Had a conversation about the issues with submarines, and they pretty much snubbed me off and said that people like myself were just playing up the issue. Glad you're here pointing out how bad they are for the game, keep it up dude! Your content is perfect.

Submarines, carriers, super carriers, and super ships in general have pushed me away from playing anything higher than T7. Honestly I'm only playing T4-T6 lately which for me is fine. WG's goal has always been to push players to higher tiers but with the introduction of the aforementioned ships I think they're doing the exact opposite.

Submarines in WWII also had single digit top speeds when submerged

Story time: So we playing with kremlin, venezia, smalland. We clear a flank, except the Sub. The sub was a full pleb though. In full pleb fashion, he figures its smart to surface. I see my RPF switching. I hit the radar. We catch him in like 5.5km or sth. We get some hits in, he dives and probably used DCP. Immediately venezia (very fast cruiser) and smalland with enginge boost (ammong the fastest ships in the game) charge into him. He was bow into us. Surely we will kill him. Krem even gets ASW hits and causes like this oil leak kinda thing. I start deploying my depth charges with smalland, venezia deploys ASW aswell. I end up getting FKIN AIGHT hits on it. New flood included. Venezia gets 2 hits. Kremlin gets some additional hits. And the sub is gone. We never found it again before the game ended. Im not saying im a pro. But that was literally like a 40%er pulling the stupidest move possible, surfacing in front of 3 ships. Bow in. With no backup that can stop us from pushing him. He gets to live. Even though we hit him with guns and well over 10 depth charges. He gets to live. At this point its just comical. WG tries so hard to create ships that do not have any PvP interaction so that the last idiot can do stuff even if he makes every single mistake possible. That was 3 decent players in the 60% WR range catching a 40%er on like 5.5km. And it is literally impossible to convert the kill. Its comical.

When you have a player that is among the top 1% of players that says they can't figure out how to counter subs you have a problem.

I find it curious that carrier planes have infinite range, yet ASW planes have shorter range than some vessels' base secondary guns.

It's funny how submarines are supposed to be squishy and stealthy and yet somehow they feel tankier than ships like Kleber/Marceau or Elbing. It looks like WG is trying to create a fool-proof class here that doesn't get punished for making mistakes or isn't punished nearly as hard as it should be.

i remember the statements "subs will never appear in the game" they appeared "subs will never appear in random battles" here they are, wg are quickly sucking the the small bit of fun out of this game!

I was permaspotted in my scleiffen by a sub. Literally until I died.

I've noticed lately how little the depth charges do to subs.

If youu've seen one of Flamu's new vids, you'll know that if played correctly submarines are completely immune to spotting except for hydro & proxispotting but they are still able to spot themselves, and attack while simultaniously being immune to gun- and aircraft dammage

As a BB main…I have been trying to put my thoughts into why I hate subs unto words. You said it for me. I now spend the whole match running from pings and sub torps. If you try to run, because of the poor rudder time and speed you often put yourself into positions that you never would get into as part of normal strategy.

It really feels like WG has tried most of the balances for subs. Thin armor low hit points = instant deaths for the sub Thicker armor more hit points = OP spotting and major damage output Slow subs = lack of game effect Fast subs = sinking big ships early and OP spotting Maybe I’m not explaining well, just think of the ying yang and how neither side works well.

I'm glad you made this video. Here's story time Last night, I was in my Ohio as well. I am at about 70 health, but in a good, safe position and not to far up with islands between myself and the enemy team. I get into an issue with our Mino where due to both of us derping, I'm at a dead stop and every time I try to go, the Mino cuts in front of me. All in all, I'm at a stop for about a minute. Then right off my broadside, a sub is spotted 2.2 KM away from me! He lets go the heavy non-homing torps and I die. This sub was well into our territory and I had no way of knowing he was there till he was at periscope depth 2.2 KM away from me. I did everything I could, both depth charges dropped and a full broadside op AP into him. I died and he did not. WG is making me about as close to uninstalling this game as I have ever been.

Have played both sides for a bit now, and it really seems that the best counterplay is just running away. As the subs are so slow and all their damage is torpedo-based (a somewhat bad combination for chasing after enemies), you basically end up in a situation where one side stops playing the game in order to stop their opponent from playing either. And you know it's completely effed when the best way to play the game is to not actually play the game.

there is virtually no counterplay: when somehow you catch a sub with a DD - who is supposed to be the sub's nemesis - you score 8 depth charge hits, the sub comes up to the surface on half HP, you hit it with HE guns, which should absolutely wreck them, but nothing and the sub can either ram you due to how the depth charge drops work or torpedo you in the face from point-blank range... Or with airdropped charges, a single hit causes little damage, even if you see, or know where to drop them... well... still better than the super carriers

I think the only thing they are going to understand is if every game there is a sub all the other players just return go port and reload until you get a game with no subs. It's going to take a mass refusal to play until they change them.

I can't say I couldn't believe wargaming would introduce something as cancerous(maybe more) as carriers, but it still really disappointed me... Let's hope the new development team do something good about this.

Remember, they nerfed the area of the airstrike saying the air strikes would be more powerful but to a smaller drop area….I have not found that to be the case.

remember the patch where they told the charge was supposed to deal way more damage and that's why they halved the number of charge you drop xd... i find it harder to kill sub when they changed the deep charge

And herein lies the problem. Wargaming does not want there to be any real counter play against whatever their newest brightest idea is. Rework the carriers, almost immediately do away with any meaningful anti-aircraft fire until we can introduce a new ship line that specializes in anti aircraft support. But then they introduce the German and Russian carriers which have the ability to attack outside of any meaningful anti-aircraft range. With the submarines, they want to dummy down what it takes to do damage to surface ships. Homing torpedoes with the incessant ping mechanic is totally opposite on the concept of low profile low observability sneak attacks. They're basically giving submarines the best of Both Worlds. Easier damage dealing with little to no risk of their ship. They essentially are turning any and every surface ship with the exception of carriers into a pinata to be farmed by CVS and submarines

It's really the point. CVs and Subs just make the game less fun for everyone else. The complexity of the tactical situation brilliant WITHOUT those classes, with units that exist outside that it's shit. Also, I've been playing (badly) for 5 years and I think there's a lot going on. God knows how steep a learning curve WG are presenting new players.

You know what's fun? Trying to run down a sub in a destroyer and depth charge him when he just surfaces in front of you and unloads near point blank torps on you. Hell if they get close enough to a battleship they can unload on top of you and your ASW can't even hit them because of it's minimum range. Not that it would matter ASW just like AA is a joke.

They put homing torps in game so subs had a way to fight other subs. WG is so braindead they could not see how this would affect the game. Historically subs had about a 3.5km range with homing torps, so they should give subs 3.5km range in homing torps for sub vs sub. And then long range torps for surface ships unless a sub really wants to play risky and get into that 3.5km range on a surface ships. Subs should be high risk high reward, not dumbed down for the bottom of the player base. Every overpen in a sub with AP should also prevent the sub from submerging for 30secs or something as how realistic is it for a sub with actual holes in it to submerge without sinking. They won't give okhotnik depth charges because "historical realism" but these subs lol what's next flying saucers with lasers?

Subs were sent so deep into enemy territory to scout out large ships and formations, they'd also try and make an attack on a ship if undetected. They also would target damaged ships like for example USS Hornet or various cruisers and destroyers. Yeah they really don't belong in this game at all, they just don't fit historically.

Honestly you must watch Flamu vid about how broken (bugged) they are.

What I think? Subs are another nail in the coffin of this game. In fact they might be the concrete shoes that send it to the bottom. CV aircraft manufactures that are immune to counter play if played right, Gatling gun HE spammers spamming non stop for 20 minutes straight making armour irrelevant, romulin cloak smoke that act like one way mirrors, unending torp walls of skill from map end to map end and now invisible subs with undodgeable homing torps that reload faster then a Mcdonalds drive through with a 5 second ping mechanic which you can only get rid of with your damage con that has 1+ minute cooldown. Some ships have only a limited number of them then your cooked. Wargamming seem to be actively ignoring their player base and going out of their way to destroy their own game. Well congrats wargamming, you have one less player to worry about. I quit.

Id really like to see a new game mode... Surface ships only... No CV's or Subs. I'd probably start playing again if they did..

If you are interested go look at a list of WARSHIPS sunk by submarines in WWII. You'll find with few exceptions, like the Indianapolis that subs were killing cripples as they attempted to return from a battle or they were catching ships passing through restricted waters like between the barrier islands and the main islands in the Marianas. They just didn't have the speed or endurance to "chase" warships. Often they were sent out ahead of a fleet like the IJN did prior to Midway to scout. This is why they would be in the vicinity of a battle and have the opportunity to hunt cripples. They would also be tasked with sinking refueling and supply ships which would follow fleets around.

There is a not a single news for this game that makes me want to reinstall. Yesterday I discovered that the next clan battles season wi have superships. It isn't a surprise really. I bet the season after that one wi have submarines. WG is determined to kill this game.

Potato: I don't know what I'm supposed to do WG: remember, just dodge

I was in Harbin, right on top of a t6 sub, got 14 depth charge hits, still not dead....

I totally agree with your assessment about subs. I was in a battle today on Islands of Ice in a Tier X Hindenburg. Within the first 2 min of battle, as I was slowly making my way forward, I was attacked by a Tier X Balao which I could not spot at all. The sub pinged me and even after I negated the ping with my damage control, it still managed to hit me with all its torpedoes and I simply died. From full health to zero health within two min of battle commencing. I was not even able to advance far enough to be able to help anyone in my team. Our team eventually lost the battle and I came at the bottom of the results list of my team. So, your assessment that subs are worse than CVs is totally true. At least you can see the planes from a CV coming at you and be able to dodge its rockets, or bombs or torpedoes. But with subs and their homing torpedoes, you just don't stand any chance at all. Subs are just too tanky and their homing torpedoes do way too much damage. It is no fun at all when you die within the first two min of battle and not being able to do anything about it.

The damage output on the DC air strikes is on purpose. They don’t want you to outright kill the Sub with depth charge airstikes like the last round of testing, they aren’t supposed to kill it outright but force them to pull back or eat chip damage, similar to fire or flooding tick damage in a sense. Subs main point they’re supposed to be wiped with their low HP is if you force or catch them on the surface.

by this point, I wouldn't be surprised for WG to come up with somethink like DDs dropping sea mines to help with subs but ofc they'd do more damage to surface ships than subs

What i have found in recent games while playing Yamato is that we got a new "spam" button with the subs and that is the Depth Charges. I found myself trying to predict the route a sub would take the moment their radar strike me, like at the same moment, i have to switch my guns to the charges and probably miss a good shot and launch them in blind, hoping to catch some damage on them. And since the charges have at least 30 second cd, i have to keep going back and foward between 1/2 and 4 buttom so i can hope that at least one of the charges will get the sub. It's good when the team can follow up with a similar strategy but if they're fighting them for the first time... well, it's a nightmare

Don't always agree with everything he says, and hate mentioning other CC's, but Flamu has done some test with his community showing how broken Sub's are atm. They can bounce there level, go completely unspotted to everything except hydro, yea still attack and spot. There level to tank damage as well is extremely high. They can "tank" better than any T10 DD (compared to T10 subs) PQ touches on this a little bit. I have almost completely stopped playing random's at this point. Sticking to ranked. As it lets me avoid "super ships", sub's and only go up against a few CV's compared to the number in randoms.

Some DDs have almost unusable depth charges because they are almost impossible to reliably put on target. Some cruisers don't have any defense unless the sub surfaces and other have to suicide to get into position to use their ASW. So far the most reliable way I have found to deal with subs and avoiding them, until late game when their dive meter is near depleted, wait them out and then blast them as they are forced to surface. The aggressive subs aren't too bad but it's the passive ones that are beyond annoying and they're fast enough that I can't outrun and at the same time makes it very difficult to force an engagment

Best counter play: don’t press the battle button at all.

From wikipedia: Aside from decoys, British analysts developed a maneuver known as "Step-Aside" in which a ship, upon spotting a U-boat, would trick the U-boat into firing its acoustic torpedo early, and then make a hard turn to put itself out of the torpedo's detection arc, after which it could then bear down on the U-boat to attack.

You know, DDs are at great risk fighting subs. Their rediculous underwater speed typically keeps the DD to about a 10kt closure rate. That takes forever if the DD is approaching from behind. It causes DDs to approach in a straight line for the fastest closure rate making it easier for enemy warships to target and hit the DD.

Been basically screaming this since the first iteration and they were detectably worse this time even before I've seen/read what they changed!!! 1000% worse than CVs for a multitude of reasons! Near the top of my list is citing how frustrated ppl can get it the lack of direct counterplay to CVs, this is worse in a way. At least you aren't seeing the CV but can't shoot it.....waaaay more frustrating imo when you can nearly touch an enemy ship, but can't shoot it. Not to mention some ships(ie: dutch cruisers) that have NO anti-sub ANYTHING!!! So dumb

To paraphrase another AI: A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

You've got to hit a sub above the waterline otherwise shells typically just skip off the surface of the water. If they do manage to penetrate they loose their kinetic energy in just a few yards of water.

Running away doesn't work either. You just get torps up the rear.

Most of the time subs don’t bother me but in a game couple of days ago a sub was able to torp me to death and I never saw him once. He followed me almost all the way across the map. He shot like 20 torps. can’t dodge them all. If it was like this all the time I’d be pissed but it doesn’t so not too upset about it

Some fixes might include: -Homing torps doing less damage -If youre in a sub and your ping hits a different location than the first, there should be a penalty -greater range for depth charge squadrons AND no buffer zone as far as not being able to depth charge until x amount away from your ship -a separate consumable to cancel pings rather than having to use DCP just to get pinged and locked on 2 seconds later -more damage from depth charges -picking a depth for your sub and having to go to that depth rather than being able to stay at the depth where you're not detected and you can still spot -a greater detection range of than 2km for hydro

As much as I hoped for subs being added as an addition which provides a different yet still exciting and fair/balanced experience to all the Silent Hunter and UBOAT die hard people like me, I must finally say myself that this will not work in any possible way I could imagine. Concerning the last dev blogs before subs came back they were about to be "limited" in terms of diving capacity and damage dealing potential. Well, it seems I have a different understanding in terms of what limiting means... I truely believe that they went way over the top when even a passionate Sub Skipper like myself who knows every single part of a Type VIIC Boat says that they cant do it. They really dont belong into random battles neither historically nor in terms of balance. I could go on and explain a variety of ways how to somewhat balance them out but still, I dont want to go into randoms with my sub and be that one guy who is even more hated than the cv main. At the moment it is really a coin toss whether the sub who is playing against you is either a complete potato (no front against you PQ

I personally have studied a fair bit of game design, and it does make me understand why Wargaming does certain things, and why they won't make "obvious" changes. For example why Wargaming won't take away CV's ability to spot for their team. If you've ever been in a battle with no radar on your team and on top of that all of your DDs are gunboats and the other team has radar and stealthy DDs, you will know you are basically going to lose that battle from the start, your team has no real way of ever finding those stealthy DDs and they are going to win the battle on their own, with a CV around it covers for DDs being able to put out hundreds of thousands of damage from stealth every few minutes by giving your team a way to spot them. Sure the DD doesn't have fun being spotted by a CV, but the entire enemy team doesn't have fun not being able to find that DD as he just picks them off one by one. CVs do fill an important role in keeping DDs balanced. That said, subs are terrible right now. As demonstrated depth charge drops do basically no damage, the drops from most T10s deal 2600 damage, and seem to follow standard pen rules, so really you only get 1/3rd of that damage. Even if they dealt full damage it's still only 2600 damage 3 times every 25 seconds, against a target with 20k+ HP. Problem number two is the ships designed for countering Subs, those being DDs and Light Cruisers, really can't. How does a Gearing find a sub? Answer, hope it's on the surface and get within 2.3km, if it's below periscope depth, you just can't spot it. Oh well follow the oil and splashes! Well that's great in theory, but in practice those take around a second to long to appear to be of any use. You could drop depth charges from a Gearing right on an oil slick and miss completely, then see the next oil slick appear around a km or two away in the opposite direction you thought he was going. Well okay then, how about Z-52 it has hydro surely that helps! Well... no. It still has to get lucky and find the sub ether on the surface at 2.3km or with it's hydro running it can find subs in the depths at... 2km. Assured detection range. The range that you are supposed to always spot ships at anyway yet for some reason don't in subs. Keep in mind that whole time the sub is spotting Z-52 from around 6km away, and a spotted DD is a dead DD. Well okay how about light cruisers like Minotaur! Surely it stands a better chance being a bigger ship with better armaments! Nope, same problem only this time it's spotted from 9km away and is easier to kill. The issue with subs, and it's something everyone knows is there is no counter play to Subs. You can argue there is none against CVs but there is, it's just not something you actively have to do, with subs you have NOTHING you can do. I honestly feel like Wargaming know this, but also know if you could counter subs easier no one would play them, unless they made them into full on glass cannons where they deal stupid high damage but are likely to die the moment they start launching torps. An easy solution to this issue would be to go back to one of their initial ideas, make the sub visible the moment it pings, to make that a little more balanced for the sub, have ships outside of ping range only see the icon on the mini-map if it's under periscope distance. Not like you can do anything about a sub that far away anyway unless it's on the surface, then it should be spotted by ships outside of ping range. That would allow for counter-play, and would encourage more risky play from subs, where they would have to wait to ping or risk dieing before their torps reach the target. It would also open subs up to play more like British DDs that can only single fire torps. They would be taking lower risk playing like that, but likely get less reward. I would also make CV bombs and rockets able to deal splash damage to subs. You can't tell me it makes sense that Akizuki's 100mm(62lb) shell has splash radius, and Midway's AN-M66 2000lb bomb doesn't. Even Mackensen's 88mm shells have splash radius to them that shell weighs in the region of 20 lbs, and only has just under 2 pounds of explosives. Sure that would mean the British could wreck a Subs day, but they need to be able to wreck something why not make it subs?

PQ, Thank you for saying what we are ALL feeling.... Nothing like it! fun & engaging... So it finally occurred to me, either RUN away, burn or sink. Loose half (or more) health before you can struggle into effective range, or die trying in 10mins or less. Hope you enjoy the queue, I've spent more time in Queue to play, than actually playing, so that's now standard... This is now the game that I love, and don't want to play. Thought I was frustrated before, well it seems (since everyone who isn't a SuperUnicum sucks) like every battle with limited teams/subs/cv's/oddball one offs are gimmicks that finally made me quit... OR how to Love the game, HATE every moment...

I feel your pain PQ. It was just last night a sub popped up 1.8 km in front of my cruiser and released a beeline of homing torps at point blank range for a dev strike and to add insult to injury my final salvo which was also point blank did 0 damage. I was so mad I did something I don't normally do. I went to the forum to vent. lol Which is usually a bad mistake since the frequenters usually like to contradict player's concerns not because their concerns are not legit but because it's cool to be a dick on the forum.

As others have sai, subs, cvs, super ships pushing me away from the game. Had a game where a sub drove underneath me in a bb, pop up behind me. Run me down and split my head open. Fun and engaging…….

Add in the fact that you can "porpoise" the sub between 15-20 depth and you can constantly spot while having shell immunity and still able to fire your torps.....good times...fml

In retrospect - it might’ve been better if they had made them super glass cannony, with a very long reload, fitting a bit more into the niche raider/scout playstyle style… What they hit hurts, but if they get hit by anything, they’re dead

I've had the best solution for all my WG issues: stopped playing after the CV rework. Now I'm enjoying the great content you guys are making. Cheers for that!

I had 2 games back to back in the Cristoforo Columbo, both subs appeared at the same time about 1km from me. Couldn’t even get the depth charges off, they were too close. Full health to dead in about 30 seconds exclusively from subs.

Love how Ohio ASW is 6 KM and some range play cruisers like German, etc get depth charges rather than air drop.

I'm still leaning towards CVs being worse though to be honest - you can 'theoretically' outrun subs or put an island between them and yourself (yeah you'll probably be putting yourself out of position but at least it's "something") . You are right in everything you say here though - they are exceptionally poorly implemented. The only thing the community can do is to refuse to play with sub players, but you can't even team-kill any more. Still find subs less cancerous than skip bombers - that drop bombs out of AA range altogether. So now you don't even have "interaction" with the NPCs - not that AA "interaction" matters in any way shape or form anyway.

Mr Quality, Excellent video, quality upload 100%! I think you're missing a perspective, or haven't observed, on how to fight against subs. I did training room shenanigans with my clan mates the other night and our primary topic was submarine warfare. With the recent changes to subs, you can see enemy sonar pings coming in. It's a higher skill cap, but it is possible to figure it where to drop your ASW. You are aware of when an enemy sub has a ping on you, so you should start WASDing around until you see the torps. Once you spot the torps, pop your repair and reverse whatever you are WASDing at the second of spotting. For example: if you are going forward and veering right, start turning left and full reverse. The homing torp will more then likely miss. The unfortunate part about subs, is they force BB's to stay back, and keep cruisers moving. Getting close in a BB requires CONSTANT WASD maneuvering, not just AD steering. With BB's being so slow, unless you have one of the few BB's with speed boost, you're basically committing suicide. I hope this helps!

If they made these things more glass-cannony then I might be inclined as to think they’re fine. But it’s when you have the “resources” on hand to deal with these things, and they just don’t give a fuck about what you’re throwing at them, that makes it really hard to justify their OPness. Same thing with aircraft carriers and their armor, based on the consistent amount of potential damage they have.

There were acoustic torpedoes, but WG as always makes things balanced

This may just me be but I honestly have worse times dealing with subs and radar than a cv recently.

Your right, there is no pvp vs subs and that is what is so frustrating.

So I guess my thoughts on subs is now validated. I have found it very unenjoyable to play games in which a sub is present, I was in a DD and spent 2/3rds of the game trying to hunt down a sub that magically made its way into the rear inside 5mins. Ive been in numerous games where Im spotted, within a minute with no DDs anywhere near the area, and then the "invisible" boat pings and torps, pings and torps when no other ships is in detection range, remaining unspotted while surfaced at close ranges. The completely anemic ASW is only a secondary issue, the inability for these boats to be spotted even when on the surface is a major issue. DDs dont counter subs, they go about doing what they have done for ever, and even if they try, they are outspotted and slammed by every CA in range, so its really a death sentence to actively hunt for subs in DDs. Not to mention that some CAs only have depth charges and no air dropped makes them completely incapable of countering a sub. Bottom line is they need to go.

Yep. Running away is the only way to deal with submarines. Run to a tier without submarines. Or run to another game.

If WoWS ever starts a new server with the promise that there would never be subs or CVs added, I would create a new account there immediately. I'd abandon Halsey, Cunningham, Lutjens, the Ohio, the Salem, the Goliath, on and on and on, if I had to, just to play a game that's fun again.

you need 2,5 sets of waterbombs right onto it to kill the sub. You even need more Main gun shots with DD´s to kill a sub than you need to kill other DDs...despite the HP. There is a video documenting the tests.

I don't have a problem including Subs in the game, however a few changes need to happen. First, the timer for the Acoustic Homing torps needs to be extended by double. Secondly, the ability to ping a ship every 5 seconds over and over again is annoying. Lastly, using the Damage Con to stop the torps from locking on is useless since the second you use it they can lock on again if you make the mistake of using the DC before they launch the torps, more counter play is needed. If the homing torps are acoustic then shutting the engines down should break the lock as well, it doesn't currently which means they aren't really acoustic, they are more magnetic-like.

Having to use damage con to knock out the homing is just painful, especially for ships with limited charges. And if you're going to burn it, you should get a much larger window where you can't get pinged again. Like 30 seconds where you're immune to pings. Not only that, but the ping hits need to decay faster. To the point where if the sub isn't hitting you with them basically every time it loads they lose the homing lock. And diving deeper than periscope depth needs to be a consumable that you have to wait to recharge.

Ohio was the best performing BB for me before Subs. Since Subs have released, especially now, I just have so so terrible games in Ohio, to the point where I don't play it at all because it isn't fun. Better of picking Slava, Colombo or just no BB at all.

Same with depth chargers. I had two drop from a dd on the top of a subs and he still survived.

Good luck handling subs who know how to perform the dolphin technique. When they do that, they’re able to spot and attack with all the benefits of being periscope depth, while having none of the weaknesses. Shots cannot hurt you. You cannot be spotted, not even by planes, unless they use hydro or they proxi-spot you, meaning the only real way to kill them when they do that is if you drop enough depth charges on them if they make a big mistake. Good luck with that. On the bright side, at least carriers will get a nice taste of their own medicine for a while from players who do perform the dolphin technique since they will have zero counter play, and so have zero chance. But regular surface ships won’t fair too much better either really so… yeah… this is after 3+ years of testing and development guys. I learned about this from a video Flamu did. Even if you don’t like him and/or his videos, it’s still worth taking a look at it just so you know what I’m talking about if you don’t know about it.

Appreciate your commentary. Completely agree about the subs and the carriers as well. What we haven't seen yet is the submarine carrier hybrid. I fear it's coming. If WG insists on keeping subs and carriers, it would be nice if they turned FF back on. Then teams could take care of the problem from the start, lol.

I think the biggest thing is, since rental subs are available to everyone. That includes people who's never reached t8-t10, and would quene into games with subs and have no idea how to play them, not that they are very difficulty to play with. So the skill gap of sub players are so huge, I've had subs who does nothing but dives and not contribute to anything the entire game, I've had subs that legit dies to enemy's sub and did not even fight back with their own deep water torps. And then you see enemy subs who just apes your backline, and gets 3 kills. It's ridiculous and the most recent patch 11.4 did not fix any issue.

It's no coincidence that the elimination of team damage and the release of subs happened about the same time.

I think Support CV should have planes that drop Depth charges making them perfect counter for subs and add more damage to depth charges.

I had a similar experience with my Ohio in 2 matches, and have decided not to play randoms above T7 until something is done with subs. will still play ranked and maybe a bit of CO-OP which have have not done a lot of apart from naval battles. Subs dont belong in random.

IRL subs in fleet actions were used for scouting pickets, harassing enemy forces before the main engagement, and finishing off the enemy wounded ships afterwards. They were not generally involved directly in surface engagements. Of course, also in the real world, if a CV got into gun range of enemy destroyers, cruisers, or BBs, something had gone horribly wrong for the CV. So, WOWS is rather of unrealistic before we got subs. I wish WG had stuck to never bringing subs into the game as they seem almost impossible to make work without unbalancing the gam3.

we can make a saying about this "If there is a class that's more broken than CV then the game match will soon be broken as well" XD

long ago we said: WG fucking up their game one update at a time. I'm so glad I don't p(l)ay anymore. I still love the look and feel but I've stopped yearning for "the old and balanced" version of this game and just watch others now. I've said I hope WG will change "whatever" way too many times to ever believe they'll change anything anymore. All I hope for now is some day someone will make a better version. A damn shame to see game managers shitting on their community like this.

Submarines were convoy raiders, unless they were American submarines. Then they were murder anything that floats raiders (also trains, trains are on the murder list). Check out Thunder Below about the USS Barb if you want some mission impossible level shit.

The only thing we as players can do, is not play until they are removed from general game play. And in all honestly I don't see that happening.

Submarines will never be worse than Carriers. They are broken, but Carrier abilities just kills all kinds of gameplay elements, so much that they should be in their own game. Not mode, but game.

I have a few ideas on how to balance them. Depth charger should cause flooding. Flooding should cause double damage when underwater and repair should not work underwater. And spotter planes should be able to spot periscopes up to certain range, like 8km? 10km? with some commander skill?. This should give us another reason to use spotter planes.

I decided to have a go of the u-190, since their first iteration, must be my 3rd or 4th game in a sub, last time was on test server and when we had soviet subs. Twin brothers map, full yolo by my team to the eastern side leaving me and a tirpitz and omaha against; Aoba, Lazo, Myoko, Atago, Amagi and New mexico. I terrorised the lot of them, nailed the NM and Atago and literally ping spammed and torpedo spammed baiting people to blow the DCP's. It was rather boring frankly, literally sat within 8km of that lot and dived when needed. Yawn. I got neg-repped to hell and needed a shower afterwards.

The only counterplay to a sub is to turn around and full w back in to spawn.

The subs are better then some of the modern diesel subs of today. Controllable torps fast under water speed for the sub. I have struggled to match their speed let alone catch them so I could drop depth charges.

The fact you can't heal basically any of the damage either is ridiculous. I got caught out in thunderer lost 39k health and couldn't heal any of it. If you could heal like 75 percent or something it would be loads better

Good vid. You hit the nail on it’s head, the problem with sub is exactly that - you can’t do much about. “Countering” sub requires half a fleet and with some level of coordination which is hard to come by in random, even in div of 3, using 3 ships to counter 1 seems very imbalanced

The main problem with the subs is that in this game the sub is acting more like a destroyer than a sub.

Would be nice if sub battery was tied to their health, sub can only charge battery to the % health they have left

Totally agree on the time difference between ship damacon refresh time and ping rate from subs

The threat of the "Uninstall: Enmasse" is viable when the Devs go off the rails this hard. Vote with yer wallets.

Much as i hate to say it, it seems the MAIN problem with subs isnt the homing torps (annoying as they are), its that they are so fucking hard to kill (see flamu's videos for more info). The MAIN interaction with EVERY ship in the game (yes including CVs) is SHOOTING EACH OTHER. DDs get spotted, your FUCKED, Cruisers get spotted, Citadeled to death, BBs get spotted, BURNED or TORPED to death, CVs get spotted, if the enemy is smart they will throw shells at you at MAX BB range. Submarines on the other hand, most of the time CANT BE SHOT, which means you have to use Depth charges. But WG has given SUBS so much HP and having seen Flmaus videos, HAVE INSANE damage saturation. So much so you need 2 or 3 SALVOS of depth charges just to sink a submarine.

To me subs are a little less dangerous compared to torpedo bombers. Earlier today, I've managed to blind fire depth charges once on a sub based on their ping direction, and team mates spotted it twice more - scored one out of two hits on that sub. I was playing Fuso. Sub usually just nag on me until surface ships can come and finish me up, while torpedo bombers would S maneuver to flood me. So if I'm close to team mates, one sub is less of a threat than torpedo bombers. They should just increase the depth charges damage again, so a couple of hits would sunk subs. But I'm just a month old cadet, so I might've missed something.

Thank you for brining this video and opinion up. I really share your opinion that WG is overstressing the player base with a "product" that has not been thoroughly designed nor tested. In your video you're already lucky to have counter-measures vs. sub's but in case you don't know: Play a cruiser from the Dutch line e.g. the Golden Leeuw and enjoy. You only have air strikes that hit surface ships and guess what happens if a sub just dives? In case your hydro is up and running, you can see it but you can only run, run, run and hope that somebody else distracts the sub from hunting you simply down. What a mess!

With any ship (even Cv's at some point) if you make a huge mistake you are dead. Hardpush with dd, get radared? you dead Overextend and get crossfired with cruiser? dead Overextend with bbs because you want to use secondaries? you dead Try to attack an AA bubble team with planes? You lose a lot Get in the middle of the enemy team, get spotted and depth charged to death with subs? 4k HP, go max depth and disengage to safety to return in a few minutes, all of this while dropping pings and torpedoes and keeping everyone spotted.

I havent been playing long but here's what I've noticed so far: 1: People who dont play carriers dont like carriers. "Any idiot can do it", "They should be removed from the game." I've never heard from someone who likes playing CVs. Just like in game, if they make themselves visible everyone takes shots as them. 2: People who dont play submarines dont like submarines. "They should be removed from the game." Same thing, never heard from the people who like subs. 3: The only aggression in this game is YOLO. Everyone wants high alpha, hides behind islands or runs away as far as possible and takes pot shots from max range hoping for a 400km devastating strike. And here's a class that breaks that mechanic and allows a player to play aggressively and its lambasted. It's weird to see a war game with so little aggression. But it's easy to understand why... aggression generally means instant death and at best you trade your loss for one kill. 4: Want to see actual aggression? Play co-op against bots. As a new player, I played a lot of co-op to get my skills up before I went against real players and it did NOT prepare me for real player gameplay at all. It's a totally different game altogether. In my opinion, co-op is working as intended (since the game devs wrote the AI) and real players try and break that by any means necessary. Again, easy to see why and it happens in lots of games, but it's so obvious in this. 5: Its one of the most toxic player based in gaming. In fact, the title "World of..." in front of anything tells you it's a toxic player base. Consolidate every "World of..." game into one and call it World of Assholes. If you were a dev, why would you ever listen to these people? You would just assume that they were just complaining about everything that makes it so they aren't awesome at it. Even when someone has a valid opinion or idea, you've gotta weed through a million assholes to find that one valid opinion/idea and you're so burnt at that point you're like, "Fuck them. Fuck them all." I played a submarine for the first time this morning, just on a whim. It was okay. Not super fun, not too easy or too hard, just a different playstyle. You aren't invincible by any stretch and like every other class, one dumb mistake and you die. And like every other class, if your get spotted every single gun points at you. I'll play it some more and try to get good at it, but after doing cruisers and destroyers, nothing is truly "fun" yet. Challenging, sure. Fun? Not yet. Am I just bad at it? Sure! I havent been playing long, I'm only up to tier 7 right now, and I spend a lot of time working on skills and researching as much as I can (hence finding this video). I dont mind being bad, I just dont want to be stupid. I can get better with more play, but stupid mistakes get you killed immediately. TL,DR? The grass is always greener. Do you all really hate CVs and subs because they're not balanced well, or because they specifically counter the meta of taking a big BB and hiding somewhere while lobbing shells from miles away?

You can actually see the ping including the point of origin, so you can send ASW aircraft onto that point of origin. This also does suck cos it means zooming out or using spotting aricraft to try get a better birds eye view as well as wasting a little time waiting for him to send pings. But this is a good tactic on being able to blind drop your ASW with reasonable accuracy. However this visible ping mechanic is being changed I think with an upcoming patch so I don't know how that will impact this method of dropping ASW onto subs. As for now, this is a good method of dropping ASW onto unspotted subs with good results.

I see 2 options there; 1. Remove subs forever. 2. Make a random gameplay with subs allowed and one with no subs allowed.. Maybe after 10mins in the queue of the "random with subs allowed" they are going go play something else.