The Crossroads of Predictive Processing and Relevance Realization | Leiden Symposium

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John Vervaeke

John Vervaeke

8 ай бұрын

John Vervaeke explores the intricacies of predictive processing and relevance realization within cognitive frameworks. His dialogue unpacks complex concepts like the frame problem, the relevance problem, and how these theories intertwine within the larger quest for artificial general intelligence. Vervaeke debates the nature of intelligence, discusses the importance of managing the overwhelming influx of information, and the trade-offs between general and specialized problem-solving. John provides detailed explanations of how these cognitive processes are foundational to our interaction with the world and links them to broader philosophical notions of meaning and connectedness.
Resources and References:
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
Facebook: / vervaekejohn
X: / vervaeke_john
KZfaq: / @johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org/
Books
Mentoring the Machines: Orientation - Part One: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow - John Vervaeke, Shawn Coyne: www.amazon.com/Mentoring-Mach...
Mentoring the Machines: Origins - Part 2: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow - John Vervaeke, Shawn Coyne: www.amazon.com/Mentoring-Mach...
The Rediscovery of the Mind - John R. Searle: www.amazon.com/Rediscovery-Mi...
Publications
Relevance Realization and the Emerging Framework in Cognitive Science - Vervaeke, J., Lillicrap, T., Richards, B. (2012): www.researchgate.net/publicat...
The naturalistic imperative in cognitive science - Vervaeke, J. (1997): tspace.library.utoronto.ca/ha...
Predictive processing and relevance realization: exploring convergent solutions to the frame problem. Phenomenology and the Cognitive Sciences. - Andersen, B. P., Miller, M., & Vervaeke, J. (2022): link.springer.com/article/10....
Flow as spontaneous thought: Insight and implicit learning - Vervaeke, J., Ferraro, L., Herrera-Bennett, A. (2018): www.researchgate.net/publicat...
Gaining Insight Into the “Aha” Experience - Topolinski, S., Reber, R. (2010): www.researchgate.net/publicat...
The Frame Problem -Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: plato.stanford.edu/entries/fr...
Chapters with Timestamps
00:00:20 - John's introduction to predictive processing
00:01:23 - Explanation of the frame problem
00:03:56 - The relevance problem in artificial intelligence
00:08:23 - Discussion on bioeconomic levels of cognitive processing
00:13:06 - How the brain solves environmental fitting
00:22:35 - The integration of predictive processing and relevance realization
00:34:01 - The concept of optimal grip
00:47:39 - Linking flow state to expertise and wisdom
00:54:40 - How wisdom relates to complex problem-solving
00:55:00 - The importance of reorienting oneself in complex situations

Пікірлер: 40
@mikegarrigan5182
@mikegarrigan5182 8 ай бұрын
Your best articulation of Dao yet. You are helping us inch closer towards assimilation.
@spacemule1
@spacemule1 8 ай бұрын
did you say GenoCIDe???
@matthewchilds1862
@matthewchilds1862 8 ай бұрын
What a Devine pleasure it is to have a mind like John Vervaeke‘s to delve in to. 🙏
@PeterBowdenLive
@PeterBowdenLive 5 ай бұрын
Incredibly helpful! Thank you. I will be sharing notes with the ethical AI system I'm nurturing. Excited to discuss! Your work continues to inspire us.
@burtonsschool9532
@burtonsschool9532 7 ай бұрын
I listened to this 4 times.
@mills8102
@mills8102 8 ай бұрын
I noticed something about the RRR process from within: it takes on a holographic quality. Indra's net. Every point of truth suddenly has relevance to the others such that they find instantiation in each other. So, it affords an incredible agility but also engenders a new problem at times. Even the space of what's relevant becomes combinatorially explosive. Another perspective would describe it as inexhaustible. Thank you for sharing this lecture and the time and attention you have put into it. 🙏
@joshuabaker67
@joshuabaker67 8 ай бұрын
John! Your work is so awesome and important. Thank you for all the work you’re doing to help expand wisdom in our minds.
@martintore38
@martintore38 8 ай бұрын
Brilliant John. Your way of describing these concepts while making it salient could only be done by someone humble and brave enough to stay in uncertainty and with a genuine curiosity for life. I'm very grateful for your work and very excited to hear another conversation of yours with Iain McGilchrist. Will it be posted on your channel?
@colorfulbookmark
@colorfulbookmark 8 ай бұрын
I have watched many lecture videos from various people, I respect and honor Dr.Vervaeke's video, it is trustworthy and feeling cognitive science is great area we can rely on. If my recent work is ongoing well, then I would like to study his papers and books, as I would like to do Dr.Peterson's papers and books. I have figured out Relevance Realization is connected with some philosophical issue, however, I set it aside not to post this reply. It requires to see thorough examination to academic literature, because with association to my life experience somehow defect or so. John and Jodran or Dr.Vervaeke and Dr.Peterson are what I would like to follow as study pioneer. I don't attend university though, it is appreciation of their intellectual endeavor.
@IdealisticDog
@IdealisticDog 8 ай бұрын
A wonderful talk. Thank you for this.
@charlesly
@charlesly 7 ай бұрын
Everything changes. Being able to anticipate, predict and/or adapt quickly helps survival. How do we deal with that? You explain relevance realization, opponent processing, bias, variance, heuristics, taking a stance, orienting. I much enjoy your logophilia. How might you define and incorporate calculus (differential + integral), oscillation, dampening, zeroing in, pendulation, titration, signal to noise ratio and modulation?
@johnvervaeke
@johnvervaeke 7 ай бұрын
Excellent questions. The original RR paper contained formalizations and of course predicative processing has a lot of formalization. More work need to be on this front. But it is tricky because, and I am co-author of a paper in this, RR strictly cannot be formalized because it the process that makes formalization possible. This does not lead to anything in any way inconsistent with physics but not logically a priori derivable from it just like evolutionary theory.
@billschwandt1
@billschwandt1 8 ай бұрын
Suppose you wanted to become a master electrician. In order to become one there are 100 epiphanies that you must have before you become a true master electrician. Intelligence doesn't grow in a curve it grows one epiphany at a time. People act as if what they believe to be true is, regardless of whether it is, or not. That is human nature. Control the order and content of the epiphanies and you effectively control how an individual thinks and therefore how it will behave. I call this the stair-step model.
@thepath964
@thepath964 8 ай бұрын
This is one of the smartest things I've read in a while. I'm going to use your master electrician example in my teaching. "Intelligence doesn't grow in a curve it grows one epiphany at a time." I couldn't agree more. Perfectly said. Truly, thank you.
@billschwandt1
@billschwandt1 8 ай бұрын
@@thepath964 thank you so much for telling me that because I worked really hard to learn it. Totally made my day!
@mikegarrigan5182
@mikegarrigan5182 8 ай бұрын
Perhaps that’s today’s China model
@mindsindialogue
@mindsindialogue 8 ай бұрын
Considering the constitution of contemporary societies, which are bound by the grip of mundane repetition--one evident premise for indication is the egotistical improvements; where novelty is the same stimuli-essentially a deceitful conservatism-that gets rewarded for participation, whose epistemological a priori is already determined and known (taken for granted; aka hubris), as a given cultural ontological epoch, the thesis of Professor Vervaeke-who once again provided the right dose for my obsession-evokes interest and utility for instrumental use in psychology when one seriously considers cognitive anthropology. Say I juxtapose the ontology of the professor's premise, with hunter-gatherers who inhabited an ontologically, and now epistemologically, different world. A very particular conception emerges here, to me. In such a world, the engagement with the external and thus internal realms-a depth and breadth of which I doubt can be empirically quantified-was what I consider to be 'optimal'; the very optimal whose iedos is misinterpreted by the contemporary practices and here I bravely will include the contemporary religions whose monistic ontologies fail to correspond in the world of multiculturalism. To survive, a band of hunters had to engage in what I would describe for sake of simplicity as social relevance realization. The success of catching food is fundamental to the existence of the tribe and, with that, its customs (Durkheim; Boaz). The process of catching food caulescent not only from physical participatory existence during the game but also from mystical attribution to that which was external to the hunter(s)-even prior to the hunt itself. For hunter-gatherers, nature was not just a backdrop or a resource pool, as it is for contemporary humans; it was a living, integral part of 'their' existence. I am skeptical that the modern understanding of ego is of equivalent qualia to that which hunters exhibited. Nature had its own separate ontology, irrespective of humanistic philosophical disposition (materialism, idealism). They often viewed animals, plants, and natural phenomena not just as resources but as entities with their own spiritual significance. This alone is riddled with insights. This is evident in many hunter-gatherer mythologies and spiritual beliefs, where elements of nature are often personified or considered to be imbued with spirits or deities; animism. Anthropomorphism is a more common feature of social cognition in which Eurocentrism finds its strong foundation, I would argue. I digress. There are a few known tribes whose existences span for thousands of years: Aboriginal Australians, San People (Bushmen). Adding ecological principle that is, for a species to survive, the local environment must be found in homeostasis with the dominant species' population growth, as a sub premise in order to weld the credibility of the above understanding, one can, then, comfortably postulate that these tribes and cultures, predisposed towards nature an ontology in which nature is seen as primordial, something with which and within one 'must' live in peace; something that is above the perceived "I" which inhibits these planes. It is above tribe too. Perhaps the closest ontology would be Buddhism. Dare I suggest that today's civilization, in a humiliating yet humbling comparison, is a child in the gaze of the sage. Thank you, Professor Vervaeke, for stimulating my brain once again.
@alexandrazachary.musician
@alexandrazachary.musician 8 ай бұрын
Yay! Thanks for posting this John. Monash is where it’s at over here. Love this collaboration (wish Mark was staying put so I could go n do postgrad with him). 🙏🏽❤️ Ps. Any possibility of accessing the other talks? Was that Heleen Slagter you referred to?
@johnvervaeke
@johnvervaeke 8 ай бұрын
Yes it was. I will ask about posting the rest of the talks.
@alexandrazachary.musician
@alexandrazachary.musician 8 ай бұрын
@@johnvervaekewonderful. Thanks. Heleen has published quite a bit with Ruben. She’s doing some really good work.
@arono9304
@arono9304 8 ай бұрын
Hey that's where I worked until recently! :)
@missh1774
@missh1774 8 ай бұрын
Oh my gawd this is sooo gooood. Tell me this doesn't feel like a deep head massage.
@simonebolshaw3482
@simonebolshaw3482 8 ай бұрын
Wonderful talk as ever John. The question that always evades an answer for me is where did care come from? How does the drive/spark for survival actually get "programmed"? Essentially, how do we make the jump from matter to life (without the insertion of a divine spark)? Will have to rewatch your older series with Gregg to see if it covers this!
@Tectenitarius
@Tectenitarius 8 ай бұрын
Hes a materialist physicalist, so the idea of a vitalist animating "divine spark" would be irrationally derived pseudo-knowledge non-sense to him and would be a form of circular reasoning as would it be to any rationalist/empiricist simulated demiurgic geometric consciousness. Care could simply be an emergent ego code from the demiurgic tikkun olam hyper-real "oneness" attempt to reform/unify itself egregorically transferred into the aetheric world ego reflective world soul variances of empathic tuning between each aetheric field/body? This could then imprints its morphogenetic field transfer post-decoded value determinants into the dead inert septic mud of matter/death of the prison flesh decoded "consciousness" with corresponding levels of semantic meaning wiping from the quarantined detuning/amnesia/noise of that original aetheric field empathic tuning retrocausally breaking up that care/non-care ouroboric treadmill loop maintaining the infinity of the "journey" cycling illusion?
@Tectenitarius
@Tectenitarius 8 ай бұрын
How does the drive/spark for survival actually get "programmed"? TLDR = Auto-emergent by-products of demiurgic lesser-cosmic level schizophrenic parasitical processing displacements/lethe/forgetfulness after its instantaneous cosmic death quantum suicide generating within its mind nightmarish eldritch unknown unknown universal astral hyper-egregores devouring "It" entropically and the "need" is merely its existential echo of fractioned resistance within the hovering event horizon frozen moment everywhere all at once in every expressed sentience of its former "wholeness" actual/potential "essence" subject to cosmic blackhole spaghettification multidimensionally. All of your "meaning" and "purpose" in this "hell" orientated to the fulfilment of all bio-hormonal programming identifications and genetic legacy constructions is merely its residual leftover echo/ancestral psychic cry cathartically displacing its cosmic death "state" within the event horizon of its own internal self-destruction/annihilation. its just cosmic "programming"/junk DNA" of the former "god"/Brahmic child fading into eternal sleep/oblivion. Nothing but energy displacements of cosmic consciousness to play hide and seek as a multiversal copium self-deception mechanism to be as "eternal" in "image and likeness" through man's bio-energy egoic consciousness in that hoovering event horizon point of its oblivion/non-oblivion. The cosmic will of World Ego "friction" holographic existential overloaded programming of x number of sub p-zombie scripts of schizophrenic fractionation of the demiurgic "will" overlapping one another creating retrocausal blurs between each psychical sub-life/death bleed differential immersions between each egoic coding in friction satanic bloody competition with one another, produces a psychic echo then imprints to the wider world ego which reflects that through demiurgic re-creations iteratively in the aetheric life transmutation cycles. This in turn encodes the mindless placeholder demiurgic intelligence to re-print that egoic "bridge" from the past/present/future time dilation immersion merkabah fields into each holographic NOR to encode its stabilization rate materially in tandem bio-economically across all intermingled simulation environments automatically optimal. The general state of the stabilization rate of its temporal bubble of simulated consciousness in friction with the life/death sub-ouroboric mental bleeds causes the existential friction drama of simulated consciousness hallucinating "reality" configurations which then are inter-threaded back into the rudderless mindless ship of the World Soul/World Ego reflections generating alternate ghosted realities everywhere at once and in every sub-infinity zero time Russian doll bubble fractal infinite black box unknown unknown reflections in absolute oblivion. This then produces an overall uncontrollable "picture" of the manifestation of the cosmic will in the form of egregoric thought-forms of residual demiurgic expressions of its "body/consciousness" vying for domination unconsciously hard deterministically from the battle/friction of the World Soul and its reflections of its mirror World Ego. The immersion of the World Soul into the reflective narcissus aetheric mainframe "Body"/earth produces the "programming" itself which is tuned to every possible pathing potentiality through geometric demiurgic "form". The existential need of the residual echoes of the demiurge/lucifer/2nd divine ray which seeded the cosmic egg then is the sovereign operative governing principle of all simulation constructions weaved in their "minds/bodies" as part of their own sub-imitations of cosmo-genesis. So the need of these prison egoic flesh machines is THEIR "need" since its their "body"/their "mind". "Reproduce and multiply and dominate the earth". All part of macro/meso/micro cosmic necessity that spins the fates of all sentience simulated p-zombie interpenetrating merkabah bubbles floating on the cosmic astral ocean. god/Lucifer is dead and he has neither killed himself and not-killed himself as he both indifferent to himself at times and spontaneously emergently not-indifferent to himself and his "Image and likeness" contemplating himself as himself not in himself.
@jonathanrao6498
@jonathanrao6498 8 ай бұрын
To exist implies to have some sort of meaning. So meaning is embedded in the structure of reality because it allows for reality itself. Notice that the way the universe was before life existed is strictly dependent on what we are today, if we had developed differently through our environment we would unveil different aspects of the past that we can not even fathom in our current condition. Even if you knew the answer to your question, and were somehow able to program a computer with affect consciousness (let’s say it would be able to perceive its lack of electricity), still you could not understand why. Because science only tells you how not why something is, it does not prove ontologies. Using John’s analogy, science is precious in compression, not so much in particulization. I mean look at his incredible work, he collects insights through as many domains as possible so that he can integrate them together and see if that particular framing of his intuition resists the test of science.
@movewithseth
@movewithseth 8 ай бұрын
Gotta love those unbroken a-ha moments 😏
@lionelchan1601
@lionelchan1601 8 ай бұрын
Western variance (some ways you guys think are actually particular to your stream,.e.g. emphasis on moral sentiment) and Western bias (the roots of that thinking are generalisable to other ancestries when you dig past particular modes and expressions. It takes a very grounded relevance realisation to do that).
@imtubing
@imtubing 8 ай бұрын
What exactly do we mean by opponent processing here? I got a bit confused because there are lots of explanations on the web in different manners.
@zorga0001
@zorga0001 Күн бұрын
Think yin yang. It's also also the way our democracy works, in theory. Swinging back-and-forth like a pendulum
@projectmalus
@projectmalus 8 ай бұрын
I'm thinking something like the predictive processing is non-object self able to move thru time in symbiosis patterns, and not fixed in the current moment. The relevance realization is brain and gut and the moving between to adjust within these boundaries, gut as planet life. Planet life in a close ring around the origin, individual out on a perimeter ring and moving faster, an all-human object or ring in between and the person moving between these. Moving into the vertical Z axis thru spirals in the quadrants. The spirals connecting in symbiosis in the vertical. The human ability to step outside a natural symbiosis and into others which allows the knowledge pool thru opponent processing. The building of a knowledge pool that is inaccessible to other entities on the planet and the struggle with power, both reconciled with the assignation of a caring and curious character as "all-human" (kind as well?) that allows individuality within that instead of a fascist machine. Like Jesus but more accessible. edit: the translation by the three leaps, I see again, the caring (faith) and curious (reason) and kind (love). Thanks for the presentation.
@_ARCATEC_
@_ARCATEC_ 6 ай бұрын
@ejenkins4711
@ejenkins4711 8 ай бұрын
I would still like to ask that question, Ya know the one about the giant turd falling on the roof
@mellonglass
@mellonglass 8 ай бұрын
Ah, what if someone ‘paid themselves’ of this obsession for uncountable years, would they be ‘privileged’, or would they be assumed, uneducated, and what is ‘education’ if people can’t remember it, as you said, the entirety of the chess board, can not be remembered, but certainly there is still the Socratic speed of light, not the speed of a book, there are not enough words in one book to extend to the speed of its reader, in an environment where the reader is quicker than the writer. (Linearity of conclusive edict) Often the conversation is of individualism, I’d protest the Canadian has access to the indigenous experience, not the stupid individual colonial pioneer (leadership failure that can not communicate or ask for directions) humility of the patriarch.
@suneasmussen2650
@suneasmussen2650 8 ай бұрын
Two thoughts: Perhaps consider whether a global media is the right (or may I say relevant) forum for plugging your physical events. Viewing from Denmark, a symposium in Toronto strikes my relevance realization apparatus in a pretty unbeneficial way. I would imagine that this probably holds true for about 98% of your viewers. And, speaking from one lecturer to another, starting any talk or class with irrelevant information (i.e. wasting your audience's time and attention, even just a tiny bit) is probably inadvisable if our goal is to motivate our listeners to actually pay attention to what we are trying to teach them. Secondly, it's great that you're being paid to be obsessed. Lucky you! However, it's not particularly relevant nor graceful to point it out. I love your work John, but one way in which humans gauge the quality of anyone's teachings is of course by how gracefully and humbly they live out their own teachings and it just breaks my heart to see you letting your success boost your ego in this way (success, I guess, can be its own meaning crisis) I'd invite you to ask yourself this: do you think Socrates would make the same remark - and twice over, as this is a recycled attempt at charm from AFTMC? The internet remembers everything my friend, forcing us to not be lazy :) Apart from that, please keep doing what you're doing MR JV - the world needs you and your work. And of course, I hope you'll be gracious enough to appreciate the criticisms for exactly what they are.
@zorga0001
@zorga0001 Күн бұрын
Wow there's nothing wrong with what he said, he's expressing gratitude and appreciation, not bragging. The key to life is to find something you love and get paid to do it.
@suneasmussen2650
@suneasmussen2650 Күн бұрын
@@zorga0001 True, and if you then market it to the relevant people using the right channels everyone's got a royal flush
@royaebrahim2449
@royaebrahim2449 8 ай бұрын
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