I am not a fighter nor ever likely to fight, yet I am fascinated by listening to you talk as you very patiently and clearly explain things and also (importantly) explain the history and reasoning behind everything. Thankyou for the info.

My old man was an old school boxer in London. Bare knuckle and semi pro... thats how he taught me..

Wow never noticed flipping the old English boxing stance to front becomes a Muay Thai stance. This is why I give Ramsey tons of respect.

"What else would you call me, bob ,bill , buck"😂😂😂

Question should be if you're going to do old school English fighting stance Should I grow a moustache like them, wear long johns and workman's boots

Maybe a little bit off topic but it's fun to watch when MMA fighters have good boxing and I'm noticing as the sport progresses the boxing is improving alot the shoulder roll is becoming commonly utilized in the UFC now for example

Excellent point.

That stance appears even earlier. It shows up in the grappling section of the *Fiore de Battaglia*, or "Flower of Battle." It's a bit hard to tell if he's doing it specifically for the grappling position he calls "Boar's tusk," but you can DEFINITELY see the master in that exact position as part of a grapple that can transition into a lock/throw in the first play. Seriously would like to see you look it over even if only the preface and the grappling parts. They actually have free online translations of the entire thing!

Changing stances is a topic that isn't touched on enough. I'm about 6'1, and I've been boxing for 6 years. My coach is very versatile and has always added layers to my game. Never tried to strip away my natural tendencies. So even though i'm a tall fighter for my weight class, I have a natural inclination to fight on the inside. My usual stance is meant for power, knees bent low, wide stance, and a tight yet shifting guard BUT if there's a momentum shift? I can just as easily switch to a very upright stance using my height and reach. Standing tall, chin tucked in my shoulder and jab arm down swinging like a pendulum and walking backwards with my right hand ready to block or parry incoming punches(basically a philly shell). I really appreciate my coach for that.

George Foreman used extended arms as "feelers", more heavily in his earlier career. It wasn't quite the extended English guard but it was similar.

What is funny about this irish or english stance: the rotation of the fists while in "Guard position" with the knuckles pointed to the opponent, makes a lot of sense when your straight punches hit with a vertical fist. Sure you can "corkscrew punch" from this, but on other painted art from this era, it is often shown that the "Pugilists" punched vertical.

I believe the guy who posted the question is talking about an even older type of boxing, traditional pugilism circa 1600-mid1800s where they still used wrestling techniques to do takedowns and slam people on the floor (among other techniques that were eventually forbidden). I'm not sure but I believe it was with the Broughton rules that they banned grappling? or maybe with the english prizefighting rules?.

3:37: Can we all just appreciate the HAT on that ref? Bring back refs wearing hats.

The old pugilism stance is also used in Karate styles.

Standing grappling (throws, trips, sweeps etc) were allowed under the Broughton rules (1700s) and London prize ring rules (1800s). And they were scored if one guy remained standing. Just no going to the ground. That changed under Marquis of Queensberry rules (late 1800s), even though more clinging was allowed. After MQ brought in gloves and no grappling, technique evolved to correspond with that, but it took awhile. I think the biggest difference was that the jab became better and more important.

He is probably referring to pre-quinsbery era - either the London rules which still allowed throws etc. (19th century) or even before when it was just fighting with very little rules, sometimes even using weapons. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Prize_Ring_Rules

Thanks for the answer Ramsey. I know I didn't know much about my own question, but you're always so respectful and helpful with your answers. I can see why you chose coaching.

I love coming to this channel. An amazing perspective every time.

This is one of the best and most interesting videos I have seen, nice to see the stances placed in a historical context, thank you Ramsey.

Hey Ramsey, Could you do a video explaining a few of the different guards and blocks for kickboxing an other stand up sports

your knowledge of the history of martial arts is always impressive :)

I really enjoyed this video. Thanks for this answer

You happen to be very insightful and your voice keeps me interested. I subscribed to you just for because you know what you're talking about, how you explain things so they can be easily understood, your voice, and you're organized. I appreciate this video honestly!

That was really cool. Had no idea about thia. Didn't even think about where my stance came from. Thanks coach

As it happens, that palms-out stance you see in muay thai was also found in ancient Greek pankration. You can see it illustrated in many ancient works of art depicting fighters. If the ancient Greeks used it, and the muay thai guys use it today, you can bet it is useful. But like Mr Dewey says, you don't lie in a single posture all the time.

As always, excellent work sir

He would call you Coach, Sensei, Sir, Master, Teacher? Something more respectful/formal than Ramsey. Thank you for being so down to earth and welcoming with your approach to this KZfaq thing.

yeah im gonna have to subscribe! very good video

Very informative, Coach Buck

Thank you Ramsey to educate us Peace Coach

Great vid. What would also be great would be some old school boxing techniques (and their perspectives concerning grappling, parries and even cross-guard and crab guard) to use in mma

You made me interested in fighting ramsay and now im training Evert day of the week, thank you for opening my eyes to the wonderful world of martial arts.

always a interesting listen, cheers Bob, I mean Ramsey ;)

first time watching this channel. so when this video started playing I got distracted reading the description so I was not watching at all, so im hearing this narrator voice announcing the video's sponsor and stuff and then going on to the actual questions and starts answering and suddenly in my head was like "wtf why is this announcer still talking and asking if he should be called Bob or Bill" so I actually look at the video and I realize it was the actual dude's voice and im like wtf thats the coolest voice, its nothing like what I would expect this dude to sound like

No they could go for holds as long as it was standing. Yes submissions in boxing.

Loved your channel! Great points! Technical arsenal as evolved and application strategy etc....but we're not inventing the wheel, just changing those iron "tires" for constantly improving rubber ones 😉👊🏼🙏🏼 thanks, Renato

The Punishing Art by James Lafond mentions the purpose of this guard and its use in clinching and throwing in old school boxing. I never even notice it's a MT guard lol. subscribed.

Amazing points and really good advice for martial arts fans of any level, thanks for the insight

Nice video Ramsey, I think a few other points to add are that after Jack Broughton formulated his rules no grappling below the belt was allowed. Also one of the reasons the head was back and high was that most attacks were to the body and even arms, hard skull vs fist... Also the rear arm over the solar plexus was to protect the golden spot, I believ this is where the term 'mark ' comes from, as in to miss/hit the mark. The grappling usually involved what was called chancery, controlling the head and neck in a form of lock. Broughton also came up with the idea of 'mufflers' a pre runner to gloves. Even then though he acknowledge that a form of padding had more chance of long term head damage. Back to the outstrched pronated fist, this was to aid the quick jab and ensure the knuckles connected, generally all the pun he's were like this or vertical. Very little time was spent on hooks as these were seen as techniques of unskilled fighters. Just some food for thought..😁

Great video Steve!

Interesting. I agree with your explanation completely.

Thanks for your input, Billy Bob Buck.

Good video. Just to add it might be worth mentioning how today's boxing stance is based off the use of 8-10 oz gloves 🥊 and creating a shield as opposed to bare knuckle the defense is different.

Great topic.. 👌🏻

Subscribed for dat buttery smooth man voice.

oh I've seen you do that In a couple of your sparing videos One that's very memorable to me was you were on the outside in that stance thew a kick and ended up close into a philly shell I found it realy interesting, especially because I don't know alot about wrestling and the transitions from that outside range to inside the pocket then to a takedown always come as a surprise ☺ Keep smiling love the videos

Love your videos. God bless

Great explanation

@Ramsey. I have a question for your next Q&A. What technique, training or conditioning method from older traditional martial arts do you feel have been forgotten and could have value in today's MMA if brought back?

Great video, so when we talking about oldschool boxing stances what do you think about Daniel Mendoza stance and is it any useful in MMA?

Look up Mads Burnell. He just had his Bellator debut last night. He uses variations of old boxing stances and guards all the time in MMA. Pretty cool.

im gonna have to watch some more old school boxing, that looked proper interesting... Ramsey, what are your thoughts on chess boxing? would you ever give it a go?

I think what they person meant when they said "when boxers could still wrestle/grapple" or something like that, yeah so prior to I think 1743 boxers use to eye gauge, fish hook, and all kinds of things but even after the first set of rules in 1743, one of their favorite moves was to get the opponent down, on ground or mat, and hold his head with one hand and bash his head with the other. That was considered OK and even preferable, I want to say this was around the time of Daniel Mendoza - also great content just subbed

What you described is my stance. I've trained kickboxing, chinese martial arts, ttaekwondo (briefly) systema, judo (bbriefly) and now train mma (mostly bjj though). Works well in sparing and I have used it in the street once after pushing a guy away after he tried to punchny m8 in the head. The extended arm did good job of keeping him at a distance. The defensive hands meant the bouncer grabbed him and I could get on with my night.

If take a look at many Vale Tudo fights, the fighters are often using that stance, Rio Heros was a good exemple of it, the majority of the fighters that came from a grappling background used that same guard during the stand-up.

cool vid thanks

I feel like most of this comes from promotional pictures, like look at a promo picture of todays fighters, they are not always in the stance they use all the time.

Nice. Your explanation reminds me exactly of how trapping is implemented in Taiji Meihua Tang Lang. Utilizing those feelers. Just further proof how many arts have many similarities.

I never thought about the english boxing stance as being similar to a Muay Thai stance. Mind. Fucking. Blown. Good sir.

Good video Bill.

Looks a bit like what I was taught as the Taekwondo fighting stance. With a focus on patterns and long-range fighting, I never did any clinch or boxing type training to learn how to use it properly. Or, fight at all.

I think your viewer was talking about boxing under London Prize Ring rules, where grappling to an extent was allowed. Boxing for the last 130 years or so has been under Queensbury rules. Totally different beast.

Santishi(三体式) is the foundation stance for Xingyiquan(形意拳). It is derived from the on guard stance used when pointing a spear(枪) towards the opponent. It applies in bayonet fighting as well, and it is most apparent in Jukendo.

The questioner was probably referring to professional boxing under the London Prize Ring rules, which did allow standing grappling and throwing as well as punching. Those were the days before timed rounds and points, when a round only ended when one fighter hit the ground (either by knock-down, throw, slipping over, etc.) and the fight continued until one man couldn't continue. Anyway, yes, they did use a variety of standing throws - they're clearly illustrated and described in numerous boxing manuals of the period and also in newspaper reports on numerous fights.

I can't believe that all this time I never noticed this! No matter how much you think you know theirs always more to learn.

Love this one! Boxing has a special place in my heart,and it's incredible to see how we still use these things today. It's stood the test of time

“What else would you call me” anything but master Ramsey 😂

Wednesday 3rd April 2024. 22.48pm. "Dear Sir. Good-evening. How are you? I trust you are well and good. Thank you so much, for your wonderful and informative video on the English Boxing stance. You are such an intelligent Man. All the best." Yours Respectfully. The Bull Of Lewisham. 🐂

In bareknuckles fights I think the fighters would throw more body shots to wear down their opponent without damaging/breaking their own hands. They weren't throwing full force head shots from the first round given the fights could go 20, 30, 40 rounds. I suspect you would see more of the Nick Diaz style punches to the head with a lot of hard body shots, and a lot of open hand strikes to the head as in sumo wrestling. Gloves allow more powerful head shots requiring defensive postures with hands held higher.

It's Mister Dewey, to you sir!

Comments are good for the KZfaq algorithm.

I feel like that also very closely follows the requirements of the San Ti Xing Yi stance, speaking of which I would really like to hear your thoughts on Xing Yi Quan. There is an Internal Arts martial arts instructor near where I live and they do actually spar and train towards learning to fight and not just forms, mostly with Xing Yi the instructor told me. I took Baguazhang when I was younger and have a general understanding so it would probably be ideal for me to get back into. If I were to take BJJ afterwards does that sound like a reasonable basis to get into mixed martial arts with?

You'd be very interested in Dan Donnelly. He was arguably the best BKB. You make some great points here too.

Nice

Howdy Ramsey, I've been looking into training for combat sports of some kind once the coof clears up. once this happens I'm looking to really dedicate myself and train 16-20hrs a week. Fundamentally I have two questions. Question one at that level of training how long would you expect it to take to acquire a sufficient degree of proficiency to be competing on a regional or national level? Or would that only take you so far before you would have to commit more to training? Question two other than general health and fitness is there anything I can do on my own to increase the speed at which I pick things up?

That takedown at 3:59 was perfect

Informational as always coach, I've been wanting to ask for a while, do you have some of your original music in SoundCloud or similar sites?

We use that also in Choy Li Fut!

The pic of Shogun in the video cover is a Muay thai stance, just wanted to point that out, but good video!

Coach question for you, Ramsey/Bill/Buck: Currently in a boxing gym and I love it. However, in a few months I'll be moving to a new city and won't have many gyms with me or a punching bag in my new home. Aside from shadow boxing and calisthenics, is there anything else I can do to continue training?

Nice moves!

Yeah I love this stance not sure why but I do

Great explanation! Makes perfect sense. It’s not far off from what I learn in Krav Maga.

I was taught by my Grandad that they boxed like that in bare knuckle bouts to present the larger knuckles forward to strike with too save the second row of knuckles from damage. Most fighters were from manual trades where their livelihoods depended on their hands. When you think of it, it’s a bit like the Okinawans use of forward Uraken from guard.. it’s all about preserving the hands. He taught me the “ knuckle under” for the head, face and throat and “ knuckle up” for body shots and always always! a high guard...

Yea whats interesting is that stance also translates to a lot of weapons forms as well. Interesting how martial styles spread over thousands of years and evolve just like the human body itself.

Hi Ramsey really love your channel and Q&A Can you please talk about what exactualy is catch wrestling? Is it different than BJJ? What are the basic concepts of this method? And can we find fighters who uses the tchniques? Just started BJJ and Judo (2 months ago)

Boxing used to use alot of grappling ect. In America it was called rough and tumble. It is alot like pancrasion style or vale tudo. It wasn't until the second or third time of rule transition, until we have to pugilism we have today. A few high profile fights resulted in death bc of lack of time limit ect.

I want to say Sean Fagan did two videos about this stance where he tested out the effectiveness. The first video he made a mistake about the striking that wasn't historically accurate, and potentially risky to the hands of the striker. Then he made the second video to show what it should be done like after some people corrected him.

Pre-gloves boxing in fact did allow takedowns, commonly mentioned are the "backfall" (body lock bodyfold), "sidefall" (suki nage), and "cross buttock" (tai otoshi). Doran's "art of self- defense" has the best illustrations.

Hello Ramsey, i sustained a head injury from sparring when i ate a mean roundhouse to my temple and I can’t train to my full capacity, is it still worth it to do light training?

Same principle of those kung fu bare knuckle stances. Except this is much more reliable

"As soon as I raise my hands, I warn you, it shall be too late to run..."

Up until the Marquis of Qeensbury rules, 'boxing' as such was a mixed martial art. Grappling was allowed, in particular throws such as the cross-buttock, and also holds to pin an opponent in place while you struck them. There was also a 'spinning backfist', the pivot blow and the 'cutting backfist' as per Mendoza's chopper. The longer guard stance (the 'old school' stance) was to enable the pugilist to keep the other guy out of throwing/grappling range, often using a straight left as a stop-hit as the opponent tried to close in. Previous to Broughton's rules you could also grapple on the ground.... Once the rules made it a sport and outlawed grappling and throws then you use a tighter guard as boxers do today....

Hi Ramsey I have a question which I hope I might get your perspective on to help me make a better informed choice about the next stage of my martial arts training. For context I have practiced 'traditional' Karate for over a decade and it is something which I have enjoyed for it's own sake. I have recently moved to a new town and the are no Karate clubs within a reasonable commuting distance, I figured this would be a good opportunity to take a sabbatical from Karate and experience something else to diversify my training. In the area there is a kickboxing club which I am tempted by, sparring is probably one of my weaker areas and practicing something with more immediate and obvious consequences might help me get over at least the mental blocks I seem to face when fighting. My dilemma is that all of the existing members look to be considerably bigger, heavier, and stronger than me. You have often said that size matters in a fight and I can't see me having much chance in any sparring in which I might partake. While I am not bothered about losing in sparring (I generally do!) I do like to theoretically have a chance so that I have a goal to aim for. I appreciate you tend not to advise people where they should train however I wondered what take was on the benefits and disadvantages of training in such circumstances? To confirm, my concern is over their physical superiority and not their technical superiority. This was not such an issue in my Karate training as a sizable portion of the training was line work and kata. (hopefully I don't come across as too much of a wimp!) Thanks very much Matt

What do u guys think of virtual sparring I find it is a good supplement to actual sparring helps me to see punch coming and practice effective responses

This is off topic but Ramsey who do you think would win Jon Jones or Israel? Also I would love to see you breakdown each's skillset.

Justin gaethje has one of these stances but it's slightly different. His hands arent fully extended and his lead shoulder is at a higher angle compared to his rear shoulder. This made it more suitable to be able to counter. He uses this stance very well in the tony Ferguson fight. Big nog also had this stance

If you go back further, there were indeed takedowns and throws in boxing. The end of each “round” occurred when a combatant got the ground, whether through blows, trips or throws. Most often the latter two. This is why you could see fights going dozens of rounds. That’s my understanding of it anyway.

When you said that, it now seems obvious... 🤓 I didn't realize Muay Thai stance was the same as Old English Boxing.

The old stance still looks a bit different to the muay thai stance. MOre leaning back for example. Chin not tucked as much i think.