THE AIR BATTLE OF TARTUS: The Israeli Aerial Ambush That Shot Down 8 MiGs

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THE AIR BATTLE OF TARTUS: The Israeli Aerial Ambush That Shot Down 8 MiGs

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Күн бұрын

My videos often highlight historical dilemmas. Should we spend money on a flawed aeroplane to fill a capability gap for a few years? Should I get into a turning fight with that MiG? Should we try to shoot down that runaway aircraft or risk it crashing down on a city?
On the 13th of September 1973 the commanders of the Syrian Air Force faced such a dilemma. Prepared for war, they detected two RF-4E Phantoms streaking towards the ports at which military cargo was being unloaded. They knew that this was probably an ambush that would cost them planes and pilots. But they couldn't afford to let details of their readiness fall into Israeli hands.
This video goes into detail about the decision they made and the fight that ensued. It also highlights the preferred air-to-air tactics of the elite IDF/AF formations that would be tasked with establishing air superiority in the Yom Kippur war.
I hope you find this analysis interesting. I recognise in posting it that even fifty years on there is great depth of feeling about this conflict. As a reminder, this channel is focused on aircraft, pilots, weapons and tactics. If in covering those topics I have inadvertently misrepresented information then I apologise. Constructive comments are always very much appreciated and I learn a lot from them.

Пікірлер: 107

@mikaelbiilmann6826 11 ай бұрын

So, the Syrians weren’t stupid… got it. It was the Israelis who were just smart! 😂

@notapound 11 ай бұрын

Ha! Yes. Maybe I should have come up with a smartness scale to give a more fulfilling comparison :)

@hoodoo2001 11 ай бұрын

Uh, the Israelis got caught with their pants down in 1973. They recovered, but not without significant loss and sacrafice.

@patrickchase5614 11 ай бұрын

No, in this instance the Syrians knowingly accepted a tactical loss in order to preserve the possibility of strategic victory down the line. The loss of 8 MiGs was a very good exchange for avoiding detection of their preparations for all-out war. Given the inferiority of Syria's fighters and weapons there was realistically no other way to prevent a thorough reconnaissance of Tartus. At this point it is widely known and understood that Israel's lack of readiness was a massive strategic failure. The Syrians were smarter, period. Once the war started the Israelis' superior tactics and training (along with the US Operation Nickel Grass airlift) enabled them to turn the tables, but in the lead up the Syrians definitely got the best of them.

@patrickchase5614 11 ай бұрын

@@notapound I'd give the Syrians the higher rating for smartness here. 8 easily replaced MiGs for strategic surprise on Yom Kippur was a very favorable exchange from their PoV.

@patrickchase5614 11 ай бұрын

@@hoodoo2001 Exactly. The Syrians obtained strategic surprise on Yom Kippur, and came remarkably close to victory.

@jlvfr 11 ай бұрын

Mig with no gun and F-4 with gun. It's a reversal of the Vietnam situation...

@nickmitsialis 11 ай бұрын

I'm surprised; I thought late Model "21s" had an aerodynamic gun pod with 2 23mm cannons that was attached to the MiG's belly.

@gotanon9659 11 ай бұрын

Aside from the first Mig 21 variant and last variant entering service with the VPAF the middle variants never had a gun or only had a gun pod

@dominiqueroudier9401 11 ай бұрын

@@nickmitsialisthe GP9 Gun pod was used by India ...i think. Was an option by builder for modèl FL or PFL. After MF and others until Bis have internal twin barrel 23mm gun

@nickmitsialis 11 ай бұрын

@@dominiqueroudier9401 Thanks; the only reason I thought of it was because of a Mid/Late 1970s aviation magazine that recollected a Phantom/MiG encounter (presumably during the Linebacker missions), wherein the Phantom took a couple of 23mm hits in it's wing, courtesy of a MiG21. I cannot recall any other details other than the hydraulic fluid sparked a persistent small fire on/in the wing.

@TLTeo 11 ай бұрын

The R-3S is basically a reverse engineered AIM-9B, so I imagine it came with all its limits - 2g launch limit, limited tracking immediately post launch, etc. Carrying just two of those in a full out dogfight sounds like a truly awful idea.

@AndrewGivens 9 ай бұрын

Indeed. A lot of these 1960s jet combats sound like Macchi 200s against Spitfires in WW2, in terms of hard kill ability per aircraft/pilot.

@ReviveHF 11 ай бұрын

The Israeli F-4 Phantoms were basically using similar tactics as the American Naval Aviators during WW2 in the Pacific and the North Vietnamese Air Force during Vietnam War.

@notapound 11 ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment. I’m not familiar with the WW2 reference, but my understanding is that the VPAF used GCI to perform hit and run attacks on the number 4 in a US formation. Those planes weren’t typically engaged before they were attacked, although I do remember reading that MiG-17s were sometimes used as bait?

@ReviveHF 11 ай бұрын

@@notapound So do you think that current planes like the F-22, F35, F-16V and F/A-18E/F equipped with the sensor fusion can be act as on board GCI to perform better attacks? Or it just a tool to enhance pilot's situational awareness? From what I read from the net, the MIG-17 did use a tactic called “wagon wheel” formations, where two or up to four planes flew in a tight circle allowing each to cover the rear of the aircraft in front. The "Wagon Wheel" formation also helps in disrupting the locking procedures of the air to air missiles. If a F-4 tried to zoom in behind one of the MiGs in a wagon wheel formation, the other North Vietnamese aircraft from the high altitude would swoop in position to engage the F-4. I highly recommend the "MIGs Over North Vietnam: The Vietnam People's Air Force in Combat, 1965-75" book by Roger Boniface.

@TLTeo 11 ай бұрын

@@ReviveHF That tactic has been in use since ww1 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufbery_circle

@modelaviation3848 11 ай бұрын

You have got to be one of my favourite KZfaqrs I would love to see you talk about the F-111 and in Australian service

@LeonAust 11 ай бұрын

I would like to hear about the Aussie F/A-18A and F/A-18F Superhornets over Iraq

@FirstDagger 11 ай бұрын

Awesome gun camera footage you have unearthed.

@Manbemanbe 11 ай бұрын

Great video. Great research. I think this incident is a great reminder of how we shouldn't base all our conclusions about the performance of Phantoms against MiGs and vice versa solely on experiences in the Vietnam War. A refreshing perspective.

@BokoDisraeli 11 ай бұрын

We also shouldn’t forget that most of what we consider to be universal truth about the air war over Vietnam is mostly true of the just the first part of the war. There was substantial evolution in weapons and tactics that remedied many of the horror stories we hear of from early on.

@jamesmandahl444 6 ай бұрын

We also should not assume the heavily buffed israeli kill counts.

@michaelsamuel9917 10 ай бұрын

@1:18 the pilot standing on the wing of the plane is Lt Hafez al Assad the father of the current President of Syria Bashar al-Assad, he actually shot down a British plane during the 1956 Suez crisis.

@briantoplessbar4685 10 ай бұрын

Your content is the best military aviation content on this period I have ever seen. I need to buy you a beer

@classicforreal 10 ай бұрын

"You don't win wars by giving your enemy problems, you win by giving your enemy dilemmas" Ryan McBeth

@RK150780 11 ай бұрын

Not really according to well-known sources. No Neshers were involved, but 8 Mirage IIIC-s, one of which was indeed shot down. Also, no Sparrows were used, and all kills were up-close, with AIM-9D (most), cannon (2) and Shafrir-2 (1)

@jr7392 11 ай бұрын

Fascinating video, thanks! Very interesting take on the standard view of Arab pilots being easy prey for the IAF. Part of it might be the lack of gun camera footage from the Arab side, while a plethora of exploding MiG clips are all over the place, so the idea becomes "set" and backed by visual evidence. That's not to say the Israeli opinion of Syrian pilots was totally unwarranted as 1982 over Lebanon showed, though that could be for lack of institutional experience as pilots with combat time were dead, retired or otherwise gone. Though the IAF has a well-deserved reputation for competence, at least some were not superior to their opponents. I read an account by an Egyptian MiG-17 pilot who took down a Phantom and was actually surprised because the Israeli tried to dogfight him instead of zooming away, a maneuver the Egyptian pilot stated he could not follow, then proceeded to down the F-4 with cannon fire. I also wonder how much the poor record of Soviet-equipped forces was doctrine as well as poor missiles. The Operation Rimon 20 in 1970 would be a fascinating subject for a video, but I would imagine that info or footage from this one would be even harder to find. Equipment-wise, the aircraft were the latest (at the time) MiG-21MFs with an internal gun but presumably still the Atoll missiles, so I don't think that would be an issue. During that operation, the Soviets apparently fell for the exact tactic described in this current video, losing 5 MiG-21s for no kills. The Egyptians were not too sad at this as they had been on the receiving end of harsh Soviet criticism for their losses to the IAF, losses the Soviets ascribed to pilot incompetence on the part of the Egyptians. The embarrassment the Soviets suffered reportedly led them to institute their own version of the U.S. Navy's Top Gun program.

@RCAvhstape 11 ай бұрын

Loving this channel so far. Solid work.

@GunniesLetsFlyVFR 11 ай бұрын

Great Video ❤! Recognise the Mirage gun camera! Worked on IIIO Models. Saw F16s and F15s in the same place after a Cape thunder exercise in the Philipines back in 1986 i think 😂. Hahah

@notapound 11 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it! You would be surprised how hard it is to find good gun camera footage that isn’t copyrighted! Not a problem I expected to have, I must say!!

@alessandrapirelli7040 10 ай бұрын

Just found this channel. Excellent narration!

@tholmes2169 11 ай бұрын

Great video, I’m fascinated by the various skirmishes and battles fought by Israel and the neighboring states.

@anselmdanker9519 11 ай бұрын

Very interesting and informative. Thank you.

@notapound 11 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

@hawkertyphoon4537 11 ай бұрын

Always, ALWAYS have a Gun of some sort. The Syrians chose the lesser of two evils it seems. Thank you for this look back into history!

@king_br0k 11 ай бұрын

Hands a revolver to the pilot "You will be needing this"

@hawkertyphoon4537 11 ай бұрын

@@king_br0k Pilot shoots Navigator in the face is your Callsign JOKER or something?

@hoodoo2001 11 ай бұрын

Under the argument of the video, which is quite interesting and certainly food for thought, the Syrians made a pawn sacrafice.

@stephenhoda3362 7 ай бұрын

Thanks for your insight.

@hooperturner 11 ай бұрын

Best question on the internet today: “should I get into a turning fight with that MiG”

@pastorrich7436 11 ай бұрын

Content Idea: ADC Tactics and technique for the employment of AA missiles of the Century Series. Falcon, Genie, Sidewinder, Sparrow, etc...

@notapound 11 ай бұрын

Thank you - good idea - I've ended up covering it all in a piecemeal fashion so putting it all together would be interesting (for me, at least!)

@pastorrich7436 11 ай бұрын

@@notapound, I thought that may be the case as I have enjoyed what you've shared so far on weapons use but specifics of employment and tactics could be a deeper dive. It also opens the door to the RCAF!

@petesheppard1709 11 ай бұрын

Wow! An excellent video!! I've never seen those Syrian gun camera photos. I would hesitate to call the encounter an ambush, though, since the Syrians pursued the recon planes and actually shot at them. Had they broken off when the Phantoms turned away, there probably would not have been a fight.

@patrickchase5614 11 ай бұрын

I think you framed this terrifically: It's a classic example of a tactical victory that came at the expense of a near-fatal strategic failure (specifically Israel's failure to detect the Syrian preparations for full-scale war).

@huskergator9479 11 ай бұрын

Excellent! Keep up the awesome work!

@singularity1115 11 ай бұрын

This channel is Perfect !!!!!!!!!!

@dtrain1634 11 ай бұрын

Very informative- thank you!

@SpawnofChaos2010 11 ай бұрын

Not bad mate, the effort is appreciated. A couple of questions/thoughts for you... while I'm not educated on the matter, I question whether or not the pilots from the Arab states of the era were really as inept as they're often made out to be. How much could their training and preparation have differed from North Vietnamese aviators? I wonder whether radar coverage and ground controllers helped contribute to the poor showing from the Syrian Air Force. Look forward to your next effort, thanks for your channel.

@thomasbell7033 11 ай бұрын

Remember, in these "bait-and-switch" engagements the Syrians, unlike the NVPAF, were not.facing sluggish, bomb-laden Phantoms in a chronically low fuel state. And I don't say that to take away from the skill and courage of the NV aviators.

@obsidianjane4413 11 ай бұрын

The Israelis benefitted from the distilled knowledge and even equipment tuned to the American experience fighting Soviet equipment and tactics in N. Vietnam.

@LeonAust 11 ай бұрын

Remember the North Vietnamese aviators failed as well.

@obsidianjane4413 11 ай бұрын

@@LeonAust They did have their moments. Especially early before the MIC adapted to it.

@brianrmc1963 11 ай бұрын

My first thought is “offense is better than defense.” If I was the Syrian commander I wouldn’t have fallen for the same trick the Israelis were already known to use. The Syrians ALWAY have should assumed there were bandits on the deck they couldn’t see. Sun Tzu would have advised the Syrians not to engage, especially with the missile their MiG-21s were forced to use. However, if they were to engage they should have flown at a speed and altitude that could kinematically defeat any missile a pop - up target could have thrown at them. The MIG-21 was a formidable aircraft, but only if it could shoot.

@MrLeewsee 11 ай бұрын

How about a video about the Folland Knat! should be lots of interesting anecdotes and intel on this forgotten fighter (indo-pakistani wars).

@notapound 11 ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment… and you’re the second person to mention it. I’ll add it to the list. The legend of the Knat as a Sabre killer is worth a look, I reckon…

@Logan4661 4 ай бұрын

Ah, the ol' master bait and switch scenario.

@Allan_aka_RocKITEman 2 ай бұрын

*_"He was brighter, I was smarter. He was faster, and I was quicker."_* - THE GREAT WALDO PEPPER [1975]

@majorbloodnok6659 11 ай бұрын

Interesting, thank you

@socaljarhead7670 11 ай бұрын

The SA-6 was the major problem in 1973.

@JoaoSoares-rs6ec 5 ай бұрын

The mig21, the phantom and mirage were designed with the simple purpose to go fast and intersept bombers,

@TheKeithvidz 11 ай бұрын

Fantastic context. I'd read of this clash first on Wikipedia way back and more recently as weeks ago from a fellow youtuber. 7:18 I always hold and the youtuber in question disagreed - _pilot training trumps technology._ Lackluster results in Vietnam prompted creation of TOPGUN school - dogfighting is where the US was found wanting, They'd fought closer to Arab pilots. Most hadn't heard of a SCISSORS. _More Israeli planes would have dropped had Syria skills Israelis do._ The footage places Israelis in unfavorable positions. That said Russia is known to sell inferior versions of their weapons. You this instance convinced me the tech almost matched pilot skill as a factor.

@notapound 11 ай бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it! As it happens, I have a video coming up next Friday that will cover the capabilities of the aircraft and training of pilots in the Egyptian, Syrian and Israeli airforces in 1973… niche, I know!

@TheKeithvidz 11 ай бұрын

@@notapoundNiche? That determined the air war. Had the Arabs trained as i say, Israel would not be to fly freely even had they gotten better of the SAMs. Subbed so i should be notified.

@AnimalMother207 11 ай бұрын

I never understood why the Soviet doctrine was to use hit and run aircraft when their missiles were rear aspect only. what happens if the enemy aircraft is going towards you? just run?

@retr0_fps 11 ай бұрын

its not soviet but syrian doctrine. also the syrians didnt have / get all aspect missiles on the pfm. they only came later on some mig 21 bis models but mostly on later planes like the 23 & 29

@robertkalinic335 11 ай бұрын

Planes like mig21 are not hit and run, they can dogfight too. You have plenty of people doing that in dcs. But i feel like you are kinda correct cause soviets were stuck longer in anti bomber interceptor thinking compared to americans who had to adapt in vietnam, when soviets realized it cause they lost their advisors against israelis they adapted too. I may be wrong on some details so dont take my word too seriously.

@ReviveHF 11 ай бұрын

Probably due to lack of experience

@theprogressivecynic2407 11 ай бұрын

Good video. Check out Operation Mole Cricket 19, Operation Focus, and Operation Rimon 20 for other crazy IAF air battles. You're probably already familiar with the first two, as those are seriously famous.

@urisimchoni3936 9 ай бұрын

I'd like to correct something - the Israeli aircraft that was shot down was a Mirage IIIc, not a Nesher (which was basically a Mirage V). Also I don't understand all the "ambush" story - as the video correctly indicates, the mission was to figure out what was going on in Lattakia and/or Tartus. It was not to shoot down MIGs. So the other planes were there to protect the Phantom F4's, in case something went bad, and the Israelis were very surprised to find 20 MiGs intercepting the Phantoms. There were talks of a mole in the IDAF HQ, but then the war broke off and it was understood that the Syrians had been on alert preparing for the war.

@urisimchoni3936 9 ай бұрын

But the final conclusion is very correct - the Israeli pilots at the time behaved like Indians who wanted to add another scalp to their belt, and other tasks of the air force were deemed as less important.

@gregoryjohnston1950 8 ай бұрын

Your video recently showed up on my KZfaq sight, and I then read the comments wi 9:02 th some interest. You and many of those who commented really misunderstand the core issue. The pilots. I had opportunity to spend time with a Top Gun pilot who had trained both Syrian and Israeli pilots. This was in 1974 at Luke Air Force Base. I ask him about the difference in pilots. He was very clear, Israeli pilots were smart and easy to train, and then he added of Syrian pilots "its hard to train a camel jocky to fly.".He went on to say that the Syrian pilots would become so fixated on instruments they would fly into a mountain. And he had to be on his guard all the time to avoid becoming a casualty.

@notapound 8 ай бұрын

Hi thanks for the comment. My video entitled 'The Eve Of Battle' looks at the equipment and training of the Arab air forces in more detail, using Russian and Pakistani accounts of their skills and issues. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hqqdjLlpyLrcgnk.html

@raymondyee2008 11 ай бұрын

Interesting.

@rdenovan1 10 ай бұрын

export model migs,very well equiped f4s ,not really a fair fight

@ShamanKish 11 ай бұрын

Do you have video on Israeli planes shot down above Damascus? I remember watching on TV 7 planes going down.

@notapound 11 ай бұрын

Something like this?: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/grF7YJOLraiaYZc.htmlsi=ABBGjEQrJ4dNAhvc

@andreasvulcan_gr2595 11 ай бұрын

2:55 and 3:20 am I the only one to see Greek and not Israeli Phantoms?

@davidwhiteley3879 9 ай бұрын

So first you show an Israeli RF-4, then 2 Greek F-4Es - lacking in footage? Then a Greek RF-4, MiG-21Fs (not PFMs)?

@notapound 9 ай бұрын

Yep, I was trying to give flavour. Finding footage that is not copyrighted is an endless challenge when operating on a limited budget.

@1joshjosh1 11 ай бұрын

I am and atheist but if I had to pick a religion according to who wins in air combat I would pick Judaism. They're God seems to be on their side a ridiculous amount. In some cases almost annoyingly.

@paullakowski2509 10 ай бұрын

I never thought of it that way....thanks

@Eric-kn4yn 9 ай бұрын

Airhead

@ahmadfathy7994 25 күн бұрын

Are you mean American 😂😂😂 help.

@ahsansariyadi29 11 ай бұрын

so the Syrian were basically succeeded at keeping the military build up as a secret

@s.marcus3669 11 ай бұрын

Not quite. The IDF knew about the buildup and yes, they did have photos and other HUMINT proof but the government was blinded by the spectacular victory of 1967. That arrogance would bite the Israelis in the tuchas, big-time in October of 1973.....

@paullakowski2509 10 ай бұрын

its a lesson no one seems to learn @@s.marcus3669

@hoodoo2001 11 ай бұрын

Good video. Even at the time it wasn't what you didn't know that got you into deep trouble, but what you thought you knew for sure was true when it actually wasn't. You see this in the current Ukraine war. Urkainians perpetuate the myth they are invincible and never make mistakes and yet the Russians still hold on to a great deal of Ukraine real estate despite the constant flow of videos of Russian armor, logistics, and troops being knocked out. Somewhere along the like you have to think that some Ukrainians are drinking the Kool Aid given out by the internet (and losses NOT given out by the UArmed Forces). The real picture is the result, not the process and the result is only seen with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight. You see this in war after war, not just picking on the Israelis or the Ukrainians.

@davidb6576 11 ай бұрын

The Ukrainians are doing what they must - battle with all available resources against a criminal invasion of their territory by a murderous country. How you feel about their progress against the Russian thugs is immaterial. I and most of my fellow Americans are fully behind our support of UA.