I have a feeling they’re working on that. I asked a question about that in a live stream and Ed said “we don’t talk about our developments, but is the 3000 scalable, yes, am I going to say more than that? No”. I was like ok so dual 15”?? Lol

​@@HiFinest343it would be logical for them to use existing driver sizes, so maybe we'll get a proper dual-driver SB3000 or 2000

@@TokeBoisen I think a dual 13.5” will be their flagship, if I had to guess. The enclosure will be too large for the dual 15”. They have high standards for design, a flagship piece will demand the 8” voice coil they have on the bigger units, so that’ll take up kore space. Maybe a single magnet like the KC62? I dunno but I imagine it’ll be similar to Arendal if they do something like that. It’s time though. The 16 ultra is getting long in the tooth!

@@HiFinest343, it would be the next step for SVS. The DSP-tech and app from the 16-Ultra has trickled down through the entire range, and they have shown several designs now using dual drivers (3000 Micro and In-Wall). Plus there are several advantages to dual-driver subwoofers compared to a similar-output single-driver design, though it comes with its own limitations and compromises as well. SVS stood for a long time as THE subwoofer-brand, but recent increased competition in all segments and their own prices creeping up has put a bit of a damper on that. It'll be interesting to see if they think a dual 13.5" or dual 12" design are feasible.

@@TokeBoisen agreed on all fronts. Good point on the 3000 micro and in wall being dual drivers. I have dual in-walls with the single amp and it lights up my home gym. Absolutely love it, they know what they’re doing with these duals.

Glad I could help!

Thank you!

You bet!

Coming soon!

Thanks for sharing that information! Yes, the SVS is noticeably lighter. Pretty sure KEF filled the KC62 with lead. 😂 I think products like this are are great way for people to understand the necessity of a subwoofer. It’s one of those “don’t know what you’re missing” scenarios. Larger subs were the only way to get good bass but with the improvement of smaller subs like this - especially when running multiples - having bass is now very accessible.

Thanks, Joe!

I don’t believe I’ve seen results for the SB-1000 but odds are it gets lower than the 3000 Micro. Thank you very much for the donation! It helps a lot.

You bet!

me two thanks

Thanks for the donation. I really appreciate that.

It’s possible but I doubt that’s the case. I tested 6 other subwoofers that day and none of them exhibited this behavior. You mentioned other’s measurements. Are they anechoic? In-room measurements would easily mask these things.

I can. I just like to show these at their true SPL so the numbers are absolute rather than relative. I’ll keep your suggestion in mind for the final “shootout” style video. Thanks!

I just posted it to my Patreon page for early viewing.

I’ve been at this for a while now. I rarely talk about myself, but if there is one thing, I’m consistently good at one thing I’m really good at is integrating subwoofers. So despite the fact I don’t talk about how they sound, I always listen and work to get the best integration I can. The problem is, I would say the vast majority of people haven’t had the experience or the time to use DSP with features such as filters, eat you at all, pass filters to really understand how to properly integrate subwoofers into their system. So then I’m left with explaining the basics of frequency response and SPL capabilities because that’s really all people seem to listen for. I would love to create a video on subwoofer integration, but it’s a topic that is much better demonstrated live so people can hear the changes in real time. I have helped many people with subwoofer integration in person. However, I have yet to figure out a way to do it over KZfaq.

I’m not sure to be honest. I thought about it and I just don’t know if it’s something in the tuning relative to the FS of the drivers combined with the enclosure size and DSP or some sort of drive unit resonance. I see little wiggles and some of these other subwoofers, but I’ve not seen anything with them that looks quite like this particular one.

The 92 is in an entirely different category though.

Thank you!

Well, I appreciate you using that link. Please be sure to write back in. Let me know how it all works out for you in the end. I really like follow follow up to see if people are satisfied with their purchases and if they’re not what I can do better to help in the future.

Obviously according to him, these are qualities that don't matter.. so all subs are the same as long as they can attain the same spl with similar frequency response. Which is bs in my book.

^ Never said that. In fact… The CEA-2010 is a tone burst measurement. Which accounts for instantaneous distortion and compression. The FR indicates the system Q. So you can use these methods to ascertain dynamics and sound quality to a very large degree. The final result, though, is down to integration with your system. For example, it doesn’t matter how good the subwoofer is if it is set up out of phase with your mains.

That was my experience. A part of me wonders if it really just comes down to being easier to control the output of a smaller woofer. But if that the case, in room measurements should remove this discrepancy, should it not?

They do. But the only way those are independent other room is if you’re not listening in a room. Once that subwoofer goes into the room, the response will change and where it may have had tightness before, it may now be booming. That’s why it’s important to have anechoic data to see what’s going on with the speaker to help you better plan your system. For example, I care about linearity and SPL. As long as the Subwoofer behaves linearly I can reliably equalize the response in my room. And as long as there is enough output capability, then I know if I can comfortably equalize some issues out or maybe add a little bit, depending on how the room influences the response.

Have been using RELs lacking that continuous phase control for listening to 2-channel music with high end speakers for years now and I can't say I have missed that phase control. Maybe if one crosses the subs too high or uses them with very small satellite speakers but other than that it has not been my impression that such phase control has much to add. It just confuses people and makes setup more complex.

@@razisnMore complex? It’s the same concept, you have a helper adjust the control until it sounds best (or you use a measurement mic and test tones). It may take a little extra time but that’s all. For the premium REL charges they could at least add it.

Dirac Live will probably help.

Yeah I've got a polk hts-12 and that thing has about 26ms of delay. Is that a common amount of delay for subs?

@@MaMuSlol i have no idea, i know there are some active speakers that have above 100ms and those have a low latency toggle. i am guessing it harder to measure for ported , increasing delay due to port. maybe a measurement for the highest frequency it can play to get a baseline delay and one for the most common crossover frequency.

I’m not saying I will not, but it’s not in the plans right now. I think after I finish up this round of small subwoofers, I’m going to move on to something else for a little while.

Slightly? What are you smoking.

⁠@@AlbertKeland he said ‘may’ just produce more My guy definitely smoking something 😂

I’d be willing to but I’d have to acquire it.

i only had one PA woofer in a subwoofer, but i do agree that those PA have a sound to them that is enticing. if you can compare directly between same size driver and both sealed box, then REW measurement and see if it shows up in the graph. i have some guesses that explain the difference in sound, lighter cone creates a earlier roloff at the low frequencies, that makes things sound more tactile in the upper bass. if you have dsp and make them have the same frequency response it makes them sound alike. then i rather pick a oversized PA driver even tho it has less excursion, generally half of a common subwoofer driver. if that makes sense, cone area over excursion, but about the same air displacement.

@@sudd3660 I actually own a sealed 8inch home theater sub with the typical flexible surrounds. Given the driver size, yes, it does play higher frequencies much better giving it more mid bass kick than your typical 12inch home theater sub. But it's still nothing like a PA woofer. I don't think frequency response measurements tell the whole story. When listening to bassy music like rap or EDM, a small heavy woofer with flexible surrounds ends up flopping around uncontrollably when there's a lot going on in the music. That makes the bass sound soft and muddy. Those very lightweight yet large PA woofers barely move and keep their composure much better it seems.

Try an enema. That should help. 😂😂

HSU VTF 15 MK2. it will squeeze the chocolatey goodness" out of your body and get rid of all of your pets and rats at the same time...plus break a few windows.

Probably a ported design with a single large woofer, or at least one with a passive radiator. Both the KF62 and SVS 3000 Micro are sealed box designs with two small woofer drivers for tight and more accurate bass (and less TP).

As far as a "chocolatey bottom end" Schitt Audio doesn't make speakers or sub-woofers yet (only electronics), but maybe some day.

​@docwho10th88 I had 2 of those in my last house and they were remarkable! 16 hz pipe organ notes literally caused damage in my theater 😊 We live in a 40ft. 5th wheel now and switched over to 2) SVS SB3000 subs and they are excellent for both music and movies. Very small after owning the HSU "end tables" 😂 and perfect for our small space. 👌

Same way you measure any subwoofer. As long as you’re at least a few feet away, it won’t make a difference at all.

@@ErinsAudioCorner thanks man! So no need to flip over the sub, woofer facing mic, but only leave it as is and measure?

@@rikardekvall3433 correct. 👍

That is a good question, especially those that have complex DSP circuitry.

Yes.

😂

The SB2000 uses a single 12-inch woofer driver. The Micro uses Dual (two) opposing 8-inch drivers (not one woofer and one passive radiator, but two full-blown woofers) running back to back with each other. So the SB2000 (better for movies) goes a bit lower in frequency response than the tighter and faster 3000 Micro (better for music).

Thanks for your response. I'm going back and watching all your old videos, great content! I believe I read smaller woofers being faster/tighter was a myth or fallacy.@@Mark-rw3kw

It is a myth, a lot of things go in to how " fast" a sub is. One of my systems is an Infinite Baffle subwoofer setup that uses a 4 x 15" manifold arrangement ( 2 15" drivers facing 2 15" drivers). It is "faster" than either my sealed 10" or ported 12" subs I use elsewhere. It takes very little excursion to produce the sound that a small sub will struggle with.

@@jgsabato It's certainly possible that a large driver is designed to need less travel than a smaller driver using a different design or different manufacturer. But I wouldn't say it is a complete myth. Pat of the issue with a ported design is that some sound is not coming from the driver itself and may arrive at a different time. Infinite baffles are a lot more complex in this regard.

An infinite baffle is not complex at all, it is in essence a sealed subwoofer; that is as simple as it gets. A ported design is more difficult to get right than an IB. You just need drivers that have TS parameters that are compatible with IB designs. That is true of any good sub and why programs like WinISD, Bassbox and others exist. You can model the driver/box combination to get good results.

That’s a reasonable conclusion. However, I would caution others to consider their music library. I listen to all sorts of music and often times it has content that goes below 40 Hz.

That's what you'd use a low-pass filter on your pre-amp for. :)

@@ErinsAudioCorner but why have the sub capable of such high output, unless you are pandering to people that miss the old Bose Acoustimass systems. You would set the upper crossover and slope on the sub though normally, would you not? Not many high end hifi preamplifiers have hi or low pass filters so you would be limiting your market by relying on that.

I don’t personally see the use for them, but there must be a market for them because they are producing them and more companies are making them. So those people are the ones that I hope are seeing these videos.

I wouldn't call 25% larger in each direction and double the volume "barely larger". Lots of people fit this into cabinets or corners where they just don't have the choice.

You pay premium for the size for sure. A lot of people (at least here in Nothern Europe) have TV cabinets that are only ~30cm deep nowadays and want a sub that fits either next to it or inside the unit.

Both the KF62 and SVS 3000 Micro are sealed box designs with two small woofer drivers for tight and more accurate bass than a single large driver. If you look at very high-end tower speakers, most of them have at least 2 woofer drivers instead of one larger woofer driver for the same reason.

@@eetu2532 One should not put the SVS 3000 Micro or the KF62 into a cabinet since they both have dual opposing woofer drivers, and at least one driver would be facing a cabinet wall, which is obviously less than ideal (to put it mildly). Not just talking about one woofer and one passive radiator, but two active woofers.

Frequency response and max SPL are huge factors. Subs shouldn’t be made for music like a speaker shouldn’t be made for a specific genre. You tell me… why would a subwoofer be better suited for music than movies? Music and movies all cover a broad range of frequencies. It’s illogical to think they should be tailored for one specific function. These are audiophile tropes that are unfortunately perpetuated. I won’t do that. It just dumbs things down and doesn’t actually inform. 👍

@@ErinsAudioCorner Easy answer. Everything is a compromise unless one spends a boatload of money, so it depends which compromises are made and what your money goes towards. For movie effects you need very high SPL and lowest bottom end. You never judge tone or timber and distortion when listening to an explosion. So your money goes towards SPL and lowest frequency response. For music that lowest bottom end (lowest octave say 16-32Hz) is rarely if ever needed to sound loud and SPL of the rest of the freq. range should just be inline with the main speakers. On the other hand, coherency with the main speakers, clean bass notes and the ability to follow fast main speaker woofers and integrate well and easily with them is what matters. Otherwise the whole of the bottom end sounds wooly, slow, muddy and muffled and you can spend ages dealing with DSP to no avail. DSP maybe nice to have (though it poses its own problems) but in no way necessary for good quality subs in a 2-channel music system unless one's room is really horrible or placement is very wrong. A sub which may be quite adequate for reproducing the LF channel of an average domestic HT setup, can ruin a pair of very decent speakers when one listens to 2-channel music. Hence for a long time 2-channel music listeners shied away from subs because their experience had been limited to subs meant for HT (both cheap and not so cheap). When setting up subs for a 2-channel good quality music system the idea is to have the subs fill in the missing octaves without calling attention to themselves. You don't realise they are there until you switch them off. When you have a bass player traversing the frequency range between main and subs you don't want to hear a change in timber and quality. Not many subs can do that well and be also good in HT duties. You obviously have never heard a good modern sub geared towards 2-channel music. Of course an ideal sub will we able to do both jobs well but then we're talking about very serious money. As I said I really do not see why a sub should be differentiated in how it is measured or subjectively judged versus the woofer of main speakers.

Well, of course. Some diehards will even say the same thing about 15 inch subwoofers. There are some guys who are using multiple 24 inch subwoofers. As always, it comes down to your needs and practicality. There’s always a trade-off.

Not everyone buys a subwoofer for movies. Some buy them strictly for music.

Some say the same about 15’s.

If it does not shake your body violently and make things fall off the wall....it's only a glorified box. Been doing sub shootouts since the 80's and SVS were and still are the Walmart garbage subs.

Why are 8" subs a waste of money? Do you think they make no difference? I had the Rel T Zero MKIII 6" sub and it made a huge difference to my bookshelves. I then upgraded to the SVS Micro 3000 and then the Kef KC62 and both are amazing. I also had the SVS 2000 Pro and it was the worst of the lot. It just didn't work in my smaller office.

Subwoofer...not a mid bass module...a true subwoofer hits below 20Hz down to at least 17Hz and shatters things. A tiny box is not going to get you there.

Here,,this is a true sub and this guy knows what he is doing kzfaq.info/get/bejne/eceWpL12zZaso2g.html@@c0mbat15