I loved learning that with time I could do the deeper stuff like better reads, combos like Gohan leg loops, etc. As I got better (now a ssj rose rank after 1480 matches and 1058) those mechanics is what kept me hooked and keep playing/get better because it felt more satisfying.

I always thought that fighting games should continue to improve their tutorials. Teach newcomers on timing, giving fun mini games that helps practice certain mechanics. Make it easy to understand at the start but let the player to experiment afterward

Coming back to this after seeing what they are doing to GG2020 and man this is as relevant as ever.

Fantastic video Max, Thank you for posting this. A brilliantly considered argument. Keep up the amazing work. :)

Time, patience, and dedication. Making sure you stay humble, learn, learn and learn. I did this with Killer Instinct back when it first came out. I was okay at the game, but after watching a video from Max where he fought a really really good Jago, I was inspired to get better and to actually learn and understand that game. I spent hundreds of hours in training mode just learning and immersing myself in that game and trying to figure out as much as possible. Because I wanted to do cool stuff that looked awesome and felt satisfying to do. By the end of me playing that game everyday, I was much better than before and was still learning from playing online. It was the first fighting game that I took VERY seriously in terms of understanding how the game works, and as many nooks and crannies as possible. Max is right here; make a badass videogame with dope characters, stages and awesome music. Make it fun to play so anyone of any skill level can enjoy it. The game will get the praise it deserves. Don't worry about tier lists or anything of the sort. Just make a good, and fun fighting game.

Max should be the president of the fighting community.

I agree with you on a fundamental point. That point would be that, while growing up with SF2 and Mortal Kombat, the most fun I ever had was discovering how to extend a combo by one single hit in Killer Instinct. It was the thrill of discovery, shadow combos, slow combos, ultra fast combos and the intricacies of the game play that were the most fun. There are few games these days that excite me the way that old-school fighters once did. That element is missing in today's fighting games. I have yet to play it yet but I hope that Samurai Shodown fits in that niche.

I agree with you, I just started to try to get into fighting games and I'm more driven to Guilty Gear than any casual fighter :P

I think NRS is smart on really capitalizing the players who enjoy a fighting game’s mechanics, but don’t want to compete online. It’s why both Injustice and Mortal Kombat have endless replayable modes with tons of unlocks like Towers and Injustice’s equivalent (Can’t remember the name) to that.

*See Title "Max Rants"* *Cancels everything and pulls up a chair*

Melty's still my favourite fighting game cause of how fluid movement feels. You can press any button you want and make combos too. They might not be good but it's a combo.

For anyone still doubtful about the SFIV example, if you do Solar Plexus into DP with ryu, it does good damage, but you can link a crouch fierce in between. It does a little more damage, but that little more damage isn't what wins you a game. Avoiding that slow-ass solar plexus is what wins you that match. Or look at Evil Ryu's infamous 20 second-long 1 frame link combos. After the second use of bar, your hits don't do like any damage (they do but it's measurable in pixels). That doesn't win you the round. Avoiding his mixups and fireballs does. Do you see my point? 1 frame links are fun, but Hakan is still kinda viable even though all he does is link jabs and air-to-air into Ultra, but that ultra is better used as a counter move.

People buy fighting game for the character and roster size and in some cases both and to some degree the graphics . Imo ofc

Killer Instinct suffered being only Xbox/PC, both of which has a tiny player base for fighting games.

Tekken was daunting for me to get into but I really liked watching it so I sat down to learn what I had to like Korean back dashing and learning match ups online and now when I'm playing and I know match ups it feels super satisfying to win and when I rank up, even though I'm only in the green ranks, it's satisfying because it's a symbol of everything I've learned and how much farther I still have to go and I find that that is exciting. And with KOF 14 I've heard lots of good things from people about the gameplay and its got a big roster but I just couldn't get past the visuals of the game so I just never bought it were as KOF 13 I've barely played but the game looks so amazing that I wanted to play it so I bought it. And simplifying fighting games makes them boring to play so then people don't buy dlc, probably the best example of the opposite is marvel 3, game really hard to get into and learn but people kept buying it way after it came out because it was hype to watch and looked really good.