One thing I forgot to note with Arbitrations is having very high killing radius and extreme KPM yields more vitus as the loot progression is tied to killing drones, which further dampens CC's use even in game modes that are innately control focused.

Gotta love 5000 credits cache in an endgame mission

the biggest issue with defence is that its too long, and you can get bs loot that many mid and late game players feel isn't worth the time, like the credit drops some game modes have is too small for steel path, when you can make that much passively in the same aount of time

I appreciate the new corpus defense slander. One of my friends came back after 4 years and that was our favorite tileset. To say the least he was depressed when we loaded into the new tile

One thing I don't like as a point - Fissure Excavations are already nightmares if you have someone hard-on slamming in batteries into the excavators. At that point, you just don't have a single relic crack cause the excavators are done before you can get reactant.

If mobile defense should get the chance of a rework, i think taking inspiration form the deimos vaults would be a good start. The part where we have to defend Loid and Otak while they unlock the vault genuinely felt like a mobile defense mission, instead of 3 stationary defence points.

CC and the endurance running community died the moment void keys were phased out.

Mirror Defense was supposed to fix the issue with Defense taking too long. Never forget how long it took us to get Citrine ;-;

For eximus units, DE should make them like Demolishers. Make them susceptible to CC but they gain resistance as time goes on

You're spot on that the value of CC has historically been influenced by the reward system of mission types. I agree a revisit of this system would help diversify the gameplay loop without devaluing the power creep of weapons that's occurred in recent years. Modern day Warframe needs game modes that incentivise things other than dishing out big damage quickly, and provides worthwhile rewards as a result of playing those modes. The power creep of weapons hasn't been the problem - it's simply highlighted the real problem - that the most valuable rewards are generally obtained from the same gameplay loop of dealing big damage quickly.

Interception could be made more meaningful by having each intercept also reward "transmission fragments" which could be exchanged at a vendor for resources and one puchase per week things like a forma bp or exilus adapter bp(vendor could be suda, simaris, or some other new vendor). And have the number of fragments dropped have some sort of scaling so later star chart intercepts have more fragment drops or something and youd have a decent way to accomate new players and more late game players.

Fantastic video, I felt like your insight about rewards being an innate part of the issue was really valuable and something most other creators (myself included) completely overlooked. I don't honestly know if DE will ever enact any pro-CC changes as they currently lack any real incentive to do so, but I think videos like this do a good job of contributing to that conversation if the time ever does come for it to happen. As an aside, I feel like ESO was kind of the beginning of the end when it came to damage focused game modes, as it was the first I can think of that really pushed CC out of the question entirely. Add in damage just going up and up over time and even previously CC friendly modes like Defense have just buckled under our ability to blow up everything in seconds. Also, Ratchet and Clank music? Based, subscribing on 30 alt accounts.

You know what? What if the planets all had relays with vendors that sell different stuff depending on which planet you're on, and those vendors can also act as pity systems for all the grinding? Maybe make it easier to get that one elusive vanilla Equinox part by buying it off of a vendor in a Uranus relay. Get those miter parts in a Ceres relay. Maybe even Mutagen Mass from Eris. On the side of CC, it honestly kinda hurts me that CC frames aren't even optimal in normal Defense missions. People wouldn't want to slow down enemies from coming because the missions lasts longer so CC frames are kinda unwelcome in a lot of cases. A Nova that speeds up enemies is somehow better for Defense. And I low-key think that means there's something fundamentally wrong in these "Defense" missions. It's really just stationary Exterminate.

I feel that the changes they've made to the Circuit - where you keep rewards up to the last wave you completed - should be rolled across the entire game. And then, after that, they can increase the rewards like you suggested, and lower the Defense objective HP back down - a lot. The reason I say this is that, even with rewards increased, there's really not a reason to take CC these days, even in those modes, because objectives are usually pretty beefy - you'd need to basically fully abandon most of them for them to have a chance of actually dying. You don't need to pay attention in today's Defense nodes. Note that SP Circuit WAS an exception to this, with a *frighteningly* fragile defense objective that practically necessitated locking down the location to secure its survival. You thanked your sweet Lotus when you hit that wave and had a Vauban/Khora/Frost etc. with you. But, after the buffs to the objective's HP scaling, SP Defense today feels like a freebie - like every other Defense node in the game. I feel that finding somewhere in the middle, perhaps just a bit more forgiving than the old SP situation, would be ideal. It could still feel hectic and dangerous without some control, then, but even if your objective did pop, with the other mentioned changes (and thus your previous wave rewards secured), you've at most lost a few minutes of effort instead of 15+. You make failure less painful, so that you can let players feel the threat of it more, and increase the value of diversity in your roster's capabilities. Oh, and eximus units should dampen CC effects on them, not cancel them completely. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Void Armageddon definitely needs some changes, its so cool, and to make it even more cc focused I wish you could upgrade turrets so they scale with higher level enemies, the reward changes could be good too

Personally, Defense and Excavation, I did enjoy them in their hayday, and in current day I feel like they should get some form of addition that speeds up the excavation like collecting the void globules and depositing it into the machine, and perhaps a drone type that signals for stronger and faster enemy spawns during defense waves. Even Modile Defense, I feel this game should allow for players to interact with the machine and do the hack minigame to help speed up the progress or eliminating an enemy and bringing a module that expidites progress, doing so in turn increasing enemy density.

Point A - People will optimize the fun out of anything. Or don’t care to begin with. This is true, and exists. But idk, 15 minutes in public matchmaking and there isn’t any crazy shortages in basically any mode. Xini fills up as easily as the Void Marduk or Apollo. (Berehydnia also exists, and can be solo’d by Vauban turrets, go figure). Xinis new tile honestly makes interception easier then the old one, with easy straight shots for Void dashing, or if you make A the hard point forcing enemies to take a long path into a choke box. Void Capture or Disruption might be “optimal”, but repeatedly running to a red marker and doing a weapon DPS check before they escape/explode (might as well not use powers as many Capture targets are immune, and Demos are a mix of immune and nullifying) is mind numbing. If the measuring stick is simply optimal farming of relics, then might as well say Warframe are irrelevant since you can complete Void Capture with an unmodded frame and 0 Forma Braton (Disruption puts a bunch of bells and whistles yes, all totally irrelevant to what you actually do. Other then that DA mutator, which does bring CC back onto the field, at least until it combos with DE’s inability to follow their own design on that other OG-everything mutators, see Coolkids vid for that detail) Point B - Rewards. Guaranteed and Specific rewards will out perform random ones. Correlate Point - DE are the ones who electively abandoned what they said was a prototype or test run at the time for CCCCC… potentials and retroactively decided to keep it specific to Disruption (a DPS check mode) Void mission - Guaranteed Relic. Disruption- Guaranteed relic. Except for the ones that don’t. Which people don’t generally play unless farming Gauss/whatever. Apollo would be inarguably inferior to Kappa (no Nullifiers lol, or annoying front shielded bursa demos) for Axi relics except Gauss breaks the focused rewards logic. Other Endless Missions - Kind of hit and miss. Lots of silver or even not so good gold mods, endo (not terrible) and credits. Other missions- Other then Spy, most of them don’t even haven’t reward pool. Occasionally lacklustre bonus caches, or spectre blueprints for Rescues There’s obviously myriad ways to address that of course. Pity systems, only having evergreen rewards, or copying the ability to stay in a single reward pool. All of which have some implementation concerns to design stores, or relocate non evergreen rewards. Because you do need somewhere for new players to get their original copies. Another obvious one would be splitting off some specific rewards from existing pools into those missions that don’t have any. Point C - Lack of Efficiency Boosting Kill Objectives - Defense, Disruption, Alchemy, etc all speed up with kills. CC or “true” defense objectives…., do not speed up. By anything really. Survival kind of a middle ground. Both help, neither makes you more efficient though. But yes, kill based missions reward performance. Non kill based missions do not. As simple a change as having timers go 2x speed but only if the objective has active shields would immediately go a long way for Mobile Def, Mirror, Excavation. Or keeping enemies out of area (though DE has developed an obsession with the opposite for whatever reason) Interception is the only one that sort of does this, but only by a half step. You can have 50 enemies on the point as long as you shoot whichever 1-2 dudes are on the terminal In hybrid missions, or strategy. Kills often complete the victory condition, while CC (and tanking) avoids the failure state. Warframe is so ludicrously easy that the latter often falls by the wayside. A combination of power creep, forcibly bowing to solo player demand (remember Railjack got “dumbed down”, twice. Once before even release.), and an unfortunate but backed up by dev quotes criticism that they can’t seem to handle balancing in a non-binary non-reductive manner. That said, I wouldn’t say CC is “dead” in stuff like Defense/Survival. If, and this is a huge if when we take the broader playerbase, your squad is hyper optimized skilled endgame players, then yes. The DPS will largely outperform. In the probably 90% PUG squadding, that is a drastically lower certainty. Even less so if you aren’t chasing speed laps in the fastest easiest farm possible and deliberately engage in stuff like SP fissures.

Cryotic to rare resource shop (Tellurium, Argon Crystals, etc.) would be a huge W

All I can tell about CC. Steel path Interception...

Anyone else saw this video coming when Nova made those community posts a while back? I realized the modes he kept asking about were more cc friendly than others.

Void Armageddon sucks, the fact that dudes spawn after the next one activates and youre already on your way is just stupid, and on SP they pretty much get three shot or less.

Mainly the playerbases fault for crutching nuke builds so hard and also the devs fault for overbuffing enemies in some content while not allowing crowd control to have a niche

really great topic and suggestions

I love how many videos Ive recently seen on this topic, hoping that opens DE's eyes to the problem a bit

Im glad you're talking about it from this angle, i recently started using qorvex in mirror defense and its actually so fun, but he's not always as effective everywhere and im starting to realize what frame mission compatibility feels like

babe wake up novaumbral posted another wf video!!!

I wish DE would add the void Keys back, as an addition to relics. Like void only and the rewards are completely random, you could get like anything that was primed before.

Crazy stuff right there

I still run interceptions for void relics with my homies as it lets us relax and just vibe

I played 1400 hours of Warframe from 2013-2015. I remember when the tipedo was nerfed. We used to ride that bad boy for miles! Unlocking CC and building around it was the key to get higher and higher in Survival/Defence, meaning better rewards. Every time slot had orokin rewards! It's a shame to see CC get gutted so bad. Frost Prime with a small but strong bubble and max duration with Loki dropping weapons to have your Ember and Excalibur doing huge AOE damage (before their reworks, when you could have infinite uptime with max damage on Embers World on Fire. This only worked because of Loki dropping weapons, or if you didn't have a loki, you could have a max range ember with energy reduction spamming accelerant. Thank you for the video!

Genuinely, the problem with the non-meta mission types is that: why would I do this mission that takes 5-7 minutes to get through when I can do this mission that drops the same amount in less than a minute. A idea that I have had to deal with the cc problem is to do what the new netracells have done and give people bonus loot or affinity for playing less popular frames and weapons. On top of mutiplying the drops from cc central mission types by default. Not so much it makes speedrun missions completely unoptimal, but enough so you don’t feel like your wasting your time. Some other changes I’ll include are: Add loot bag enemies similar to what you see from the bag enemies in BL 3. So void missions are more reliable, and you can farm certain things like riv slivers from them. With bonus loot given if you cc the enemy and take the loot before they die. Excavations - rather than power charges keeping the excavator going for a set time, they extend the time and cause loot fissures to appear. But it’ll cause competely invincible creatures to appear to try and destroy the excavator that can only be stalled with cc.

If your goal is to prioritise CC over damage in a game mode, the first step is always divorcing progress from killing enemies. Someone in another comment pointed out that for a lot of current content, damage is how you win, and CC is how you not lose, but the state of DPS is such that losing isn't really an option if you're playing well. Imagine a game mode similar to defence, where you have a static objective in the center, while also having side objectives that grant bonus rewards that spawn every 2-3 minutes on the outer edge of the map. The mission is to protect the objective, you fail if it's destroyed, but your wave progress goes up faster if there's no enemies in a radius around the objective. You don't have to kill a single enemy to complete the mission, for best results you just have to play keep-away. For a mission like that, you could very well see a solved composition of a support frame and a CC frame holding the central objective to make sure no enemies get in range, while the other two take mobile DPS frames to dash out for the secondary objectives.

I was SO sad that when DE started talking about neglected status effects, they just completely omitted CC. Like yeah cool, blast will be more blasty, but with the armor changes and easier strip, it just puts even more fcking focus on DPS. I wanna be able to at least somewhat use my kit without a Saryn immediately wiping the entire universe with a cast of 4 🥲. Like, DE, you want us to actually play the game and not create a boring braindead playstyle but.... THAT IS WHAT THIS DPS META IS!

Nice profile pic you got there I’m going to subscribe

5:00 THE GASPAR MUSIC DUDE I LOVE THIS

ah man.. I remember running limbo or banshee in interceptions… I miss void keys q__q

About mechanic creep, the last week EDA had survival, on which you could get a lot of air support from killing necramechs, and also you could summon one by yourself, which on kill lowers timer, and whole survival at this point turned from afk kill everything you see mode to the mode, where you need run around the map and kill big guys when they are spawn, and I think is good idead to use this system to speed up defensive missions and make them more interesting play. In my opinion core problem of CC missions that this is unrewarding way to play, not in terms of loot or something, but in terms of skill expression, you drop your cc abilities and that's all, now you can just sit and wait for the timer, no way you can spped up the mission or do like l iterally anything that changes outcome of the mission, so I think i'd be cool if they add big chonky guy that you can summon on mobile defense mission or interception, that on kill will speed up the mission, and spawn him far from the object of the mission like on disruption, so you could just wait before he comes, or you can find him, but to defend object while you are away you should use cc abilities or something like that.

Well, maybe if there'd be a new currency gained from doing CC focused modes in general maybe have Darvo either be the vendor or associated with him. So there's reasons to actually bother going to his shop. Maybe have something for some of modes where there's in mission modifiers that can be turned on. Like, normally there's very few Eximus units for a defense and then turning on a modifier adds a bunch and does something like doubles the reward or something. Or double the reward for getting something akin to a demolisher or mini boss showing up for a rotation. Maybe a modifier so Defense and Void Armageddon can also grant Cryotic so they're more tempting.

When I see the thumbnail, my brain automatically read the title as "the decline of pvp modes in warframe"

The eximus changes damaged a lot frames because if your whole kit is cc and you cant controll anything this just lets you put some frames to rest

I really love the new endless gamemodes as far as disruption (ofc the OG ones too), I wish that endless bounties were a thing where I could go void cascade for example and get a new bounty reward after each round and not just the first round. I feel like the majority do not stay for long runs because said missions do not refresh the bounty reward on subsequent rounds. Another example is farming disruption for Dante but make it so every round I'll get a new bounty and not just the first one.

Defense should have something like challenge mods, every 5 rounds a row of challenges available will show up which have variable numbers of stuff it can reward when completed, people can choose 1 to make up a total of 4 mild rewards or the 4 choose 1 to have the full reward of that challenge at the cost of being extra hard, but proportionately so.

I played before steel path was released and raids were where the “CC is king” originated. Not to try to be snide, but with steel path and the update of everything, it’s surprising that folks somehow didn’t see that coming. Warframe has evolved from 40-50-60 wave defense game to a bit more fast paced with far more varied content. Its overwhelming and borderline crazy for sure, but I’d take open world fishing over spending 100+ hours looking at bars fill up

One thing that I feel should be a part of CC-based missions is some "speed up" mechanic, like in Deep Archimedia mirror defense. (Kill a necramech to drop 45 seconds of defense) You mentioned something like that going about mobile defense, and I feel that helps a bit, because you aren't simply waiting and are rewarded for having a proper defense going, good enough, that you may be able to take up other tasks. Now again, loot is a giant problem and needs to be looked at as well, because no matter how fast it goes - if it isn't that relevant - then what's the point.

Even if these modes were buffed to compensate its still tough for me to enjoy certain modes where i spend time just waiting, disruption is by far my favorite since you can ramp up its pacing to extreme amounts with good optimization, while other modes im just sitting around and waiting, after ive optimized doing disruption fissures by a lot its hard for me to really play any other mode cause it just feels good to be fast.

About Mirror Defense, didn't Rebbeca said it was an experiment and it has concluded, so they won't bring any more MIrror Defense nodes?

Used to have my clanmates farming a lot of Carbides at Ceres and Cubic Diodes at Europa in defense mission because the resources only dropped in that mission. Needed a ton of them and actually it's bothersome while nice enough to spend times with friends rather than waiting for Railjack mission availability 6 months later. Then DE cut the cost of those 2 resources in half which refunds the effort my friends and I did to build Railjack and again near the release of The New War while revamping the Eximus units to drop those 2 resources, I guess the fun in Defense mission is over.

for excavation you should be able to overcharge your excavator by giving it more power cells

Don’t know how many people will see this but after I think 170~ days I finally got all the necromeche pieces crafting

Cc modes require certain fres with certain builds that people dont want to play like nova and mag. Whereas a lot of the cc frames can be built for damage which is more convenient for players who want to play the frame they’re interested in

My friend i can tell you listen to funk and i love you also yes with the new updates such as netracells we love rewards all together rather then going through a rotation constantly only to get 1 part espesially for warframes but relics to are a exception but its been the same for years the only 1 you can get alot of relics on is survivals or defense and id rather wait 5 mins then 5 waves to get my rewards but yeah relics also need a improvement on their gamemode

If they buff all basic missions closer to level of new missions and alerts, you would have harder time to find squads. Thats why having around many rewarding missions of each type is a bad idea. You want to concentrate players to new missions and alerts. Here is list of changes that would help: 1) Players can only do the same alert 5 times. This change nerfs fast mission maximum effectivity, while still allowing them to exist. 2) You now always find fissure mission of each popular type. There will also always be avaible one mission of the less popular types like archwing, the car ride, hive...

I would love to see new game mode, mobile defense with archwing, mobile defense on ground and then landing craft taking the point and flying with it on archwing to next drop point, give my archwing some more love!

Mobile Defense needs to let you get multiple datamasses so you can activate multiple consoles. And it should have optional hidden consoles that grant special loot. Excavation should give you more loot the more power cells you supply to the excavators. Interception should have much higher enemy density so it can double as an affinity farm. It should also have floating nodes that orbit the map, and increased loot to compensate for the increase in difficulty. Finally, Overgaurd should be Damage Resistance + Damage Boost, not CC immunity. There’s no shortage of damage in the game. CC immunity is what the Nullifier Crewmen were for. When an Overguard enemy spawns, players should think: “Glad we have a CC teammate!”

Game speed up and im happy of it, got bored same slow mission like 7 - 8 y ago. Btw. in EDA CC works great, for me it's enough, but I understand that there are people who want to use it more often.

Mm. I've been followed this discourse. Personally, I wouldnt want a few of the changes you suggest, because it means doing away with missions that I physically enjoy the act of playing. You are the first i've seen approach CC from the perspective of game modes, as opposed to character builds. That's novel. I'm not sure any version of better loot / extrinsic incentives fixes the issue. Though i do like the idea that context-unique loot should translate into some more of those general, evergreen items that are hard to come by.

Void Excavation A mix between Spy, Mobile Defense, Defense, Excavation, Railjack, and Interception You must Spy or Intercept to get a coordinate, Fly there via railjack, then defend the excavator for a set amount of time. This would be an endless mission that isn't wave based or energy based like traditional excavation or defense. Loot table would include vaulted relics, arcanes, boosters, Endo, Kuva, SE, and primary/secondary stance mods. Thats my solution

After the poll I have decided to try out disruption again, everyone said it got a lot of love and people enjoy it. I just needed some somatic fibers to build voruna, I dont actually care what disruption rewards you with (I also dont have the time to farm prime stuff and therefore dont care about relics). Yes, the mission was way more approachable and finding the demolist was better, but honestly I found myself very bored. Run here, kill, put in, run there, kill and so forth. I was playing solo btw, in a group Ill probably wont get to participate as everything just explodes around me. This made me question if I generally dislike the damage meta focused content. I have been farming in the Zariman before and 2 things come to mind. Void flood is fun because I get to use the space ninja movement. Void cascade has to some extent CC, but isnt required (Killing the enemies in the bubble finishes the thing faster). DE delievers a lot of quality for free and I am willing to overlook the majority of missteps, but man there is so much fundamentally that I miss about the old gameplay. CC is fun, ragdolling enemies is fun, Melee combos are fun, most melee weapons feel like slob now, the only difference is the look or if it has a range mechanic. Im totally fine with defense not being engaging, Im just trying to relax and maybe hangout with my buddies, void cascade is stressful in comparison. The great thing is that the options are there to play old content, but as you said you aren't getting good rewards out of it. Im kinda fine with that, but I wish they would retouch those things. It really does feel like the gameplay side has been going downhill since the kuva brahma while the story and art has been going uphill.

The thing is Interception, Defense or Mobile Defense feels ages to complete that why no one play them anymore (except for Hydron Tileset), with void cascade you can get 4/5 rotation is sub 20 minutes and don't forget those arcanes, that's is why Void Cascade so popular right now. Yesteday I try to do Lith fissure on Corpus Outpost tileset, shit so huge that first rotation takes 8 minutes to complete like what the hell

Despite being a Voruna main, I'd indeed like to see CC being more heavily utilized. I primarily use Breach Surge for its Blind and rad prod to confuse more so then damage multiplier, along side a robo-doggo that is CC focused with manifold bond with cold gas rad (With forced electric pocs from its electric ball thingy ability) to control a room and prime her number 3. I rely on her stealth and CC ability to remain alive and the boost in her damage is secondary. As much as i like seeing Big funni numbers there's something satisfying for me personally to control a room.

There aren't dead game modes, only players who get easily bored and frustrated.

Mobile defense could have cache stacking mechanics. Basically make the defense aspect similar to spy vaults where we have to hit all 3 areas to finish the mission but success only requires one to complete the mission and we get a-b-c drop tables identified for each successful defense of each objective. My philosophy of it is mobile defense is a great mission but doesn't reward anything for us to play it naturally. We only play it if it's required to (ie sorties, bounties, archon hunts). This change I propose should in theory not change the core aspect of the mission but give us an outlet to reward us for playing the mission anyways. As far as rewards go, they could give us opportunities to get maybe element/status mods, maybe some new mods they want to introduce in the future something to give us incentives to complete all 3 defense points anyways.

7:02 I completely agree here. I'm just not a fan of how vertical and spacious the new tile set is (for defense and interception, the rest are awesome). I basically just played them for steel path completion and never played them again. I would also like to see reward pools going AABCCCC... That's one of the main reasons people like me even run disruption for farming relics, you can spam rotation C rewards. There's little incentive to staying longer than a rotation C (unless it's void fissures which you at least get the extra boosters and upgraded relics). Maybe not repeating rotation C's for all mission types, but at least some of them.

I think the thing that drives home your point the most here nova, is the fact that defense missions is the literal worst mission type for almost all farms, the ironically one of the few times where nova’s “cc” with 10% strength is invaluable

I'd like to point out that eximus fortress in sorties especially interception, can payout 6 digits, up to 500k credits easily with no booster. This blows both the index and veil railjack out of the water. You can finish the sortie and farm it to your hearts content.

2:29 Me too man, me too.

14:00 new mods with cc effects included

The only modes I can actually enjoy is void flood and Tyana Pass. I only do excav fissures for ducats.

While this video is mostly about CC, I definitely agree 100% on every gamemode critique offered in this video. I think when they released Steel Path I thought for the first time: "Damn, I dont wanna continue any of these planets because all the remaining nodes have incredily annoying gamemodes. Since then its been very up and down with new gamemodes, Defection, Citrine game modes, the void one with turrets (holy shit its so slow) and as other people mentioned Relic Excavation that you have to do very carefully, unless you wanna walk out with 0 Relics opened. Over the years our toys have become better, more fun, more efficient, more stylish and TBH Its been fun. But the playgrounds we use them on still are incredibly hit or miss and IMO its one of the biggest things that keeps me from endlessly enjoying the game. (Except the circuit, that shit was the bomb!)

I love the new mirror defense on deimos; killing the rogue mech to speed up the timer was the best thing they could have done imo.

The power creep is real

i want CC back, but i mean it takes 20 minutes to get in survival, but even longer in defence. excavation is still decent i think but the defence is the main issue. they should do it like the other one and make it 3 waves each round. also i would solve cc to give us soft CC and hard CC, black hole, hard CC, lighting pellets from vauban, low CC. screaming in someone face with valkyr soft CC. and so fourth. it would make some CC frames which get countered by overguard more useful. so more god of destruction travelling other realms be thwarted by random butcher with flame suit on!

I wonder if all the Excavation enjoyers are newer players. There was a time when it was a lot of fun, but Glen stepped in and neutered just about everything about it. For a much older player like myself, it just isn't the same anymore. The history of Excavation might be an interesting video idea.

i like that also blade and whip thats an anchor

Ehh they’ve shown that they can make modes were CC is useful. Alchemy does require kills to drop amphores but the drop rate is plenty high and the enemy spawn rate is basically maxed. You need to add the amphores as fast as they drop to do the mission quickly and that’s time you’re not DPSing. There is value in having CC so your runner(s) can focus on progressing the alchemy objective. They just need more objectives in missions that aren’t solely tied to killing enemies as fast as possible to get your reward

There's a difference between CC taking the backseat and CC being bound and gagged locked in the trunk.

I think a way to make CC gem mode better is to reward players by keeping enemies alive as players complete the mission objectives. They can do this by making loot better for less enemies spawn in the mission

the CC problem is amp up by CC being free for any frame to get is massive ranges and effect from endless lullaby with baruuk subsume or condem from harrow so if cc ever is good mesa can slap it on her saryn can slap it on her and so on

Been playing Warframe since 2015 and I can't agree more. All I see now in 2024 is constant nuke builds and it has totally taken the fun out of the game for me. I miss having an actual difficult mission, everything now is way too easy and makes the game boring now.

Scarlet spear was not around during the same time as helminth!

CC died when afk auto play became an issue even thought its specific to certain region more than others, still suffer rest. And as you said defense mission is more like hunt enemies down before they get the chance to attack objective, and hope while you aways 1 tap doesnt happen.

Indeed. with power creep and the introduction of KPS competition, CC aka slowing the flow become undesired, so far the only places where it is desirable is interception and excavation, more when it is a high level like archon, so far the only solution i can think is to change how CC is done completely, which will piss of CC frames or make specific mission where keeping enemies alive or requiring CC to be able to do massive damage , but those would need to be on par with disruption or people would not do those missions. Btw , no one talks about spy anymore, worst mission atm, bureaucratic, slow if you want to be stealthy and rewards are minimal, only deflection is worse afaik.

For the longest time in earlier years of playing WF (like, pre 2019) I thought that Defense, Survival, Excavation, all repeated C rewards after the typical 20. 20 minutes, 20 waves, 20 Excavators, you get the idea. I understood going to 20 for the first C rotation then restarting was the most efficient for most players as you deal with lower level enemies, making the farming more chill. Yet I always wanted to go past 20 and the first C, not because im into endurance runs, I just thought marginal increase in enemy levels for the next few 5 would be worth it because the same builds that gets you to 20 can last till 30 or 40, maybe even 60. Why keep resetting for A and B rewards? Those were my thoughts at the time. And while it wasn't the point of the video, considering updating older modes that were designed with CC in mind (which I miss) I think a clearer understanding for how those rewards roll would also be great. Either Codex or on the mission node hover like they plan on with the weakness rework, put the rotation code on there too. AABABC or whatever it might be. Adding to that, the top comment is a joke about 5k credits rewarding for endgame. I think that itself proves your points, which I wholly agree with. As you said, DE is busy, but part of why I've quit so much and haven't played in a long while it's because of what you and others have brought up. I loved CC, I dislike the pure damage nuke meta, but what has me not playing is being funneled into repeating the same missions for a chance at a super specific reward. We have 2 whole Starcharts (including Railjack), third if they ever introduce the Tau system. Spread it out!

For me, Defense has always been a slog because it forces you to exterminate every enemy in the wave, and the mission won't progress until you do so. If I'm not nuking, then I'm forced to run around the map finding that one lancer who's hiding in a corner, and it sucks. If you slow the enemies down with CC, you slow the entire mission down, and that's bad. I think if Defense were worked to function similar to Survival with a stream of enemies instead of a wave based system, that would make the mode more engaging and also allow CC to shine much better. Defense could have a rotation every 5 minutes like Survival, but it would still be different to Survival because it forces you to defend the objective and bunker down, rather than have everyone run around with an absurd KPM to keep the life support up. By making Defense time gated instead of enemy gated, you could stall the enemies with CC, but Eximus would still punch through your defense requiring you to kill them. You could also give players a bonus reward for achieving a certain kill threshold to make it so the mode isn't stale, or summon a Demolisher every round who can seriously threaten the objective. I think this would strike a nice balance between CC and damage while also making the mode more engaging to play. What do you think?

Cutting loot intervals in half would help endurance runs, lot of dead air in defense or survivals

Lethal league music spotted

Butter Dog ( The Dog With The Butter)

I love doing most arbs, I'm weird that way... what I don't like is knowing that if its an excavation that shows up, no-one will stick around or even participate because those excavators just can't survive the amount of bs thrown in their way. everyone ran around like headless chickens trying to murder immunized npcs that had their arb-drone with them, and I have to jump in with a weapon that has enough damage and fire-rate to get the thing to be removed... its the weirdest experience being with people who have an 18 to 23 to even higher mastery rate and still seeing them just not understanding what we're supposed to do to succeed.

Atlas video when

How to fix most mission types: Make every wave a 5 minute timer by default, enemies spawn endlessly with small breaks between waves. Get rid of the "kill all the straglers" part from interception and the like. Killing enemies reduces the timer up to 2 minutes per wave total with sufficient kpm. Apply this also to mobile defense, interception, etc. Reduce the number of waves for reward cycles by 30% pretty much across the board. You now have a mode that rewards fast killing but having CC doesn't make it take an eternity. Make rotations for ALL modes be A, B, C, C.

We will probably see more and newer eximus before we see crowd control looked over

Defense should be every 3 rounds per rotation

dont remove the silver mods on the reward pool, those are for the newer players to farm on, just have the new rewards be on High tier maps or on SP.

I think defense should be changed not to be permanent c after 20 waves instead after wave 20 it should become BBC but you also always get an a roll. Then after 40 it's cccc with an extra a and b roll.

Valkyr waiting room…

Ayy got here early gang

I like the points you addressed here, but you did miss a BIG factor of why Void Cascade and Disruption are popular: level cap. They scale FAST, and fighting enemies stronger than most will ever see = bragging rights and/or views. People who play for level cap won't bother on a node that doesn't scale, survival is a good example of this. Worse still, if defense, excavation, etc did in fact scale well, the objective would be gone in seconds. If there's going to be a fix for these mission types, they need a fundamental change from the ground up, or they'll still be ignored, regardless of how fun they can be at low levels.

Might just be me, but I feel like CC being dead is not that big of a deal these days, speaking as someone who used to despise overguard making CC even more irrelevant. Warframe evolved into a different game and it's ok. You could say the game prob lost a bit of its identity along the way and it became more like every other looter shooter but... looter shooters are great. For me, current Warframe is like a more mobbing focused live service Borderlands game with mechanics from all of them and more playable characters than all Borderlands games combined. Which is awesome, because Warframe has more variety and MUCH better writing Still, I definitely agree with bringing older, slower game modes up to pace and improving rewards would make a massive difference. Other than making defend type missions duration based so CC has relevancy, imo they should also give them a significant buff in rotation rewards. Just doubling what's already there, or changing how rotations work won't be enough. We should also get guaranteed resources of all types from the planet the mission node is on. AND they need to be big chunks of resources, at minimum on par with doing an SP survival for 5min with a booster. With helminth being a massive resource sink I think giving out resources would be pretty useful regardless of where you are in the game. It would help encourage CC as well because the resources you get at the end of a round would be enough to make up for the reduced amount from killing enemies and overall slower rotations

I think that it would be better if defense ran as AABBCCCCCC... so that it has a ramp up and investment, but then there's a return on that investment after a bit, similar to disruption. Endless missions should reward the endless part more and reward the early investment some less. It would also be nice for the defense missions where you cycle between objectives to be separate instead of a random chance at certain nodes, then you could make them into an endless version of mobile defense where you defend each point for a time instead of a wave of enemies, then have to go unlock the next spot, but it can still stay endless with maybe 3 waves per reward to match mobile defense

I think it’s less so CC is bad to use because it really isn’t, I mean I wouldn’t be maining Limbo if i didn’t find him fun/ engaging. But it’s more so like you said it isn’t engaging and rewarding enough to run CC or CC focused missions if you’re going strictly for the loot. Which is the sad part because I don’t want these kinds of tactics to be removed/ neglected. Because it is a Sandbox and I can understand that some tactics can be better than others but you shouldn’t make 1 method MILES better than another.