some ya'll got Stockholm syndrome to excuse having bad basic functionality in a genre that already isn't exactly feature rich compared to most other genres.

after a certain point haradas antics stopped being 'haha funny meme man' and became 'hyper defensive developer who wont hear any criticism of his work'

Lol, the Mike Ross clip, I totally agree with him in that point

So happy we got bigger heads in the FGC like Sajam, Maximilian and others, to put the word out and explain what the companies doesn't want most people to know, or try to trick customers with fancy wording.

Babe wake up new sajam video

It seems to me that there is a semantics gap in communication between the advocates for rollback netcode and Japanese companies like Namco. Consider the following -The GGPO implementation of rollback netcode allows for rolling back frames to account for ALL network delays (doesn't matter when the players' inputs are received). -The above implementation ensures that the gameplay feel is smooth in two key ways (among other major benefits, unrelated to gameplay feel): 1) The game never freezes to wait for players' inputs. This means that the gameplay is never interrupted, which is important in maintaining the players' concentration and immersion (flow). 2) The game never changes the set input delay frames. This ensures that after getting used to the set input delay the players never have to re-adapt during a match. -Tekken 7 undeniably has an implementation of "rollback" in their netcode. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt by multiple videos showcasing rollback artifacts that wouldn't happen if there wasn't an implementation of rollback in their netcode. -Tekken 7 undeniably has variable input delay frames. It's possible for your input frames to change during a match, which obviously means that it doesn't offer the gameplay feel benefit of 2). -It's virtually definitive that Tekken 7 has a hard limit in frames it can rollback. It's been confirmed by Harada (TK7 is 3) and by the lack of any videos showcasing major rollbacks, just minor ones of a few frames. This means that if the input delay combined with the rollback frames (let's say 3 and 3 = 6 frames * 16.66 ms/frame = ~100ms of possible lag compensation) is not enough for a network connection, the game would have to freeze until the players' inputs have been received. -The game is freezing less and has better game feel compared to pre-season 4 updates, even though the range of players you can play with has increased (I personally played with people from the NA and Middle East regions even though I'm in EU, which had never happened before the update). -It's very likely that they either improved how the input delay frames vary in order to hinder game feel less (for example, they might only allow that to happen during downtime moments such as inbetween rounds and never during the heat of the moment) OR more likely that they increased the maximum rollback frames (which would explain why we can now play with players further away than us - remember that more lag compensation means that you can play with players that have larger ping. Even one frame would add 16.66ms to the maximum lag, 33.3333 for pings since ping is back and forth). -If they did increase the maximum rollback frames, it didn't create a noticably bigger amount visual artefacts, which, among multiple other evidence, goes to show how important Namco feels Tekken 7's visuals are. My guess is that improved their animation blending algorithms for when rollbacks occur, but who knows what else they did. If the above are all true, Rip isn't necessarily wrong when saying that the netcode is as good or better than GGPO rollback FOR SHORT DISTANCE CONNECTIONS (important distinction). When the maximum rollback frames are enough to handle any kind of delay fluctuations in low ping situations, there is no need to change the input delay frames. That would mean that it functions exactly like a GGPO implementation of rollback. And on top of that, the systems Namco have created to mask rollback artefacts that have succesfully made people question whether Tekken 7 has rollback at all, make sure that any kind of possible rollback that occurs does not create distracting visual artefacts. Those artefacts in a game like Skullgirls where charactrers are drawn images and can't be interpolated between animation poses would be inevitable and it would be possible that they could affect game feel. Hence, there are situations where Tekken 7 netcode's game feel is indeed better than GGPO when you're playing someone close to you. If the abov are all true, that would also mean that GGPO advocates are asking for Tekken 7 to drop the variable input delay in favor of infinite rollback frames (no matter the visual artefacts) whereas Namco feels that visuals are more important than non-variable input delay since "proof is in the pudding, netcode is now better and people are content". It seems to me that if there is ever a chance for us to get GGPO rollback without variable input delay we need to make sure that Namco doesn't hear "GIVE US ROLLBACK" from the communicy and instead the community is saying the correct message which is something in the likes of "NO VARIABLE INPUT DELAY > NO ROLLBACK ARTEFACTS".

Tekken 7’s rollback has evolved, it’s 4 now. Really though, as long as it’s better that’s a good thing.

+R is smart to keep the stress test until the official release to see any more problem popping up. This will keep the player base up at all time.

So, I bought GG for the rollback to give it a try to. I kept saying to myself "is this "GREAT' online netcode everyone is talking about? This netcode is absolute garbo." I didn't understand what all the hype was about? Then I found out you had to turn on the beta netcode in setting. The difference was noticed right away. Complete change, and I started to enjoy my online experience. You really don't understand it till you play it.

This whole rollback situation has been a really bad look for Harada. He is surrounded by people trying to calmly explain things to him, and multiple examples of games retroactively getting good rollback, and he just shuts it all out.

played melee online when the standard was delay on dolphin and now when the standard is rollback on slippi. the difference is night and day, if anyone has trouble understanding the technical explanation of rollback and why its superior just have them experience it first hand

People literally making the argument that tekken already had rollback is beyond hilarious. It's like yeah I can walk out in the rain holding an umbrella but if I don't hold it right I'll still get fucking wet. It doesn't matter what it has if it isn't implemented right

Ironic thing is Harada accuses others of using buzzwords on a subject they don't understand; while himself using buzzwords on a subject he probably doesn't understand. Anybody can say you need to make "sacrifices" and direct your design in a specific direction, but knowing what those are and how it really influences your program is a different matter.

No matter what they name T7's netcode, it's still weak. I think the awareness about ethernet cables is the bigger benefactor to the improved connection. When you play a wifi warrior, it's still as bad as before.

"It's hard to retroactively fix and adjust our netcode guys" We know. You should have done it the right way in the first place. Rollback has been a thing for like about a decade and been getting more and more easily accessible by the years.

I think that Tekken 7's online has been trash for so long that a small improvement blows the minds of everyone. A majority of Tekken players don't play much fighting games other than Tekken especially games with rollback so they don't have much experience with rollback. I'm part of the majority so I don't know any better.

We need more State Of Rollbackia addresses.

The most surprising thing to me in this video is that Mike Ross actually had a mic on. I checked out his streams for a while when he started streaming again and he stopped talking for a long time.

Like Tekken and all but I think diehard Tekken fans are used to playing on dog shit netcode, so any improvment is the greatest thing ever and they overhype it. Sure its much better than before, but anyone putting it on par with KI or MK11 are kidding themselves. Still a step in the right direction, but I hope the Tekken community continues to ask for more and doesnt settle for barely average.

The Tekken netcode still doesn’t feel like rollback. It feels like they just cranked up the input delay. It’s better but still trash compared to +R, KI, or Skullgirls.

the breaking news transition was extremely smooth

I remember when I was playing Skullgirls for the first time and MikeZ had a quick explanation of his website on how rollback works. I figured "hey that's understandable". 10 years later and it's probably more of an enigma to some people on the internet then it was then. Tekken likely has something running in the background that accounts for delay, but it's surely not true rollback.

thanks for speaking on the subject

Love the "listen..." in the outro, lol.

Rip's take on the Boomcast was so bad. Comparing it to a stage magician and not wanting to know how the trick is done. The thing is everyone over the age of 8 knows stage magicians aren't doing magic, they're tricking you. The entire deal is they entertain you by deceiving you and you applaud them because it's impressively well done. You shouldn't be okay with a game developer who sells you a product, fucking lying about what they're doing. That's not an implicit deal we should be making with them like they're fucking stage magicians. Tekken's netcode is definitely improved. I don't know if it's rollback, some half assed implementation of rollback that preserves animations on longer delays or not rollback at all. I'm not that knowledgeable. But Harada should be honest about what they did or not talk about the how it was done at all, because the worst option is that he's lying. No matter how improved the netcode is he shouldn't be fucking excused for lying. Because even more than I'm tired of devs making broken games that don't work online, I'm even more tired of them lying about it.

I swear Mike was about to scream ABSOLUTE POWER at the top of his lungs.

bruh the netcode feels exactly the same. people just believe otherwise because they're avoiding the shit connections because with the wifi symbol.

Today I accidentally left Steam downloading a huge game while playing Tekken 7 online and the game was chugging and slowing down like good ol delay. I have not seen a single, I repeat, a single rollback. They've improved their delay based netcode but this is not even close to what we know as good rollback netcode. Even though SF V rollback netcode is unfinished it's clear as day it's rollback, just awfully left broken for no good apparent reason. It's kinda ironic and sad that Harada does not understand what we mean and he rather misinforms his fans instead of at least trying to understand what rollback netcode really is. He and his netcode team probably never touched a good rollback netcode game. And with this attitude I see no meaningful progress anytime soon.

I played some matches and there was one-two match where my opponent is laggy and freeze the game every 5-6 seconds. I applaud Bamco for trying but T7 netcode is still inferior compare to rollback in Garou, FEXL, SamSho 5, KoF 97, or Skullgirls.

Jam Jimmadome, Lord Of Rollbackia, First of His Name, Long may he reign.

The rollbackia council meeting

Thx for the info fam.

Delay back netcode went up by a couple points.

I just like hearing Sajam talk.

Sajam is settling

This channel, I don't know of any other wardrobe, white door or grey wall that I've stared at as much as the ones in Sajam's videos.

Coming from the early 90's Its still mind blowing to me that FG's are even playable online

There are still some freezes and minor issues (especially when playing against wifi warriors), but it's so much better now.

Definitely way better than before in Tekken, but there are still issues now and then. I get input drops at least once a match. Maybe 4 or 5 at most in a match. I'll hit a 2 button punish for eg, and only the first button comes out on screen.

+R and 2k2um getting rollback is so sick. I hope XRD and kof13/14 get it too.

Love the "breaking news" clip. lol

Its godly

STEVE MY ARM

Tekken feels great online now and am really enjoying it, hope they don't change it anymore

imma get "Tekken 7 is 3" tattoed on my forehead

Harada: we have rollback now Namco: we do? Harada:👨‍🦯

The combination of tekken's super long input buffer, slower startup moves, and the new netcode all work together in way thats very satisfactory. Do I hope T8 has ggpo rather than T7 netcode? Yes! Am I blow away at tekken's improvement? Yes!

in my experience, this netcode is improved 100%, it feels almost like offline to me with the inputs, even when I go across the atlantic it will still jitter however, you have to find a wifi player, also the absolute furthest connections where it hits a 3 bar isn't an amazing experience an improvement for sure over what 3 bar used to be, but it's still bad

Glad the GG beta has been extended. They probably got a lot more attention than they expected, kind of like how InnerSloth had to keep supporting Among Us when it got popular.

Season 4 have stricter input now compared to previous season.

Mike Ross is actually a well known Street Figter player, but gotta say that his reaction to Rollback was hilarious

Rip melee

SFV: "5 bars"

MIEK RUSS.

It’s a testament to the massive simps in the Tekken community that Harada still has his job after making such a complete fool of himself so many times.

Its much better now. You can actually sidestep on PS4 now.

Sajam honestly looks like the dude in the thumbnail

Please also talk about melee and Nintendo trying to kill it

State of Rollbackia adress

Mike Ross? Don't you mean Waxl? Who the hell is Mike Ross?

Im having great time in street fighter 5 n tekken 7 after netcode updates for both games... Cant wait to play a game with 100% rollback

It definitely feels a good amount better on average playing T7 online but it's not insane or revolutionary, it's just better.

The thing is Namco/Bandai are not that interest in fixing the netcode in T7 period,i s like asking to a restaurant "can you fix my soup is a little salty" when you already pay for it and eat it.

I do feel like T7 netcode is better, but yes it's not perfect. I just applaud them for even being able to improve it, just as they improved the input delay over a year ago. I don't care either way about Harada's tweets and quite frankly Twitter is a dumpster fire of misunderstandings, hot takes and noise cause of the format.

Mawledge

i cant definitively say what harada meant by that tweet, but honestly i think his comment was more based around thinking you can just "magically" switch rollback on, based on his comments about optimization right after. i think this is a case of engrish maybe doing more damage than he intended. we all know there is a good amount of work to be done and it requires your game to run tip top to be able to stay locked 60fps with incredibly low processor interrupt latency and lockstep timing between the two clients. i personally think if KI can do it then tekken 7 should be able to, but i dont know how efficient namcos tech solutions really are. what cant be ignored is that regardless of that, theyre just not interested. i would assume from the start of tekken 8 / soul calibur 7 / sfvtekken 2 they will be developing with the netcode in mind.

I cannot trust tekken bar any more, even with huge lag spike it still show 5 bar

Power rangers is a indie game and yet managed to get it in. So we know it's not a price thing. Now it being harder thing to add later I dunno and may be why tekken has issues

Netcodes meant to be better but i dont see or feel it, infact it feels worst, oh but i can play with a guy from taiwan with 4 bars for some reason

Improved but shakunetsu hadouken still causing frame drops online, that's awful. So this game is light years behind wb games (injustice and mortal kombat )

#freemelee

Im kinda inclined to give harada the benefit of the doubt since tekken is a 3d game. there's no other 3d games with good rollback so we dont know how easy/hard it is to implement rollback in 3d fgs. still, that doesnt mean it *shouldnt* be implemented.

And this is why we should all flame nintendo and #freemelee

One thing is sure Tekken is 3

The problem is just relying on rollback for Tekken 7 is not a good solution, it create other problems. I know they can do more, but if the game just rolls back every time, wavedash mix up's and many fuzzy guard become almost impossible to see and react to. Footsies especially in T7 get weird with heavy rollback. I love the new T7 netcode and i am enjoying it, but also i do know that Harada is right. The last thing i want to see is more Kazuya teleporting from a dash into a crouch dash, repeat.

Weird, sounds like they increase the input delay according to the connection instead of increasing the number of rollback frames. Maybe there are technical limitations or Namco doesn't have enough talent in their network engineers roster. I agree with what Harada says about people thinking that rollback/GGPO are the solution to world hunger. It's not because you read an explanation that you know how much work it would take in a particular game. You actually have an example of that in this video during the Mike Ross segment. For older games you can save/load the whole state of a given frame so even if he can play with Brazil, the cost is very much a concern for more recent games.

So... Is T7 worth a reinstall if I've been spoiled by KI netcode already?

i don t know for KI but for MK11 , the delay can change a lot during matches too and you can feel it, and if you play against people too far away or with bad connection matches can be unplayable even with rollback

Question: how do they manage side pick whilst using rollback in Tekken? Directional inputs no longer mean the same thing for both players if they pick the same side, whereas rollback typically works by sending directional inputs and button presses between both players. This could be one of the problems/optimisations that Harada is talking about.

As an aside, since MK11 ultimate i've been having the worst netplay in MK. Decent in Xrd, and tekken, sfv, and +R... even dbfz hasn't been too bad sometimes, but MK is the outlier.

Tekken 7 is 3

i agree with you! guilty gear ACR is the best fighting game we can have right now! literally 0% lag! thanks to GGPO ROLLBACK! tekken still sucks in online GGacr you can play with everyone in the globe! im from asia and i can play with people living in europe , north america , and south america with no DELAY and zero LAG at all! if that ggpo rollback implemented on dbfz bbtag and in ggstrive , me and my friends will definitely quit on tekken game.

Awww mmmyyyyy gaaaaawwdd RIP is so fucking stupid and hilarious at the same timeeeee

Well.. as a business they will try to keep pulling the wool over your eyes so they don't have to spend money on extra work. Doesn't matter if its namco.. or a company that rakes in like Blizzard.. even smaller like digital extremes.. they will always take the path of least resistance even if that involves convincing you that you're stupid. IMO this particular resistance to rollback with fighting games also has a pinch of Japanese business solidarity.. if they didn't brew the tech they don't want to pay outside companies for it.. but I honestly can't lean on that theory too hard because Arksys gladly co-operated.. but with powerhouses like Capcom and Namco who are willing to die on this hill of nonsense.. I just keep getting the solidarity vibe (remember, most japanese refused to buy Xbox when it first dropped and it probably still sells on the low side there).. I just hope they keep in mind that mikes cries are the collective despair of the FGC, and its really just ensuring that their hard work is enjoyed for years to come.. Harada is really getting out of control treating the community like idiots..

fighting games are the last couch game

I want to share with you guys my personal experience with t7's new update, from a tekken king player so not the best, not the worst. The netcode has improved a lot, in 2 aspects mainly: i find way much more 5 bars and 4 bars connections, and some 5 bars feels almost like offline... but, but.... there are still problems: not all 5 bars are equal, at all... in some matches i feel a bit of lag, expecially when i try to duck non jailing strings and to a lesser extent when i try to punish with the correct punish (most of the time -14). Ok sometimes i know it's me being too slow, but other times i'm pretty sure i was fast enough but the wrong thing happens. 4 bars, to me, are the exact same thing as before (but probably i found more of them while searching). Overall still not perfect but a great improvement

Oh so Tekken really just improved their delay based netcode and has been lying about having rollback? (Edit: More informed viewers explained to me Tekken technically has implemented a form of rollback, it’s just they prefer less obvious teleports)

Vote with your time, play games with good rollback instead, they can argue and excuse anything except cold hard numbers.

what’s so funny about what rip said

Tekken still fucking CRASHES or else hangs for like 10 seconds during a match and then reconnects and that shit is not cool...

People should speak with their wallets from now on. If a fighting games releases with no rollback and barebone modes and features just don't fucking buy it. Harada should be ashamed to attack fans that literally put money in his pocket for just wanting a better game. Tekken 7 to me is a letdown of a game cause of how barebone it is compared to other Tekken games and the only reason it got big is cause people were very mad about the state of SFV so they just saw Tekken 7 as a big "fuck you" to SFV even though T7 was just as barebones but with a much better gameplay, well at least on the first 2 Seasons. If Tekken 8 gets released as barebones as T7 and with no real rollback netcode I'm not buying that shit.

I played some friends yesterday from australia to the us in tekken, it felt like 20 frames of input delay not exaggerating and the game itself was running slower than normal. But it was a 3 bar connection apparently. I guess that means it feels like offline now? That's what i keep seeing on twitter anyway Time to go back to playing ggxx with them with basically zero issues :)

As someone who plays a lot of rollback games, it's baffling that people don't demand more from their favorite games. I never could play GG online because of the horrendous netcode, now +R is a godsend. Tekken 7's netcode isn't absolute dogshit now so it's the best there is, according to Rip. I get that Tekken players love Tekken so much that they don't care about anything else, but you have to look laterally, it's netcode just doesn't compare to some games from 7 or more years ago like KI or Skullgirls, let alone some contemporaries like MK 11.

Isn't good rollback a combination of delayed based and rollback netcode? I remember most of the fighting games considered with good online allow you to pick you a max delay. Also it may be difficult for Tekken to lower the delay side of things because all of the transitions due to it being an arena fighter. Since even MK devs have stated rollback isn't desirable during really cinematic things like brutalities and stage transitions. Maybe for Tekken to improve their workings of rollback is to actually move to client/server based instead of peer to peer. That should greatly help with them being able to lower any necessary delay.

I'm glad the netcode's improved. Unfortunately my ears are immediately bodied by the character select music. 😂

just sitting here as an sfv head and crying

I honestly don't think it's that hard to get started programming a game with ggpo. You can download the ggpo source and have a working demo going within hours. As far as I know it's MIT licensed so there are no licensing issues. Depending on how your game was made, it may be more difficult to fit it into an existing game, but still not that difficult imo as long as your game is deterministic (same inputs always lead to same gameplay behavior). I think japanese devs are just too proud to use an existing open source library that already solved the problems.

I would like to know more about MK11's netcode, specifically, because MK11 feels awful to play online. I have played KI, and I think that is the best online fighting game experience I've ever had, but then I have stuff like SF5 and Tekken 7 where if the match is good and it's a five bar, the game works really really well, almost offline-like. And then, MK11, where everybody seemingly is playing a different game from me. Everyone says MK11 has the most amazing netcode ever, but even 50-60ms connections feel like they're underwater or under mud. It really feels like there's about five or six frames of delay, so much that mashing D1 literally beats me because I can't D1 back on block, my character literally does not respond in time with my reaction. So I really would like to know. Is there a difference between the netcode of the PC version (which is the one I play) and the console versions? Is PC using a gimped version of the netcode? Is MK11 using a different version of GGPO than the one I'm used to with KI? Because I feel like there's absolutely no way someone who played KI can play MK11 and say that it's just as good.

HaHaha Tekken 7 netcode STILL trash. Much to learn Bandai Namco, your way behind the competition.

Harada is the single biggest liar in the FGC, probably worse than Ono.