Thank you!!!!

For kef or svs?

Kef

Thanks Dave. A good bookshelf + subwoofer setup can easily sound as good as a pair of floorstanders in my opinion

You're spot on. Really, it's about expectations and how the sub(s) react in the room. I have a pretty large living room and garage space and both of these got loud enough for my taste if I corner loaded then. I'm sure if I placed them mid-wall or pulled away, it would be a completely different story.

Is it really necessary to have a high pass filter for use in a 2 channel system?

It's been 6 months since your comment, so how is the SVS micro + app holding up? I'm considering it for music and TV audio setup in a small apartment.

@@Underhills I rarely use the sub for 2 reasons. Even though its a small sub a and I don’t turn it up too loud, I think it bothers the neighbours and 2, I like the sound of my speakers. I still really like the app however I think for my apartment I would like to try the little Kef sub. Even though the SVS goes low which would be great for movies, I feel like I’m missing mid/low bass articulation/detail when it comes to music.

@@j.craigh.3480 So if the sub overpowers or interferes with your two speakers then perhaps your setup isn't optimal. Have you reduced sub output enough? Is it placed in a cabinet or is it floor standing? Where's your speakers? Are they too cheap or "weak" to be paired with the sub? I had a listen to the SVS SB-1000 and that sounded great as a hi-fi sub. Mid-range and everything, but it's too big for wall mounted hi-fi cabinettes. The Kef has the right form factor but the 3000 Micro has more bang for the buck it seems. Thanks for sharing you experiences.

@@Underhills I don’t know. Maybe its my room. I’m using Elac Uni-Fi 2.0 UB52’s. The sub is off the floor about 6” (15 cm) and not in a cabinet. SVS says if I turned the sub any lower it would be off. Possibly I have a dunce unit. Maybe I’ll get SVS to look at it. When I was using studio monitors I had a Neumann KH 750 sub in this apartment and had excellent detail and bass clarity and when I cranked it up it sounded like live music here. A bass guitar sounded like a bass guitar. I would suggest trying the SVS Micro out before purchasing it if you can. As I mentioned I think this sub would be excellent for movies. For music it’s ok but not for me.

I still have 3 from Sunfire. HRS12. They put out serious sound. Still ideally a larger box would sound best but not everyone has the space or wants to look at a big sub.

@@thomasnew8606 I have a Sunfire HRS10 and it’s great for the size!

You're right, this would make a good replacement for my old Sunfire True Sub Mk ii when it finally goes. Which I think will be soon sadly; only worth repairing the electronics so many times. Even with movies I don't let it get much above mid-80 db's; trying to preserve my hearing and all that. :) I think this might do great for all the organ music I listen to (32', 16 Hz pipes). Better than the Sunfire. (though I have my eye on some Rythmik subs too).

My 4 True subs are still amazing, 20 years on!!!

Thanks. I didn't test that. I leave the deep dive to you. I would assume they would take advantage of the boundary gain in a corner. My guess is they only are tracking input signal to prevent over excursion and using the switches to adjust frequency response. Just a hunch.

@@joentell don’t you put that evil on me, Ricky Bobby.

Toss up

I think these are pretty amazing at a lower price www.amazon.com/dp/B0BBQ4JZS8/ref=cm_sw_r_as_gl_apa_gl_i_70B2MHRR4HAD93Q3TWQA?linkCode=ml1&tag=joentell-20 (Affiliate link) I talk about that sub in this review: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/r5t_aLWYyJatlIk.html I like it so much, I bought 2 more!

And with good reason. I still think it was misleading marketing

Hey what's up man. Thanks!

I use it all the time on the SVS if the system doesn't have any PEQ capabilities

John, I've never tested any REL before.

@@joentell No worries! Just know that if you did, your perspective would be the most Tell(ing) ; )

Yes. They sent me GAIA III's to check out and I'm a fan. Mostly because they're so stable on various surfaces. I didn't think much of them until I used some stands without them and I end up missing what they do. They almost act like suction cups on flat surfaces. I like that.

@@joentell ive heard nothing but good things. I didn't know if they benefits stands or are just for floor standers. Are they worth it? Looking forward to your review.

@@dajikbatarang1 I just put the feet that came with these ELAC Uni-Fi Reference and I'm seriously considering using the ISO Acoustic GAIA III's instead. The originals have spikes and just a tiny disk with an indent for the spike. One wrong move and the spike is touching the flooring.

I already see and appreciate KEF's engineering chops. The price reflects that too! 😉

I did a frequency response test of all the modes. I'm not sure how well the cabinet one works because I would assume the "correct" response would differ based on the cabinets. I wouldn't put much thought into it if you plan on using DSP. If not, then I would assume the modes help a bit. They weren't huge swings in frequency response, just minor tweaks. There's not a ton of modes, so I guess you could always just switch through them and see which you like best.

@@joentell Thanks Joe for the great video on the KC62 and the time you've taken for the reply. You're correct is guessing I'll be using a Mini-DSP to work the response as this sub will hopefully go in the cabinet behind the listener at the back of the room and fill a huge-20db drop between 40hz - 50hz at the main LP. Which the main front Rel can't fill given its own position within the room, so need a second sub to even the room response. This sub seems to be the right tool for the job given its size, power and dimension. Plus the anti resonance cabinet as a bonus. I am Looking forward to any follow up video of the KC and your future content. Many thanks for your time and advice take care.

I don't have those measurements, but the CEA 2010 measurements use THD as a threshold for whether a speaker can play certain frequencies. See if there are any CEA 2010 measurements for the subs you're interested in.

The subwoofer enclosure itself hardly vibrates, but that doesn't mean that the sound pressure from the sub won't make stuff in your place shake.

The Sunfire True Subwoofer came out in the mid 90's iirc.

Thanks for caring!

The KEF has 2 subs.

@@iWubmusic both have two subs.

Yeah. Seems like calibration would be inaccurate. I can’t see away around it.

Ah you answered at about 11:35 of the video

I haven't done it to see as to what extent it would interfere, but the change I see in the graphs suggest it could cause some issues.

I think that's a perfect match. Here's my review of the 3000 Micro. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qZtdi7qS1rHOZYE.html feel free to use my affiliate link if you decide to purchase them 👊😎

@@joentell Thanks for your prompt response! I am a little confused exactly how to integrate the sub with The Fives regarding the whole 80Hz high pass filter thing and am wondering how you did it. May I ask exactly how you connected the 3000 micro to The Fives? Did the cable go into the LFE input? Did you set low pass on the SVS and where at? Also, is it necessary to manually turn off the SVS upon turning off The Fives (or my tv which turns off The Fives)? Thank you

@@davidbowyer6840 just sub out from The Fives to LFE on the SVS. No need to mess with the crossover. The Fives automatically high pass 80hz and up and put those on the main speakers, 80hz and below goes to SVS.

I don't believe in fast/slow subs since a woofer playing a 120hz test tone is moving just as fast as any other woofer playing that tone. Most of what I think people are referring to is how a woofer might sound bloated/boomy in a room. Floyd Toole said something to the effect that what people are hearing is a fast woofer playing in a slow room. I agree with that. Also, many audio enthusiasts don't have enough experience with accurate/flat subsonic bass, and they tend to incorrectly associate bass extension with boominess, and they consider a speaker that doesn't have the capability to play those lower frequencies as "faster." If a sub can only play down to 30hz, sure that's a faster frequency than one that can play down to 18hz, but if the content is playing down to 18hz, I want to hear/feel that.

@@joentell Thanks for such a thoughtful response, Joe.. I am trying satellites that roll off at 80hz which are replacing full range speakers I've had forever...so I am missing some bottom end and don't want to diminish the greater articulation and coherence of the satellites....so I need small but want to get the job done correctly....so in that context it would seem your view is that the Kef would cover more of the spectrum but the blending at the handover level (I have a minidsp for that) is irrelevant. Is that correct? If so then you end up with the more subs the better?

@@joentell Actually, I believe it was Toole who once commented; "Yeah, the bass was so fast it got up and left the room before I could hear it."

I've heard them, but never reviewed them.

@@joentell Think it would be pretty cool, the 108dB model is quite something I'm sure they'd happily provide a pair. The little guy (reactor) is also unbelievable for its size

Amazing for its size indeed. But not the most refined sound...

Are you using DSP? A sub always interacts with the room and you need to compensate for that.

@@joentell i insider the pro1000 for the app I have the micro3000 and I like the app. I want more output but I don’t want the extra weight cause I use them for Playing live music at restaurants and I hate big subs because weight. I don’t use dsp but my audiophile curiosity makes me try different subs.

Yes. I mentioned that I wouldn't trust the data below 20hz, but it's good to get a general idea if anything is happening in those frequencies below 20hz.

@@joentell Ok, guess I missed that in all my excitement :D. Great review btw!

You didn't have to do that, but I am very appreciative that you did that. By the way, I just uploaded my KEF KC92 review, and I thought of you and made sure to talk about DSP! :-)

@@joentell Thank you so much, Joe.... I think I HAD to do that. I have stolen so much of your time and I also annoyed you.... only because of my carelessness and lack of concentration.... In addition: you were also right about my words being disrespectful in a certain way.... I am so sorry about that and I wish you all the best for yourself, your channel and your whole life..... Stay healthy, Joe..... 🙋👋 I'm now going to watch your brandnew video.... 🤗👍

Yes

That is correct.

That was the point I was making in the measurements section. It can play lower than you would expect at lower volume but it tapers off as you turn the volume up.

@@joentell yep I made the comment before I fully watched the video.. very clever marketing by kef and a great video by you.

@@scaf_007vs3 Thank you. I was afraid I wasn't clear in my explanation at first. 😉

Bro why are subs such comfortable foot rests. Lol. Lean my chair back, put feet on sub and I could watch movies or listen music for hours and even fall asleep 😂

I remember the Sunfire True Subwoofer with 3000 watts too. I was always skeptical about their claims and I was skeptical about this KEF too. Glad I got to experience it for myself to gain perspective.

This KEF is way different

@@Dvw87I'm not sure I understand your reply. Are you suggesting that it is easier to integrate a sub with only a two position switch? By turning a continuously variable phase control fully one way or the other you can mimic a two position switch. A sub with a variable phase control just gives you an extra level of precision. Parametric EQ can be very useful for helping to tame room modes but should be used with a gentle touch.

And how to do that? How to figure out Phase setting to set?.

@@TRX25EX when the speakers and the sub are in phase at the listening position their waveforms will add together. Notes at the crossover frequency will be loudest when they are in phase. It's an interactive process where adjustments are made to the cutoff frequency, level and phase until the smoothest integration is achieved.

@@nathanevans6277 So Basically I go into KZfaq Hz video, I play 120hz tone and adjust phase at it's loudest?

@@TRX25EX that's a good starting point. Then make small changes to each of the controls whilst playing familiar music until you get the most seamless integration between sub and mains. Only adjust one control at a time. If you do two at once it gets confusing. Once set record the settings, say with a photograph, live with those settings for a while to see if anything doesn't seem quite right. If, for instance, there seems to be a dip at the crossover frequency turn the crossover point up a smidgen. Make small changes. Then record the new best. Compare the old best with the new best. If the new best and the old best are the same setting then you know that you have the optimum setup.

yep, i still have a Sunfire True Sub Mk ii, 11" cube, 2700 watts, (2) 8" drivers (one passive) circa 2000-2001. goes down well to 17-18 Hz, but not as refined as today's subs. problem is the power supplies on these things tend to fry caps regularly. :)

Depends on the thickness. It could just be the magnet on the drivers for all I know.

I actually meant to say 75dB but didn't catch it till it was already posted. On Denon and Marantz, I know they calibrate the subs using a 75dB level. I misspoke because I do my REW measurements using 85dB.

@@joentell I wouldn’t worry about it that much, this was the best technical review of these subwoofers I’ve seen, exactly what I was looking for. Keep up the great content

I'm a Leica fan and when I went to the store, I picked up 2 t-shirts. I didn't really look at the price, not sure they had tags. When I walked out and looked at my receipt my total was about $100! Even their shirts are expensive! 🤣

The answer is that everything has a tradeoff, including the size of the subwoofer you are using, the location you are placing it, etc. So, if it's in a cabinet or _nothing,_ then sure it is better, especially if you can do room correction. You could do that for either of these.

Appreciate your response@@luke9822

"Fast bass" is a misconception that goes around. 200hz means the woofer has to move at the speed of 200 cycles per second. It doesn't matter if the woofer is 6.5" or 18". A woofer that can play a faster 200hz tone can also play a slower 100hz tone. A faster 20hz tone would no longer be a 20hz tone, it would be a higher frequency. If you're talking about damping factor, that's related to the amplifier's ability to control the inertia of the driver's movements. I think when people use the terms fast bass, I think they're intending to describe either lack of audible distortion, an accurate frequency response of a woofer, or both.

@@joentell No misconception there, when I say precision i mean it. Fast inertia, fast stop - so yes, partially damping factor of the amp. Also power, bc bigger mass needs a lot more power to get a fast inertia. This is why smaller speakers are generally faster.

@@JBrm Smaller drivers are typically better for playing "faster" higher frequencies, but right now, we're talking about how good they are at playing "slower" lower frequencies and whether they start/stop faster than larger woofers at those lower frequencies. Bigger woofers are typically higher sensitivity, meaning they're easier to drive with the same amount of power. The other thing to consider is that a large cone has to move much less to move the same amount of air as a small cone. So, yes, I do believe it's a misconception. If you have a 6.5" woofer that is 83dB sensitivity, and a 15" woofer with 90dB sensitivity, and you need them both to hit 40hz at 90dB, you're telling me that with the same amplifier, the 6.5" will start and stop (return to its resting position) faster? I know which would likely have more distortion. If you notice, there's a direct correlation between a a speaker with small woofers tuned to low bass extension and low sensitivity. It's typically the larger speakers that have high sensitivity.

@@joentell yes, smaller speakers need to "swing" further to move the same amount of air (lower sensitivity) - and I agree with most things you wrote in your last post. Also, smaller cones will have physical limits (distortion, volume) when it comes to very low frequencies, as they simply lack surface area to create an accurate waveshape. What I mean with fast bass is the ability of the electromechanic control system to follow the electric signal without overshoot or being too slow. It all comes down to the design of the circuit, but in general a bigger mass needs more physical force for the same movement. This is where the inability of bigger speakers to play higher frequencies comes from - and also why its easier to achieve a high stiffness (low distortion) control loop with lighter (smaller) cones.

@@joentell I forgot who said it, but I love the following quote from a bass expert responding to somebody who said the same thing about smaller bass drivers;, "Yeah, the bass was so fast, it got up and left the room before I could hear it."

CEA 2010 is the standard way of measuring subwoofers based on SPL at certain frequencies before they hit a threshold of distortion. This would show that there are any laws of physics being broken by the KEF or SVS. The driver in our headphones can also hit 11hz, at extremely low volume and right next to our ears! 🤣

Not sure how you could come to this conclusion without proper measurements. Just based on size alone, the KEFs smaller drivers will have higher distortion numbers are moderate to high spl levels.

@@RehashedZeal I'm really curious what the distortion figures are for the KEF at 18Hz compared to the SVS and wonder if that's actually contributing to the higher SPLs measurements at those frequencies. It's just hard to understand how two 6.5" drivers could output lower than two 8" drivers.

@@yelnatsch517 It‘s the TSP (purpuse of the driver): There are more 12“ Subwofer drivers reach subsonic frequencies than 18“ (because the purpose of 12“ drivers is mostly for home-hifi-Subwoofer enclosures. 18“ for hifi subs is not often requested from customers. The 18“ usually are designed for PA-Subwoofers. Subsonic is traded for max LSP). Low SD is depending on membrane weight and how stiff it‘s mounted in the gasket in relation of the air-weight/volume behind the driver (mass/feather correlation). Additionally there is the DSP target courve. As discussed: Distortion comes up earlier with smaller drivers, than bigger ones at a named (subsonic) frequency.