I love that you use the original Warcraft 3 scenes with Arthas and not the Reforged ones. Excellent vid, Nobbelino! Love it, as always.

" I do hope they don't make Sylvanas that dumb." The way I LoLed at that.

Random aside, but MAD props to the VA for Derek Proudmoore; that bit was painful to listen to.

I'm looking forward to the Titans deeming us a problem.

They've shown that the souls stolen by Frostmourne are fragmented souls. There are pieces of people just out there somewhere. Uther is still missing a fragment of himself. Sylvanas should have a fragment of her soul out there. It would be pretty cool to see these pieces return.

One thing I've always loved about your channel is how you always go really deep into the lore. Warcraft is a really easy series to make fun of, especially when you consider how hit-and-miss its release history has been, but you have a passion and a dedication to the story that I've not seen anywhere else. Thank you for helping me get into Warcraft - your videos always bring a smile to my face!

Man i cant wait to go back and see what Illidan is doing

Interesting that when possessed Anduin returns to the Jailer, the Jailer tells Sylvanas that "The vessel performed flawlessly". Either he was unaware of the momentary loss of control when Anduin fought back, or he didn't want to let Sylvanas know that his power is not absolute. He also seems unaware (or just doesn't care) that Sylvanas may be having second thoughts about allying with him.

This doesn't change Arthas at all. All the choices he made that were brought up were made all before he took up Frostmourne. And the Jailer would rather influence, instead of take control if necessary.

"We can't even choose who we--" spend our afterlife with. Got it.

The road to Maw is paved with good intentions

We get beaten by the Jailer He gets out to the living universe We free Sargeras Sargeras vs Jailer smackdown

Does anyone else keep seeing Anduin jumping the Archon and think, "damn girl, just hold up ya spear"?

Also did they explain what happened to Nathanos after he died? He taunted Tyrande that if she kills him - he’s just going to meet Sylvanas in the Shadowlands. But it looks like he’s not there - what happened exactly? Asking because I kind of miss this grouch tbh.

Because the story demands it, not because it makes sense.

I've said this in posts of other videos but I see the same story arc happening again. It's Illidan's redemption story and Sargeras's story as you say in your video. The Jailer is traveling down a bad path in order to achieve something good - free will in the afterlife (and of course his own freedom). And he doesn't care who or what he destroys to get there. That's why I believe that 9.1 will end with him achieving his goal which will open the way for the First Ones to return in 9.2 to reestablish order.

I don't know. I just don't know. I feel like this story has turned into a silly campfire game, where one person begins a story, passes it to the person to the left, and so on and so on and so on and so it goes...

What if sylvanas is fooling the jailer and the reason for her feeling regret towards anduin is that she was forced to do it, not to raise suspicion?

Here's a thought. All the runes that show up, frostmourne, the helm, anduins armor, they all appear in the form of controlling someone. These same runes are on the jailers body too and in the cinematic of him chained up, they are all around him too... What if, those runes aren't actually an extension of his power but the very thing that keeps him imprisoned in the maw? He's broken his chains but yet can't leave, the runes are all over his body, I think that those runes were actually created by the pantheon that locked him away in the maw and he's merely found a way to use them for himself. There's also the fact theres the rune carver, he's a prisoner of the jailer, if the runes were the jailers power and the rune carver was a way to use that power, why would he lock the rune carver up? Maybe the rune carver was the jailers jailer put there by the pantheon? And now the jailer is turning their power against them!

this one point "We can't even choose who we" cut, music is off, she holds back the words, change it.. music is back. I want to know what she wanted to say. who you love ? or something else? she clearly hesitate and the look she has on her face while saying this. I think that this is an important thing too bc its so a tiny detail in the whole conversation...

I believe that Sylvanas is starting to see the Jailer's true colors. In the 9.1 cinematic he says "they will all see that death was never meant to be chained." Clearly implying his plans go beyond the shadowlands.

Please I need more videos, I love listining to them while I work. And I've now watched all 409 videos in the past 4 months, I WISHHHHHH you had anothrr 400 I could just magically find. I absolutely love your videos and my days at work become so easy and keeps me so positive when I can listen to them all day.

But what if she didn't dominate him? We didn't see her choice. What if she and Anduin made a deal, and she's watching over him while he's giving in to the jailer's control so that when the time comes she can release him and they can take the jailer out together?

I'm going take a stab at the lore on why sylvanas was concern with anduin in that cinematic. She's not dumb like everyone thinks or having regrets, in my opinion she is concern about Vengeance from the maw walkers/Heroes of Azeroth, almost every foe in WoW have been strike down due to vengeance. Sylvanas "mind control" works best on those whose minds are in feeble and in strong doubt. If auduin would of joined on his own accored then she COULD of had a chance in manipulating some of the maw walkers into the jailor ranks but since the jailor forcefully took auduin mind she knows Vengeance strikes deep for the Heroes of Azeroth. (Which could also go great with tyrande story of night warrior)

I allways liked to think that the Jailer was like "these runes? ya, they are the runes of those who put me here. The runes of our common enemy, which i have now mastered. wanna party up?"

I don't see how it's such a retcon, arthas said in wc3 that he only listens to the blade now

You could argue Sylvanas' choice wasn't one made of free will. In fact I believe Sylvanas points that out. Everyone wants to redeem Arthas for being 'controlled' by Frostmourne. Then turn away and hate on Sylvanas for being 'controlled' by Silvermourne.

I think the look on Sylvanas' face at the point of Anduin's return is for a few reasons. 1) I think she's starting to see things for what it is. She's been so blind in her quest to stop herself going to the maw that she's made choices that have been terrible. And with how the Jailor chose not to save their ally (The Sire) and how he's using Anduin as a puppet is making her realise that maybe she is with the wrong team. 2) She's/The Jailer's controlling Anduin the same way almost as to how the Lich King controlled her. She knows how it feels and she felt how much it was to hate the person who done that to you, she's obviously feeling some sort of regret that she's had to have it come to this - it's why she wanted to "convince" Anduin in the first place and always tried to give him the willing choice to come to their side. 3) I don't think Sylvanas is as ruthless and evil as people think she is. I myself am terrified of death and in a world like Azeroth, I don't know how far I would go if I had the power to stop my death (I probably would stop at genocide ngl), but I can relate to how she would do anything so that her biggest fear doesn't happen. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel any regret or sadness, but she feels she's doing what needs to be done to prevent the inevitable, so she has to appear stalwart and have confidence in what she is doing is right so in her head it justifies what she does and that it will make it all worth it. I honestly don't want to see Sylvanas die. Or if she does at least I hope she gets the afterlife she wants. I would like to see her redeemed despite everyone feeling the opposite as I completely relate to having that fear of (even though it is different in the real world) seeing that blackness, being powerless to stop it, having no control and finally giving up and then nothingness and so having the sympathy and empathy towards her character - it's partly why I love her complexity as a character so much I really don't want her to just be wrote off as becoming a villain we end up either hating or just feeling sorry for. I truly hope she gets the Illidan treatment.

6:05 After "I serve the horde" Garrosh response was: *Watch your clever mouth, bitch.* has been changed to Watch your clever mouth in Shadowlands Patch 9.0.2 (2020-11-17) Garrosh, the Warchief Iron Horde Needs!

I'm still convinced that Sylvanas was trying different angles of the deal right up to the end of BFA. Arrows in the quiver applied to every ally that she had, that is the mentality that she was said to have for so many years of her character arc. I agree that the look on her face when dealing with Anduin is one of self realization, but I think it is more of a moment of her recognizing that she is the the tool to the Jailer now, and that she is not as in control of what she had anymore. A subtle change in power happened with the Jailer's line "we have come too far to give up now" or something like that. That wasn't motivation, that was a command, and Sylvanas knew it. Just my 2 cents.

Awww they look so cuite on Aladdin's carpet

Ye Arthas was influenced but many of his actions were his own so that's why he must go to revendreth to atone for his sins as Arthas Menethil and not the lich king he became through the powers of frostmourne and the helm of Domination

Personally I think the thing with Arthus was a case of him been a compass with a magnet such to the side, it no longer points to true north and that makes it easy to wander off course and become lost, I'm talking about after he picked up frostmorn, before that it's just a case of incredibly hard choices and maybe picking the wrong path? But as I said to my brother once when he started to freak out on a rollercoaster just before it went over the drop ""it's too late now"" after Arthus has started the Purge it was too late if he had called it off sounded the retreat his men would have been overran.

"… A whole new world(of warcraft), don't you dare close your eye(of jailer)"

"You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

I think the difference between Arthas & Anduin in these cases are that Arthas had outside forces present him with problems that required impossible solutions. The DreadLords & the Lich King forced Arthas to question his morality and gradually got him to a place where he was willing to take that final step away from the light. Anduin is literally just a puppet. Nothing more to it. If we manage to break him free (which I really hope we do), Anduin will immediately be on our side again. Nothing about his core character changed from this, aside from perhaps some physical or spiritual scars.

All we do is follow these lore characters about while the story unfolds around them. And if we beat the bad guy it turns out we actually lost or they just run away until the next exposition dump is needed.

Love these videos the most!

I've recently finished reading Rise of the Lich King. It is indeed an amazing book! What I got from it was that Arthas was groomed. He was influenced, pushed in the right direction by the lich king, and later Frostmorne. His headstrong personality and obsession with saving his people played him right into the Lich King's (and by extension, the Jailer's) hands. It was a slow transformation, and it's difficult to pinpoint any one moment where he turned evil. Arthas knew what he was doing, but Frostmorne's influence led him to suppress or ignore his former human feelings, and later, to kill his humanity all together. The jailer held out a carrot on a stick, and it was Arthas' choice to follow it.

I just can’t get past how many chances Arthas had to turn away, but kept going down the road to damnation. I don’t get how many hold him in reverence.

For me it's difficult to see the story as a whole, I always felt that they never had planned it from the beginning thus far and so the motivations of the characters maybe have changed over time. I think it was stated by Blizzard themselves, that they could not have forseen how successful the games would play out(warcraft 3 first and wow later on.) They do a rather decent job to put it all together right now, but sometimes something feels a bit strange. That beeing said, for Sylvanas and Anduin: Do we know for sure that she was the one who forced him into servitude to the jailer? Maybe Zovaal grew tired of her tries to convince Anduin and did it himself? One way or another I don't see regret in her face, it's sadness. Maybe it reminds her of her own fate (beeing made to serve without a choice) or she's just sad that she could not convince him. I don't think it has something to do with the jailers intentions, its a personal thing between Sylvanas and Anduin.

I saw someone on twitter (unfortunately, I don't remember who) suggest that Sylvanas hesitated in the 9.1 cinematic because she looked at Anduin and thought, "oh, crap, I just helped make a new Arthas!"

Sylvanus will somehow be freed from the jailor's influence, do some penance, and then maybe replace the Arbiter at the end of the Shadowlands expansion? I dunno, I just dont want her destroyed, I adore her too much.

what i like to think, is since frostmourne came from the legion which was "stolen" from the maw, then she would think its the legions fault that she died. when she sees the jailor she thinks back to frostmourne but dismisses it.

Sylvanas was acting like Arthas/The Lich King as early as Cataclysm, with her raising of the dead of Gilneas and such....her forcing others to serve is nothing new. Why have her be upset about it now? She apparently has some sort of respect for Manduin, but beyond that what's so different here from all the other bullshit she's been pulling over the years? EDIT: Ok, I should keep watching, Nobbel makes the same point a few seconds after I typed this

Idk to me it just seems like floundering with her character, first they kept similar story beats from wc3, up until cata. In cata id say they did great with the whole "i serve the horde", and then after that I've no idea what they want with her, they went from given role of leadership, doing her best, but wait shes going bloodthirsty and warmongering, but wait all of it was in service of a greater plot to conquer everything for an ends justify the means scheme, all of that felt kind of eh but I could see it, then she wanted wrathgate to happen i thought was a needless retcon that made sense only with the fact they want to justify she has the capacity for war crimes, but this final BUT WAIT were doing redemption hints now... Feels like they want to do everything with sylvanas, have her be the anti-hero, have her be the war crime villain, focus on her making all of her own choices, and now still give her a redemption, so removing consequences of those choices, or at the very least deeply lessening them, completely undermining the part where she is in control of her own actions. Ofc the pinnacle of this will be if they even attempt to redeem Arthas, at that point ill treat this entire story as a legitimized fan-fic.

I think the best case scenario for Sylvanas is she realizes she's been played like a fiddle and goes all out trying to get vengeance on the jailor.

One difference that I see between much of what Sylvanas is experiencing with Anduin and past actions, is that she is having more interactions with Anduin that she has ever had before. While I am primarily an Alliance player, I do have hoard characters. As I see this, and having watched nearly all of your videos over the years, Sylvanas has never before interacted why anyone she has ‘had’ turned. Now she is not raising someone from the dead, but rather she I seeing someone living being turned against their will, and coming face to face with her own experience and remembering how she felt when Arthus took her will from her. It was the thing she hated most...not just being undead, but having her will taken away from her, the memories of what done to her, and now the knowledge that this is like what was done to Arthus ultimately leading to his demise!

I feel more that in that moment she became aware she created a new arthas... and questions how free he was in his choices (as she didn't listen to that bellular interview xD). awesome video once again! you are great!

Where did Derek go after his first death? Was he judged by the arbiter and sent to the maw? When Sylvannas resurrected him, was he ripped back out from the maw?

I just think is strange we never actually see her change anduin so who says he didn’t join cause they have a plan that we will find out at the end of the raid...that anduin actually change her... that makes place for anduin to actually forgive her and just exile her at the end of the expansion

8:13 *_is Nobbel87 refering to himself?_* :D

I really truly don't believe anything has changed with sylvannas and her view of the world. She made it abundantly clear that she doesn't believe that you have anything that resembles free will in life, so taking control of someone or murdering a bunch of people doesn't really matter because "life is a momentary flicker" as she describes it to Anduin. But what she wants is for Anduin to be on her side in the realm of DEATH and the entire point of why she allied with the Jailer is to ensure that, at least in death, in eternity, you get free will and choice, which is also something you don't get bcs of the arbiter. Taking away Anduinz free will in, what should be the ultimate expression and existence of free will (at least what she believes the jailers plan is) definitely makes her feel uneasy and doubt whether he really is fighting on the side of free will or if she'd just been manipulated into helping someone who's as good as Arthas in terms of not giving a fuck about free will

they did say that arthas made certain choices and he wasnt fully controlled

Arthas saying "One way or another" - Isnt there a boss in Shadowlands that also says that line?

I think that this look of(as many name it) sadness on Sylvanas face is somethig diffrent. It's like she did somethig to Anduin but not as Jailor wanted and she think about it, plot in her head....she got her own goal

I think its also important to realize that during the time of Arthas, the veil wasn't broken like in the present Shadowlands. Not only is the veil broken when Anduin is being controlled, but he's also still in the Shadowlands. I'm sure the connection between Arthas and the Jailer before was weakened by the separation of realms.

Nobbel, I'm curious to know if you've listened to "Drought" from the Shadowlands OST. It includes musical motifs from "Arthas my Son" and if so what are your thoughts? I feel like this solidifies that something relating to Arthas will occur in Shadowlands. The same motifs have also been used for the Kingsmourne cinematic when Uther gazes upon Anduin. Interesting things to note when considering if Arthas will make a return or not in Shadowlands and how that could effect Sylvanas' thoughts overall. Especially since this "jail" of an existence -- so she claims -- should apply to Arthas, he should be suffering in the Maw somewhere and if she interacts with him again would her vengeance return?

“ she doesn’t have a master“What makes people who are master is is that they are a master basically that you give them authority over you are a fear or ignorance, is anyone has been paying attention to Sylvanas since warcraft 3 she has both of those so she may very well be a pawn and not truely know. Or it’s like we learned in cataclysm she figures around us she feels the judgment so she’s trying to become part of that so she can save her self anyone that says that she’s not self-centered clearly has never paid attention to her character . Since she came undead that is.

I get the feeling that it is actually because the Jailer made Sylvanas see that they are quite similar in what Fate has decided for them instead of them deciding their own fate.

The worst way to tell a bad story is to tell it slowly

What I don't get, why do the first ones not tell us the whole backstory just outright. Why do we fight against something we don't know, while there are beeings on our side that exactly know who we are fighting and probably what he is planning to do. I get that it is more thrilling for story telling, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Plot Armor. The most effective plot armor ever. Best argument for why Jailer needed Sylvanas for anything would be to lure Anduin to the Maw (and even that would need to be a retcon, because their reasoning before what that somehow Azeroth deaths count more than those of every other world combined when it comes to making the Jailer stronger). After he has Anduin though, they need some deux ex machina rank 11 plot device to explain why one of the most powerful entities in the WoW universe needs to keep around someone 1/5 his size. I mean, it's WoW and so I expect the 'plot' to be all over the place, but I can't watch a cinematic with her in it without wondering why he needs her for anything.

Omg I just had an ad for a boosting service for WoW

Arthas did have choices but as I said, a weapon like Frostmourne that steals souls, and even Arthas later admits "Then I'll do what without one." I've always since I watched that long ago feel that he's really just a slave. When Arthas is at death's door in Wrath the whole "Father, is it over?" Why say that if even during Frostmourne that he's truly chosing all of it. That..makes no sense. I don't think a hardended villain like that would talk like that. I don't personally buy that. I'm not saying Arthas shouldn't pay or at least atone for(See Stratholme and how he did it to the whole being so obsessed with taking the Scourge). I mean Arthas did raise Sylvanas but I am not confident that he was completely his whole regular self. So...yeah, I also believe Sylvie is VERY aware that there's a weird connection with Frostmourne and well *Points to Jailer baldy dude*. I don't think she's that dumb, no way. I'm just saying, I can't just ignore how much of a victim Arthas was(And well the obvious reality that Sylvanas is also a victim and well those that suffer from abuse sometimes they repeat the cycle). Thats all I'm saying. I don't see Sylvanas being redeemed, at worst just seemed a little sympathetic kinda like Kil'Jaeden he was very evil but theres a bit of a spark of what we call humanity in them. I.E. very nuanced storyline

This.. is.. amazing!

Ive read the Arthus book and absolutely love it. I still think losing his soul to frostmourne would effect his actions, while still being his own. I felt the last true choice of Arthus was taking up the sword. There is also the seen in Halls of Reflection, I think, where Uther flat out says there is almost nothing left of Arthus and it is perhaps that last remaining sliver of him keeping the scourge from washing over Azeroth.

Are there any signs of Arthas coming back? Also, Paladins turn into Death Knights so what is Anduin? Love your videos dude!

Nobbel Is it possible that Forsaken are automatically sent to the Maw because of being tainted by it?

Sylvanas is a master strategist. What if she realised who is to blame for her torment and now is working with the Jailer until she finds the perfect moment to strike him down?

After the Stream this is the best way to end the night :D

While it wasn't an easy choice to make, I would argue that arthas made the best choice. Not exactly a morally good one, but one that preserved the most life. Stratholm was already dead, it was just w matter of days, maybe hours before the entire city turned to undeath. At that moment in time, stratholm was easily the 3rd or 4th largest human population center. If allowed to turn, they would have ravaged across lordearon much sooner, and that may have prevented anyone from escaping. Arthas may have inadvertently saved all of humanity from extinction.

@Nobbel87 Do you think that Sylvanas could have met with the primus while she was in the maw and joined with him secretly while creating a plan to appear as an ally of the Jailor?

If you're still browsing the comments here. I'd be curious to what you think of her nonverbals aside from the small look she gives at 23:20 . Her stance isn't really that off-angle from how Zovaal is standing, and she doesn't have any other subtle nonverbals that show stress / fear / dissapointment, her shoulders are relaxed and her arms are straight down, she doesn't look upset to me here. I think the slight downward glance when she was seeing Anduin serve was more of a "I told you so, shoulda joined us when you had the chance." rather than a "Oh gosh, what have I done?" kind of look. Not sure though

What about the naru that the player is connected to in legion do you think that may play a part

the "whats going on?" plus the imagine kind makes you think shes taking it from behind behind that carpet...

Arthas made plenty of shitty decisions before he ever grasped the Frostmourne, the jailer’s influence being the curse on the blade, I don’t see the choices arthas made any less important to his downfall just because they are expanding on the corrupting influence of domination magic

I think in an interview they confirmed that Arthas did still have some control and had an input into the choices he made.

I hope we get to see what nathanos has been up to soon

Arthas was in control, but after frostmourne was not exactly his choice. In warcraft 3 was explicitly said that he cannot feel sorrow, regret etc. So saiyng he was Arthas choice is.... meeeh, because a huge part of him, the one that could have restrict him, was already gone. For Sylvanas, I’d like to remember that in Frozen throne she spent half of her campaign dominating ogre, bandits, troll, soldier etc. without any issue. In fact she seem quite happy to do so.

Here's what I think Sylvanas' motivations might be: She seeks to make life, while you are alive, as free as can be, to remove the judgement of death. She realized, once she threw herself from the tower, that every soul was at the mercy of the Shadowlands, so if she could remove the order that the Pantheon of Death has created, remove the judgement they pass on souls, she can give every living soul a chance to just live their life as they choose, without fearing where they might end up in the afterlife. Every soul would end up the same. The Jailer likely played to this, telling her that, if she helps him, the order of the Shadowlands will be broken. She just didn't realize the cost of this victory, until Anduin took off those rose-tinted glasses of hers, and now she doubts if the Jailer won't just impose his own order upon the afterlife. Or not, they've kept her motivations pretty hidden so far. Could do with at least a few hints.

I'm starting to feel like breaking the helm of domination broke the arbiter. Part of jailer's soul was inside it so that's why he's been weak for so long and suddenly he's become this looming threat for everyone. As for why and how sylvanas is working for him, I don't think she's that dumb to fall for manipulation. She probably didn't like passing an eternity in the maw and the jailer explained his plan to her, how her afterlife would be different without a maw (the suffering part) and she probably felt like she has no other choice

Well the choices Arthas made when alive is the tragic story, as a DK it has always been implied that Arthas was no longer in control. “I damned everything and everyone I ever loved in his name yet I still feel no remorse, no shame, no pity.” And I’m quoting straight from WC3 without using the book because it showed a more callous character. I find the idea he still had choices as a dk to always have been more ridiculous in my mind but that’s me.

I'm mad that Blizzard keeps changing the narrative with Sylvanas. When they introduced Shadowlands, they said she wasn't a villain. This Blizzcon they called her one. I really hope they don't ruin her character with a fall from grace like that. She deserves better. She is by no means a villain. And if they paint her to be one, then she was clearly forced by The Jailer.

If the jailer is so good at manipulating and getting people on his side, then why didn't he took a shot at convincing Anduin?

Silvanas is with the Jailor because he has a huge massive power.

Here is what I think... There wasn't any confirmation that SYLVANAS was the one that controlled Anduin... He did give him a choice, but the Jailer was the one pushing it. Sylvanas even said that Anduin isn't ready yet. There might be a possibility where The Jailer actually Forced This fate Upon Anduin and Sylvanas is realizing because of that, what is actually happening, her face even shows 3 stages. She is at first contemplating , then is sad for Anduins fate and extension her own, and then there is a very very short moment where she looks pretty angry at the Jailer. You could see it by the narrowing eyes and slowly turning side glare .

They are just setting up to 'redeem' Sylvanas. You know, the only character around at the moment who is completely irredeemable...

Honestly the only reason I see Sylvannas doing all of this is so she can have revenge on the Jailer... Which let’s be honest this isn’t out of her character, Sylvannashas constantly crossed the line to get revenge on those who wronged her, even to the point of doing very petty stuff. So her working for the Jailer so she can backstab him and get revenge since everything that ruined her life and after life was done by the Jailer. So yeah that is the only logical explanation that I see since all the rest make her look like a complete idiot a hypocrite or both. I think we all agree that Sylvannas beyond redemption or salvation.

What id love to see?? A badass trio, Sylvanas, Anduin and Arthas going full on the Jailer. Who knows, maybe Syl will forgive Arthas for what he's done after seeing the Jailer's power with her own eyes??

Need to remember that Sylvanas was faced with an eternity of torment in the Maw after throwing herself off Icecrown Citadel. She had no choice but to ally with the Jailer to avoid that. Also raising Forsaken and giving them a 'second chance' after being murdered by the scourge is different to mind controlling Anduin, especially when she has respect for the Wrynn's.

Enjoyed your analysis and review. I’m convinced that Zovaal thinks his motives are justified and managed to convince Sylvanas of the same. T&E, in a recent video, reminded everyone that Zovaal has shifted his ambitions when considering what Sylvanas and Denathrius think they are. Perhaps Zovaal is playing everyone for reasons the eternal ones are aware considering they banished him to the maw. Time will tell...

I do think controlling Anduin’s body like the Jailer does, is precisely what Arthas did to her. You read it in the book, she was literally being controlled like a puppet by him. Someone virtuous, with such a strong will and desire to protect her people... she saw herself in Anduin. This mader her pause. It is a different context in Derek Proudmoore’s case. Or even Delaryn. She broke Delaryn’s hope and she served willingly, but despite being in the freaking Maw, Anduin did not break, like she would not in the past.

I think "Dominating Anduin" is a poor choice of words... Although it would make sense for her unfinished like of "We can't even decide who we..." Ok... Sylvanas may really want to "dominate" Anduin, but not in the way you're describing...

She respect him, that's why now she's like "dude, that's fuckeup".

the jailer couldnt be in control of the lich king, he said at the final of the Torgasth questline that he considerer the lich king has a failure for betray him, that he was supposed to be the herald of his coming.

It's interesting you mention how Sargeras tortured dreadlords to find out the stuff about the Old Gods. I wonder if, being agents of Death, they gave that information to him on purpose to try and sow discord between the different cosmic forces?

It sounds like the Keys that the Jailer are after are a necessity for him to reach his goal. Perhaps Anduin's possession was just one of the easier keys to achieve. Some of the other keys may be much harder to get and have required some long game planning to do so. Another key he has to get is from the Grove, but what if that key is locked away in a place that only Elune herself is able to retrieve. What if the ritual of the Night Warrior that Tyrande performed actually made Tyrande capable of retrieving this key because the ritual made her the actual hand of Elune. That would have made the Burning of Teldrassil a necessary step to pushing the High Priestess of Elune to perfom said ritual. Now that she is the Night Warrior, Zoval can control her, as he did Anduin, to retrieve the Key from it's vault within the grove. It might be a stretch, but Sylvanas burning Teldrassil may have been a necessary evil to achieving that simple end. Could this have been done without burning Teldrassil? Sure, but they would have had to have found something just as evil to push Tyrande into revenge mode.

Two questions. If she found Arthas in the Maw, then why did Uther have to throw him in? And she might know that the Jailor created the Lich King and his gear, but she might not blame the Jailor for the actions Arthas took. You dont blame the blacksmith for creating the sword that kills you do you?

I think the different is how anduin is turned because he is alive and how sylvanas would bring back people that were already dead into forsaken. Just my opinion. I think we’ll know these answers when we see the purpose.