The Heralds | Rhythm of War Shardcast

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The Heralds | Rhythm of War Shardcast

Рет қаралды 19,682

Күн бұрын

Last episode, we talked about the Oathpact and the Desolations, and now we are digging into the Heralds after Rhythm of War. We discuss what it means to be a full Herald, Nale's past, memories and insanity (and the Rhythm of War Part Four epigraphs), and oddly enough, the Blessing of Stability.
This episode we have Eric (Chaos), Ian (Weiry), David (Windrunner), Grace (thegatorgirl), and Evgeni (Argent)!
Our previous episode on Oathpact and Desolations: • The Oathpact and Desol...
Rhythm of War epigraphs: coppermind.net...
Thumbnail art build is Vedel by Howard Lyon: brandonsanders...
00:00 Introductions
00:51 Heralds Jezrien's Death
16:38 Is Nale a Full Herald?
26:38 Memory and Insanity
41:25 Nale Visions
53:01 Modern Mysteries
1:11:56 Who's That Cosmere Character
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Come talk with us and the community on the 17th Shard Discord: / discord
Want to learn more about the cosmere and more? The Coppermind Wiki is where it's at: coppermind.net
Read all Words of Brandon on Arcanum: wob.coppermind...
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Send your Who's That Cosmere Characters to wtcc@17thshard.com
#brandonsanderson #stormlightarchive #cosmere

Пікірлер: 78

@17thShard 2 жыл бұрын

Splitting these last two episodes made this one a bit shorter than I expected, but don't worry, the next two episodes are WoBs and they will be pretty long ones. -Eric

@Ssarevok 2 жыл бұрын

I'm getting behind on all my youtube to-watch stuff anywya because if the Tour de France, so this one being short actualle helps. :)

@telekinesys7025 2 жыл бұрын

Only Shardcast can upload 1 1/2 hour episodes and call them "short"

@GoErikTheRed 2 жыл бұрын

Imagine apologizing that your upload was only 1 1/2 hours

@heatherrockwell9012 2 жыл бұрын

Eric going from apologizing constantly for long episodes to apologizing whenever there's an episode under 2.5 hours is character development

@danscantland8066 2 жыл бұрын

Given that Taln's blade was his arc in TWoK prime, I would expect that part of his quest in the back half is finding it, and in the process, himself

@connor_phillipz5689 2 жыл бұрын

I've always assumed that Hoid sent Taln's honorblade somewhere either safe or very relevant. I don't see any way he lets such a powerful artifact fall into the hands of people he doesn't trust.

@MajorReynolds92 2 жыл бұрын

I'd be very interested in knowing what Nale and his Highspren's relationship is like

@Shirohitsuji 2 жыл бұрын

Saying Nale or any other Heralds are not "counted" as Heralds seems weird to me. Considering, although a theory, the likelihood that some Herald other than Taln died and returned, triggering the Desolation means that they are, perhaps in a broken manner, but still Heralds. Unless you think dying and returning to Braize restored their Heraldness, which feels odd.

@Mwezi828 2 жыл бұрын

Maybe Vedel has Taln's Blade. (If the Liss = Vedel theory is true) Last we saw Liss Jasnah had assigned her to spy on Aesudan at the palace in Kholinar (disguised as maid), so she would have been in Kholinar when Taln arrived. For reference, this theory is based on the idea that the Heralds go mad according to their DIvine Attributes - Vedel is 'Loving, Healing' so an assassin would fit (and she has dark hair like Liss). Liss is an assassin who uses a Shardblade (which is not her Honorblade), so she would have had one handy to swap, which could explain where the one Taln has now came from. Why she took it, if she kept it or passed it on, I can't say. And even if Liss isn't Vedel, she could still be behind the theft.

@clairekholin6935 Жыл бұрын

The honorblades were probably designed after mundane swords of the time while later shardblades were larger because they were refined over years of learning the limits of practicality given the properties of the metal. The difference would simply be that radients simply wanted to have bigger blades so they made them bigger.

@triplebog 2 жыл бұрын

There seemed to be an idea that the crew got hung up on about nale, and the other heralds on roshar, not being "full heralds" because them being on roshar didn't trigger a desolation. Was this a conclusion drawn from some earlier point? I always thought the books made it clear that it's not a herald being on roshar that triggered the desolation, but the act of breaking and being flung back to roshar that triggers the desolation. Or alternatively, the presence of heralds on braize was what prevents the desolations. No need to introduce this weird idea of them "losing their heraldship partially" especially since it seems very clear in the books that they are still full heralds and the whole trapping them on braize would still happen. Otherwise why would the fused go to such lengths to obliterate Jezrian's soul rather than just killing him? The whole point of that scene seemed like it was that the fused had discovered how to kill the heralds without having them get warped to braize

@crypticpaisley88 2 жыл бұрын

On the memories, Hoid has to keep his in breaths. I'll have to look for the exact reference, but somewhere he says that he has to do that in order to keep his thousands of years of memories straight. Maybe this is where the Heralds are having trouble, because you just can't fit that many memories into a "human" (or some version of human) brain, and they don't have a mechanism to store them externally (or aren't aware of one yet).

@oswinhull4203 5 күн бұрын

Based on the final Wit chapter it seems like Odium makes Wit lose his breaths then he loses his memory in a similar way to the heralds. Kaladin happens to find Wits flute. I think the flute has a bunch of breaths in it which will be used to restore the Heralds memories.

@baker8186 2 жыл бұрын

This long-shardcast crew is now the “Dawncast” in my headcannon. Keep up the great (and long) work!

@diepie5144 2 жыл бұрын

1:04:40 it could be that Tarnavastium is heavier than the material that makes up normal shardblades also Bridge 4 has Jezrien's blade for a time, and Szeth trained with it. Never does anyone remark on a significant difference in weight

@barnes9211 2 жыл бұрын

For 50:17, I definitely agree. i think Nale was trying to strengthen his sense of self by dedicating himself wholeheartedly to a cause, so that there’d be no room for doubts or anxiety or anything. He’d only need to act as expected of him from his oaths. It’s like how a lot of people join the army because they feel like they don’t know who they are, and think rigidity and routine might help.

@raylawler13 2 жыл бұрын

Jester Lavorre. I miss Jester so much.

@addamsixx7915 5 ай бұрын

fluffernutter

@thet33kihut 2 ай бұрын

I think that the reason that the raysium blade was able to suck in Jezrien's soul was that the attached gemstone had a light vacuum, which is new technology developed by humans since the False Desolation?

@dookieshoe2905 2 жыл бұрын

I would say Kel has only been a Cognitive Shadow since roughly the Hierocracy on Roshar. The Hierocracy and the Catecendra happened at roughly the same time 300 years ago on both planets. Though a year isn't the same for both planets so I say roughly the same time of 300 years. He definitely hasn't been around for thousands of years since a desolation.

@crypticpaisley88 2 жыл бұрын

Jezrien remaining for a time in the gem reminds me of what happened to Fuzz in Secret History. He kept saying that Ruin had already killed him, yet he was still around. I figured it was the same as what he told Kelsier - people with more investiture hang around in the cognitive realm longer, and Fuzz had a LOT more investiture than Kelsier, so he was still around even though he was dead. So it seems like something similar happened with Jezrien, because he certainly had his fair share of investiture, and maybe the gem gave him a small connection to the physical realm that allowed him to hang around for just a bit longer than he otherwise would have.

@mordirit8727 Жыл бұрын

The way Fuzz, the Lord Ruler and Kelsier (later, after having been Preservation for a while) made it sound was that with enough investiture death is literally a choice. The more investiture you had the longer you last, but there seems to be a threshold where you can literally say “I’m not dying, never mind all that”. So I don’t think that’s what happened with Jezrien

@Heluctis 2 жыл бұрын

Great video guys, I cannot wait for back 5 and the enventual Herald flashbacks

@djbrouwer7712 2 жыл бұрын

The memory issues might be a magical case of SDAM. Where they have decent semantic memory but not autobiographical memory.

@rycbar7198 Жыл бұрын

I think the memory issues is arriving due to the fact the herald were not just physically torture but also mentally (where they might have been seen things that were not real).

@oswinhull4203 5 күн бұрын

Taln has to still have his blade. Maybe he just had another shard blade when he died and since he didn't really die he took it with him to Braize or something. Based on how he was able to catch darts out of the air I seriously doubt someone was able to take his blade from him.

@Diddykartdui Жыл бұрын

8:35 this made me imagine in Taln's book that all the other heralds will have moved on, and his final moments on roshar will be him fighting back as he's finally ripped into the beyond

@oneukum 2 жыл бұрын

5:00 They fought together for years. They would have a strong Connection anyway. 14:00 The dagger is not just a piece of Raysium internally. Otherwise you could not "reverse the polarity". The stuff must have more features. 20:00 How do you keep Taln's blade? What prevents him from just dismissing it? 33:00 Kalak knows what his attributes are supposed to be. You could attribute rejecting them as rejecting his role as a Herald. No need to invoke magic as an explanation. 58:30 Moash probably has learned to adjust his blade's length. That a Honorblade is recognizable just means that they have a default form they revert to if unused. 1:11:30 What use is a new Oathpact against insane Fused while the fighting will be done with anti-Investiture weapons anyway? 1:23:30 The animals of First of the Sun definitely use magic

@rbkskillz 2 жыл бұрын

Around 1:11:00 why would the need to reforge the oathpact now? They have the thing that kills fused for good : anti void light. The oathpact was never a good long term solution to begin with, they should have started looking into a better solution after the second(?) Desolation when they realized that all it takes is for one herald to break, to release the fused from braise and start another desolation.

@thekwjiboo Жыл бұрын

Since Brandon has said that, much like matter in our own universe, investiture cannot be destroyed, just moved around (more or less, its more complicated than that, but "moved around" is an OK way to explain it) So when stormlight meets anti-stormlight or void light meets anti-void light, the investiture isn't destroyed, it's just converted into energy (like the explosion in Navani's lab). So eventually some idiot will think "hey, I know, how about we shoot a crapload of anti-void light and shoot it into the everstorm? Then humanity destroys another planet in the Rosharian system lmao.

@liul 2 жыл бұрын

Yesss, thank-you

@westlink1985 Жыл бұрын

Nale is still a Herald, but he is also a Radiant as well. He spoke the oaths and bonded a spren, he says this to Szeth.

@17thShard Жыл бұрын

Yes, all of this is true. Did we say something that contradicts that? -Eric

@SiempreConMago20Nov 2 жыл бұрын

Oh but there is mind magic in Roshar, that's how the surge of transformation works! (This is half-serious half-I know that's not what you ment but still kind of true)

@HSuper_Lee 2 жыл бұрын

I remember the blessing of stability. I actually think it would be a good one to have. Also, I will continue to find it odd that investiture is associated with life and living, to where simply holding a large amount affects your lifeforce and perception, yet holding enough investiture to make you immortal seems to lead to insanity. This is a suspicious contradiction to me.

@willcaster819 2 жыл бұрын

It’s less about the investiture causing insanity and more about the fact that human minds are only designed to contain so much information, as such after several hundred years memories start to get overwritten. Extra bonus, watching thousands of people die around you while you remain the same has got to take a toll on you mentally.

@HSuper_Lee 2 жыл бұрын

@@willcaster819 I understand that. I guess I'm just surprised investiture doesn't have more of an insulating effect against that though.

@willcaster819 2 жыл бұрын

@@HSuper_Lee That’s understandable. I guess I’ve just always accepted that Investiture can’t heal mental wounds. Realmaticlly it doesn’t do that because a person with a mental illness perceives that illness as being a part of themselves, it is a literal cognitive block, and so Investiture doesn’t heal it. That would be especially true with immortals because the change happens very gradually over centuries to the point where they might not notice it. From a narrative perspective, having a substance capable of just solving characters mental health issues would feel very cheap and honestly a little insensitive. As for Investiture having an insulating effect, I would argue that it does, you just need to know how to use it à la Hoid. Though I suppose one could argue that Hoid is himself a little insane, but who am I to judge.

@willcaster819 2 жыл бұрын

@@HSuper_Lee actually, I take that back. Stormlight healed Renarin’s epilepsy right? If that’s the case than I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about.

@HSuper_Lee 2 жыл бұрын

@@willcaster819 You might know more than you think. It could be argued that there's a difference between cognitive (in the traditional, not cosmere sense) illness and neurological illness. Basically, investiture might be able to heal brain damage, but not how a person thinks. In which case, epilepsy might qualify as neurological and thus physical enough to be healed.

@fenris5932 2 жыл бұрын

the bit about Ishar stealing half of the honorblades now just makes me imagine him wielding all 5 at once like he's Killer Bee

@JessietheSleepyKoala 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for putting this image in my head :chefkiss:

@JessietheSleepyKoala 2 жыл бұрын

Imagine if Ishtar just started rapping 😂

@fenris5932 2 жыл бұрын

@@JessietheSleepyKoala oh God no. If that happens I'm taking a break from cosmere novels for a while, maybe I'll come back after 20 novels worth of space

@EllenSmyth Жыл бұрын

If Nale has a babe, then I'm going to hop aboard the Chana Davar train. And that would make one more (including Ash) female herald have some backstory. Seriously, I don't believe Sanderson will leave us hanging.

@chandrireddy8230 2 жыл бұрын

The blessing of stability 😭😭 getting me ready for lost metal 😵‍💫

@Kabissz 2 жыл бұрын

I think Ian is right on the money. The heralds suffer basically from dementia, it's not that they are forgetting, they are losing mental capacity (for example memory retrieval), which was probably onset by their minds (cognitive aspects) have been overloaded with way too much data. I also agree with Gatorgirl that the fact that most of the thousands of years of experience is pure torture escalats the problem. Eric as a teacher think of what the experience of constant pain/discomfort motivates a psyche to do. I think the herald's minds breaking could even be viewed as self defense (failed, but still).

@bencarrier8289 2 жыл бұрын

Evgeni is slipping. When David mentioned gathering the blades and reforging them all like Adonalsium, was the perfect chance to drop a "Blade-onalsium" joke. Otherwise, great episode, as always.

@ChocolatierRob 2 жыл бұрын

It does not really matter that Moash did not have the specific Intent when he stabbed Jezrien because the same happened with Spook when he gained pewter. The intent was not carried by Spook himself but by Ruin, so logically the same principle would apply to Moash and Rayse.

@davidmorales-dm7xm 2 жыл бұрын

Regarding memory, most of us don't remember what we did in January. Being someone who has lived for thousands of years, you are bound to not remember correctly what happened millennia ago

@God-nw9qd 2 жыл бұрын

vedel is Liss!

@jamesporrell5687 2 жыл бұрын

I’ve always felt that one line about the Honorblades was hinting at yet another dark twist to be revealed. The wording seems very intentional to me. Maybe Vedel is in jail somewhere. Can’t be master of keys in prison!

@radiantprime8336 2 жыл бұрын

Love this crew. Great video! You guys get some rest! Lol

@studynot757 2 жыл бұрын

I kind of assume with the breaking of their Oaths they lost access to Honors power which has for millennia fortified their mental state/capacity

@wraith.ferron 2 жыл бұрын

*Hoboken gets mention* Anyone that's been in the fandom for more than a few months: "Oh, no. This'll just cause more confusion."

@micahlarimer155 Жыл бұрын

I don't know why ian liked his theory at 1:03:07 so much.

@drakedecker4874 2 жыл бұрын

I’m on my lunch break at work.. but what ability does Ishar use to gain momentary clarity? I think this ability is what Dalinar will use to make Taln an absolute badass with tons of answers to boot for a chapter or two.

@bruceh9780 2 жыл бұрын

That was a very tired Caw from Eric at the end.

@17thShard 2 жыл бұрын

I was indeed very tired! We recorded these back-to-back and so the recording was nearly five hours long. It's amazing how much sitting on your butt can be so completely exhausting. -Eric

@thekwjiboo Жыл бұрын

Maybe Kalak's memory and his inability to make a decision are connected. He doesn't want to remember the decision he made to abandon Taln on Braize.

@thekwjiboo Жыл бұрын

I mean, it would explain why the intro to the whole archive was from Kalak's POV. He's suppressed his memory, and the concept of making a decision is a subconscious trigger for him.

@Stormhawk777 2 жыл бұрын

Jester lavore WTCC? Very cool so many critters are here

@willmunkholm5958 2 жыл бұрын

I always read it as the affliction the heralds and kelsier share was being a cognitive shadow

@kandkchadwick-fisher3158 Жыл бұрын

Since we know that Taln did not break but someone else did, I don't think whether they have their blade and are considered a herald on Roshar matters.

@bhw_ace7476 2 жыл бұрын

Do we know how the people from Ashyn came to Roshar?

@kennymiller5837 2 жыл бұрын

41:05 if you can steal mental fortitude with a spike, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it might be some type of investiture? In which case, you could possibly store it in a nicrosil metal mind and then compound it.

@mymarcster Жыл бұрын

Mentioned specifically in the ars arcanum for bands of morning that this is possible.

@kennymiller5837 Жыл бұрын

@@mymarcster huh. I've missed that on all my re reads lol