Fun fact: Transcode Talker could only target Code Talkers in the anime. They decided to buff the extender when it came to the game for whatever reason.

1:35:46 I think it’s important to recontextualize that these broken monsters like halq verte and electrumite were made during an era when you literally needed link monsters in order to play any other extra deck mechanic. Truthfully master rule 4 and its revision are the biggest cause of power creep. Like originally the combos of non link decks were limited cause you couldn’t get more than 2-3 non link extra deck monsters. And so those monsters had to be made better. But then the floodgates got unleashed and the restrictions were removed meaning now you can spam your extra deck summons again. However you also have all the powerful support for those other non-link mechanics and now their main restriction is gone

A link 2 I really enjoyed the design of is D/D/D Gilgamesh, it enabled the deck to actually pend summon, locks you into D/Ds, the scales set depend on what you’ve drawn and isn’t horrible as an end board. The unfortunate part of it is that with the D/D lock, once the deck got dated, it’s dead until their next support. Especially as most Pend support printed are monsters or links, which they can’t use.

This discussion is somewhat interesting as Dragon Ball Super's card game started without an extra deck, but developed one late into the game's life cycle. Out of the gate, the extra deck cards were focused more on being impactful bodies, either being solid removal, impactful finisher, or a towers, all of which would be made reliable to access. Not all decks could utilize this new extra deck and some of the introduced/reintroduced archetypes seriously benefitted from this change. Later on, they introduced some extra deck cards that improved consistency, though they're limited to specific archetypes and they're very difficult to mix around. Dragon Ball Super has splintered into two formats, Masters and Fusion World. Masters is the continuation of the run from 2017, while Fusion World is a reboot that looked to clean up the game, removing problem areas while retaining the core gameplay that popularized the game. Masters is bloated with effects, floodgates, and power to the point that it's simplified the game to who goes first and if you have the floodgates. Fusion World cut out counters (a mechanic that has frequently been a problem for one reason or another) and printed cards with 1-2 simple effects, which is quite refreshing compared to Master's 2-3 multi sentence effects (tbf, it's still easier to navigate than Yu-Gi-Oh cards since effects are prefaced with what type of effect it is (Activate:, Counter:, Auto, Permanent)

The Extra Deck is probably the most iconic mechanic in Yugioh ever since 5Ds. It's also one of the game's most fun but also most flawed mechanics. The upside is that the Extra Deck gives players this feeling of piloting a super well oiled machine compared to the more slowly paced "I draw a card, I play a card, I end my turn"-type of play a lot of other, mostly Mana based card games like MtG or Runeterra provide. Nothing against those card games btw, I love them but there's really not many decks in those games that quite scratch the same itch, not even the combo decks. Because while you do get to play a lot of cards and effects in one turn, most combo decks in MtG are linear compared to combos in Yugioh which to some extent depending on the deck of course can have vastly different combo trees and play lines (and I'm not using the Yugioh-specific meaning of "combo" here because in my eyes every modern Yugioh deck is a combo deck). However I still think the Extra Deck as a mechanic is ultimately GIGA-flawed, especially in modern Yugioh. First of all there's no downside to an Extra Deck, even in decks like say 2013/14 Spellbooks it was optimal to run 15 Extra Deck monsters because you simply did not have any incentive not to despite the deck barely going into these monsters at all. The only time you don't run an Extra Deck is if there's a card or effect that specifically says you can't like Domain Monarchs. Which brings me to my next point: remember how in the earlier days of Dueling Network people made fun of the "No Synchro, no Xyz"-lobby people? Well, my hot take is that they had a point to some extent: Yugiboomers probably wouldn't even hate Extra Deck mechanics so much if 98% of playable decks weren't completely built around them. For every Spellbooks, Monarchs or Flu there is 50 different decks that inevitably involve some amount of Extra Deck spam. This might also be one of the reasons why people generally like Edison so much. It's the format that probably comes closest to hitting the perfect sweetspot in between. But pretty much every other post Synchro era format will mostly just have 98% Extra Deck usage. I think the last chance the game ever had of returning to a somewhat reasonable state with consequent help of the banlist was in like 2017 before Zoodiac format. Zoodiac was technically an Xyz deck but I always thought of that archetype as the blueprint for the 1-card starter and Link 1 design, a design that made the game pass the modern Yugioh event horizon. And now after 15 years of intentional(!) Extra Deck power creep since the Synchro era began there is no way to close that Pandora's box ever again. The only chance to escape this would be for Konami to introduce a new set rotational format with less power creep but that is sadly not going to happen.

Something I’m surprised I don’t see more people talk about is that I think Konami has (knock on wood) largely recognized their design mistake on the generic link extenders. Especially in the TCG, basically all of those cards are banned now (Isolde, Halq, Auroradon, Knightmare Goblin & and Mermaid, etc) and they haven’t printed anything since that is even close to what these cards once were for years. The closest thing is the errata for Summon Sorceress, but has been made less generic and wasn’t brought back on even the most recent list for TCG. I think a lot of these cards were overcorrections for MR4, some of which lingered into MR5

Karakuri is the first deck I can think of where the extra deck pieces where extenders to get you more things from the main deck.

The timing is hilarious 😂

Konami has Fortnite Built themselves a skybase into the heavens and can't get down to redesign the foundation of Yugioh, and they can't get down without killing themselves. They can't redesign the game without killing half their combo-player playerbase. They can't design more fair cards because they aren't better than what was before and so they have to Powercreep the base higher and higher into the sky. The Extra Deck is a problem due to being Generic. When every new Archetype video is like Dkayed(No offense to him) is saying "This new Archetype is CRAZY!" and then shows 3 new cards and combos that end on the same Baronne/Access code end boards you know there is a problem. Omni-Negates aren't the problem. FREE Omni-Negates are. Myutant and Invoked Mechaba are perfectly fine. Myutant main deck monsters have specified Negates like Beast Negates Spells. The Extra Deck Myutant boss and Invoked Mechaba have to banish or discard the exact same type of card. This is making the Negate come with a cost that balances out how powerful a Negate is.

this aged like milk

Here is the discussion I would like to see, I would like to know how you would fix the game for the "Rogue Decks"/Budget Players. A secondary format? A ton of legacy support? In so many ways, with each new meta relevant deck and power creep I feel like the older cards become useless card board outside of niche cases. Is it ever worrisome for the health of the game that new players are literally taught by watching videos like this that they are "bad players" (using Josh's words) not because of their skill level but because they WANT to play a deck outside of the meta. How do you resolve these issues and make the game fun and meaningful for players outside of the meta?

Just dropped. Funny the list just came out

3:34 There came the german "doch" :D:D:D Thought we wouldn't notice, but we did :P

The recording of this happening before the most recent list reveal but it being uploaded after the reveal makes this a bit interesting to listen to, from a hindsight perspective on certain cards that got hit.

Josh was absolutely spitting facts on this one. Loved the nuanced discussion. I hope someone from Konami sees this and takes notes.

One of the best extra deck monsters Konami has ever designed is Dingirsu. While is a generic rank 8, is easy to summon in the intended deck, it recycles banished resources, is removal, can be used as disruption in the intended deck, has protection and even had a clause that says you can only summon it once per turn. This sounds very powerful, but has anyone ever asked for it to get banned?

what a great timing, lol

Love the podcasts so far, would be awesome to see other content creators as guest too someday :)

Omg I have never been here before but I love the idea of a yugioh podcast. Subbed!

The problem is that boss monsters all amount to your opponent cannot play the game ie negate. The game lost its flavor when the win condition are that your opponent cannot yu gi oh.

19:47 Example for farfa a good extra deck combo extender that stays locked to the archetype xtra hero cross crusader. Gives you a body on board and a generic hero search.

17:30 the first was more in lines of EHERO Electrum and The Shining. They were used to recycle each other for an FTK or to perform loops. Chimeratech and FHD was also used in the same way to simply dump resources via FF

I only really play gamble decks which is what keeps me into the game. Doing the same thing over and over makes me get old of the game very fast.

the process of building a board in yugioh is very linear and got old for me, personally right now im on a yugioh hiatus and am playing EDH but I'm hoping something brings me back to Yu-Gi-Oh

Im glad youtubers beyond Team APS are starting to change their tune regarding generic omnis. Long overdue. We should give that card design the same level of disdain as floodgates.

It's interesting to observe Josh's bias towards Salamangreat. If Mannadium summons most of their Extra Deck turn 1 and has little room for utility, that's balanced, but when Salamangreat has to give up slots for bonus effects, it's an unfair disadvantage. I can understand why he would feel this way, after all Salamangreat is a very fair deck, while Mannadium is pretty toxic and uninteractive, not to mention much stronger recently. But Salamangreat was designed like this for a reason: You can make your cards more powerful, but have to pay a price in deckbuilding. It's a cool dynamic that gives agency to the player. If you wanted to ignore it, which is essentially what increasing the Extra Deck size for specifically Salamangreat wold do, you might as well make Sunlight Wolf 2, which just has all the effects without needing to be reincarnated. That way you don't even have to play the bricky Field Spell anymore! But at the same time the deck would lose its identity and ironically feel more like other Cyberse piles, which is the last thing a real Salamangreat enjoyer would want. Personally I don't like the idea of breaking deckbuilding rules at all. If my opponent shows up with a 20 card Extra Deck, that's just weird. On the other hand I'm all for breaking deckbuilding conventions, which is something cards like Grass, Extravagance, Sekka's Light and Anchamoufrite do. Some of those cards are certainly healthier than others, but they encourage unique deck construction, which I find fun.

Banlist Style like Duel links has, would help ALOT

Oh yes, should Barrone and savage be ban discussion. XD

I like boss monsters like Purrely Noir. It's not just about summoning the boss but you need to "feed" it with your engine and the more you do the better it becomes, but also deck can use little XYZ as toolbox removals (negate, attach, return) and that gives not only a end board boss but also a way to clean up the board going 2nd

Assume this is pre-list?

Looking forward to their banlist discussion next week

Unfortunate that this came out after the ban list lol that said if you're taking suggestions on another topic I would love to get another set rotation conversation going

The fact that links aren't as hated or even more scrutinized than pendulum summoning was is a sin in this community.

The next topic should be the new ban list, it ties into this discusion so well.

Access Code Talker should have required a cyberse monster to gain attack. It could then be properly balanced as part of the whole cyberse super type deck, while still being a unique and powerful board clearing option.

@52:07 I hear you josh but what about Mathmech Circular.

I think an interesting alternative to the "20" extra deck is to have an Extra Side Deck that allows 5 cards. Im aware you can do this normally but then it runs the risk of giving up say 5 slots that could be more match up variables.

It wouldn't really apply to a format like Master Duel, but what about a side deck just for extra deck spots? Like 3 or so to flex what you can put there without affecting main deck side decking? Could help certain decks with navigating match ups that are unfavorable

4:35 Really hilarious that everyone in America is trying to get their hands on Euro print cards, we view them as much prettier than ours!

1:23:53 I’m here Josh🙌 *glances at Mathmech deck gathering dust after Circular ban* (I built Salad over a year before its fine)

On the topic of adding extra cards to the extra deck. I think 15 is fine but I would like it if there were dedicated slots in the side deck that were only for extra deck pieces. Maybe 15 side deck cards could be main deck cards and 5 could be extra deck cards. Thoughts?

I really enjoyed the more casual first ten minutes

There needs to be a turn 0 where the person voing second only gets to set traps then the person going first takes their turn. This would increase interaction and make traps relevant again.

To the part at like 58:00 and following: I agree that generic extra deck stuff facilitates this play pattern of games feeling the same, but I think it's like 10% of "the problem" at best. The much bigger issue that I personally have with modern Yugioh is that the (semi) linear lines towards similar endboards are essentially just different entrypoints into the same 5 minute combo chain. Some entrypoints leave better results than others, but a lot of it is just a very similar pattern: You play starter X which searches your deck for extender Y and then go into extra deck monster Z which extends further, continuing until you can't. This extra deck monster to extend is often even in-archetype, so the problem of generic stuff doesn't even come in yet. And yes, I am aware that you can reduce the argument to "haha, he gets angry that people play cards to do things you just do in modern Yugioh". But I really think setting up the board turn 1 is literally the least fun aspect of Yugioh because there is very little interaction. And the interaction that is there is just a handtrap on the biggest problem. Then your opponent either is done and most likely loses, or continues with a slightly weaker endboard. The only real solution in my eyes is reducing the amount of times you search your deck or at the very least make you search for traps or in-archetype hand traps more. That way you make your endboard stronger but you don't get to search for more extenders that can be played immediately and just keep going and going. I would personally even argue that a big reduction in archetype consistency (much fewer/weaker search effects) would open the doors for a mulligan to be introduced. I know it sounds very scary (and without my proposed changes it would be, let's be real) but imo this could result in archetypes and hand traps getting a bit of a similar level of consistency. You have a ton of 1 card combos that just start the combo chain and can all be searched, but if you go second you have to be lucky to draw the right hand trap or board breaker. There are so many different ones and not all work the same against all decks so it often feels like a gamble because hand trap consistency can't keep up with combo consistency. And thus Konami has to print hand traps that effectively end your opponent's turn immediately (droll, shifter, Maxx C) because it's so unlikely to just have them in the opening hand.

On the extra deck idea, what about 15 card names, up to 3 copies (unless the limited list says you can only play 1). That gives you the ability to fulfill engine requirements and have space for utility cards. In the instances of things like pots or unicorn, if a name is taken away from you, you are cut off access to all copies for the remainder of the game

My hot take is that the side deck should be expanded to incorporate more ED space. So 15 main deck slots and 5 ED slots on the side deck for a total of a 20 card side deck. That way combo players don’t get more bodies, the extra side deck spaces aren’t being used for more generic floodgates (unless they use floodgate monsters like Bagooska and Dweller I guess). What do you guy us think?

Personally i feel like toolbox boss monsters can work if they require stuff like a specific attribute or specific type. They're splashable, but not fully generic so all decks end on the same endboard (and even then I would argue that reducing a deck to just it's endboard is a bit dishonest)

hahaha I love how sometimes a little bit of german slips out of Josh like "oooooooh doch, I mean yeah"

This video was released, or at least i saw this up so close to the release of the new banlist that I thought it was made because of the banlist. But it was made before, and wow I’m sure yall were happy to see Baronne gone. Apo is probably gonna be seeing its last days

Shout out to Rush bringing back fusions that require specific named materials and Maximums being a main deck special summoning mechanic that also works as tribute summons (only the new ones but still)

‘When did extra deck become an end board.’ When synchros came out.. Stardust dragon.. generic and stop destruction and high attacking beater.. even earlier, collasuas was an unkillable tower.

1:01:03 I have theory crafted a list of cards to achieve such a format and let's just say it takes a couple more cards than just a 100...

The timing of this 😂

Just a thought on the extra deck size discussion. Im someone has never played yugioh outside of playground ygo but loves watching ygo content, so I might be off base with this idea. What would people think about making the extra deck pointed. As in, you get 15 cards and say 15 points to play with but cards have points values, from say 1-3. You could even then consider increasing the amount of cards in the extra while keeping decks that would abuse that more in check. It might be too convoluted and hard to implement a points list ontop of a banlist and all the erratas, as well as being shit for newer players, but maybe say every card is worth 1 point unless its on the points list could be a start. Was just an idea.

As a mtg player who watches some yugioh content, negates looks like mtg counterspell so imagine having to fight through multiple counterspell in 1 turn. imo is like floodgating without floodgates and it does feel bad almost solitaire like, specially when every deck can counterspell.

I honestly think a reduction in the number of extra deck monsters you can play each turn would be great, and one way to do this would be to have the turn number equal the number of extra deck monsters you can summon in a turn

Inb4 cat pendulums, thanks Josh😅

Something like Ghoti is probably a good example of combo piece extra deck monsters are healthy because they are locked to fish specifically help the Ghoti gameplan

I agree that I would prefer cards with 2-3 weaker effects compared to cards with one very strong and imposing effect like imperial order

The reason you can't overlay with tokens is because tokens can only exist on the field, so using tokens to Xyz summon potentially leads to Xyz summoning a monster with no materials. That would be clunky and weird, nevermind how that would interact with later cards. 50:19

I met my wife during Hat format and I'm lowkey a little salty since everyone considers it such a good format, up there with eddison. Ofc I spent less time on the game to spend time with her.

Xyz were beging of the end for how easy it was to access extra deck look at evolution of hero fusions

Insane timing

im still waiting for them to put ritual cards into the extra deck. have something like a extra category for "main deck rituals" that are dual colored like orange bottom half blue top half or so for cards like megaliths, benten or sauravis that have beneficial effects even without the need of being summoned. i dont get why they never did anything like that.

Instead of Accesscode gaining less or no ATK, he should deal reduced damage. The actual stat buff is still very much appreciated to out Towers.

As combo player, hard agree with farfa on bagooska. In fact, i think bagooska is hella healthy for the game. Such a well-designed card. I use it when I'm on a weak board and I'm like "damn lemme protect this buy myself a turn" control deck players use it to prevent OTKs and force a grind game which I also enjoy. Its just always a healthy card, whether its used from a combo deck or control. You have many outs to it.

The glizzy! That's my input

I yelled Yaaaaay when I heard Josh is getting a kitty

Plant synchro would combo heavy to end with multiple quasars

Konami should make levels of negates. As an example if barrone's omni negate instead of negating an entire card negated say one effect of a card on that turn maybe it would not be as over powered. The player of the card would need to state which evmffect there negating for the turn but then at least the opponent may still have a chance to play with other effects. So a full negate would be what we have now and a partial negate could be implemented to even it out more.

34:23 Drytron isnt even Focused on negates anymuch, tear has more negates with Rulkallos, Chryme and Sulliek. But the best Example is Superheavy. Appo, Baronne, Savage, Regulus

The mismatch feeling on rarities and versions is so true lol hate myself for it.

Bagooska is one of my favourite cards because of both the original and TCG artwork, but it’s the exact opposite of a fair card. Yeah most decks have removal options, but they play it at 1 and search it. Like I play VS and my options into Bagooska are hard rip Dust Devil or open 2 VS monsters so I can normal 1, make Rock, special the other, and then clear with SP. Yeah the Bagooska is gone, but if I didn’t hard open Continue I’m now passing on just SP. I wouldn’t hate the card as much if you could run it over by battle with non-link monsters, but the thing just soaks up your battle phase too for no reason. I also don’t think floodgate monsters should have lingering effects. Dweller wouldn’t be an issue if Book or running it over in battle got the graveyard hate to stop and VFD would’ve been completely fine if it shut off once it left the field

Make the extra 30, but make every card count as 2, except for utility cards (or salads' cards) Im half joking...

I'd like to see the extra deck be the same size as the main deck. If the ED is a toolbox it's more fun to have access to more tools for more scenarios. Limiting ed size isnt the proper way to limit combo spam like plants. Spam should be hit regardless of where its from(main,ed,gy,ban). If certain cards become problems, you can just change those cards, or the master rule, to use X/15 ratios.

44:00 Of course the eunuch player doesn’t like attacking Especially not multiple times with the same card… (Real talk though accesscode should get the firewall dragon treatment and just be specifically for cyberse)

put the negates back to traps with conditions linked to a specific deck or board state

I think Savage dragon could have stayed . It insulated for one hand trap in a meta where you’d run into like 2-3 per turn. Baronne should be gone tho, albeit really bc of S:P. S:P being able to reset the Baronne negate every turn is kinda crazy. Keep in mind this is in reference to this format. I know multi counter Savage dragon used to be a menace in past formats.

Yes. I will now watch the video.

If only this was released a week ago

Let's say Konami does an errata to the materials required for Baronne and Borreload Savage, now they require a warrior and dragon tuners respectively. Would that be enough to make them fair?

“The civies” lol

Pendulum and Ritual don't fit in the extra deck discussion until dimension barrier comes into play, and then they get fucked over anyway.. Also I really do not understand why it's an issue that some decks couldn't run extra deck tech cards. Decks are already being considered good when their main deck can afford to run a ton of non-engine. It's the same thing, it's a complete double standard.

Is this discussion after the banlist ?

I think EU prints are nicer. They typically look darker. Look at Granguignol that’s like a clear difference in shade.

How much would Josh need to be payed to binge the Japanese ver. Of Yugioh Vrains? All 120 episodes. I think he’ll just be pissed off at Playmaker because he plays cyberse combo pile.

If only yall put this out sooner lol

1:30:35 josh is cooking here. The nerds, man. They're NOT gonna use extra deck slots in a healthy way AT ALL!

yugioh has definitely become like a 'if you know you know" kinda game. As a veteran also, I just don't bother trying to show ppl. I tried once and the guy just dropped it anyway. Now if ppl ask me about it I just say "If you know you know.." lol

These guys have no idea what they're talking about, wrong and biased (i have listened to 27 seconds of this podcast)

20 side cards but 5 are only for extradeck monsters

We need a limit on the number of effects a player can play on a turn. Chess stays super interesting and its ultra simplified. Its always interactive because there's actually turn based play, yugioh should move back towards that, not only is it more interactive and fair feeling it also is much easier to pick up for new players.

Reject Extra Deck, return to Bird

Extra Deck Monster Design is flawed but we are in too deep to go back. Extra deck monsters when designed in a healthy way are either a Precision Tool Set or a Sledgehammer and nothing in between. The problem is that there are far too many "all-purpose" tools in the belt that every deck has access too. We are at a point though where the water is too murky to bann everything in part because we have splashable engines that can fuel a ton of decks to the best monsters anyway. Yugioh needs some form of change in its overall card-pool. If that is rotation or a new flagship format I don't know; but the issue 100% is that the game is both overwhelming and frustrating to new players due to multi negate end-boards that are roughly the same from game to game.

This episode aged well

Play with Branded against bagooska. Runic slumber protect bagooska exists. Bagooska and baronne is a good endboard against branded. If i can out the xyz he has a baronne.

What’s the point of playing mega decks if they just keep pumping out the same generic extra deck monsters? Why couldn’t they be more like branded despia with its own fusion monsters?

Konami make some dumb rules for no other reason, but they don't like the fact that X mechanic was done by wizards of the coast's MTG first. The extra deck is way past due to be increased to 20(most decks would be more then fine with 17, but some decks actually use the extra deck lol, and now we have to deal with kash or whatnot being able to banish them directly from the extra deck as well), and the side deck should've been 20 from the get go. Don't get me started about the BS way quick play spells are handled, we should beable to play them from the hand, nomatter who's turn it is, this rule only exists, because Konami wanted the interupt/instant mechanic, while being able to say they didn't copy it from MTG sigh. PS. I don't think baron is much of a threat in modern yugioh, it really Isn't. I do agree that card of that power level or high should be tied to specific archetypes though. Also Yugio needs a card like IP, and IP should be as useable as it is. We live in a era where reaction is key, and this turns something that normally couldn't be used as a quick effect into one, it also gives flexibility to decks, as there's a ton of different ways you can use it. Without IP, most situational link monsters wouldn't be worth using.

Remember be careful with anything electric as they could be harmful and or lethal to you and or other people and or start a fire along with causeing other things. Remember be careful and stay safe.

17s a prime number so i agree