This was the intellectual equivalent of a back alley knife fight.

I want joe to get back to these kinds of talks

I was on a construction crew in 2016 at a old sears building from 1924. Concrete takes a 100 years to cure and concrete is weak and brittle compared to granite. I had to drill out 3)4 inch holes in this 100 year old concrete. It literally took forever and i used many hammer drill bits. The idea of drilling out 6 inch hows on granite!! If you don't have diamonds on the bit you will be there forever! The only people who can appreciate this Ancient work and the true integrity of granite are those who have dealt with and worked with hard stone. People who've never done construction will never be able to understand, period.

"Maybe sometimes your skin is so thick you can't sense anything around you" is one of the best Hancock insults ever.

Joe should use some of that spotify money and excavate the rest of Gobekli Tepe lol

Dude with the beard and blue shirt came outta nowhere lmao

Comparing a cave painting and the largest megalithic site ever discovered and saying “eh basically the same” is absolutely insane.

One thing that strikes me: If only 1/20th of the already-astonishing and game changing Göbekli Tepe site has been excavated, how is it that every archaeologist in the world isn't walking around door-to-door collecting donations like the old _March of Dimes_ to fund the rest?

Randall Carlson was impressively neutral throughout the first 18 minutes of the video. In fact, I didn't even know he was there.

a few years back my brother and i were driving through a state park and at one point we came across an old pickup off the side of the road completely rusted through with trees growing through it. nature can swallow of traces of civilization in decades, so just imagine what 10k years can do.

"Where are the tools?" Did the people who built your house leave the circular saws and nailguns there when they left?

This is one of the main reasons I love JRE. He has skeptics on so they don’t create an echo chamber

The key is underwater archeology. The shoreline for most of humanity used to be100 meters lower due to the ice age.

Randall Carlson is a true G for patiently waiting to speak his piece

"Why didn't they leave tools behind when they intentionally buried this structure?" My dude, tools are valuable especially in ancient times

I super miss this Joe. I remember watching this after work years ago while cooking dinner and then waiting to finish watching it before eating. I still remember that night. Now I often find its a lot of anger from either Joe or guests or something way too focuses on a minute detail of society (i.e. so called culture wars).

As a Turk, it is really funny to hear “hill with a belly”(göbekli tepe) a billion times.

I can’t believe my guy in the blue was able to hold his tongue for 18 minutes

I love when David makes a perfect example of what Graham is saying, in an attempt to refute it. . It is 100% a great explanation for how these two key technologies came about simultaneously in one generation.

Hey Graham...I'm 82 and a grandma and l started reading the Emmanuel Velikofksy books when I was 15. People laugh, but what's so fearful to skeptics about thinking outside the box? It's the "outside the box thinkers people" who have moved civilization forward while the skeptics have worked hard to stone, behead, imprison and burn at the stake the people who have looked at the ocean and said what's over there or looked at the heavens and said those specks of light are trillions of galaxies. I was a Physiotherapist for 43 years of my life and just getting people to think about new techniques was painful. To my way of thinking skeptics are bull headed because they lack imagination. The gentleman skeptic on this Joe Rogan program has the same hardened flat affect look on his face as 30 years or so ago. Keep searching Graham even if we never learn who carved and moved the Easter Island wonders or raised megalithic stones to the tops of mountains!!! ❤

If they buried gobekli tepe on purpose then i imagine they would take all their tools and pottery out

Legend has it that to this day, Joe is still trying to establish that *humans* built it.

Cave paintings to moving megastructures is “not much of a leap” ? It could take months to move a single stone and it would take days to paint.. Absolutely a masterclass by Randall and Graham in critical thinking.. I look forward to the Graham and mainstream dude that are going to debate on Joes show in late august 👍

Shermer: "We can't find pieces of broken pottery or discarded tools, so there is nothing to see here". Hancock: "Did you happen to notice the monumental megalithic construction, by any chance ?"

Dang, Randall just popped out of nowhere like, “Y’all thought I was gonna miss this?”

18 minutes in a new challenger suddenly emerges

Graham sounds more educated, well thought and well spoken than Michael Shermer and Graham is not a trained scientist. Meanwhile Michael Shermer seems to be trying very hard to dismiss Graham's theories with weak arguments and he was fighting a losing battle.

Your dad and his weird friends talking in the living room while you fall asleep on the couch

“People have been carving stone for thousands of years” yes that’s the point

Joe rogan “so we agree they are human”.

I have no clue how I’ve missed this podcast for so long. I’ve been glued since. Thank you for bringing the coolest topics ever. As a closet history fanatic this debate is amazing. Well done, very well done. New fan here 💪🏾👍🏾💪🏾👍🏾

One of my personal theories about ancient civilizations is the reformability of metal. I suspect that people all throughout history would find metal from some older civilization and melt it down and reuse it because it is easier to reform an old metal tool than it is to excavate new metal. Clay pottery as well can be reused, just smash the pots to dust and let them sit in water for a few months and you have fresh clay. Even if it took a couple years, it would still be a huge source of reusable clay to have a pit somewhere soaking old clay objects. Also, things like wood and leather, they can be taken to make new things, and wood can always be burned. So I think that they could have easily had all these things, but in the eons since many people have come in and picked apart the reusable materials until there is nothing left.

If it was deliberately buried wouldnt it make sense they took their stuff with them and didn’t bury those

When Hancock let's fly the f-bomb, you know he's real frustrated.

My ancestors were hunter gatherers just a few generations back and from what I know there was very little FREE time. As a 65 year old man who hunts, fishes and gathers from the land for fun, even with all the tech (jeep, gun with scope, boat and four wheeler), to feed, clothe and shelter a family of four would take a considerable amount of time from the day. If they were agricultural and the climate was as volatile as stated, then crop failures would not allow them enough food to support the workforce. Logic would dictate they did both and maybe had to adapt their methods as the climate varied.

I've seen this episode in full a few times and always catch myself on the clips. Every episode with Randal and Graham is worth watching. I would and do recommend it.

During the conversation, they talk about the possibility that the builders of Gobeklitepe were hunter-gatherers and then that they were agrarians, but there is an important and overlooked space between the two, which is sedentary Neolithic cultures. These are people who settled in an area around an abundant, naturally occurring food source. In the case of Gobeklitepe, that food source was the ancient Einkorn wheat that is native to the slopes and valleys of the nearby mountains. Geneticist Spencer Wells said that all of the 17 varieties of wheat cultivated globally are genetically linked to this original native wheat. So people settled around it, ate it, drank beer made from it, watched it grow, learned to cultivate and all the while, they were adapting to the new concept of settlement. One of the first problems that arise when people begin to settle is waste management. Waste is a problem because it attracts pests, disease, and animals and eventually large predators that can be threatening to the vulnerable members of the colony. There is no evidence of habitation at Gobeklitepe because it was probably situated remotely from the dwellings. There is evidence of the site being in use for at least 2,000 to 3,000 years. Imagine how many people would have been born and died during that period of time. So what did they do with the dead? I think the stone circles were used for sky burials, which is a method of internment still used today in Tibet. The surrounding landscape was not very well suited for in the ground burials. Shallow graves were dangerous because they could be excavated easily by animals and the animals would cultivate an appetite for human flesh and would cause them to prey on the local population. I suppose cremation could have been an option, but it could be challenging in that environment to gather enough wood to fuel fires intense enough to cremate. Vultures do not and would not adapt to preying on humans. It makes a lot of sense to place the human remains in a stone circle with raised walls that were only open to the sky so that vultures and other birds could clean the bones, which can then be gathered and stored or buried by the surviving family members. There is evidence of both small t shaped pillars and bone burial under the plaster floors of domestic dwellings in nearby Catalhoyuk, one of the earliest known housing structures. Over time, as ritual sky burial use declined, people could have, simply out of habit or because it was the right thing to do in this place, used it as a landfill. It could have also been a place where people throw something in for good luck, like a penny in a fountain or when people rub the nose of a statue or something like that. My feeling is that the best place to look for clues of why these structures are there and what they were used for, is human nature. The habits, instincts, fears and desires that are naturally and deeply a part of all of us. The better we understand our own nature, the more we will unravel these kinds of mysteries.

Love how blue shirt man appears for the first time 18 minutes in with no explanation lmao

Graham's story about the New Scientist magazine is pretty revealing of how his brain works. He made it sound very ironic and vindicating, but if you listen closely, all that's happened is he saw the cover story that was published and decided in his head that his book "essentially" said the same thing. "Civilization is older and more mysterious than we thought" is a pretty broad/generic idea and it wouldn't even necessarily be remarkable if Graham's critics published the same phrase that Graham had published without realizing it, but just to reiterate, they did not publish the same phrase because Graham never published that phrase, he just retroactively used the phrase to self-describe his book and declared himself a victory. Finally, Graham's book is not "essentially" about civilization being older and more mysterious. The essential message of his book, which is much more specific and is written in the TITLE AND SUBTITLE, is that a higher civilization influenced all other lesser civilizations that came after it.

Bearded guy pops out of nowhere like Gobekli Tepe

Hancock: "There's 50x as much as what's on the surface still buried." Me: Get the damn shovel!!!

JRE at its prime. Interesting topics from not very well known people who have nothing but facts and very colorful opinions about things that actually matter

Im old, but I just started watching Joe Rogan. And I wish he did more talks like this.

this was a great episode/argument/debate..👏👏👏

Attention Work Crew: This site is to be buried with reverence, and your tools are incredibly valuable. Please remove all tools from the work site at the end of your shift. Failure to do so will result in termination, and may enrage the gods. Thank you for your cooperation. - The Management

I'm in turkey now I will go and find the answers stand by folks Update 2023 people keep asking for updates i only encountered cannibal chickens my mission ended there. My conclusion Turkey is a land of ancient structures and cannibal chickens go check it out 👽

Imagine building an epic mega structure with your own 2 hands just for some dude with a piece of paper to ask you bUt wHerE’s dA tRaSh

22:05 exactly Joe Rogan! Joe Rogan had him completely stumped with this question. It's like saying we could build the burj khalifa but not a house!

‘Maybe sometimes your skin is so thick, you can’t sense anything around you’ hahaha

If Mr Hancock would’ve said, “you argue with everything I say,” the other guy would’ve said, “I do not.”

I could listen to Graham and Randall speak all day and night.

18:19 that Randal jump scare lol I totally forgot he was in this discussion too

The dude in the blue showed up like he beamed into the starship enterprise...

The underlining of anger n spite between them two is real

I am an Engineer that works with GIS and completed my doctorate in Megalithic Steucrures. I've been to Gobekli Tepe, Karan Tepe, several other Tepes in Turkey and several Tells in Syria and Lebanon (which are older that GT). The constant return to the cave paintings is extremely Euroscebtric....and there are his motives. Several academic papers have been written on the subject...the latest from the University of Istanbul in December 2022...Archeology is coming around.

Great episode 👍

There should be more conversations like this. The debate back and forth is great.

I love these debates. America needs more of this.

Having Randall Carlson in the cut is legendary

It's so interesting that you have no choice but to learn something from this. If we can't have a discussion like this and debate about any subject, we shouldn't sit at the same table.

What's impressive is joe can insert himself into conversations and be as just as believable as experts

And after that, Michael and Graham went into the cage and Joe narrated the fight. Randall was the referee. Graham won by submission, Michael went to sleep from a choke, he couldn't even tap out in time.

My 10th grade physic’s teacher showed me this a while back I love coming back every once and a while

r. i. p. Claus Schmit, who did the work to show us our history in Anatolia, Turkey. Fascinating stuff.

Hancock with an "F BOMB" out of know where 10/10

I grew up in PNG - when I was about 8 I cut my forearm falling on a rock. My Papuan friend ripped the skin of a citrus 🍊 fruit. Thumbnail sliced it into quarters. After the first 1/2 hour the first piece socked up all the wound fluid. The second was strapped using the spine of a fern like plant. The skin dried shrank and squeezed the wound without stitches also insects stay away from citric acid. Very smart and I respected my learning in another culture as a boy in the 60’s.

How very interesting to hear these people debate and discuss theories

If Shermer is correct, we are to believe that a group of hunter/gatherers stopped roaming while looking for food, and built one of the most impressive stone structures ever constructed. The length of the project and the number of people it would have taken to build such a structure would have required them to settle in one place. This would require them to farm and build dwellings to remain at the site and build the structure. I also don’t think that hunter/gatherer groups traveled in enormous groups of people. It is obvious that if primitive people built this with primitive tools it would have required lots of people to do it. For me, all points to advanced civilization.

This Guy: "Why is there no tools or trash at this obviously sacred place?" Me: I've been to a bunch of churches and have never seen the tools used to build them still laying about or left my trash behind inside them.

Hunter gatherers have to move about so that they do not over hunt an area and run out of food. They do not hunt one area long enough to carve 20ft long slabs out of stone, then carve faces and animals out of the stone in 3D, then move that stone and place it in a fashion that points to magnetic polar earth positions or astrological positions in the sky. Aboriginals were hunter gatherers when the English came here to Australia. They do not have megalithic sites. They did not do carvings into or out of stone. There are no pyramids in Australia. There are no astrological cave paintings. Nothing indicating knowledge of north or other compass direction. Nothing indicating knowledge of earths circumferance or longtitude/latitude position.

Interesting watching this 6 years later where archeologists uncovered residential communities & businesses stretching across the land finding decorative beads, tools, etc within those 'communities'... I get Michael's thought process because I once was stubborn as well (still am but catching myself). At the end of the day we should never conclude on anything until everyone agrees on the answer. There's so much we don't understand and still uncovering that we won't answer in our lifetime. If anything we are still pioneers

I’m trying to follow but my brain might explode. 😅

I love how Joe every now and than has to have verbal reassurance that they are still talking about humans and not aliens constructing the temple lol

random: good morning Shremer: I dont really agree..

wow... a solid 18 minutes and 17 seconds of silence from this man. Respect.

Great debate

I'm so confused by Michael's argument or main point, it literally just sounds like he's just stirring shitpot of mainstream archaeology. It must be so frustrating to have a productive conversation in that field man 🙄

This is prime JRE. His legendary casts with Hancock, Carlson and Trussell will never be recaptured.

Where can I watch the whole debate?

The way Graham talks is seriously just so incredibly satisfying. He just knows his shit and he knows he knows it's fucking LEGIY

Dude keeps on asking what they mean by "advanced" and they keep saying the construction was big, and intricately carved, but no one seems to drive home the addtional idea of the complex math involved

It was hilarious when Randall started to speak. I had no idea he was even there.

This was a great debate.

“Where r teh metal tools?” Lmfao

if gobekli teppe is a place of worship, i don't think they'd be dumping their garbage there . . .

If you look at NYC and Afghanistan, you’d wouldn’t think they’d be in the same world, let alone the same year in 2021. Whatever was there 12,000 years ago, lived like that and given the environment and the way the world has changed it has preserved everything the way it is. Certain parts of the world lived what seemed like different time frames. Not sure if that makes sense

I've probably watched this ten times, it's that interesting

Having Graham Hancock and Randall Carson together is always amazing

Damn, I can feel the tension in the debate 3 yrs later

Joe keeps mentioning how "we know it was humans" lmao he wants to believe aliens did it so bad

More debates! And more Graham!!

Gopelki tepe:- a site where Noah alias Murugan regenerated animals from the dna which he took in this boat before Noah floods. Noah did not carry physical animals but DNA. T pillar contains box animals figure and dna structure.

We have civilizations today that still live like hunter gatherers. Why couldnt there be different peoples at different levels of development in the past?

The world needs for open talk like this and less controlled speech from investors. Thanks Joe.

I like how, he said 11,600 years Around the same time as Meltwater Pulse 1B took place. Might explain the "abandonment" of it.

Joe is the king of chat shows, Ive not seen any interviewer’s past and present that are anywhere near as interesting as him and the guests he has on.

While Michael Schermer raises some decent points, his general closed-mindedness on this topic amazes me, especially when he says a cave painting is more impressive/challenging than the largest megalithic structure known to mankind today.

18:16 *a higher dimensional being joined the chat *

At the very end when Shermer states that cave paintings are equally impressive to mega monolithic sites, is absurd. It highlights the exact struggle that Graham had been claiming existed this entire episode but that Shermer was denying existed. "Mainstream" science doesn't want to do science things, such as asking question to push their own boundaries and assumptions. I'm here 6 years later, its great that Graham and Randall have a huge following where they can highlight some of these insane mysteries that others seemingly were quick to gloss over.

Man the old studio looks so cozy.