I must admit to a little schadenfreude seeing cEDH players get salty after years of witnessing cEDH players telling everyone that in cEDH people don't get salty because everyone is playing to win so no one has to worry about some unstated social contract.

If they had a counter or interaction and didn’t use it on Grand Abolisher, then they deserve whatever came after it.

As a TO, a cEDH player, and a friend of Cowboy Bob, it can not be stated how important videos like this are. Thank you for addressing what should have been a non issue maturely 🙏 ❤

I can think of many non-cedh games where the combo player drops a card and I ask, “do you win here” and they tell me, “I don’t think so,” and then proceed to win. No money on the line, but your opponent doesn’t owe you information. You could argue that asking your opponent to reveal what is in their hand it a form of soft cheating. I’m not making that argument, but I would argue that if the players at a high level of play think there is a line for him to win they need to decide to interact based on board state and not ask him when they should interact.

Conversations and politics in edh is so vital. Asking a player to stop playing as a point to stop feeding someone is the right call and also advise that’s helpful for you to win. Wasn’t lying, but it turned into his advantage, which is sooo common…

Why does the "community" have weird undefined rules that aren't part of the game?

Ive seen in the comments that there is more video to ne seen. Where is this other video thats not jsut the clip? Where do i find this? Domt say theres more to see worhout siting where this other information is

This is why I believe that all kids should play sports. Learning sportsmanship is a great quality to have. So, they lost. It's not like you did anything to trick them into losing the game. You cast a Grand Abolisher. They didn't respond when it was on the stack. You found a line and then won. Congratulations on your victory. You played a great game! Well done. Shake hands move on. They're just butthurt because they lost. End of story. People like those other guys are what's wrong with society. People can lose with dignity. It's called a competition. Everyone is trying to win at all costs. But unfortunately, you can't win every game. Accept your losses and move on with respect for your fellow player.

The sad thing is that if people had asked for context, the guy would have shared it. Not having the win, and then finding it by digging is not the same as having the win, claiming that you dont have it so people go easy on you, just so you can win.

"The only winning move, is not to play." --W.O.P.R./Joshua

"I'm not going to win. Don't mind this Grand Abolisher, I'm not gonna win." *Wink wink*"

its not tlling a lie if you say you dont think you have it, also they should answered the abolisher if they even wanted a remote chance of winning

Uh...I didn't realize lying was a crime in Magic, so long as you aren't actually cheating--i.e., lying about a rule that you know better about, or palming an extra card and being like, "No, I only drew 1." That's not cool. But...I mean, everything from "I won't attack you next turn" to "I don't have anything to deal with that right now" while looking at a Path in your hand (so that someone else burns their removal) to "No, I probably won't win next turn"....multiplayer Magic is FULL of such 'lies'. This, to me, is beyond a non-issue, and if lying in EDH like that is a crime, I know a hell of a lot of people who are guilty of that, myself included.

Thanks for the follow up video on this PJ! And thanks for having Cowboy Bob himself on to be able to give his opinion and perspective

abolisher is Cedh more or less one of those cards you need to react to reguardless of what someone says. I would never say if I have the win or not, and would just say respond if you can. Cedh games can end out of no where, if you allow something to prevent you from stopping a win that's on you for not trying to keep the game open so to say. Other then that, he didn't have the win in hand at the point he was asked, so he didn't lie. He drew into the win after it was asked due to his draw for turn was abolisher which locked the win at that point. He should have said at best, there might be a line here, but currently it's not a set in stone win. Even then still not a win, plus with money on the line, NO ONE would give free info that could cause them to lose.

Feel bad for Cowboy Bob. I don't think the post should have happened. I do think constantly having the host say, "Someone's gotta lose" and "If you can't handle losing, maybe this isn't the right format for you" is sort of missing why this became an issue. cEDH used to be much smaller of a format, and when you often have to rely on your pod mates and get things to resolve or happen that normally wouldn't, character was a massive aspect of the format, and social punishment was a way to at least make it clear to people who can't be trusted. Personally, I think the format has long since reached the point where you shouldn't take anybody at their word and just play as if they are always winning even if they say they aren't to get something to resolve. Kai is just very much part of the camp that thinks your word matters more than a weekly online tournament, and in some ways I am with him there. But it just means I wouldn't lie. Still wouldn't have let your Grand Abolisher resolve.

I just wanted to take a moment to kinda play devil's advocate here. I think that if he had the win, if he saw the line and straight up lied about it, it's still valid. This is a tournament, this isn't sitting around casually playing with your buddies. They tried to get free resources in the form of knowledge from you and they got bad Intel... That should be normal. Why would you trust anything coming from your opponent? Like seriously, in no other format would anyone feel entitled to know if you're going off or not, and if they try to get that from you they get butthurt when they can't rely on that information.

It's absolutely okay! Win those games.

Is there a full version of the match?

I've had many many times where I don't see something and then start playing cards out and bam it happens xD I don't feel like this is that uncommon a thing to see in casual or competitive magic. And being perfectly real.... I'm not telling folks if I have a win or not until it is on table. If someone said to me 'I don't have the win,' particularly in competitive, I'm still assuming they do. Particularly in competitive we're playing to win... You saying 'I don't have it' means jack all to me xD

Just here to say that I also won Game Day: Dark Ascension. Cloning other people's Primeval Titans was gas.:) Great interview!

A bunch of salty children that are angry they lost a game.

Interesting content!

context or not. bluffing is politics and politics is part of edh. his opponents were salty because it was the finals understandably. Should have ended there instead of turning into drama.

As a player I wouldn't have done this but im glad someone finally did this . Cowboy Bob you're a legend!

Ooooo neat.

cEDH or even EDH is a game with the possibility to politic. How is 'lying about the win' any different than the player who remains quiet when improper threat assessment is going on? Example: I think we ALL have kept quiet as the Nature's Claim hits someone else's Back to Basics instead of the your Birthing Pod.

We've got to work on our emotional strength and intestinal fortitude here. Being upset about being called a netdecker 10 years ago maybe an issue. Ultimately, its a game that people try to warp and take too seriously. It's a great game and format but I mean, this is getting a bit ridiculous lol

Personally I won't touch cEDH with a 10 foot pole (don't like it) , but I recognize the same mindset there from when I played standard . I once won some games on Game Day with a meme deck. My opponent, an otherwise cool dude ( on casual prerelease , commander) went nuts. LGS owner had to come by and diffuse it. Don't misunderstand , I'm not saying you cannot be intense on your interests. Or truly desire to validate yourself by winning something. But you see it too many times , people get blinded by something and make issues from non-issues . Maybe on my example (Game Day) it was the allure of free stuff , a trophy, WINNING. Thanks for the video, wasn't truly aware of the "scandal" , doesnt surprise me there wasn't much to it.

Social contract doesnt exist in cedh i thought

I don't understand the "cheat" here. He didn't promise not to do something and saying you don't have a win doesn't mean anything if you don't concede. Play enough and you'll eventually top deck a win from behind. Even though commander is a social and political game, you should still always take the best moves you can if it's competitive.

Point of CEDH is to win. Be salty and hold up interaction if you don’t like it. Even if he was bluffing, this is a non issue and just someone crying. Congrats on top 4.

Oh man do I feel his comment about not needing to have any death threats over a children's card game I had a former friend help me with something back in November and as payment he wanted a collector box of lost caverns (he spent that much helping me out so pretty reasonable). I tell him sure but I need to get my credit card paid off first, to which he agrees, we don't specify when that will be just it'll happen when it happens. Well early last month he starts really bothering me about it and at this point my card still isn't paid off, he won't accept anything I'm saying to him it's just "wah I want my toy" so I blocked him on all messaging platforms for a bit (still with the intention of paying him off, I just wanted some peace from him since he won't shut up about his box that I owed him). After that he decided to make it a public thing at our LGS and even though I invited him on a couple occasions to talk it out like men he still made it a bigger deal than it needed to be, and people started taking sides. (Wanna guess who painted the picture of the other guy being the bad guy?) It got to the point where this man child threatened to off himself through a third party and after I heard that I gave this guy the biggest ass chewing I've given anyone in my life thus far. Another friend paid him off and I've been avoiding the shop since because I don't need this kind of drama in my life TLDR, this game makes people do stupid things

What did the TO have to say about the situation?

You need to look at more than just the 45 second clip. There’s more there that needs to be seen

I don't see his actions as bluffing but I can fully understand not seeing a line of play then going wait a minute. This game has a lot of strain on mental faculties and being under a high stress environment like a tournament doesn't help. I think what we see here is reasonable. Anyway there will be more tournaments and good luck and I would just say be a bit more mindful.

My issue is BOB has been known to do this religiously, personally he’s done it twice in my games, so this doesn’t surprise me whatever, win at all costs but also don’t lie

As someone who plays Cedh, the idea that the bob didn’t see the line is very fishy. In this type of setting you know your deck inside and out. He had a tutor in hand and a way to draw the card he tutored for. There’s enough on board information to know that the he can attempt the win. The other players having incomplete information (not knowing that he had the e tutor) took him at his word. So yes, he played out the abolisher as a bait point and no one interacted and they should have but don’t tell me you don’t see the line because EVERY cedh player is constantly thinking about what is their line to win based on what’s available to them.

For anyone not familiar w cedh and the cedh tourney scene, there absolutely is a culture of keeping your word. It wasn’t just the guys in this pod it’s become part of our social contract. It’s not against the rules. He was allowed to do this. Don’t let him convince you that he didn’t know what was at stake. He absolutely did. He traded his trustworthy ness for this win. That’s his decision to make but that IS the decision and he knew that’s what he was deciding when he made it. People won’t trust him next time. Maybe for a long time. Maybe forever more. There really is no debate here. He decided to sacrifice his word and reputation for a win. Now he will reap the OBVIOUS AND UNAVOIDABLE CONSEQUENCE of simply not being trusted to keep his word in the future… OBVIOUSLY!! How could it be otherwise? This simple IS what happened. For Cowboy, I hope it was worth it. I’m not saying that sarcastically. It was an EV decision and he made it. And that’s that.

One sided interview imo you should get both kai and Bob on. There's more context not just a 30 sec clip smh

He literally said 4 to 5 times "im not going for the win on my turn" . It's simple every tournament he will be marked. How did the host not watch the videos before interviewing him?

Gotta love how the guy who lied to win is lying about his conduct in game. During this interview he claims he said things like "i dont SEE a win here". Yet if you watch a longer video you find what he actually said is "im not winning, i dont win here, I'm getting interaction for this guy". Also why do you refer to it as bluffing if you swear you didnt see the line??? That makes no sense.

Lying and cheating is probably the most repulsive things I can think of in gaming. I don't think this was technically lying though. The comment "bluffing is part of the game as long as its legal" is such an unfortunate part of an amazing game, I guess its why I don't really like cEDH.