I'm trying to figure out which type I fit into. I absolutely have no conscious sense of scene structure, etc. When I wrote my first novel, I did massive worldbuilding, most before I started writing. But when I write, I basically go "Person A has to reach Point B, then C, then D. Go." And then something happens between A and B. And the events at C will change slightly, and they need to go somewhere else before D and I'll just go with it, while still eventually getting them out and to point D. All while continuing the worldbuilding in my two other FYI documents as necessary throughout the story. Which category does that fit into?

You totally deserve much more audience for this quality content !

Do you have podcast versions available?

Ellen, very helpful thanks, have you given any thought to the axis of what i call the detective or Sherlock Holmes where some will piece it in there heads like Holmes on one end and a plotting board of clues on the other. it also includes the free form or free association of writing to the what is the most logical or illogical next step for a character. one could call it the character in a empty room test. how do they get out? i never said the room was locked or guarded. the Occam's razor "with all known things assumed equal the one with the fewest assumptions is the best choice (not always the correct choice just the best choice for the given conditions at that moment.)

I thought that I was every one of the four types as you went along the wavelength spectrum. I was like oh I'm this, no I'm that. I ended up writing a 293,000 word version of a novel after 8 to 10 years and was rejected so far 3 times. After much consideration and watching authortube, writer's podcasts, booktube, and worldbuilding videos and taking inspirational lessons from published authors online such as Neil Gaiman, Brandon Sanderson, and Taran Mathuru, I have decided to break down my 1000 page monstrosity into bite sized pieces. I jjust completed a 50,700 word draft today, February second, 3 hours before the super bowl so I could watch it and the half time show, god I love shakira, I'm a male, but you can never assume anymore, after much consideration on how I set up my latest draft, a cohesive one by rifling through chunks of my planned out old manuscript and other short story Ideas, I think that I fall under the chaotic nature of a methodological panstser, I do indeed write in Microsoft word a short few page outline, like three pages or 1200 words then close it and write like 4 to 5 pages of a story, then write on paper because I like holding something physical within my hands, it's a texture and sensory based feeling that I appreciate, I cut, pasted, and added new story content to the latest draft and I feel pleased with myself. It took almost since I left high school, I started around freshman year writing marvel fanfiction in paper form with a friend, with some pokemon and star wars mixed in, lost all the pages save for like 2 and just gave up on it then went on writing real stuff, my original characters, setting, world, but the character I was developing for almost ten years had the same name as a cartoon I watched, the main character at least, so I stuck with the lord of the rings version of his name I made as a backup. I subverted some tropes and made many different crazy villains in my 1000 page manuscript. I loved it so much that for my current draft, I made the protagonist a complete villain, a science fiction fantasy story about a failed galactic conquest and the super villain is in the suburbs trying to live a "Normal life" he wants to escape reality, he wants to break free from his prison, boring planet earth where nothing cool ever happens. so when he finally escapes he is betrayed by someone who he least expects, the antagonist who I made as the misguided hero. Power is what you make of it, what you do with it defines you, only you can chose to become a hero or villain, the choice is yours, also not all heroes wear capes. Saul Herman, aspiring author.

@@ugurkupeli6779 Haha. Probably. The 1st draft is usually made up on the go and a complete mess. Rarely can I plot further than a scene oe two.

Yes, letting your characters plot the plot is basically a hallmark of a intuitive pantser as far as I'm aware. The one downside is that it may be hard to get everything together again because it can very quickly get out of hand (see: GRRM, Robert Jordan and so on) so having some vague idea of where to go is good way to avoid that at least in part.

@@teaartist6455 True. I try to have a rough idea.

@@ugurkupeli6779 I try to have a balance of both.

lmao!!!

Thank you so much 🙌🏿❤️

Thank you!!!!

Thank you

appreciate it Kokoro(: Ellen has such amazing content on her channel 😊

Methodological pantser here, its cuz of my adhd lol

You learn what you like and you apply what you know. For you it's in writing, but for others it's other things. When you develop your own taste and create your own understanding you know what you want out of whatever it is you pursue to create. Your exposure to books as a kid has most likely allowed you to develop a more deeper understanding of literature which serves your endeavour to enjoy literary creative freedom. Keep pursuing your intuition and exercising your autonomy. You'll grow that way.

@@victorpacanza7664 Thanks!

Well or is a spectrum so you can find your unique coordinates!

Why?

You should fear our characters instead of us. They're the ones who really run the show :D

Muhahaha! Fear meee! Um... or something. Please? :D

@@SysterYster No, no, no. We don't want them to *fear* us. It'll be much easier to take over the (literary) world if they underestimate us ;)

@@Katherine_The_Okay XD So true, so true! My bad!

the number of times I spend hours and hours researching some (often surprisingly interesting) minutia...and then never use it at all... I'm definitely a methodological pantser of some degree - just need to get better at identifying when I'm about to kill my interest in a story with over-planning...

@@Baiswith For me, it's not so much killing my interest in a story as it is discovering something that makes me want to write a completely different story, or take my existing story in a completely different direction. Amounts to the same thing, really, but I can't help it. I could never comfortably write a story without being fully immersed in the details of my story's world, and that requires an ungodly amount of research. I mean, I understand that my readers will never need to know that it takes over 10 yards of starched linen to make my MC's petticoats, but *I* need to know it, darn it!!!!!!! And, you know, I'm sure that the details of growing and harvesting flax and then processing it into linen will be important to the story as well. Right? >.>

@@Katherine_The_Okay The first page, which became my first story, happened from midnight till ten in the morning. It grew to 100k words, and went places I could never have plotted. It literally became an exercise in pealing back an onion (like ogres?) and finding out that everything that was happy and positive was actually finely balanced devastation ready to strike. Literally going from "what a cute kitten!" to "if we run in separate directions the tiger will only get one of us." From the details of harvesting and processing flax, you start with a young lady standing in the water, her damp dress clinging to her shapely body. Yeah, I can see a romance growing from that description. The love arc going from visual attraction, proceeding through his helping her, to protecting the her and the product as they take it to market. Okay, BICFOK! (Butt In Chair, Fingers On Keyboard)

HAHAHA. I FEEL YOU! SAME HERE SAME HERE!!

@@Katherine_The_Okay This made me laugh. 😊 Yes, so with you there. Research is awesome, and gives such great fodder for stories or plot! ...But applying it in a way that both makes sense and still upholds the message of my story is another matter altogether. 😄 Keep writing and have a great day!

I kind of relate :) Thanks for sharing this. It helpded

Sounds like me!

"Waiting a month or two" is the relatable thing I've ever heard in my whole writing journey 💀

I’ve thought the exact same thing about stories already existing and us being the ones who the story is shared to

Similar to mine process only that I pants,so i write down what comes to me,then IT suddenly stops,i wait for the eureka and start again lol

Plotters have this fun aspect though. We get to touch our favorite scenes quickers instead of laboring on boring stuff. Nothing more annoying then being on those dryer chapters

@@ebeleingram8048 I do agree, although being a religious plotter just isn't fun to me. Sometimes I like to let the world and the characters grow around me without having to plan it, which means sometimes the plot or the characters surprise me and turn out to be something else than I planned.

I like to mix both, even though I’m a pantser. It just brings out a different flavor in writing.

@@noahi.1381 Same. What I do is I make a "first draft" but really it's just a lengthy idea, which comes as a gut feeling, and I don't plot anything at all. Then if I like the idea, I go through and analyze the mistakes I made and things that don't look right, often methodologically, and then I make a vague plot outline (but very detailed character sheets) and when I actually start writing, I may stray from the outline due to intuition, but then I can use the outline to go back on whenever my pantsing method leaves me unsure of where to go. Sometimes it's confusing but it makes the entire process so fun :0

I agree with you! I'm a pantser as well, and I really enjoy it. A plot is always necessary before you start writing.

Same!

Yeah I'm definitely intuitive but if I don't have a plot to help guide me to where I need to go my initiative nature tends to run wild and make writing feel like a hurricane of ideas I can't control.

For me it was being an intuitive pantser at the beginning that sparked possibilities. I then became methodical and plotted, to explore those possibilities. I didn't plan it that way, though. I can't imagine writing a novel as an intuitive panster. You'd have to be a wizard, or Hunter S. Thompson.

Sameee, i dont control my characters, I write what they di woo

When she said plotting too much makes you lose motivation to actually write was incredibly relatable.

Same here!

One of us! One of us!

LMAO I died at her description. I always felt bad about myself not being able to write in a normal order, turns out this one's also more common and normal than I thought lol

I thought I was a real weirdo for writing in this way, but apparently it's...COMMON?! Why is such a common writing method so often blown off as "not valid"? LOL. Thank-you for letting us know this is really a thing!!

Same here, but for me it's vice versa. I once thought I was methodological pantser

I was like this before, but then i ended up with a pile of handwritten plotting and no chapter. i realized my love in writing is writing the story itself, no wonder i was so miserable and stressed before, now i'm embracing being a methodological pantser. :)

This is totally me! I always know where my story is going from start to finish, most of the time based on a gut feeling or even a dream. Sometimes I have huge bursts of intuition to just write big chunks of story and I always know where they fit. But for the rest of the story, where I don't have as much intuition, I can get stuck for years on end...

Sounds like me. I think I'm that type too.

Same here; I know a story works when I have a clear vision for it. Ellen describing intuitive plotters as going with what feels right fits me perfectly.

Артем Бычков I think I’m somewhere in the middle of intuitive plotted and intuitive pantser. This is usually how it works: first an idea for a world pops up into my head. I start dreaming about this complete other world that doesn’t exist and start making little details in my head. This all happens until I’m almost literally living in this world. It’s much more effective if I don’t have to go places and do school and crap but I basically leave this world and enter a new one through my imagination. Then I get an idea of a basic plot like “I think I want them to stop the corruption in the government of this country.” And then I get a few loose character arcs like “ah I want them to overcome their phobia of whatever.” And all this crap and that’s it. Then I start writing. I don’t plan when I want the character arcs to happen or anything. I just write. According to all my friends, family, and classmates, it usually comes out really good 🤷🏼‍♀️

I had the exact opposite experience! Thought I would've been a methological pantser, but when the video got to intuitive plotter it was crazy how much it sounded like me. I think it's because I never thought to break "intuitive" apart from "pantser," and I figured that since I was making up scene structure as I went I must be more of a pantser. The video's breakdown makes a lot more sense, though!

Same.

Same for me.

Same. I was so happy when I heard that most of the advice out there doesn't apply to me :D

Same.

it's funny, i'm very young and I experience the same thing while writing. I've experimented with a lot of genres (especially film and TV) and have found that I plot for TV but i do not plot for stage or film or novel. Longer-form means longer writing sessions. I use people from my life as characters, it's not really fictional, and because I know them well I can write about them very fluidly. Every plot is based on the principle that is has to be realistic despite any world I'm building, Usually I do basic research and then write a ton then do more research and mend things that aren't historically accurate. Unlike you, I don't follow the traditional story and, while I keep in mind that I have a reader or viewer who may become very bored, I tend to gravitate towards trying to make the writing as original and true to myself as a writer as possible, which means frequently bending the rules of writing.

@@closetsclosetsclosetsclose9250 I don't use a template to plot. I usually start with a list of events that I expect to happen. A very rough outline. The reason is that when I was young and purely pantsing, I would get lost without a goal in mind. I needed something to steer me back on track. My second book was so much easier because it's like the idea was almost fully formed at the time of concept--the characters and everything just downloaded into my brain. The delay from idea to completion was simply because I stopped to finish the first book. I've never written scripts (except in high school for assignments), and shorter work is far more difficult because my ideas are too multifaceted to fit into that structure. My writing style is a blend of literary and commercial. Most art is rule bending, so that's okay. There's a difference between that and an error, like where you are writing in first person and suddenly break your point of view and start talking about the other person's thoughts. So, what you call rule bending may simply be a style choice. If it works for you, go with it. It's good that you have learned so much at such a young age.

Hey, me too. You pretty much just described my writing style for me :D

kitty marie I’d call it a very organic style of plotting with a loose outline (nothing set in stone) but a general ending in mind. I usually have about three main ideas (some overlapping and some not but come in at a certain point) that I want to happen in the book and a couple of scenes in mind. I may make a list of how these things might occur, and the order in the book may change. As I near completion, that’s when my loose outline turns into an elaborate spreadsheet, when I can finally see the whole picture, polish up bits and pieces, and make sure everything is accurate.

@@MatildaRabbit Wow didn't see your response. From this I take it you are published? What's the name of your book?

lol

Yeah. I switch back and forth, everything on the fly, or sometimes the draft is just their like I found a whole castle in the sky rather then some airships! So both are good, too much plotting can cause issues and I never get to the story, elsewise no plan can stall in the middle. Need a median method.

Intuimalogical Plantser?

*UPDATE*: After some soul searching (viz. staring for way too long at the bottom of a Pringles can) I now accept that I'm a Methodological Panster through and through.

Lol same

I'm also an intuitive pantser

I think this is me too. I have an idea of the plot points and chronological events for the settings, but I dont plot out the characters actions. I just create the characters, their backstories, their personality, the world they live in, and I just let nature run its course. I hate dictating how the characters will react in each moment

Interesting how many people in the comments are prodigy "Intuitive Pantsers" despite Ellen emphasizing how incredibly rare they are 🤔🤔🤔

@@celisewillis we didn't say we were good at it.

@@ndo533 Per what Ellen said in the video, you kind of have to succeed at being an intuitive pantser to be considered one lol. In my experience, many people who think they're "intuitive pantsers" are often newbie authors resistant to learning basic story structure. Look up "katytastic 27 chapter outline" or "Dan Harmon's story circles", just something basic if you're frequently finding yourself editing for months, or even years!

Wait, are actually Tale Foundry? The KZfaq channel? Man, I didn’t KZfaqrs commented on each other!

Wow I am impressed to see you here, I love your content.

This is totally okay. Some styles of stories may require different strategies.

I do think that novellas can benefit from pantsing, and novels especially series require plotting imo! :)

Yeah same

modii I am for my first chapter and for the middle to keep it from sagging and dragging, but for the rest I am methodological pantser.

modii, if you don't like doing "dialogue/action", what do you like? I think my strong point is atmosphere and description.

Yes so much!

For me I just write whatever the heck and somehow i ended up with one of the most intricate and elaborate, while remaining simple, universes I've ever seen lol

Oh I’m very good at dialogue and not so much with the planning… If we all put our heads together we could write an amazing novel!

Intuitive Pantser is a "- So you are a writer? - Yes. - How often do you write? - I dunno. - How do you write? - I dunno - Why did you write it like that? - I dunno" hellscape 🌚

It sure worked for me. Read it all and loved it!

Thanks for sharing. I suspect I might be an intuitive plotter, too. I was aware of the plotting-pantsing spectrum but had never heard of the methodological-intuitive spectrum before. So I've always thought I was weird for plotting meticulously (outlines for chapters, backstories for each character, character arcs, new elements and locations, even a calendar of characters' birthdays and mapping out the work schedule of an entire department to make sure it's all cohesive), but feeling completely frustrated when I try to read books on story / scene structure. If something's not working, I tend to go to a published novel and read and reflect and almost always that sorts out the problem. I write stories with a significant mystery component, so I never get anywhere without a detailed list of clues and red herrings that I tick off as I go (this energises me), yet I've never successfully managed to fit my story into a standard story structure, and to think about what type of scene I'm writing feels very restrictive (goodness, I don't even take notice of when exactly a scene starts and ends). It's helpful to know that I'm not alone in these tendencies!

I literally felt like I was reading thoughts straight from my brain that I’ve been thinking lately. Thanks for taking the time to write this out. Fellow intuitive plotters, unite ♥️

That happens to me, but with smaller scenes and only once I've had the idea for a while. Something to do with subconsciously working on it without you knowing.

​ @Genuine Potatoes Sounds like methodological plotter (but 1000% plotter)

That would be intuitive plotter.

That’s me to a T!! - intuitive plotter

That's exactly how it happens to me 😱😱😱

I'm worried too. She hasn't been active on twitter either and there wasn't any post or info update on her own website. I hope all is well. If anyone knows something, I hope they would let us know.

She hasn't posted in a year!

@@sophieminter0 Hence the comment.

You are so lucky if you're an intuitive pantser. :P I have to flail around and shuffle things around. I always thought I was a plotter, but I think I'm in the methodological pantser category.

I kind of agree with that. I went from writing a story about an adventure with unconventional humor to a story about all types of ignorance, like being naive, holding on to nostalgia, tunnel vision, and being manipulated, ending with the main antagonist having a realization thanks to main character, having to fight the secondary antagonist with the main character, and acquiring the power to change the world for the better.

Yes this , i know the start , the end and a bit in between , and I just write

I’m guessing you’re a methodological writer!

@@LimegreenSnowstorm When I was 14, I started out by completely winging writing. Nowadays, I plan a loose skeleton that allows for improv and change.

Methodological plotter: Hufflepuff Methodological pantser: Slytherin Intuitive plotter: Ravenclaw Intuitive pantser: Gryffindor I think it fits really neatly, actually. Hufflepuff is methodological plotter because they're the most grounded, steady, and reliable, and prefer familiar frameworks. Slytherin is methodological pantser because they have a split between methodically laid-out plans and the ability to think on their feet, being both cunning and ambitious. Ravenclaw is intuitive plotter because they're the most creative, wise, and analytical, and they often find solutions others don't. Gryffindor is intuitive pantser because they're the most impulsive and like to charge ahead without any sort of plan. I don't think it says much at all about any individual writer's house, but for what it's worth, I'm a Slytherin and definitely a methodological pantser, so.

@@nerdywolverine8640 I really can't agree with that Hufflepuff definition.

@@ThreadBomb Well, they're the house most associated with earth, they're loyal, trusting, and fair, and they tend to act like an anchor to those around them. Obviously that's a generalization, but these are rough categories that hardly anyone fits into perfectly. And these traits can manifest differently due to life experience.

I think I might be a methodological pantser, and this theory supports that idea because I'm a Slytherin

Great now I’m gonna be thinking about this all night

But plotting is so much fun!!!

Pants-ers can move a lot of word paint onto the canvas very fast. But after about 5k words, you have to have a plan. And then (as a pants-er myself) you're going to edit PAGES of stuff out. It's likely about the same amount of time spent writing and editing it out as it would be to plot the dang thing in the first place. How do you know the hero is afraid of snakes if you don't look out through his eyes, which you can only do by writing his part of the story?

Jenna is a great performer, she has a great screen presence, and a sharp wit. Of course I love her to death. She's also wrong, A LOT, because she acts like there's only one way. I've watched a few reviews of her books, and they seem to be lukewarm. I've not read any of them, but I do like her Top Ten Favorite Tropes sorts of videos, and find them inspiring, so maybe I would like her stuff. But everything she says not to do, take that advice with a grain of salt.

@@sibylsaint You’re absolutely right! A lot of her advice seems fair, but sometimes I do think she is wrong. I’ve watched some reviews of her books that aren’t great, and the things the reviewer criticised were her own rules. But i do love her top ten tropes videos, they have some pretty good tips

@@sea5063 Stephen King has the same problem. On Writing is full of rules he breaks in his own work.

@@sibylsaint Thanks! I’ll check it out

​@@sibylsaint yeah, his earlier works are absolutely littered with adverbs and similes.

I think that's a great idea! I'm a methodological plotter, and I only realized it (without knowing there was a name for it) last month when I really started getting my outline together. But once I realized that I could actually understand story theory, it felt RIGHT. I've never looked back. Do what feels RIGHT. I think we are all at least that much intuitive :D

I went for engineering rather than writing because I couldn't spell. Little did I know that engineering is writing reports. But it was okay, because auto spell chuck came along, which made writing and wizarding easy.

I can recommend "Character Arcs" by KM Weiland. Although her ideas are a bit formulaic it is a great analysis of what character arcs are and how they work. "Story" by Robert McKee and "Anatomy of Story" by Jack Truby are primarily directed at screenplay writing, but the methodology discussed in them is absolutely applicable to crafting stories for novels.

"Methodical" or "Methodical Logic."

@@TheSouthHoosier she wrote methodological.

sara s good question

@@TheSouthHoosier methodological is a word

@@DanicaChristin I just realized I came off as abrasive. It was not intended. I just find the word antiquated. Recently came across it in The Great God Pan.

Are you subbed?

@@ThreadBomb Yeah I am

Do you mean you don't think about the senses while you write?

@@ThreadBomb I think I just don't use senses as well as other writers