Yep it's a concerning shift in my opinion.

I am sure it's a phase (or at least i hope) back in the NES era there was a time frame where every single game genre had to have RPG elements, then overtime that slowed down, i think it's the same thing today with roguelike elements and every metroidvania trying to be the next hollow knight It also can be that the games that don't follow current trends are simply hard to discover, they go under the radar or don't get the mainstream attention that they deserve, there's a bunch of those out there but it's hard to even run into them in a sea of games

I cannot agree so much. To me this game gets a 95/100, and just because the final boss, was kind of disappointing, I looks cool, but I just hate I cannot just attack and backflip, and have to keep waiting until there is a chance to attack, so this is the reason it gets 5 points less from my score, appart from this, the game is almoust perfect. Incredible graphics and is has smooths movements from he characters and backgrounds, so muchd detail. The music is very good, I didnt liked all tracks but after replying the game and playing the game over and over, now I like most of them. The controls are perfect, they got the basic moves, the have old moves back like throwing the foot soldiers to the screen, and the new movements, now the backflip is an scape button and you can counter attack after using it, the upercut, and the specials, you can do crazy long combos. They nailed the controls. Also the difficulty is nice, if you put it in hard is not as easy, and it is not unfair, you just have to get better at the game. And after completing the thropies/challenges/collectables, etc. What is left is to come back over and over, just like an old arcade. If you have the switch version this is the best, you have maybe to ride on an airplane, waiting outside the dentist, just play some ninja turtles at this moment. Now this game is a classic.

Surprised he didn’t respond to you

​@@Mister_Dommi don't think he likes it, he didn't even do a 1 year later like he did for Streets of rage 4

yep it's pretty clear that they took a lot of inspriation from streets 4. I think they leaned too heavily into the toolbelt attack design though, where each attack has it's "purpose" and so the game is sort of built around matching your rock up to the enemies scissors.

@@TheElectricUnderground I mean a number of those (and some of he enemies) basically look ripped out of SoR1. But yeah as far as your "tool belt critique," I feel like modem games get so carefully and thoughtfully designed that it can feel a little sterile and boring. Nothing is an unplayable mess in the same way you used to see, but the potential for novelty, surprise, or unintended interactions that turn out interesting is much less.

Yes I agree and I've had so many conversations about this with devs over the years, begging them, PLEASE, no more inertia, please ha.

Nah, plenty of old games have tons of inertia. A prominent example being the Super Mario Brothers series. Recently there has been a fantastic podcast series called "Into the Depths: Super Mario World" where they invited a bunch of platformer game designers to discuss SMW. They discussed this subject among many others. Nice and nuanced discussion. Highly recommended.

I think the inertia is a symptom of the devs being big Kunio-kun fans, as evidenced by their last beat 'em up, Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, which was a big sloppy (in more ways than one) love letter to River City Ransom and all its assorted siblings.

Sor4 has a lot more frames of animation than Shredder's Revenge and is still super tight. The devs of that game simply had a much better grasp on fundamental concepts like frame data and animation cancelling. Or maybe the Shredder's Revenge devs just didn't care all that much. Overall SR reminds me an awful lot of River City Girls (more so than Scott Pilgrim thank goodness. Hate that game) The gameplay is reasonably entertaining but what you're really here for is the presentation. It's a little unfortunate then that SoR4 - for me at least - easily wins on that front as well. What a stunning game that one.

@@JustFun-ho6qy SOR4 knew where to put more frames of animation and where not to.

Honestly, you may wanna try SoR4. On the harder difficulties there are MOBS of enemies moving very fast. At times it almost feels more like a fighter since you can juggle enemies against the walls which is a great modern improvement--knocking enemies off screen and sitting around waiting for them to come back on screen was rough on old beat 'em ups but SoR4 fixed this.

Is it weird that I always look for "mechanics to wreck enemies" in any turn based rpg?

Fight'n Rage turbo mode is what you're looking for, there's even a review on this channel to give you more information about it

Hell yes! Glad we are of one mind here, wouldn't expect less from a fellow Ninja Gaiden fan XD One beat em up that defintely scratches that fast fluid combat itch is Fight N' Rage (my fav), so def check that out when you feel the scratch :-)

I know Mark shills it a lot, Junkie, but it sounds to me like you're craving Fight 'n' Rage. That game is all about being fast, masterful and dominating the opponents before they can do anything. You really cannot mash in Fight 'n' Rage, not unless you are bringing a bunch of friends or AI as a crutch.

Thank you my dude! Yeah in order to dig into this stuff there is a certain level of gameplay literacy required! I am also looking forward to the collection, fingers crossed it s not full of input lag

Yeah branching paths would have been better :-)

That s great! I do hope my reviews are set apart in that regard as most game reviews are shockingly devoid of actually talking about the gameplay mechanics. Honestly I m not sure why other than most reviewers like to follow along with each other s opinions. Like in this games case, I don't think you will find other reviewers saying it s anything of a Masterpiece

Agreed on all of this. I feel like this video mostly refuses to engage with the game on its own terms and fundamentally misunderstands how free-form the game actually is. It sees all the mechanics in play, but only ever in the context of "is this like the beat 'em ups I like" rather than in the context of forming their own coherent whole. There's tons of room for player expression in this game, but you can't just ignore half the mechanics and then claim it's constricting when you have trouble.

Oh great comment my dude!! So I do recognize that the game has options like this, with the dodge and the supers and such. But I don't particularly like this style of gameplay where the game nerfs your movement and grabs in favor of these command dodges and supers. What I think happened is that the devs really really wanted you to play in the manner you describe (lots of command input and specials) so they made all the bosses and enemies force you into this style of gameplay. Sifu is the exact same way. I think some players will find this fun, but I just don't think it holds up in the long run the same way. I m going to make a video about this idea in the future, but it s changing the genre into plug and play like pokemon, rather than a joust of hitboxes

@@sethsez hi Seth check out my reply below. I think it will help clarify where I am coming from

@@TheElectricUnderground I guess I just fundamentally disagree that the gameplay here is plug-and-play, or that classic beat 'em ups were ever just hitbox jousting. Any beat 'em up worth its salt always had elements punishing certain moves or encouraging certain approaches, including Turtles in Time itself, and this doesn't feel any harsher or more restrictive on that front to me, but it does expect you to use the full toolbox at various points, just like Turtles in Time did. You couldn't play that game while ignoring jumps or grabs and you'd have a miserable experience trying, and this is the same with the addition of dodging. I suppose my issue is that you keep saying the game requires a single play style to proceed, and I don't think that's accurate. It does discourage ignoring chunks of its gameplay, and grabs are certainly less powerful than they were in Turtles in Time (although grabs were absurdly overpowered in that game compared to just about anything else in the genre), but within that restriction there's still plenty of room to tackle encounters from a variety of different approaches (frequently including hitbox jousting). That said, one thing I'll absolutely agree on is the game's size. I have no problem with it for story mode, but I really wish arcade mode was eight stages with branching paths. The damn thing's too long for one sitting, even though that's actually not terribly unusual for home-based beat 'em ups, even in the classic era.

The overall experience for me is: the game is very frustrating to play, unsatisfying and hard to enjoy. I've been waiting for it since it was announced and I really wanted to like it. The fighting lacks flow, feels sluggish, slow and much more. April is best "turtle" they designed her faster and stronger 🙈. In conclusion for some ninjas they feel really slow and sluggish to me. Perhaps they should have also renamed it RTMT (Retired turtles).I completely agree with the point pressing in this video. Yes, they tried a different approach but that makes it harder to enjoy. Level design is also bad, some boss fights are ridiculous and most levels are quite boring, hence, little replayability

Thanks so much my dude! Honesty and in depth coverage is the goal of the channel. Yeah the hype waves for these types of things can be overwhelming

Ha I k glad you liked it! It s my fav intro on the channel so far :-)

Ha yes the intro popped into my mind as I was literally reading the ign review XD

But you are right about the enemie design, boss fights and quality in the first half being better

Yes extactly! I'm going to do a topic vid on the subject and call it "toolbelt" design. Because that's what it basically is. Everything becomes a "tool" and the game design is plug and play. X beats Y, Y beats Z, Z beats, X. BUT NEVER try to use X against Z, not allowed! It's like pokemon ha

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, I never cared for the paper/scissor/rock style of balance, because it just makes gameplay too formulaic. It's usually more interesting to have situational based mechanics, with just enough wiggle room that you could get away with doing ridiculous stuff in those rare instances where you timed it right.

I can give you one example, there's this indie game studio that i know , which is obsessed with Zelda. You can tell they don't play any other games that are not "the big thing right now" so when they talk about classic it's always Zelda or really obvious picks. So, in the games they make they copy paste stuff from Zelda directly even if it makes no sense. For example: They have this 2D platformer game, the main character has a sword and it's mostly focused towards platforming and finding a switch to spend doors like Zelda. BUT, you know how in Ocarina of Time if you fall from a relatively high height your character Rolls forward automatically? Well, they added that to their 2D platformer just because it's from Zelda. So when i was testing the game, i jumped off from a high platform in a "Jump of faith" kind of situation, when i landed i actually landed on the ground, and right in front of the ground there was a pit with spikes. So when i landed, the character automatically rolled forward and fell into the spikes, nothing you could do about it. For them the rolling forward thing is just for show but it actually severely impacts gameplay itself, and that's just one of many examples.

@@TheElectricUnderground , and speaking of tools...

The rolling forwards sounds like Donkey Kong 94. One of the few flaws with that fantastic game.

I think the confusion here is that you think I don t like the combat because I don't understand it. That s not the case. I do understand the combat and how the dev wants you to use dodgeroll, uppercut, and super all the time. My point is that I don't like this style of combat design (sifu does the same thing) because it takes away from natural fundimentals to emphasize special attacks all the time. It s possible to understand a combat system and still dislike it s design :-)

@@TheElectricUnderground edit: Sorry, to be clear, I'm not trying to convince you to like the game. I understand the distaste for this style of combat and that after the time you have played you do not wish to play any further. As I mentioned, it is not my favorite either. However, from the perspective of understanding design, I believe it is important to take into consideration the full spectrum of mechanics, and while in general your review has done a good job of this, I think the response to the enemy design in particular reflects your comments about neglecting the backflip and slide move and finding those useless. So it is of course still a matter of taste whether the enemies are enjoyable or not to interact with, but to simply say that armor slows down the pace and generalize as hit-and-run is more just an observation that you can still survive without using the techniques that the game would like you to use (when facing armor, backflip out of a combo through the enemy for rear position). For me this particular failing of the game is in bottlenecking the player to force them into using these techniques or in having an abstract layer (scoring/timing) for using them correctly. The enemy design itself makes perfect sense and is well-fitting for the full set of combat abilities in the game.

Thank you my dude!!! I m a big beat em up fan (was my fav genre for years) so I wanted to try and analyze the gameplay for my fellow players :-)

Ok here is the info! 1. yep you have a literal dp anti-air, you press attack and jump at the same time. You will use this often and honestly the game really like this move because you can also use it to launch. The game wants to be dmc at times ha. 2. sadly no fun turn around string cancels or guard cancels. You can cancel out of attacks pretty easily with jumps and dashes and what not, but really it actually doesn't matter because the enemies have armor anyway. So the strat is often get 3 hits in, and then dash or jump away. No fun stun locks or anything. 3. no crowd control in this game. Your throw is hella weak. Your best option is to dash around and hit and run people. no streets of rage style throw setups and what not.

@@TheElectricUnderground Thanks for the detailed answers Mark. I doubt it'll be on the level of Jitsu Squad, Fight'nRage or SOR4, but I kinda get where they were going with the DMC-lite in 2D thing. Check out Sinoc's new game as well, that one is going to really wow you Slave Zero X.

@@dr_ubo OH thanks for the heads up! Gotta check it out!

So your not wrong about this and so I'll try to clarify what I mean exactly. Yes the game def gives you "tools" to deal with all of the things the game throws at you. Hell you have one mighty sludgehammer (the super) that solves everything. So what my critique is more addressing is how the game limits you from engaging in the base combat. So in a traditional beat em up, they are not built around this modern toolbelt combat design where this option beats this option that beats this option, like rock paper scissors. Instead, in old school beat em ups you and your enemy have these hitboxes and you are jousting with each other to ram your hitbox into their hurtbox without taking damage. Maybe I should make a topic video on this because once the distinction is made clear many of my reviews will probably come more into focus.

@@TheElectricUnderground you should make that video yes. What you write here did not come through in your video at all if you ask me.

@@TheElectricUnderground I’m in my mid 30’s and while I love the classics I think I’d be a bit disappointed if it was just a cut-copy of the combat we have had in the older games for years already. I don’t mind having to approach some enemies differently than just hitting x on them all or optimally throwing every single enemy. I’m not saying your criticism is not valid as I see your point and understand where you are coming from - just that I don’t agree personally and maybe it comes down to what people expect from it. Im sure a lot of people were expecting turtles in time 2 with how they marketed it. It’s no fight n rage but it’s a fun casual romp especially in co-op.

​@@P1EXi am much older than you but while i loved playing this game I am a little disappointed that it doesn't offer more in terms of replayability. More or different moves is one of the ways to do that. Or why not offer the exact same moves and controls of the original as an alternative configuration? Once you get past the nostalgia there should be more.

I will never stop calling him Ralph ha, it s a nickname. I can t give a fictional character a nickname?

Hi great question! I do think that the issues could absolutely be solved with patches, but some pretty hefty ones ha. I don't think they will be though, because I don't think the devs necessarily want more fundamental combat. The will likely patch the super taunt spam though ha.

I think the way the designed the game is very western. Where, instead of looking to challenge the power of the run via enemies or level design, they just add this nerf to it. Personally I cannot say that I am a fan of this design strategy and I think it is how we end up with how modern western gaming works. Keep it slow and basically turn every mechanic into a "tool." Where each option has a counter-option like in pokemon or something ha. I like the old school arcade design where they either remove the mechanic or let it rock, rather than having this odd in-between

Having listened the entire review, I would agree that the game definitely wants the players in more considerate mode and not going all in turbo mode. I would not hold it against it though. Although I did not like how punishing it could be to have to commit to each and every action so much, I feel it does its own thing, it sticks to it and does not do it bad at all. It definitely is targetted more towards casual audience, as you stated, and thus these decisions the design team took feel actually premeditated and in place in this game.

We are thinking along the same line because I am going to do a topic video on this very subject! I am going to call it "toolbelt combat design", so be sure to keep an eye out for it :-)

Oh I m really happy you brought up steel assault. I love that game! At first I was confused if the steel assault team worked on this game, but they did not (which makes sense). Yes I really really liked steel assaults levels and didn't have a problem with it s hour long length, but a ton of people on steam were mad apparently. But what about MegaMan games then? Why is it a rule games must be 2 hours plus, not a great trend

"longer is always better" is something I less appreciate as I discover more game.

Well to be honest, I feel like the longer is better argument is more for levels than games themselves. With long levels, you have to commit to them for 10 minutes to an hour, and games like those get insanely tedious for me, especially when they put useless side content in the levels on TOP of that length. With a game like this on the other hand, it has short and plentiful levels which allows you to take a break and jump back in when you feel like it. For that reason, I feel they hit a sweetspot in this game. Not to mention the multiplayer being polish here helps.

Ha the line between parody and sincerity these days is razer thin XD

Try Jitsu Squad and be on the lookout for Vendetta!

I do talk about that at the end of the review, where the game is perfectly fine if you are looking for a more slow paced casual sort of experience. I really think this is what the game is going for explicitly. However the electric underground is all about the hardcore, this is why the channel exists ha, so my reviews are going to be coming from this perspective. :-)

@@dr_ubo Yes. I'm getting the physical of Vendetta when I can get my hands on it. Never heard of the other one though.

@@dr_ubo I think Jitsu squad gameplay and mechanics is much better than TMNT

I'm with you.

Yeah dash attack is hella good ha. I am open to adjustments to the core combat style of time (some one please make an enhanced romhack), but I don't like this special attack and dodge roll focused approach to shredders though. Hiest is really cool!

I m really glad you appreciate the talk of mechanics here on the channel!! :-)

I know right, it's kind of amazing how little they actually talk about the gameplay. The spend more time talking about IPs and that sort of thing.

They can't talk about it because they don't understand it

Sengoku 3 is top tier

Not yet, but it is on the list for me to cover (along with armored warriors and punisher)

@@TheElectricUnderground punisher is quite easy. I remember finishing 1cc, altough most of the Times i would reach only kingpin.. You have to manage well the grapple system for croud Control and also have to exploit the armorrd bosses with specials, since their attacks only Lady a few seconds.

The line between sincerity and parody on KZfaq is razer thin ha. I had to be extra creepy just to make sure people picked up that I was kidding XD yeah older Konami beat em ups are a bit jank, but I love the ones they put out on the SNES! It s not nearly as popular, but batman returns is an absolute gem and I have a mania mode clear with commentary kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Y9eaaKug1treqZs.html

@@TheElectricUnderground I completely missed Batman Returns for Snes (its crazy all of them were completely different games depending on the platform) had i known it was a Konami game i would have tried it out at the time. Now after seeing a bit of your playthrough i immediately got the style and strategy and was interested, so i will definitely be playing that.

Yes exactly!!

Ha glad you enjoyed it!!

Awesome comment Chris! Yes this is exactly my experience, after the novelty of the game wears off the flaws in the gameplay design are too heft to ignore. Like you say, the artist of the game is hard carrying it right into these high review scores ha.

I agree with the default character of 4 needing running and rolling for sure, that is one cool thing about the old characters within rage 4 I'd say, they can run and roll but don't have the op specials and stuff

🤣🤣🤣 sounds like a modern gamer. I'm always shocked that many classic NES or SNES games are only 30mins to 1hr of game play when you see some long-play. And I'm there going "Lies all lies" I'm sure the game was way longer 🤣🤣🤣🤣

@@Mark-nh2hs Yeap, they were indeed short, but pretty hard.

@@benjaminbeltran7004 my god defo hard 🤣🤣 many I couldn't complete. When I watched a Megaman 2 playthrough I was going now way is that level that short get out of here..... Half the time I couldn't get of screen 2 🤣🤣🤣

Ha that s great. Make it an RPG with forced cutscenes too

@@TheElectricUnderground 🤣🤣🤣🤣👍

Yes, based on your description, I think you would fall into the target demographic of the game, and I think it s good on the grounds of casually playing along and taking your time with it. The real question is if you will play through the game over and over, or just a few times. Because, casually speaking, I m still fairly confident that the SNES turtles in time is still a better causal experience because it has a more polished design. So I say play the two back to back and see which you like more :-)

Well to soften the blow a little, I think when outlets are saying it's basically better than some of the best beat em ups of all time, that is a very high hurdle to clear. I think it's a solid game and a solid effort, so I think it's worth a casual playthrough. Just don't expect to have the juicy delicious combat of other games like SOR4, Fight N' Rage, or the OG turtles in time.

I do really like that graphics and presentation a lot, they were on point with that for sure. I guess because the game is being so widely praised on these aspects I didn't feel a huge need to dig into them when I felt there was a lot to discuss game play wise. I do agree though the game looks great visually, the artist is hard carrying the team ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground gameplay is king!

Yeah I thought they made steel assault as well, but they just published that too ha. Gotta start snooping through the credentials these days, it s confusing!

My very short impromptu review of Tropical Freeze is that it is a massive downgrade to the OG Donkey Kong Country games ha. I have a no death playthrough of DKC1 sitting on my hard drive that I need to do a commentary vid on. But yeah, I got tropical freeze years ago and played it about an hour before moving on.

@@TheElectricUnderground Awesome thanks man, I feel less crazy now (considering the massive amount of praise TP gets). I bought it for Switch years ago now, so I'll probably finish it, but yeah, just have to lower my expectations. And yes, please do post some DKC1 content, that'd be rad! 🤙

Yeah 1.0 Streets of rage was pretty solid (blaze saved it), but the game def improved with patches ha. Yes R-Type Final Review vibes are strong on this one ha. Though I do like shredder more than final 2

What's funny is that even though they are from the same publisher, how the games are made and their design approach are very different. I'd say streets 4 is more of a meshing of the franchise with some added elements, whereas shredder is a rewrite of the gameplay with surface similarities.

excellent analogy! That is exactly right ha. This really is the brawl version of Turtles in time. That's great ha. Even stuff like the nerfed movement and inertia matches up XD

@@TheElectricUnderground Imagine if someone did a project m like mode or arrange to fix all the issues. Wont happen but one can dream, right?

I know and what's gotten under my skin a bit is that all of these interviews and reviews talking the game up keep thumbing their nose at turtles in time, like it's an outdated POS or something. There's an interview with the dev where he says as much: www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2022-06-16/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-shredders-revenge-is-more-than-just-retro-cool

Thanks my dude!!! :-)

@@TheElectricUnderground After playing the game through, I can say you are 100% vindicated. The game controls like ass for a 'fast' beat 'em up. It ONLY works if you play it the way they intended you to play. The controls aren't tight. How you make a 'faster' beat 'em up than SoR4 but instead implement slippery/delayed controls is a mystery to me. This was either deliberately designed badly or made by someone who legitimately does not play fighting games/beat 'em ups. I'll just go through my list of how and why things are awful in this game: Taunting for specials. This is an easy one. Very abusable . The grabs. Oh my god the grabs in this game are AWFUL. As you said: there's no invulnerability frames. This is a sin in fighting games and beat 'em ups as far as I'm concerned. The entire appeal of grapplers in most fighting games in being able to have invuln frames on your grabs. That's what makes them good up close. That's why they are threatening: because if they grab you, they will win neutral. This is what makes tick-throws in fighting games so dangerous. If you wanna know why Mike Haggar or Max from SoR2 are so popular, the invulnerability frames during grabs/throws is partly why. But on top of that: the throws DON'T EVEN DO DAMAGE! Raphael's german suplex DOES NOT ONE-SHOT THE EASIEST ENEMIES ON NORMAL DIFFICULTY. This is insane, because his throw is easily one of the longest in the game. Why? He can one shot with his dash attack, but not is throw. Who made this game? I am genuinely laughing trying to understand how anyone thought this was good design. Throws are pretty much useless. And when you add in a lot of enemies that can't be grabbed, I honestly don't even know why throwing is a part of the game. There is not a single instance in the game where I wanted to throw an enemy. This is a beat 'em up. How? HOW!? AUTO-AIM IN A BEAT 'EM UP. Yes, this beat 'em up has AUTO-AIM. I thought maybe it only applied to dodge-attacks (circle+square), but it actually applies to ALL ATTACKS. Even your bread and butter four-hit combo has auto-aim. Your character, if you look closely, will literally slide along the ground to center himself in front of the closest enemy in the middle of of your four-hit string. If that means you slide into a pit -- well, congratulations, I guess. Even your slide and dash attacks will home in on enemies. I had a situation where I did a slide attack against a distant enemy, but because an enemy I was not lined up with was TECHNICALLY CLOSER, I slid down along the y-axis and slid between the two enemies and hit neither. Dashing in general only works if you are going for a slide attack or dash attack. This is not a game where you dash. You are a mounted knight. You JOUST enemies. You dash into a slide attack or a dash attack. That is it. If you try to pull out of a dash you started, you are getting a super awkward Flintstones-style running in place delay. If you go for a normal attack, you will instead get the dash attack -- you have to STOP your dash first...which leads into the Flintstones-style slip and slide. Dashing exists SOLELY for the dash attack or slide attack -- both of which can only be executed from dashing. Dashing is not in the game for actual movement. Especially since, as you pointed out, you can't really move up and down on the y-axis while dashing. Speaking of dash attacks, I can see what you mean by the ridiculous inertia. It is comical how far forward your character slides with his dash attacks. Even if you do a micro-dash into a dash attack (dash for a split second and cancel into the dash attack), your character will slide across half the screen. If you want a good laugh, do this with splinter. I could not stop laughing seeing him do his dash attack but still slide forward like 15 feet after the attack was clearly done. The combo system in general for this game is extremely rigid. The game expects and is designed around you performing moves in a certain order. If you don't: you are going to be at a severe frame disadvantage/delay (AKA you are open to attacks). I'll give you examples: The four hit combo. The last hit of your combo has a lot of delay. It's unsafe on hit. You are open to attacks. You are stuck in place for far too long. You can't move for a long period of time after performing it (trying to explain it clearly for anyone else reading this). However, you can cancel your fourth hit into your rising attack (jump+attack) and be safer. You can also cancel the fourth hit into a dash or slide attack. It's extremely rigid. Four hit combo -> Normal movement? NO Four Hit combo -> Dash attack? OKAY/SAFE Dashing is the same way. Dashing for movement? NO Dash -> Dash Attack/Slide attack? YES. SAFE. Hell, even Dash and slide attacks are the same way. If you aren't going into your normal four-hit combo after your dashing/slide attacks, you are going to be open to punishment. There's a lot more that could be said about this game -- the super-armor enemies are a pain in the ass for characters not named Raphael. The bosses aren't fun to fight and, as you said, basically feel like they were designed to have specials thrown in their face. I dunno. I'll play it for a bit more because I enjoy beat 'em ups but playing as characters asides Raphael feels like the suffering. His high damage and speed make the game bearable. I tried leonardo, but his signature spinning aerial attack has so much recovery on it, it's abysmal. And unlike everything else in the game, you can't cancel the recovery frames of his spinning sword attack into a different attack or even the dodge roll.

Thanks so much! Yeah the super and dodge spam aspects of the combat definitely start to wear in the back half of the game

Nah, Raph and Donnie have a lot of differences that distinguish them from their brothers. Someone actually did the research and figured out all of the different mechanics that each of the turtles have: preview.redd.it/cidch9lnzf691.png?width=1534&format=png&auto=webp&s=c10ca21b0f23ff5c7ff955ee79786d9d0111acdf

I need to try it, I do love treasure. They can get kinda crazy with some games, but i d love to give it a try soon

Yeah it’s crazy

Yes final vendetta coming soon! I don't think I'll review yurukill because it has all these story and puzzle elements ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground fair play... though the shmup sections can be played as it's own game.... just thought it'd be interesting to get your take on what is essentially a stealth release of a new G.Rev shmup, wrapped in a visual novel... but i'll take a Final Vendetta review! EDIT: They are also doing a high score competiton with the demo, if you get a high score you can win the game! I know you are a more of survival guy though :) twitter.com/NISAmerica/status/1534241281278242816

Hey my dude, thanks for the awesome comment. So this review is going to be a bit of a dividing line when it comes to taste because there is a very clear shift in how the combat is designed, and you may or may not like this shift. I personally don't hence why I'm pointing out all the places that I ram my head up against the design. Maybe a useful way to understand is that I'm not critiquing the game from lacking "tools." The game has plenty of tools like you say the charge attacks and such. Hell, the game has one mighty tool that overcomes all in the form the super you can charge constantly, so it's not a question of not having an option. What I am critiqueing is what the game does NOT allow, which is the more traditional style of japanese beat em up combat. In most beat em up games, there is no toolbelt like you see in this game. You're not playing rock paper scissors with the enemies like it's pokemon. Instead, you have your hitbox, the enemies have theirs, and you are jousting with eachother via positioning and movement and you are flowing together your attacks in these beautiful combo strings. This game shuts this style of gameplay down completely, which I think is a shame considering it is the hallmark of konami style beat em ups.

They marketed the game as Turtles in Time +, it's a perfectly reasonable comparison. I think it's false advertising and will be going with the standard release instead of the bigger version I was planning on.

@@TheElectricUnderground thanks for the response! I appreciate where you’re coming from and from that perspective I totally understand what you mean. Can’t wait for your next great video!

people are recommending it so I'm very tempted to!

@@TheElectricUnderground Excellent; will keep my eyes peeled for your take... It's a tough 1CC game (!)

I agree with this analysis exactly. 10 stages would have been a lot better, and they could lengthen the stages a little. 16 short stages is just odd. I remember getting the mania+ clear in streets 4 and each attempt was 2 hours long, brutal ha. The game was fun enough to justify but even there I wish they trimmed some levels

Yes for sure, the devs really want you to use that dodge roll like it's dark souls ha. The reason I'm not a fan of it so much as the gameplay feels very simon says rather than placing more emphasis on positioning and such.

I feel like a lot of games are going that route these days. I felt like Elden Ring and Monster Hunter Rise did the same, where positioning isn't as useful as it used to be in older games. They want you to use s and such instead.

@@TheElectricUnderground like other dude said in other comment, give rabi ribi a try its all about positioning as there is no dodge button, a lot like a shmup without all the newage darksouls BS, you just have to look past the cutesy art but it seriously puts most games to shame in boss design

I wish I made this a bit more clear in my review, it's not that I don't understand that the game wants you to dodge roll the armored enemies (hell you can just super them with the taunt exploit), what I'm trying to explain more in the review is that the game's combat is very pointedly designed to force you into this style of play. It is the "correct" way to play and I think that's not the best combat design. Sifu does the same thing. Simon says combat the makes sure to nerf alternative options to force you to use this lame dodge roll all day.

I am glad you brought this up! Yes this is the underlying problem we are going to keep running into it seems. The thing about dark souls is that it is an action RPG so many of it s combat mechanics are made to approximate turn based combat, which makes sense in an RPG. In an arcade action game however, these are an awkward fit and slow down the gameplay for no reason ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground "The thing about dark souls is that it is an action RPG so many of it s combat mechanics are made to approximate turn based combat" That's... certainly a claim.

@@TheElectricUnderground I wouldn't necessarily say its to approximate but definitely create a nice middle ground for people who don't normally get into action games proper like bayonetta. Which ultimately leads to this issue were we kinda are regressing on pure action combat because players think you need gating mechanics like stamina bars which limit the moves you use when all you really need is proper frame data. I like a lot of action rpgs but man I love character action games more and we solved this problem ages ago!

Hey thanks so much! I'm really glad you enjoyed the review, I do think people get caught up in these big internet hype waves too much ha.

Yeah, he somehow missed the core mechanic

Yeah if streets 4 turned you off, steer clear on this one ha

So i didn't bring it up in the review mingo, but there is a very ILLUMINATING interview with the devs on how they designed the game and they basically think that the old school design is outdated and their great new modern design is the bees knees. www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2022-06-16/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-shredders-revenge-is-more-than-just-retro-cool

@@TheElectricUnderground aside from game length and some level design they just mostly have to fix inertia when running, start up times and cool downs. They could change it, I remember sor4 released and the day dudes who breath fire had super armor and in an update they took away their armor and fixed axel’s speed and stuff. So maybe they’ll make it better? Still sucks that they have to “fix it later” but this is 2022 and no one can just release it good. But nobody is complaining other than a small portion of people so who knows

Yeah I heard that arcade mode runs get absolutely silly with stuff like this

@@TheElectricUnderground That's true too but I meant the actual arcade boss within the game that shredder summons, Tempestra. On Gnarly difficulty she's the most egregious. You so much as touch her with damage she phases out and spawns the Burping Wolf and Armored Turtle. Which basically as you said rewards the player for taunting to fill meter and spending supers to damage her rather than basic combos... I loved the game as we were playing it but now after beating the story on Gnarly and doing a full clear of arcade I can see ALL of the shortcomings. The other biggest thing missing from the Snes Turtles is the ability to combo your basic attacks into throws by holding up or down. Unless that was a thing in Fight N Rage and I can't remember the Snes version as well as I thought.

Not that I'm aware of, but I didn't check this time around.

that would be awesome, i'd def check that out ha

A little bit! I talk about it a bit in an upcoming video :-)

@@TheElectricUnderground cool, looking forward to it! Really enjoying your videos, keep up the great work!

Oh that s awesome!!! I d love to play that at some point. I m not that great at pinball (funny enough) but I do enjoy the machines!

Yeah I can see it being a fun causal playthrough, and on those grounds I think it works. I just don't think it will stand the test of ... passing moments ... like Turtles in Time has. I think the modern review hype machine needs to calm itself down a little ha.

@@TheElectricUnderground Yo you gotta check out this Shredders Revenge Review kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nspkjNGGksCzj5s.html.

The intro is awesome though! :-) yeah I do talk about my thoughts on the design where I don't agree with the design philosophy of the devs. Where instead of having strong fundimentals mechanics - attacks, throws, movement - they instead opted to nerf all these options in favor of plug and play special attacks (the dodge, the super, and the uppercut). I fully understand that this is what devs want you to use these mechanics and the game is very clearly designed to push you into using them, but I m not a fan of this style of design. It feels very limited and repetitive to me

Yeah I mention at the end that I don't think the game is bad or anything, just much more of a casually designed experience, and obviously intentionally so. So I don't think it's not worth a recommend if that's what people are looking for. I just don't think it lives up to the heights of stuff like the og turtles in time or SOR4, but those are high bars for sure.

@@TheElectricUnderground You’re right there, it’s not the revolutionary “best ever” game some people are saying, but I can see putting it on when I have a couple friends over and having some mindless fun.

April went from supporting character to the main star. It should be called April's revenge ha. She s a cool character so I get it, but it does show how the property has lost a lot of steam I think when the human stand in ends up as the star

I haven't! I m playing final vendetta right now actually!! Gonna review it

@@TheElectricUnderground Oh cool. Looking forward to seeing that! This is the first I've heard of it!

Thanks so much!

All millennial art references other stuff ha, we can t help ourselves these days. XD

I like fight n rage a lot more :-) most fast and fluid combat, less reliance on toolkit dodgeroll design ha

I'm really happy to hear that. Holy crap this review was a marathon, since I don't get early copies I had to pull 2 all nighters to get it done in a timely manner.

Thank you my dude!!

Ha I can imagine the stark contrast :-D I have a tiny bit but I ve heard really great things so I def need to dig into it

Yeah it s def cool to see a beat em up receive mainstream coverage and praise (don t get used to it ha). For this channel though beat em ups are part of my wheelhouse so I don't really allow the landscape to influence the meat of my reviews. It s fun at the time to ride the hype wave, but 3 months from now the tides can shift and I want my review to stand the test of time as much as possible :-)

Thanks so much my dude!

Reading the newer comments makes me wanna try this game. Some say that TEU missed alot of stuff that he didnt apply properly and the review didnt dug deeper. Still, I am truly glad to see more opinions about this game.

Yes great analysis my dude. I think the same here. There is an illuminating (though frustrating) interview with the dev of this game where he basically says, yeah old school beat em ups are jank and their gameplay should be tossed

@@TheElectricUnderground I read that interview and he was almost entirely positive about old school beat 'em up design and absolutely didn't say it should be tossed. The only really negative thing he said was that there was more jank than people sometimes like to admit and that some quality-of-life upgrades are a good thing. And whether you think they achieved that or not here, I don't think it's an inherently disrespectful or unreasonable way to approach designing a new game in an old franchise. I can think of another time an outside developer took a beloved Konami franchise and rethought major elements of it to bring it up to date and smooth over the jankier bits, and I recall you enjoying Gradius V quite a bit.

@@sethsez holy copium. Go find another channel to nostalgia-jerk on, this isn’t the one.

I m glad you the review. What you are describing of the game being ok but all reviews calling it a masterpiece is the cognative dissonance around the genre I want to avoid. I don't think it s healthy ha. Like if this is the best beat em up, are beat em ups that good? I could see people asking that question. I vaguely remember Casey Jones, I kept calling him Casey Anthony in my mind though ha! Is he April's boyfriend? Even as a kid I remember thinking *does April have a boyfriend?* Ha

Excellent comment my dude! That s an interesting point you brought up about story mode where they could have made the story this long drawn out campaign (a quest mode type thing) but then condensed it down into a best of for arcade mode. That s a cool idea actually! I haven't seen it done well at this point, but it would be cool if someone pulled it off

yes exactly, if I read one more review that mentions quarter munching and watching the 90's cartoon my head will explode in a volcano of blood.

@@TheElectricUnderground Game publishers often give out a list of things to mention when they give out review codes for a game. I've never seen it so blatant as with this game but I also avoid most games media since I'm mostly a retro and indie gamer.

I'm glad to hear that! Thank you for the kind comment 😊

The publisher's previous beat 'em up was SOR4, but the developer's previous one was Scott Pilgrim.

That would be awesome! That and the x men beat em up from back in the day

Thanks for tuning in! No plans to review river city and am currently working on final vendetta review!!

@@TheElectricUnderground Guess your not a fan of that one? Will be keen to see the Final Vendetta review soon, thanks :)

2 hours I would say. Story is just a stage select mode basically ha.

2 hours is slightly longer than many classic SNES fan favourites lol

Thank you so much! it was fun to put together.

The commentary combined with the gameplay footage does occasionally feel like watching someone make fun of Kotaku and then spend half an hour critiquing how Cuphead took the wrong lessons from Contra III... with all of that overlaid on that agonizing VentureBeat Cuphead video. Kiiiiiinda takes some of the wind out of the sails.

Yeah I think what helps me is that I actually kept playing these games and turtles in time all through my life, so I don't have that childhood association with the games exclusively. I just got a hard mode no death clear earlier this year ha

@@TheElectricUnderground congratulations, that has to be tough 👍.