Max's craziest take of all time is and always will be, "yeah, dogshit camera angles dont bother me."

Brb opening up an Italian market named Dungenos

the most enjoyable part of Rise in m+ was clicking my hearthstone to get the fuck out

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but You should bring a casual/semicasual like the last time, it shows a diff perspective that is quite interesting.

Uldaman is so long that if you zone in, you'll be an Ulda Man by the time you're out.

guys did anyone notice the typo in the title

Can’t wait for the top 10 just OK M+ dungeons ever made

Max is on another level dude. The entire time while watching, I had the impression that this was a prerecorded podcast/ discord call and all the videos of the dungeons in the background are edited in for the KZfaq video. But no, he has like 30 tabs of dungeon guides on the ready and clicking through them live. If you have an editor, which you probably have, they gotta be doing soul-searching watching your streams.

The fact that only Dratnos had “Uldaman, LoT” is crazy. It is absolutely my least favorite dungeon of all time.

Poor Fronks gonna get flamed in the next PoddyC after this title mishap

I can't believe Temple of sethralis wasn't on the list. Many problems but the teeming dervish with the pulsing beguiling mob where the dungeon was literally impossible

The sheer LACK of Seat of the Triumvirate hurts

It is a crime that Seat of the Triumvirate was not in the top 3 of everyone's lists

I'm a little surprised that nobody had Seat of the Triumvirate on their list. That was a dog shit dungeon.

You guys need to find someone who pushes really high keys but has like never run with an actual group ever he’s just only ever plugged anything. I think it would add a very interesting perspective

3:09 "A mechanic you feel wronged by" is one of the funniest ways to put that sentiment into words. It's so damn personal.

HERE FOR WORST DUNGENOS

How is there not a single shrine of the storm, cathedral, of triumvirate in these list? I like challenging content but those were so unnecessarily punishing and immediately became dead keys with like half of the affixes at the time

Seat of the Triumvirate was so awful that nobody wants to mention its name.

Dorki explaining that he's been healing keys and then hearing him rage about people being stupid warms my heart

Having a proper camera is really important to me. I only had it happen once, I was a bit under the weather at the time, but getting motion sickness because the camera cant bloody stop gyrating and vibrating like a bunny on steroids in mating season on every little doodad on the walls is no bueno.

“ you could skip it if you had a demon hunter with a seesaw toy”

Arcway was a major offender in terms of dungeon design. Half the trash in that dungeon was just not playable. the best thing you could do was skip the entire right side to the general, then drop down and go to the spider boss. Also pretty much all boss mechanics that actually hit hard being unavoidable or close to it is just not right. The whole mechanic of the doors was also stupid. Due to that, there was a part of the dungeon that literally nobody saw, that was the hallway between passage to General and the X connector to Middle area/left wing. That right wing corridor was pretty much inaccessible, there was quite literally no point in even having it, i am 100% certain almost nobody saw that Hallway or what mobs there are.

MoP CMs are NOT "rose tainted glasses". There's a huge difference between M+ Keys scaling "up" vs overall ilvl scaled to a fixed number (even down, if you were higher) in CMs. Tuning was spot on in CMs because of fixed lower ilvl. In M+ scaling, Boss and Trash HP and Damage goes only "up and up", Players.... not so much during gearing process and it literally stops once you are geared.

I think the most wrong I've ever been in World of Warcraft when it comes to predicting something.... Is before season 1 started when we were doing zeros. I was so sure that Ruby life pools was going to be the Cakewalk super fast 3 boss m plus that everyone loved, And that brackenhide hollow was going to be the worst dungeon to ever exist. Now at the end of the expansion brackenhide is one of my favorites ever and I fucking hate Ruby life pools

Man Growl and Dorki are coping HARD. SD was the worst dungeon theyve put out thus far. Name a week that wasn't bursting volcanic and it was complete trash. Cramped areas, large boss aoes, terrible camera, and to top it off you had many MANY pats that would just wipe you. AND THEN GROWL COMPLAINS ABOUT GRD FOR THE EXACT REASONS WE HATED SD. Bruhhhhhh.

I hadn't seen the dungeon list for season 1 of TWW and hearing people mention that Siege is coming back broke me so hard. Just for me to look it up and find out that they're bringing back three of my least favorite dungeons of all time alongside of it makes me not even want to bother playing M+ for the first season of TWW regardless of how good the new dungeons are. Whoever thought this dungeon set was a good idea for the first season of a new expansion needs to reevaluate everything and go back to the drawing board with it.

Talking about Spires "OH THEY REALLY DIDN'T WANT YOU TO PULL MORE THAN 1 PACK" Good thing they didn't take that design philosophy and bring it to every dungeon at the start of an expac

Here's a random idea for you, Create a great 7 boss WoW raid, but only use dungeon bosses. Feel free to tune the bosses however you like.

Totally based take on Legion dungeons by Dorki and Max. They would be subpar now, but back then M+ was a gigantic step up in terms of dungeon content. Maybe the most important addition to WoW ever.

"Uldaman is too long!" Meanwhile De other SIde : 42+ min timer

I think Spires of Ascension has a strong argument for worst m+ dungeon of all time. It has everything: -Disconnected sections with hard cut offs for count -Slow taxis everywhere -A mandatory jump skip -Mobs in stealth -LoS pulling -Difficult bosses

Brain baby, or crazy thought. What if reaching over 100% trash was not necessarily detriment, but it would increase your output or stats.

At 15:57 I learned that growl was in my group when I ran nelth's lair. Glad the timer was so free when they brought that place back that if you could complete the dungeon the timer never mattered. I think my first +20 Nelth's that season I literally went to do the first pull popped my first defensive too late died as the tank and ended up wasting everyone CD's and lust and than we just pulled that shit in two pulls and still timed the key. I think that dungeon run ended up having like 20+ deaths and it was still a timed key.

I think getting the boys together to discuss the best and worst spec designs throughout the years from your perspectives would be interesting. Like I personally loved Arms warrior at the end of WoD. Just throw rend on your target and spam infinite mortal strikes. Lol.

In Spires of Ascension, I had a friend that kept throwing the spear at the light angel and couldn't figure out why they were wiping. Also I didn't hear you guys mention the bug where if the camera clipped the light angle behind you it would kill your spear to bring the boss back down.

gotta say, i think neltharus is even worse to play in season 4 than it was first time around. removing the instakill chains and making that side of dungeon harder at the same time just makes it unfun

The respawn point thing has a really simple solution. When you release, you're a ghost and can run back to your body OR just talk to the spirit healer at the gy to respawn there instead. No penalty or anything, just an option in case you really don't want to have to run to your corpse. This would allow people to run back as a ghost and get rezzed along the way if the group is able to.

wtf was that ray of shadow apparition at @1.42.20 ?

The issue with Nelth Lair on fort week is 40% of the dmg taken is from the two scorpions at the end of the dungeon... very nasty mob

I have been preaching for about a year now that if they just had a literal spirit healer mob standing at each checkpoint it would just be the best and most obvious thing of all time.

Uldaman not being on these lists is actually sickening

Having uldaman at 10 is kinda crazy. First of all you got adds where you need to cc like every 2-3 seconds and also interupt (looking at you dwarfs)🦍 if u dont u either pulse massive aoe damage or u get 1 shot. Atleast the 1 shot is dispellable. You got adds that can easily 1 shot the tank if they don’t kite or someone in your party stuns them. You need to los adds at the end or u get nuked to oblivion. And don’t get me started on the Bosses the only boss that’s actually easy are the first boss the 3 dwarfs the rest of the bosses are nuclear difficulty. Where you literally have to play them perfectly or it’s a wipe. The dungeon is way longer than it has to be and the timer is very unforgiving aswell. Just a miserable experience from start to finish.

Looking forwarded to best/worst M+ boss lists and drafts!

Tol Dagor is the absolute worst M+ dungeon by far. 1) extremely buggy, 2) mandatory rogue, 3) buggy/broken affixes (sanguine and beguiling), 4) borked camera angles, 5) very unfun/overtuned bossfights (bosses 2 and 4 especially), 6) overly long, 7) overly difficult, 8) constant balance/mechanics yo-yo'ing (cannons being overpowered, then doing next to nothing, then being unusable, then being overpowered again, having to kill/not kill/ tank/not tank Howlis' brother), 9) "doubles" (aka double use of mechanics) on the last boss can destroy the entire run by one-shotting people.

nelths lair second boss had a massive bug with the center ring where the hands when they spawned would insta close and kill u. actually terrible for pugs who didnt know and would 100% brick keys.

Hold on, is it normal that I really enjoyed Nalthor the Rimebinder? Granted, I was a Venthyr Warrior so it was pretty funny to be able to skip the whole gauntlet every time I got thrown into it.

Love these videos! War within The Dawnbreaker dungeon and maybe City of Threads are about to be legendary

6 out of 8 SL dungeons making it on these lists truly do be saying something about the awesomeness that was SL.

Cathedral of Eternal Night and Seat of the Triumvirate didnt make this list?

uldaman deserves at least not dead last, it's classic, picturesque dungeon. is a bit long, but has cool bosses.

1:08:42 lmfao Dratnos has a perfect 🤓 impression

Uldaman is a “perfect dungeon” candidate actually

You guys should rank wow's raid trinkets or races. Love listening to you guys crashing out on each other.

Arcway was terrible when it came out. THats total nostalgia. Of course, Blizzard understood they couldn't keep the maze mechanic before adding to M+ rotation back then, but has FORGOTTEN this for mists in tww.

on neltharions lair, i just really loved spell reflecting the last bosses tank mechanic

Notice how all these dungeons were bad "if you only played one season", but now that's what we have to deal with every season? Blizzard does not fine tune these dungeons well enough over the duration of a single season, we need to get rid of this rotating dungeon pool and just focus on making the new dungeons pop. Shadowlands dungeons in season 3 weren't just good because of encrypted, they were good because the issues got fixed over time.

I like how you are showing a Sanguine/Quaking week for Grimrail, with the sleep zones. That shit was actual cancer.

Good to see that we'll be getting 2 of the top picks for Season 1 of TWW. I'm glad that Blizzard knows their audience pretty well

My pick is every SL dungeon then seat or cathedral lol. The only redeeming quality of SL dungeons was in theater of pain we would save CDs in the gulag to kill each other. Which made for good memories.

I would like to defend Rise for a hot minute here. That area before 3rd boss was very dependant on your healer, and whenever I'd feel it, i'd just tell my tanks to get those packs in one go and let my big CDs loose just to see healer number go up. Moments where healers can use CDs to see healer number go up rather then healing a lot of oneshotty spot damages are always great

I feel like worst M+ bosses could be an interesting conversation. Maybe limiting it to certain seasons if all M+ is too broad.

Spires of Ascension is like Halls of Valor without any of the parts of HoV that people actually liked

Surprised not to see Lower Kharazan

I think a top 10 worst dungeon rating doesnt pay credit where credit is due, since there's just too many shitty dungeons for similar reasons. Therefore here's my rating of the best reasons why some dungeons suck: 1) Silly mechanics contributing a ton of dps. Let it be stealing boralus canoneers, nectoric wake weapons, zapbots, irondock pods or nelth chains, it just feels awkward. 2) Clipping bugs and layer issues. Looking at you Seat, Tol Dagor and Lower Karazhan. Invisible ground effects, people getting stuck inside and pulling trash through walls, ceilings and floors. 3) Severly overtuned mitigation checks. Legion was strong on this one. Some dungeons basically forced you to run the lego neck and a full avoidance stack, or gated certain specs really early. 4) Insanely overwhelming CC requirements. Uldaman feels like an entirely different monster of a dungeon without the shitton of CC a vdh provides. 5) Exploits to good to pass on. Like skipping the siege phase in Irondocks or avoiding certain mechanics entirely through pathing limitations like in Atal or Blackrook. 6) RP nonsense provided to you by Court of Stars and Tazavesh. 7) Group restrictions. I know its similar to 3) and 4), but I felt like dungeons extremely favoring a certain class ability, profession or whatever deserves a spot for itself.

i went to bed listening to this, and fronk and Dratnos just decide to wake me up mid sleep at the end? SMH

... Blaming the individuals and calling them idiots for pulling mobs through walls in Tol Dagor... that's a wild take. "Urr, pressing some random ability" nope. Any fire mage offensive ability. Anything and everything applied ignite, ignite spread, pulled mobs. Unholy DK disease, like 15-30% of your damage (depending on build).. Not random abilities. "You could learn the spots" yeah, anywhere after the first boss. Awakened definitely skewed the perspective here.

I think if you played primarily (or exclusively) with random players, especially at a lower level, it would massively shift your opinions on some of these. Court of Stars and Uldaman, for the exact same reasons, made me so mad. Court also had the issues that were mentioned, like the profession gimmicks... the enforcers... I don't think it was mentioned, but starting the dungeon with a minute long boatride omfg... But the thing that bothers me the most in these dungeons is how much harder other people can make it. Obviously that's always gonna be true, if you've got people standing in fire it's gonna be harder on the healer, if you've got people randomly (/accidentally) pulling mobs it's gonna be harder on the tank. If you've got a tank that keeps moving out of AoEs the DPS are gonna have a tough time... but some things take it to a whole other level, and it's not obvious that the individuals are actually failing. They think they've handled the mechanic because they've survived, but they've made it SO. MUCH. HARDER. Court of Stars... First boss has that "jump to clear debuff" mechanic. Obviously if people don't, or you don't have MD, it's gonna be harder and that's obviously the individuals failing... But the 2nd/3rd bosses? If you stack on the 2nd boss there's less fire on the ground. If you don't stack, you'll probably still survive, but now its increasingly messy. 3rd boss (last boss) is the ultimate example. If you had the tank and melee stay still the whole fight, only move from the first line, and have the ranged/healer stand at the other end of that line... every single line would stack and there'd be all the room in the world. Of course that almost never happens [at least in average keys] and so you end up with lines all over the map. So, so, so much harder. Same thing for uldaman. First 2 bosses are usually handled fine, but the 3rd boss (Lizard with stun orbs)... all it takes is one person to walk into a stun at the wrong time and chances are you've wiped... if you don't wipe, you're making it so much harder to heal. 4th boss (embertron) again, sooo much harder if people don't group up to kill the adds. Most pugs seem to end up in different sections during the intermission which just makes it more difficult, and often results in death from lack of healing or death from the healer trying to get close enough to drop a heal on someone who's STILL RUNNING AWAY, TOWARDS THE DEATH BEAM??!? And the last boss, holy shit. The difference between groups that stack up for all the circles, and can therefore completely ignore soaking, and groups that have some ranged DPS standing where you'd move to next dropping crap on the ground and filling the entire room [hyperbole] before the first rewind make it SO MUCH HARDER. Haven't finished the video at time of posting, but my #1 would either be Tol Dagor... because it was broken af and pulling mobs through the walls/floors is itself enough reason for it to have the #1 spot... Or Mists of Tirna Scythe, not because of any mechanics (although I have my issues there, too), not because of the last boss which... ew. Simply because of the nightfae. "Are we having fun?" No, no we're not, and you're not helping, stupid fairy. The Jailer tearing their wings off would've made him the best character of all time, from being [one of] the worst.

I'd love for a dungeon creator to be added to the game for MANY reasons. Hope we can start creating our own for-fun content to put our theories of what makes good content to the test.

No Shrine of the Storms? Or Temple of Sethraliss?

I think that Theater was kind of annoying, but I wasn't a pusher, and I did that with friends and guildies, so it was always fun to save CDs to blast against them. That did I can see why that boss would suck if you're pushing and you've gotta worry about timers.

Storm, Seat, Original HoV, and Siege are all piss and viniger. SmbG being on any list is ludicrous

Isn't Siege of Boralus in the 11.0 M+ rotation? I hope they fixed your guy's points then ^^'

The way 2 of these dungeons mentioned are already locked in for next season :(

Max huge fan but I think the list is a bit focus on the high end players. As a mid range player. I think these dungeons were absolutely brutal Legion Arcway Vault of the warden Seat of the triumpvale Cathedral of eternal night BFA Tol dagor Temple of snakes(whatever name it’s called) Siege of boralus Shrine of the storm Kings rest Shadowlands De other side Plaguefall Sanguine depth Dragonflight Azure vaults (s1) HOI (s2) Uldaman Outside dungeons Grimrail depot Temple of the jade serpent Vortex pinnacle

Anyone have the link for this doc so i can do it with some buddies?

As someone who would probably be considered a “casual”, even though I’ve watched some RTW First since coming back to WoW in BFA. I have legit enjoyed these videos of y’all chopping it up and ranking and providing your perspectives in this long form style. So I, at least, watch every second of these videos and just wanted to say gg’s 🤘🏻

my guild members really wanna run some dungenos this week

I made the mistake of watching twitch chat a few times. Enormous regret.

love when these 4 get together to chat

Instead of just putting together the scores, you can make a weighted average and add 0 for a dungeon that didnt made the list of one of you. This might prevent that single high picks make into the final list.

DUNGENOS

Youve never put your d&d in a tree or chandelier because of the camera issues?

Uldaman one of the worst dungeons? Hell no, it is one of the best in my books! So much action between the rapid fire of well-designed bosses and big trash pulls. Nothing in there feels boring to me. Also Uldaman just is a legendary place in general.

Dorki and Greg are my two go to dudes in WoW.

I really liked Necrotic Wake and not because it was easier. It was actually just fun. Idk what Dratnos is on about the gauntlet being boring pulls, those were always the most fun pulls to me in there. I don't really know why but just the way they always played out everytime I played it. The tanks running around the room trying not to get more than 4 stacks from the Abominations... idk Necropolis area was a banger imo

nah fuck sanguine depths

yo, inky black potion shoutout, love that!!

I think blizz is incapable of fixing hunter pets on last boss in siege so it can never be a good dungeon for me personally. I think they said they fixed it multiple times and it was always broken still

Just clicked to start watching, is it safe to assume at least 6, if not 8 are from Dragonflight? 😣😣

Hahaha the Dratnos take on Temple of the Jade Serpent, its so accurate

yo dorki is on it court of stars is ASS CHEEKS

@dorki so funny enough us Oceania servers were like 90% alliance over horde until dragonflight so siege was a major issue back then for oce.

I must say he is right about nelf lair......I hated that place each week or when I got the key.....and back then I played a rogue so we had skips but dam it was total shit

I am now realizing that I didn't even know what Kings Rest was as a dungeon. It's because I didn't do Mythic dungeons in BFA, but looking at Kings Rest now, I had no idea it even existed. I know of and ran every other dungeon, but apparently this one evaded me.

Love those type of Videos please continue , goated format period

In general I agree with a lot of the points, but Seat not being in there is just absolute copium. It was a bizarrely terrible dungeon. Mobs were horrible with horribly annoying abilities, the bosses were just awful and in general, there's a reason most groups that did 20s often weren't able to reliably time a +17. Definitely some recency bias when it comes to this one, but other than that, I think the guys were pretty on point.

where's Seat of triumviraids?

Hi Max, where do you get you amazing desktop background ? Manny thanks in advance !

De Other Side will always be my least favorite M+ dungeon. Probably because I had to farm it so damn much for that stupid tank trinket.