I don't think most women think about the consequences of IVF until the clinic calls you to ask if you are going to pay for the next stage of cryo storage or do you want to go ahead and "dispose" of them. I had a good friend that couldn't get pregnant and had IVF and it didn't even cross her mind until she got that call and she broke down.

My wife works at an IVF clinic, and before she did I always thought the Catholic position on this subject was a bit off. Now, after hearing stories of what they do, and the whole mentality behind it, I fully appreciate the Catholic Church's position and agree they're spot-on in this assessment. It's probably the one issue that's made me change tune on the Church's teaching on contraception. Thank you for this video!

I’m an ivf kid, I was against ivf before I found out, it really affected me and brought a bunch of questions up. Thankfully I don’t deal with it as much as I did but ivf is seriously bad and affects the kids too.

I want to bring up the issue of long time birth control use as a contributing factor to fertility issues once they come off birth control. We need to talk about it. It’s biological usury. You always owe your debt.

Thank you Trent and Stephanie. Currently going back and forth with my friend on this topic and this video has helped a lot! Watched it twice!

My personal dream team :) always learn something useful from you two. Thanks a lot!

I family member who claims to be a Christian that decided be a surrogate mother. Her husband went along with it! Out of the blue she posted herself pregnant and clamming she is doing God’s work. I am grieving and lamenting over some of my family’s choices. Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy.

The arguments were presented with clarity, eloquence and sensibility. Thank you for this 🙏🏻

I'm a simple person. I just saw Stephanie Gray and clicked. Cheers for both !!!

This is a better crossover than the Avengers.

I'm such a Stephanie fangirl! She's so smart and insightful.

I think she meant to say Trent is the MALE version of me...she said "female version of me". He's comfortable enough in his masculinity not to correct her, because he knew what she meant to say.

I know it's not the main topic of this video, but thank you for addressing the pain that comes with an unmet desire for marriage. I'm an Evangelical (though exploring other Christian traditions including Catholicism) who watches your channel, and that's something that I rarely see acknowledged, which has been a source of additional pain for me and other single Christians I know. As to the IVF issue, this was a thought-provoking discussion, as it's not really an issue I've heard much on either side of in my church experience.

Given how there's selection pressure against intelligence, against conscientiousness, for irreligiousness among some parts of the population, for adhd and similar traits, this video would seemingly disprove the last one unless you think we'll have genetic engineering after birth or on our gametes generally

Hi Trent and Stephanie. I just saw Stephanie on Cameron Fradd’s live show this morning. It was so nice to see baby Violet.

I agree with everything said here, and I appreciate that you cover everything from the philosophical arguments to touching on the suffering of infertile people. However, I think the reason that sometimes this argument fails to gain traction both among some Catholics and outside of the Church, is not because Catholics don't know what is true, but that they don't feel the love of the truth that brings them towards it. Trent, you've mentioned many times that in apologetics, you can't just thump truths over a protestant's head and expect them to convert. It take time, relationship, love, and the grace of the Holy Spirit to inspire the knowledge into action. And that's where I think the Church has completely failed infertile couples, at least so far. Too often, I feel like the Church is just telling people NOT to do something without offering them anything else. Think about it. Do you know of any parishes with support groups for infertile couples? Do you hear anywhere near as much talk on channels such as this about the ongoing pain they go through to acknowledge them? Is there even 1/10 of the amount of effort discussing what infertile couples SHOULD do, spiritually or otherwise, to cope with their pain, as there is telling them what NOT to do? Again, I know you both touched on this here, but acknowledging versus offering some real positive solutions or hopes to them are very different things. Most infertile couples are both ashamed and afraid of judgement, and those I encountered consistently tell me that they encounter judgmental people even in their own Churches who assume that they use contraceptives or just don't want children. So they just don't tell anyone what they're going through. With Catholics who do go through with IVF, even when they know it is wrong, I think it is because they shut down emotionally when they hear this. From their perspective, I almost get it, too. Trent, you said here you have 3 children, and Stephanie says she had a child within a year of marriage. Couples with children just telling them essentially "you're not allowed to do this thing that MAY give you what you want, and I'm ok telling you this because I already have what you want." If that's ALL you tell them, I can see how some will fail to listen to your arguments, even if you happen to be correct (which I believe you are). They just can't get there emotionally, because there's nothing to lift up their hearts in this discussion. Just, frankly a cold "sit there in your pain in silence." All of this isn't to say that I don't think you're both right, I do. And this is important information! But I may encourage you to try to offer some more spiritual guidance or help to people in this pain. If you know of any faithful Catholic couples who have been infertile for years, maybe allow them to share their struggles and experiences on your podcast. If you have something good to offer those in pain rather than just lecturing them not to do something that the world is literally telling them will solve their problem, they may be more receptive to Catholic teaching.

Very insightful! Great video!

I think the reason y IVF is wrong is the same reason that abortion is wrong. Abortion created a mentality in which humans are disposable. The two things are totally interconnected. As well as scientific research on human embryos, even when the goal seems good, like curing disease.

"I recently said to a group, "Trent is basically a female version of me."" -Stephanie Grey Connors.

@trenhorn you should have this conversation with Judge andrew Napolitano he has an excellent coherent legal argument which all Catholics need to learn to articulate. His expertise as a lawyer and judge makes his argument best for operating in the secular world. Please make a video with all three of you in it. It would be the most powerful video in history.

Interesting topic 💕🐱

Break out the meme machine: Trent is a female version of Stephanie!

I'm so thankful that IVF helped me, and my husband start and grow our family we are pregnant with our 2nd baby due May 10th! Jewish Orthodox are ok with IVF as long as the embryos are genetically connected to the husband and wife. If IVF is banned watch the birthrate go down.

It would be great to have them both team up and debate two other people on abortion or some other topic.

A lot of surrogates even go through a lot of emotional baggage from separating from the child that was in their room after birth sometimes even deciding that the parents that they agreed to surrogate with are not good enough because there is something wrong with in the household and sometimes the mothers of these children don’t come out the way expect it will jChange their mind because of a defect in the baby or within themselves then what happens does it seem like a good situation

People are not objects and are not to be disposed of.

Based on long standing principles of morality.

Thanks!

The arguments presented here sound like question begging. None of the principals she outlined "unnatural," "separateness," "replacing the marital act," etc in and of themselves sound immoral. Why does ANY of this treat the baby like an object any more than the regular sexual act? It's not like the parents aren't also having sex. The sexual act deepens bonds regardless of whether or not a baby is actually conceived. It's not like pregnancy literally occurs during sex either, it can occur up to 6 days after, so it's not like the christian is REALLY concerned that fertilization occurs during it. They're explicitly placing moral judgements on what kind of deviations from the typical sex act are allowed and not allowed and it's completely arbitrary. Stephanie Gray Connors is clearly question-begging and Trent is going along with it. There's no way he doesn't notice how loose the logic is. I understand not ruffling feathers of your guest, but he should at least give some push-back to her points here.

Trent, r u sleeping? I´m worried..

I'm curious on your stance of IUI. This is how my first child was conceived. My baby was created in my womb and not in a lab however the marital act WAS replaced in a sense. There is no way to possibly know which sperm penetrated the egg as we were encouraged to have intercourse during the time of ovulation to increase our chances. BUT my husbands semen was collected, washed, and inspected for strength and mobility before being injected as closely as they could get it to my waiting egg. Any insight on this scenario?

Just needed to add Lila Rose and it would be the perfect triad.

If you start with the presupposition that an embryo is a person, then of course you’re going to regard it as a subject. But, that assumes the conclusion. Provide a good (secular) argument for the questions: what is a person, what is a subject? THEN we can talk about the ethical implications.

Just stumbled on this video and I have a question. Yes humans are subjects and not object but what is different about using scientific knowledge and tools to help with conceiving vs other aspects of our health? Of course if there is a heart issue, one could have surgery to rectify the problem. From my understanding it’s because the baby is a subject and it’s considered manufacturing rather than aiding a biological process that may have encountered some biological fertility issues and require medical intervention?

Trent seems to be having sleep problems. I can see it in his eyes

Great video! So my question is, If this technique could be perfected with minimal to no embryo disposal or loss and only reserved for two heterosexual married parents. Using only their sperm and egg, would this be acceptable by the church?

How is using technology to conceive not an act of love. I’m pretty sure that a couple who resorts to IVF has been engaging in the marital act so it’s not like IVF is preventing these people from marital relations. Second, IVF is super expensive so any parents that are willing to spend a ton of money in order to hopefully conceive a child is demonstrating their love in a way that exceeds normal marital/parental love. It really doesn’t take much effort to put your genitals together and have an orgasm.

one thing, the idea that "children exist for our good" is *far* from modern. the church has always fought it, but never was able to eliminate the idea. people have had children selfishly for millennia. while the modern world brought many new trials, it is important to know which are bew, and which are old.

My question is since God is not in the IVF equation when does the soul enter the child?

None of her arguments are convincing to a non-religious person.

The other side to this coin is to promote fair wages so that men and women can start families when they are naturally fertile.

It also seems counterintuitive not that I agree with this with the people that say we are overpopulated if that is the case why bring in a baby through in vitro adoption would seem like the better solution there are so many babies that need homes or even more a lot of families are broken now so why not help with a family’s child with that family is struggling

Huge Protestant fan of Stephanie's! Her work is a huge resource for me as I try to witness to my lapsed Catholic friend. I pray they can one day see the richness of the faith they have rejected, even if it's not my specific version. I can honestly say that my younger self would've never thought I'd be trying to make someone more Catholic. 🤣

When someone says "I was conceived by IVF, are you saying I shouldn't exit?" you can respond: "Imagine a person who is conceived by rape. Can we agree that they have the same right to existence as any other person? But are you saying that rape is okay? We're not saying that rape is wrong, and therefore any baby conceived as a result of rape is wrong. We're saying that women have a right not to be raped, AND indeed that babies have a right to be conceived by a father who did not rape their mother." So what's wrong with saying "Babies have a right to not begin their life unnaturally in a lab, at the hands of some stranger, far from the embrace of their mother"?

Just to touch on the part that was about the baby has a right not to exist, I guy in India tried to sue his parents for him being born without his permission 🙄

How would you feel if you learn you are a Test Tube Baby?

I love your videos ma'am. I am interested to now hear your view on ivf. We are desperate and considering it

I addressing like the "...so if IVF is wrong are you saying I shouldn't exist..." arguement when asked within a prolife meiu. I respond simply by ackwoledging the great goodness that they are here to make the even make the argument, the aborted child unfortunately is not, to gives us his or her opinion on abortion.

she's pretty

"That is a lot of Dudley DoRights." - T-ho

33:06 "Whether a spouse comes or not ..." Yeah lots of females have issues in this area. Lovemaking Technique Kennel training for men is much needed. 😆😁 Freudian slip aside, great discussion, wonderful woman. Made me more informed in an area of ignorance, and comments below revealing 1st hand accounts. As humans we try to fix 1 problem and create 7 new ones. Seems we don't apply wisdom and a common thread is hubris, lust for money and/or power. So many times in the medical & scientific field there is financial gain that supercedes morality, virtue, consciousness, ethics, righteousness, truth. Sad that we continue to fail ourselves as we'd be so far ahead if we didn't give in to these shortcomings. Each time those communities hold onto the golden goose, not realizing there are 7 more waiting if they'd let go of the 1st. "Take all you have, give it to the poor, then come follow me."

Good topic, Trent! BTW,FYI, Doug Pine Creek, whose daughter was IVF conceived, is quite livid with you. Regarding IVF, I think it would be good to also point out that 1. the Holy Father has been strong on this topic(surprisingly so) 2. Children conceived this way have much higher incidences of comorbidities, e g longterm cardiovascular pathology and certain other congenital conditions. This information is suppressed (NOT so surprisingly) and a typical google/youtube search will likely land you on an Indian IVF advertiser website telling you 'nothing to see here!'

Shut up, Stephanie is 40? I don't believe she is a day over 25

She’s smart

Comparing the pain of infertility with the pain of a person who desires marriage and can't find someone is smart, though I think people in both cases would consider the other case incomparable. As Humans, we tend to see our suffering as unique. I also like the comparison between the evil of IVF and the evil of rape. It wouldn't be reasonable for a person to assume you think they should not exist if you think rape is evil. You do exist, so it doesn't matter. But that doesn't mean it is good for the person who chooses to rape. Nor is it good for the couple who chooses IVF. Ultimately, this, and surrogacy, comes down to persons feeling that they have a right to another human being, particularly one with your DNA. I always wonder why people feel like they have a right like that, to have another human being. It seems strange. Of course, I understand the desire to have kids, and I have never had to struggle with infertility, at least not yet, anyway. (By the grace of God go I.) Yet, if you desire to love a child, to raise a child, to be responsible for a child, and to watch a child grow and achieve and be filled with joy, you can adopt. There are plenty of children who need adoptive parents who would care for them in such a manner. The only reason you would want to go the IVF route is that you want to experience pregnancy, or you want a child with your own DNA. And at that point, acting in such a way cannot possibly be considered morally good. This isn't an empathetic post, but I think it stands true.

So are sperm banks immoral?

Interesting idea about "mail order babies." Hmmmmm....🤔....could this he why Amazon Prime is increasing their membership fee?

What's the Catholic Church's position on birth control?

Rape , incest,should come with a life sentence , and one night stands should come with a prison sentence, and the sacrament of marriage would the legal way for sex and bring children into this world with a mother and father.

I feel very sorry for this woman’s kid.

According to Trent, “Children have the right not to be conceived by adultery or fornication”. Non-existent people do not have rights… change my mind.

What about Adoption!

Hmm, she was doing pretty poor w the subject matter at hand already, then she has to equate slavery of the past w someone thinking they deserve or have the right to a baby or a relationship. Let's see... My book, my book, my book. Don't drink the Poison

Sorry, have to point out that she slipped up and said "Trent is a FEMALE version of me."

I was the first in my state to be successfully concieved and born through ivf 30 or so years ago. My father couldn't have children naturally. Nothing was wrong with my mother though. I am a mother of 4 now all concieved naturally. Grateful to be here. My mother died while I was still in my 20s 3 years ago now. She was an amazing mother. I believe her daughters who happened to be concieved through ivf were the highlights of her entire shorter life. On another note, while ivf was new she had implanted the only embryos that were actually concieved. So no, not all ivf cases or fertility clinics throw away embryos. I find this view so ridiculous. I'm living proof of the entire point of ivf. As are my own children. All this conversation is to me anyway and all I hear while she speaks is hatred of people like myself. Also, the fact one of her issues with the conception is that it's unnatural and not loving between husband and wife, demishes the value of the embryo? Yet, aren't these the same people who argue that a child concieved in violence (r***) is just as valuable as any other? There are so many holes in these types of arguments. I'm currently 9 months pregnant with my 4th child. 15:32 another ridiculous argument. That is her argument. Children conceived through ivf should not be here. That is literally what her view is and his. She wants the practice to stop, therefore she wants the children born of ivf to stop coming into existence. Jesus Christ the lack of self awareness and narsicism.

While I agree IFV isn’t identical to the usual method, but I fail to see the inherent immorality. You object about it being unnatural and therefore immoral. If you mean unnatural as in, not allowing normal biological processes to achieve its telos, or superimposing technological intervention into a biological process to achieve an otherwise impossible outcome… then you’ve invalidated all medicine and medical interventions. We therefore shouldn’t apply pressure to stop the bleeding and save a person’s life because that’s “unnatural”. I also think the other points brought up hinge on this idea. If this premise falls, the entire objection to IVF fails.

This fall squarely right with the dystopian Frankensteinish idea of some scientists to create artificial wombs.

Remember, as with abortion? "Pro-lifers" are fine with IVF if you're well-to-do. Their attempts at bans don't effect women who can escape to a Free State to have an IVF implantation.

These actions are jointly taken by the couple, open to life, and lead to human beings who are valued as subjects, not treated like objects. If using our minds to bring about human life works, I think it is wrong to oppose this. “No bonding??” They are bound together in their choice to pursue life. Let us say that our birth rates keep dropping and natural sex no longer works to procreate. Would we then say we should just let humanity die out, or should be keep humanity going if we can by using our reason, as reason is a gift from God? Masturbation being involved isn’t a sin here. Why? Because the point about masturbation is the “wasting of seed”, but in IVF it is not wasted. This is the only time male masturbation shouldn’t be a sin. Church needs to rethink this one. God used His reason and capabilities to affect physical matter without physically bonding with Mary. That was the fifth way someone came into existence. And it was IVF of a miraculous kind.

I have a lot of Protestant friends who have multiple children using IVF. What would happen if they ever wanted to convert to Catholicism? What would that confession look like? How could you actually be contrite when the result is your beautiful child?

"I feel my rights have been violated because I was conceived through IVF and not through sexual intercourse." Said no one ever.

Stephanie, didn't you mean "Trent is basically a "male" version of me"? And not "female". LOL!

10:44

Animals also mate so humans r not exclusive to this as she says. Thyve fruit of natural act. The parents decide on it together. This woman filled with superiority. Which is also immoral. People do ivf because thy cannot conceive. The if procedure is infused with love from parents and even docs. Everyone is hoping for the best for the process. The folks thatbconcieve naturally need to get off their perch. She's just made a bunch of ivf kids feel.like thyve been.maunfactured. no God also enables the miracle of science. Please get off ur moral high ground lady.

Woowoo!

Wow claiming slavery and IVF is the same thing and evil, therefore God is evil as we are slaves of God Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

There is not a Bible verse that says ivf is wrong so you can't says it's wrong.

Very brave Mr Trent, deleting my comment! What's the matter, too close to truth to bear, was it?!

honestly, this reasoning is so shallow and baseless

just started and its a slipperly slope fallacy, can't side with catholics on this one. but keep on trying to force this to fit into the moral framework. (and fail).

If Catholics can use medical science to improve and replace the functions of other bodily organs, what is wrong with a loving infertile couple improving the function of the womb by implanting fertilized eggs with modern medical technology? Having children is a virtuous goal, no embryos are harmed, and the marriage is strengthened.

According to the video, you don’t have the right to have children because they’re a gift from God and are subjects. People don’t have the right to gifts nor to other persons. Then that seems to me that you can prohibit people from having children, like the state forcibly sterilizing or mandating contraception. On the contrary, says Trent, you have the right to pursue children… So then I have the right to IVF. Oh no, only through the approved methods... “whether a person comes or not is something we have to accept. We cannot force or manufacture a person”. This is arbitrary and contrived. Yeah, you can do IVF repeatedly. Only God can cause IVF to be successful, so even then only He can give the gift of a child to a family. Nobody is claiming a right to a gift and nobody is claiming a right to “have” a person. Their slavery analogy is ludicrous, BTW

”Trent is a female version of me". Now I am confused. Does that mean Trent is a woman and Connors is a man? xD

I wish that the Bible taught that life begins at conception directly but it is simply an assumption of the Catholic Church.

Babies do not have a right how they are born, be it unnatural caesarian or how they are conceived, neither does an adult have a right to be loved.

The technology is not bad. The technology used in health is not bad. The technology used in children's health is not bad. Regardless of what both people in the video believe God wants, if their children lose their health, they will both turn to technology. If god wants their inborn baby to have a congenital heart defect, they would both agree to technology operating on an inborn baby's heart and then consider that to be god's will. For someone who is not a believer, people begin to be people when they have the necessary neurological development to be a person. A seed is not a tree.

The lord gives and the lord takes away, if IVF is wrong God wouldn’t allow it, but God does allow it ,therefore it’s a miracle, my sister was on IVF and had 8 miscarriages and finally she had a baby boy, he’s a true miracle. What the doctors do with the cells and sperm collected is down to them .

I fully believe the Catholic Church believes that sex is immoral even inside of marriage. simply because if a person who was married is elected as Pope him and his wife are required to take a vow of celibacy. and why the church in all its wonders and Glory requires priest to live a life akin into Paul and not Peter who was married. and today's modern world in the church it would be extremely rare to find a married person to Pope.

She sounds like she's trying really hard to sound enthusiastic and bubbly, but it comes off as so fake.

I love how you all think you can just philosophize your way around issues.. as if there was no higher authority- like an “infallible” one - that could override EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID with one decree or statement from the 🪑 Hilarious!! 😂 Oh sorry I forgot your current Pope is a universalist 😅👍👍