This is the first in person interview with both scholars. I hope this discussion was helpful!

The problem is your pastor doesn't know any of this. They preach the same old same old, the Bible colleges and seminaries teach the same old message devoid of critical content and they actively discourage critical thinking or reading outside of a very narrow band. I discovered the Epic of Gilgamesh and it accelerated my journey towards atheism because I understood I'd been lied to by well-meaning but ignorant paastors and teachers. I even wrote a book on Genesis 1-11 to help myself understand not just the what, but the why. Took two years and it was fun. This was a great episode. Thank you.

Love seeing these 2 speaking together! I love how Miller, in his book, points out that Justin Martyr's apologetic compares Jesus to all the other diefied figures of the mediterranean world and shows that Jesus isn't to far off from them.

Taking the supernatural out of ancient texts and viewing them as archetypes and mythology is true wisdom.

Absolutely a powerhouse of an interview. I studied koine Greek in college for a year and was able to do translation work. But what Dr. MacDonald Is talking about regarding Homeric Greek is nearly A new language to have to learn, and most academics already have full plates. It literally requires someone like Dennis McDonald to have specialized in what seems like an extremely niche line of antiquated History to be able to tease out how the logic and heuristic ways of thinking of the people of that era would have influenced the development of some oral stories about a Jewish apocalyptic, messianic rebel. I mean seriously, is it any wonder why the story of Jesus as told by the Greek born Hellenized Jewish authors of the Gospels would have caught on with people in the Greco Roman world?

Goatee GOATs. Thanks Derek for making these discussions accessible to everyone

The good doctors talked about the very thing I have thought about. People like my brother, a retired pastor, would find it next to impossible to admit they were wrong about the reality of god, the multiple errors in the Bible and the manmade aspect of the entire mythology. His former career, reputation and ver identity hinge in god being real! Not to mention the pride factor. Makes me wonder how many pastors don’t actually believe it is true but, once they based their whole lives on that one thing they are basically unqualified for any other career. What can they do? I once heard Billy Graham didn’t believe god was real as far back as the 1970s but, his entire empire hinged on god being real so he was stuck with it. Intellectual integrity should override the pride and fear of starting over but, it doesn’t always.

The moment Richard almost cries from McDonald’s compliment

I’m so grateful that folks like this are still out there. It’s refreshing to see responsible approaches to all scholarship.💯

"How is this not the obvious question on the table?" Eighteen or more centuries of apologetics and "scholarship" being taken as one and the same perhaps?

We Are MythVision!

This rivalry of the synoptics seems awful close to rewritten Bible within the bible, e.g. Chronicles copying/changing Samuel/Kings.

This is amazing. I feel fulfilled and touched just looking at these two guys relate to each other.

Man, that felt so short 😩

The New Testament would have had to have had witnesses writing down everything that they ("saw and heard,") but also the Old Testament too

So whoever wrote the New Testament meaning (the writer's) people have to remember that either the writer's would have had to had been ("witnesses",) to what was ("said",) and ("done,") or the writer's would have had to have had ("witnesses",) reporting on back to what they had ("seen,") and had ("heard.")

🙌🏾 love these two.

Thanks 👍

Love your pod bro!

As you apply this thought when reading the Bible, every verse falls apart.

The verses people will see are written differently. Acts 1:20 verse shows the word, ("his,") written on by the writer of the book of Acts while Psalms 69:25 verse shows the word, ("their,") written

I have the impression that the author of Mark was merely a mercenary, a professional writer composing stories in exchange for money for various kinds of clients in Rome, among them a group of a Jewish sect called Christians. Now, with the impressive work of Dennis and Richard, the hunch that Mark was just a hired professional writer is almost a certainty.

If Tabor gets added to this panel then it would imitate Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon. After all the superb content he's been publishing, I'd love to hear his take on Homeric Mimesis. And man, that first question from MacDonald, holy cow, that was a doozy! Great question though. I just finished Virgil's Aeneid and can't help but think Mark's abrupt ending was in imitation of Virgil's similar abrupt ending and that Mark thus intended to do with his Gospel what Virgil did with the Aeneid and wrote an origin story of Christianity. And then Matthew & Luke said, "Hold my beer" and wrote their gospels to correct and one-up Mark. Miller makes a great point that if Mark was sufficient, they could have just re-copied Mark and distributed that but instead, the authors of Matthew & Luke felt the need to modify Mark to correct him in some places, to elaborate on him in others, and to emphasize different parts.

Enjoying the seemingly new format of shorter videos with more streamlined information. Hope this helps grow the channel and those 1-2 and more hour videos are part of the past. Personally I never got past maybe the first 30 minutes

I really like the parable of the vineyards mimesis idea. I think that’s one where it’s inarguable people would have connected that to the Odyssey.

Same thing with the Old Testament too. In the Garden of Eden who was it that had written on down the ("conversation,") that Eve had had with the serpent?

Nice chat.❤

Great work Derek! thank you for bringing the best scholars to the masses! On a lighter note, it's quite amusing to see Christian apologists, with their pre-worked comments here, attempting to reduce the level of academia discussed in this video to the level of a Sunday church sermon. It never fails to make me laugh! These Christians' level of indoctrination and the fear of people opening their eyes to this knowledge is impressive.

I've seen some otherwise intelligent people be very dismissive of MacDonald's work. While I don't agree with every aspect of it, his placement of these authors within a creative community and what that entails is incontrovertible in my view. The only way to arrive at MacDonald being wrong here is through ignorance of the creative process and of creative communities. In effect, denying these aspects of the authors dehumanizes them. It's a really bizarre tendency in my view. You'd expect it from christian scholars to some extent but you get this from secular people too.

And the witnesses would have had to have understood what was also written on in the Tanakh (the Old Testament) too

I am glad Joseph Campbell is addressed here. So often, the word myth is substituted for an untrue story. It is interesting how the ancient myths are used by the biblical authors to bolster credence in the fantastical parts of the Jesus story.

Truth!

I bet MacDonald, Miller, and Walsh could get an alternative theory of Jesus mythicism through peer review, to compete with Carrier's. Just combine all their work together, and you're about there.

Greetings from Poland .

What was written had to be fulfilled apostle Peter said. Then he goes on to say, For it is written in the book of Psalms, Psalm 69:25 verse that is, ('May his place be deserted let there be no one to dwell in it.')

شكرا

First time I ever heard that Homer was not the same sort of greek as the Koine standard! what an eye opener!!!

Great discussion! Love these types of videos

cool, here we go

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Scholars will ignore Dr Dennis because they have to rethink their conclusions and make changes. Once one makes their own mind is hard to change them. I have come across many Christians who also says that some stories don't make sense and we have to pray before reading them for truth and guidance. Praying for that led me away from the Mythological Jesus xD I would love to see Dr Dennis and Dr Tabor together. One who has discovered a lot about the myths around jesus and one who has discovered so much about the historical jesus.

King David's Psalm 69:25 verse shows written, 'May ("their,") ("their," meaning and referring to more than 1 person,) place be deserted let there be no one to dwell in ("their,") tent's.'

Jesus is Cerberus. 🐶 🐶 🐶

Do you think that there is a parallel here to what we in the modern world call the "language of cinema"? There is a lot of thought that goes into a movie that are very well understood and done intentionally by the movie makers, but not picked up on by general audiences. Do you suppose that even with all this Mimeses stuff going on by the authors of the texts, it would only have been understood subconsciously by the general audiences?

I kinda feel like dr jorjanis philosophy applies to this dialogue. His platonic view of the noble lie is profound. People are either goats or sheep. So there has to be TWO psychological explanations as to why people do things. Ine for those who take and one for those who are complacent.

Why does it say Derek Lambent on the screen @4:15? It's Lambert isn't it?

I remember reading homer's the Iliad, the Odyssy and Oedipus Rex in high school and still not seeing a connection with the Gospels.

I wonder why so many people seem to need these stories but some do not?

Whatever was written on in the book of Acts 1:20 verse wasn't written on in the same way as in Psalms 69:25 verse

Which means then that the writer who wrote the book of Acts and the verse of Acts 1:20 verse would have had to written it the wrong way with the wrong word on in the ("Greek language.")

They were forced to be like Greek society due to being concord. it was used because people would have a common knowledge of what was being said so you would understand the message that was based on Hebrew text written before and forgotten by the people.

Now if people read Psalms 69:25 verse then they will see that it is written on in a different way described differently than how apostle Peter took and quoted or repeated it

You can't heal the blind with faith unless the blindness is psychological. I have asthma. Guess what? Faith won't heal that either.

Same thing with Luke 4:18 verse too! Luke 4:18 verse Jesus read Isaiah 61 but the only thing was that the two words, ("the blind,") were written on in Luke 4:18 verse when in Isaiah 61-1 verse those two words, ("the blind,") weren't written on in Isaiah 61-1 verse

thought provoking

Genesis 1:0 Endless question one answer!!! Isaiah 34:16-17. There is a way that seems righteous to a person but Divine question Divine test are at the end of it. Proverb 16:25. Hebreo 4:12.

So if the Tanahk the Old Testament people had back then if they had it and it was written on in the Hebrew language and apostle Peter understood that language and what was written on in Psalm's 69 then he wouldn't have had misquoted Psalms 69:25 verse

Apostle Peter in those day's stood up and spoke saying, Brother's the ("scripture,") had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David (king david that is) concerning Judas. (Judas Iscariot that is.)

The original writing would have been what was written correctly. The word, ("their,") and ("them,") was written in Psalm 69

I cannot with derek wearing a daddy shirt while introducing his guests

what are you waiting for someone else beside the physician, to show you exactly how it is done?

A pairing made in heaven - if there was a heaven: Drs. Miller and Carrier!

Would love to see all those "criterion" analysis (embarrassment, dissimilarity; multiple attestation; cultural and historical congruency), which surprise, surprise, "show" that ALL the stories in the bible are true - and apply them to Homer's works. Would be interesting to show apologists these can be used to "prove" each and every story to which they are applied. (On the other hand, one can simply take any biblical story these "filters" indicate are real, and merely change out the names. Like taking a biography of Washington, use every textual analysis to demonstrate its veracity, and then rewrite it with Lincoln's cohorts' names. Bet you didn't know Lincoln chopped down a cherry tree and threw a silver dollar across the Potomac!)

That Mr Jesus did not spend every moment of his 33-year tenure upon Earth in the healing by touch of every person he could find is a crime against humanity.

Acts 1:20 verse wasn't based on what was written on in Psalms 69:25 verse (which in the Hebrew Bible of Tanahk is Psalms 69:26 verse) because it's not worded the same with the same words that are written

Seems that people miss the obvious. Most try to spiritualize faiths, rather than realize reality. Jesus taught observation of reality - not discerning spirituality. It has never been spirit versus flesh - it's about observable reality of the difference between good and evil. God said it is about observing His teachings to do them - and Jesus taught likewise. Most are deluded by spiritualization because of the paganization of Christianity by Paul and his followers. There was no fall of man - God said: "Surely, if you improve yourself, you will be forgiven. Sin is at the door, its desire is towards you, but you can conquer it." (to Cain) Onediscipletoanother Truetogod Most of our Bibles are perversions and full of contradiction against God given facts that are common sense.

VERY interesting idea, but you never really developed it. This should have been the prologue to a much longer video.

This assumes materialism. That’s a huge blind spot

Interesting discussion as usual. One problem that I find with these scholars, Pastors and other member’s of the clergy, Christians, Atheists. Derek and MythVision is not being open to the possibility that God does or does not exist. Only being open to one view allows for complete Confirmation Bias and GroupThink. In fairness, I consider myself a Philosophic Christian, acknowledging the multiple mistakes made in the writings by accident or intent. My academic and faith journey through Quantum Physics, the existence of an Infinite Metaverse or not, String Theory, the texts, their historical influences, and non-Canonical sources all combine with my actual life experience. I see the same Bias for their opinions as I do with many Pastors. I wish your podcast, Derek, would humbly acknowledge the possibility that you nay be mostly wrong. In that light, not being so giddy for deconversion . That is a poor goal for life.

Sky Daddy in the house enjoy 😢

What?! No supernatural blood magic and no big angry deity controlling humanity! Shame!

Since you guys are so intellectually can you explain the book of Revelation was it also of Greek mythology 🤔 things you can't deny is what we see today has been preach thirty years ago and now it's coming to pass. Hope you guys check yourselves before you find out deeper truths that you once think was all a myth

Are you will you have you condemned Israel’s genocide Derek?

Voice of an eon, Angelus Satani, Ora Pro Nobis Lucifer.

so once again we see, we had a historical character that taught a method for the true, the meek, the good to rule the world. Authors using cutting edge literary devices for that day celebrated it. And it was hijacked...for the obvious threat it was. The divine will establish a just society on this earth according to those principles and according to that man. The ashes of the phoenix will arise again and "thy kingdom come, thy will be done ..on earth as it is in heaven. And there are still out there those with ears to hear, and eventually, if they are mine they are one and the meek and the humble and the true of heart will inherit the earth..according to the teachings of that King. Peace.

5:00 It takes takes testicles of elephantine size to disagree with Jung.

I thought I was going to hear something profound 🤷🏻‍♂️

There has never been a period where there was the freedom to create literature that wasn't approved by those in power, so all religious writers were expected to ordain their power. Even Plato hid his true beliefs in his personal letters. The elites believe their writings give mankind meaning

If religion and spirituality were based strictly on history, facts, and evidence . . . it would be science! You are discussing nothing more than the artistic license of literature and philosophy, both of which are rooted in narrative opinion, and neither of which rest on a foundation of empirical data or truth. Are you are ALL crazy?

Too much academic ‘waffle’ - Long winded questions & answers - Both gentlemen need a lesson in the need to be far more succinct in their conservations - Fine details are for books not for interviews such as this

Myth...... Myth....... Myth....... Start with the first MYTH .... KANE ......WHO IS HE ?..... IS HIS DAD ADAM?.......NO HIS DAD IS THE APPLE!!!!!!!...?? EXPLAIN THAT MYTH FIRST.....FYI ! I KNOW THOSE THAT DON'T BUILD TEMPLES KNOW THAT THEY ARE THE TEMPLE!........WE PIPE CARRIERS SAY THAT JESUS, ELIJAH, AND ENOCH WOULD HAVE MADE GOOD INDIANS BECAUSEVTHEY GO TO THE HILL LIKE WE DO TO COMMUNE DIRECT WITH GRANDFATHER!.......!!!!!!! WHY ARE THE SEVEN THUNDER PROPHECIES KEPT OUT OF THE BIBLE??????????........Hmmmmmmm.......I wonder why you guys don't see that!!!!!!!...... Start buy asking what they are??????.....WHEN I TELL YOU ABOUT THESE SACARED SEVEN RIGHTS YOU WILL KNOW WHY YOU HAVE TO GO THRU FATHER TO GET THERE (THERE ?????? WHERE IS YOUR HEAVEN!.... WHO'S YOUR'S!!!!!!!!!. .......LETS START BUY LOOKING AT THESE SEVEN SACRED RIGHTS AND ONE OF THOSE RIGHTS IS CAPUTURING AND KEEPING SPIRIT...........IT DOESN'T SAY KILL HIM!!!!!!!!!!........... YOU LIFT UP YOUR TEACHER ......NOT KILL HIM AND KEEP HIM HANGING DEAD FOR 2,000 YEARS....... I am nobody and thanks be to God that i don't care ...... If i did how could infinity work thru my hollow bones.........ONE HORN OUT...........PS. What do you call Bull 🐂 mountain that has only one point......ONE HORN...... One Horn out.

These people run from documented miracles like the roadrunner,because it destroys their atheist arguements.

I hope God show you all the way, and you all be saved, i love you brothers❤❤❤

The lord's prayer is the Roman's gift of daily bread and circuses, The Roman's banned meat imports and when the people were hungry they gave them their daily bread. This kept the popular dim witted and thankful to the Roman authorities

I was on a different trajectory from day one. Ok. Let's get started. Take out your textbooks on the crucifixion story as imagery and prophecy. The story may be borrowed but, the content is given a different context. Yahweh judged the heavens themselves and became the Ancient Serpent of Old (snake/ Shining One or Morning Star). Adam, who had a university of trees to learn from, wields the fiery sword as the Lawless One when he judges the Earth. Are they unjust to inflict wrath? Of course not. How else could they judge. They are Transfigured and revealed to be the Ancient One of Days with Christ washing his feet. Earth is Yahweh’s Everlasting Lake of Fire, his furnace of roaring flames where, in his furious wrath, he will gather you up, put you in, and smelt you. If your name is not in the book of life, he will refine you, remove your dross, and purify you until the Devil, the False Prophet, and the Beast are cleansed from you. The crucifixion story is imagery and prophecy for two appearances, the sacrifice and the resurrection. They take place within the same generation, at the end of the ages, the time of the harvest. Warning of the impending Day of the Lord, he was swallowed by the Beast out of the Sea (sacrifice) and spewed out upon the shore as the Beast out of the Earth (resurrection), as the sun beat down upon his head and a burning east wind began the Way of the Lord in the Desert. Adam is a third party to this world and these heavens. Adam ascends beyond the heavens. His domain is forever peaceful. A kingdom was prepared at the foundation of the world. Yahweh's kingdom will be forever peaceful. Adam is the Root and Offspring of Yahweh. Yahweh and Adam have been among you from the beginning. Yahweh goes about in a tent of cloth. Adam was clothed from the nakedness of the day of judgment. David (Yahweh) the Morning Star rides the donkey and the Bride of David rides the foal of the donkey. Save me, I pray, from the hand of my brother Esau! (Gen 32:12 NABO) Esau ran to meet him, embraced him, and flinging himself on his neck, kissed him as he wept. (Gen 33:4 NABO) Jacob was born 'striking at' the heel of Esau. To 'strike at' the head or heel means to protect, watch over, or guard. Isaac blessed Esau saying: Ah, far from the fertile earth shall be your dwelling; far from the dew of the heavens above! (Gen 27:39 NABO) (beyond the heavens) I've decided to put an end to all mortals on earth. The birds of the air and all the great beast will have a great feast. The oceans will be drained and the waters placed above the dome of the sky. No longer will the sun beat down and scorch you. No longer will there be hurricanes and tornados. The waters will refract the rays of light and there will no longer be night. Looking forward, we will all speak the same language. What to you see? A flood story? The Tower of Babel? By all accounts, you should be nothing more than a pillar of salt. Ok. Let's get started. Take out your text books on the crucifixion as imagery and prophecy. Let me know when you are ready. The horse of many colors or, aspects or, perspectives. Verses can be added according to context. White - The wine press I have trodden alone (Isa 63:3 NABO) Red - Do not think that I have come to bring peace (Mat 10:34 NABO) Black - Scales of judgment Pale Green - Christ rising up from the Abyss - all of Hades is at his heel - to strike at heel or head meant to protect, guard, or watch over the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit. (Mat 21:43 NABO) Do not say… 'Who will go down into the Abyss (nether world)?' (…to bring Christ up from the dead) (Rom 10:7 NABO) We saw his star (of Bethlehem) at its rising (Mat 2:2 NABO) Up from the Abyss (Rev 17:8 NABO) The star was called "Wormwood” (Rev 8:11 NABO) It was given the key for the passage to the Abyss. (Rev 9:1 NABO) I hold the keys to death and the netherworld (Abyss). (Rev 1:18 NABO) Its rider was named Death, and Hades accompanied him. (Rev 6:8 NABO)

Self-congratulatory scholarship. Let's all pat each other's backs while the 'scribes' who fashioned this theological servitude terrorize the world into oblivion.

Total anachronism. Modern scholars can only assume the Greek classics predate the Bible.

Good for you - the gospels testify against themselves. Matthew is the only one that seems genuine - and it has been altered. Onediscipletoanother

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