No Sajam, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its 3. Read well.

Between KI, SFV, and T7, we got rollback that works, rollback that sucks, and rollback that doesn't do anything. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

No wonder the online feels ripped from 1998, Tekken 7 was actually Tekken 3 all along

Damn that's so godlike, a rollback netcode that works exactly like delay-based!

Harada: Everyone talks about rollback without knowing it. Also Harada: TK7 is 3

you guys are thinking way too hard bro. he said it’s 3.

Bamco really has been pushing the fighting game boundaries. They some how made rollback that functions the same as delayed.

Tekken 7's rollback is so seamless that you genuinely don't know that you're even using it

Clearly we are misinterpreting Harada's tweet, since 4 is oft associated with death in Japanese Culture, Harada was just saying that Tekken 7 is almost dead.

I"ll believe it as soon as someone posts a clip of a rollback occurring that ISN'T just a lifebar or hitspark glitching. Show an actual animation rolling back or a character teleporting.

I think he meant Tekken 7 netcode is a 3\10, at least he's being honest

Harada should learn when to use his "charm" and when to ask a PR agent for help

I'm pumped for Rollback Rumble but the online sounds terrible

Clearly he meant it only rolls back if the lag occurs on the 3rd frame. If the lag occurs on frames before the 3rd frame, you get counter hit by the lag and are at a frame disadvantage. If the lag happens after the third frame, your rollback frame gets launch punished and you have to deal with the oki setup.

Imagine throwing your devs under the bus because you can't admit that you don't know everything.

Two things after watching this: 1. I didn't think it was possible that there could be a game with worse rollback netcode than SFV. I can see why Harada kept quiet about for so long. Speaking of him... 2. His response was completely uncalled for, but also not surprising from someone who think they're being cute wearing shirts that say "Don't ask me for shit" while wearing "deal with it" glasses. I can see where Michael gets his attitude from now. It explains everything.I have to give respect to Dan for taking the nasty reply he was given as well as he did. Major respect.

Oh, so Harada getting away with being rude about valid criticisms from a base he and Bandai Namco as a whole continues to do a piss-poor job of communicating with. In other news, water is wet and the Earth is round. And now a word from our sponsors.

Man, I always said Tekken7 was 3 and you guys didn't listen. If you guys just studied quantum mechanics of course you would know what he means.

Harada thinking input delay and rollback is the same thing.

The only thing that worries me is if someone at ArcSys is like, "Whoa, Namco has rollback implemented in a fighting game already! Let's CONSULT WITH THEM, and use their solution for Strive!"

"Rollback netcode is delay-based netcode, but with more features." - @TheKeits

Remember in 2014 when Harada gave a bunch of excuses about why Tekken couldn't have in-game frame data? You know, when Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown, and Dead or Alive 5 (Japanese devs, no less) had a frame data display in 2012? And Skullgirls had frame data and hitbox/hurtbox display(!!!) from the jump? In 2012? And then Tekken put out... what do you know, a frame data display, in December 2019 (5 years after Harada said he wouldn't do it,) for like $3 a pop? Tired. Just tired of all these guys.

Harada is a legend, but he can't disrespect my man Dan Fornace like that

4 dollar for roleback

Harada was a little full of himself on this one.

Sajam you navigated this discussion really well my bru. It was pretty cringey watching these events unfold on twitter

Japanese developers can always find innovative ways to either not add Rollback to their games, or to add it without it actually working. Harada managed to do so by implementing reverse rollback.

Man, Harada and Murray have been grinding for Ls. This sucks to watch happen again and again.

Sounds like Harada doesn't know what he's talking about Is it possible that Japanese games don't use rollback because Japanese developers *have no goddamn idea what rollback even means?!*

bigger fighting game developers constantly lying about their netcode reminds me of ubisoft saying female animations were impossible on a technical level

It has changed from "Don't ask me for shit" to "Don't ask me shit"

Him talking about how more frames messes up with 3D animation makes me think he is not confusing rollback with input delay frames, as you usually deal with these kinda problems when implementing rollback (VFX, SFX, animations). Not many games support an indefinite amount of frames to rollback if a huge spike of lag occurs and that is usually compensated with stuttering or delay frames. Still, 3 frames of maximum rollback is pretty bad and its even worse if it doesn't help with game feel and doesn't give you that sensation of "I feel like I'm playing locally".

Never knew about this for rollback, thank you for the lesson

I hate haradas arrogant type of mentality. He thinks everybody who isn't on his opinion is an idiot. But doesn't see that he wouldn't be anything without his loyal tekken Fanbase who were with him for 20+ years so he can make a good fighting game. Seriously before tekken 5 it wasn't even clear to him how he wants tekken to be. If there werent his Fans who played the game and said what would be good instead of the things and cringe ideas he had his Games would be still absolutely garbage. Plus he started the serious in a time where almost nobody had a clue how a game should work and every game Dev just putted in some cool looking shit what was broken. Tekken 5 was broken too but the Formular of how the game should work got damn good over the years and all Thanks to his Fans who just spoke out what is wrong with the game. Without his Fans we would still have a Steve who Beats the whole Cast with 2 moves or some other Bullshit. He better should Listen to the Community again or otherwise he is ruining his own game again.

The thumbnail has me in tears lmao. "Are you the same rollback AND a different beast???"

I think the best way to describe Tekken having rollback is 'disingenuous'. It's, at best, a misguided understanding of what rollback is. Tekken technically ticks some boxes and has the capability for slight rollback, ergo it has rollback netcode is disingenuous and Harada seems to be pretty smug about this one for no reason.

Sajam I think I solved it. I believe Harada and Co. have a rollback engine that always runs, regardless of online. This allows for 2 arcade machines in the same venue (0 ping environment) to have a game where the two machines can still resync using the 3 rollback frames (this also makes the game feel more consistent offline). Tekken likely then uses delay based netcode for it's online-arcade and console implemented online services, on top of the always-on rollback engine.

Thanks for clearing up this discussion, Sajam. It's pretty cringe to see Harada responding like that to a fellow developer who worked in implementing rollback netcode in at least a couple of high profile games. In fact he shouldn't treat anybody like that (and yes, I know some fans can de hard to deal with, but still, common courtesy is the bare minimum).

What I got from this is that Harada needs a translator that knows the difference between rollback and input delay. Tekken 8 is probably going to have unplayable, shit netcode and I'm stuck playing nothing but NRS games for the foreseeable future.

Oh how cute the japanese fighting game dev thinks his game has rollback

What I'm understanding from all of this is that the term "rollback" has likely not been standardised from a developer perspective. At the very least, it's been standardised but everyone is being too stubborn about getting on board. It all feels like in-fighting within the FG development space and the players are completely sidelined. What frustrates me the most is how the original GGPO creators seem to have never been fully acknowledged by the big game devs for what they brought to the table. Almost like they saw them as the stone that started an undesirable ripple effect.

Albert Einstein: E=mc2 Harada: TK7 = 3

3:04 tfw you _try_ to give someone an out, but it flies over their head and at that point you have no choice but to back out and watch the train wreck continue

I foresaw the creation of this video when I saw the tweet and the first image to come to my mind was the classic sajam "WHAT DO YOU MEAAAAAAAAN?"

They've been hiding rollback... just haven't flipped the rollback switch yet.

Harada's definition of rollback netcode is pausing at the last known game state before the opponent signal is lost. Since the game on your end is known 3 frames past the pause, he considers going back to to the paused visual state as "rolling back", even though you never see those 3 frames until the opponent signal is picked back up and only if that game state is consistent for both players. Going to 6 frames will not remove the pause... It will just simulate your visual game state 6 frames ahead instead of 3, which you still won't see any of until the opponent signal is picked back up and only if their visual game state matches yours. It may happen a bit less often, but it will certainly still happen. I mean, he's technically correct saying it's "rolling back", but that doesn't mean that's what we're asking for. Technically chips and bread are both made of carbohydrates, but that doesn't mean I'm asking for chips if I request some bread... Harada values visual consistency over smooth constant action, even if we don't apparently

It's a coded message, TTT3 will have rollback! Yeah, that's unlikely to happen.

I think I've only seen 3 examples of rollback ever in Tekken

Hey Sajam can you explain it in sandwich terms? I cant understand roll back speak

The Tekken Team is so good they improved their netcode and its called Delay Based Netcode 2!!

You gotta feel bad for Dan, feels like he stepped over the don't ask harada nothin' line without intending to, legit had the best of intentions

Thank you so much for explaining this :)

Ah yes, using one of the greatest commercials ever as a thumbnail, Respect. Also R.I.P Kobe Bryant.

“Poise and Rollback are working as intended”

I scrolled down a bit on that Twitter feed you linked and saw you bringing up your sandwich analogy. Where did you learn to make sandwiches? Who layers vegetables with meats like that!?

God tier thumbnail dude.

So my question is: has Harada ever heard of Dunning-Kruger? Someone should introduce them to one another.

big Th0nks Harada

Sad that they couldn't get Rollback working in Rivals. Would make a great game even better.

Lmao there goes Harada barking at the moon again.

Having played MBAACC with the Cccaster for some years, I can say that some games can have a fixed number of frames for rollback. Now, I know this method isn't exactly popular, but it does exist.

The number 3 is about to be a great FGC meme

Let's formulate a theory based on what info we have. First of all, you are absolutely right that rollback is verifiable. If you don't see rollback, then it didn't happen. Period. The second point is, you can have rollback + delay based netcode. Mortal Kombat, which is famous for having good netcode, has both combined. See the "8 frames in 16ms" video from the GDC presentation here on KZfaq. Please don't criticize a game for having both. All it needs is for the implementation to be *decent*. Now, given all that, let's assume that the game can rollback up to 3 frames (it seems this is what he said, and if you watch the video I referenced you would see that the value is 8 for MKX). I never played Tekken 7 nor did I watch their animations frame-by-frame, but if the first 3 frames of *every single* animation are very subtle, then rollback would be indeed hard to notice for human eyes. Still, you would be able to verify it by watching recorded matches frame-by-frame and checking that up to 3 frames of animations are being skipped. Can someone please do that? Still, I can't find an explanation for not seeing janky walking, except if the game adds extra delay to walk inputs in order to compensate/mask for the rollback. But this is just a terrible idea, it's masking rollback with extra input delay. Later you ask a bunch of questions: "why don't we see health bars going back? why don't see see hit /block sparks? why don't this and that?". The simple answer would be: those things wouldn't appear if no move has active frames in the first 3 frames. And that is possible. SFV has 3 frame jabs, so any rollback of more than 4 frames should already make your health bar go down+up. As far as I remember, Tekken has like 7 frame jabs doesn't it? Longer animations give players a better feeling when rollback is happening, because you see more of it. My last theory would be that the frames their engine is rolling back are only the frames that are being delayed by the input delay, so in effect it is having zero difference if the input delay is bigger than 3. I hope that's not the case.

7:25 a fixed amount of rollback/resimulation frames will play exactly like dynamic rollback where the max number of rollback/resimulation frames matches the fixed value. the only difference when it's dynamic is that there's less cpu utilization when the network latency is low. to say that the "fixed" nature of this theoretical rollback implementation is bad seems like a misunderstanding or a miscommunication.

I think the theory your using for "rollback rumble" is exactly whats happening. there's the static 3 frames of rollback and then variable delay. Sounds really counterintuitive, but I have had moments online where a move hit but then didn't actually like in the clip, but it was on good, clean connections with hardly noticable input lag. Granted I've only ever had it happen 2 or 3 times.

this may sound dumb but I think Harada mixed up online netcode with in-game built in delay because I recall the PS4 version of T7 having around 6f delay then at some point they did an update that lowered it to 3 or something like that. That's just me trying to make sense of what he's saying one way or another lol.

I actually see the rollback probably once every 20 games. It's very hard to catch at just 3 frames so I'm probably missing more, but there is definitely rollback

Wait hold on. You meaning to say that all I need to do, in order for tekken to have rollback, is to donate $300 to Sajam. Ingenious. Why, I can't believe I didn't know about this sooner. Could this perhaps work for other games as well? If I just start donating. And, you know. Never stop. Does that mean that every fighting game will have rollback? Why, I simply MUST try this.

For the curious, another example of rollback in tekken: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/aL5xZJeBm9GpgXk.html As for animations comment, this is just a hunch, cause i don't even play capcom fighting games to have a good enough clue on the implementation, but clothlike stuff simulation could be problematic to rollback. As for the 3, it could mean that they always simulate the game 3 frames at every frame. This could be to ensure the game performs well when under stress... not sure why they would include it in a final version tho...

I feel like the rematch loading screen is also delay xD They just don't care about online experience

I think he may have been talking about built-in delay. You know when games have some delay when played locally to make the transition to the online less jarring. That's as much sense as I can make out of "TK7 is 3".

Im guessing what they mean by rollback is 3 is like C.C.Caster in melty blood where you can put the rollback frame value

Typical “Dont ask me for 💩” Harada response....

rollback netcode is the future which developers should aim for better implementation in fighting games to improve gameplay which players can notice and appreciate

So all this time we play Tekken 3 in Tekken 7?

I don't know if the game has rollback but I highly recommend watching Netherrealm's network GDC talk. From the information in your video, it sounds like T7 has a base delay on every input, like Netherrealm's games, then if inputs arrive later than the base delay, rollback kicks in up to 3 frames. After that the game just stops. You're asking why you never see signs of rollback in the game while he literally says that they chose 3 frames to avoid these very signs.

Healthbar rollback means actual rollback, I don't think there's any way to get that unless it was recalculated. You don't see choppy animations all the time is because there's animation smoothing. Not defending the current netcode though because obviously something's not right. My guess is that they tested and considered their implementation good enough for two wifi users in Japan, failing to account for the distances you have in the rest of the world. On their good internet let's say you have 20ms constant ping + every once in a while a 100ms wifi lag spike by one of the players, so the worst case is 120ms since it's unlikely to happen to both at the same time. But what happens if you have 80ms constant ping + 100ms from a spike? Now you're up to 180ms. If they put their threshold at 150ms for when the game has to freeze, then it would almost never happen for their test case, and always happen for the rest of the world. Either that or there's a separate bug like maybe the game decides to freeze and resync the clocks every time there's a spike. I'm cautiously optimistic that they can fix it since they already have internal programmers competent enough to implemented actual rollback.

The only thing I can think of is that the game does use a rollback-esque type of netcode. But whenever the ping spikes higher than "3", whatever "3" is cause I'm having to assume it's not three frames, the game has to stop to try and figure out what the hell is happening which causes the freezes and delays. It would cause the game to rewrite the game state and if the system isn't that great about the predictions, it would freeze like crazy.

There might be something lost in translation here. I think Harada might not understand what rollback means in context of netcode. He might be misinterpreting rollback as delay.

"Okay tell us for real, is it rollback or delay based netc-?" *"Y E S ."*

Can we honestly see a 3 frame rollback?

3

does Harada just not know what rollback netcode is? because I would not be at all surprised

Sajam all it means it's just 3/10 implementation of rollback

*yeah that makes sense*

Rollback Rumble sounds dope

What is Haradas point? Does he just want to dethrone SFV from having the worst rollback?

Sajam do be looking like wolverine at this stage

So what I'm gathering is that Tekken 7 does in fact have rollback, but because they prioritized animations over game feel, it functions more like delay-based. And if that's so, then as Sajam said: if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc It's like if I baked you a birthday cake, but I burned the outside and the inside was still goopy and then told you to shut up when you point it out.

YO ITS DAN FORNACE

im pretty sure tekken does have roll back but in a game where reacting to mixups is slight of hand i can see how implementing roll back would be hard.

Harada said 3 Gabe Newell: this guy is too dangerous to let alive

i played a lot of tekken tag2 and i had a bunch of instances of obvious rollback netcode scenarios (things like a hit turning into a block) on top of the game's netcode being far better than T7's the game still had slowdowns and stops but they were not that common, i had about 250 hours on tekken 7 and i have never seen a single situation that is characteristic of a rollback netcode, not a single one, instead it is always slowdowns, stops, randomly increased input delay out of nowhere etc i have no idea why they didn't just reuse tag2's netcode in t7, it might be due to the new engine but it is hard to know for sure

"Reading this tweet does not make your online connection suddenly better" okay, so WHY am I even on Twitter, then?

3 Whole Rollbacks? WOW

Vanilla SG actually had similar response to lag despite attempting to use rollback.

Meanwhile a single guy developed rollback netcode for smash bros. melee in 6 months, released it a few days ago and I have never seen lag ever again. Big companies suck

Harada agreed in his follow up that it is a maximum of 3

Perhaps Tekken has a 3-frame window for e.g. turning a '1' move input into a '1+2' move? (Thus "rolling back" 3 frames, despite that not being rollback netcode.)

Is he talking about input buffer maybe?