But have you considered that removing banding is more important than winning?

Finally Seth recognizes that Shivan Gorge is not only the best land of the cycle, but might be the best land of all time if not for Sorrow's Path.

Yeah, I also think Shivan Gorge is the best in the cycle... god damn 1 damage to face for ONLY 3 MANA per turn is so op!

Designer: Marketing wants us to add a new cycle for the upcoming set. What flavorful, exciting, new game mechanic do you want me to do for white? Head Designer: Make it suck.

I started actually playing magic at a shop in 2010/2011, so bolt was in standard at the time. I remember a guy telling me bolt was part of a cycle with giant growth, which I thought was so cool. I knew both of those cards and had no idea they were even related, so it was sort of funny. He starts telling me the rest of the cycle and then got to white, I legitimately thought he was playing a joke on me. I made him pull it up on his phone and prove he wasn't kidding lol.

With Tolaria, I wonder if they thought the idea of making a creature lose banding in the middle of combat was too much of a rules headache?

That last (yet first?) cycle breaks an unwritten rule of cycles, being split across rarities. All of them are commons but Ancestral Recall, a rare.

I would guess Tolaria’s timing restriction was to avoid confusion about what happens when a card loses banking that is already part of a band and Wizards just chose a really heavy handed way to do it.

Clarion Ultimatum is playable in Commander though. It reads "search for 5 basic lands and put them onto the battlefield tapped"

I wish Healing Salve gave up to three target permanents you control shroud until end of turn. It would protect your creatures and your lands, since land destruction was so prevalent in the early days of magic. It would still be playable today and make people think twice when they go to Wasteland while your opponent has white mana up.

Shivan Gorge should have been something like: "tap: add R for each Mountain you control", or "tap: add R for each sorcery in your graveyard" or something like that. But it seems the devs hated red back in the day.

I'm pretty sure there's an error at 17:58 and it shows Shivan Gorge as the best and Tolarian Academy as the worst.

A good topic for mtggoldfish podcast would be trying to balance these cycles, nerfing the best and buffing the worst, imagining what those cards could've looked like when they got printed.

The alpha Instants are often called "boons" or the boon cycle.

18:02 Did you intend to swap Tolarian Academy and Shivan Gorge?

I remember a fun little story the older players who taught me how to play Magic told me about the Alpha cycle. The mana gods came to the five colors and told them they could have an ability based on the number three at instant speed. Red immediately shouted "THREE DAMAGE!" Green was next with "I WANNA GIVE A CREATURE +3/+3!" Blue calmly said, "draw three cards." Black, liking Blue's way of thinking, said "gain three mana." Then the gods said to White, "all we have left is prevent 3 damage or gain 3 life." White said, "gimmie both."

im sorry but pyrokinesis is a legacy staple. bounty of the hunt saw play in standard. and contagion use to see play in vintage

I love these style of videos. Super excited to watch this one!

So I was curious and decided to try and do a breakdown of colors by best and worst. I counted Best Blue: 5, Green: 2, Black: 2, Red: 2, White: 1 Worst White: 6, Red: 2, Blue: 2 , Green: 1, Black: 0 Note: I'm ignoring the Atog cycle, since all of them are worst, but one Counting all three colors for the ultimatums Only counting the Force cycle for counters Counting Embercleave and Great Henge as best I also wanted to see what happened if you counted all the free counter spell cycles and ignored the ultimatums. If you do that then: Best Blue: 7, Green: 2, Black: 1, Red: 1, White: 1 Worst White: 5, Red: 4, Blue: 1, Green: 1, Black: 0 Interestingly, Black was never the worst in the cycle, and green only got in through the ultimatum and the free commander cycle.

Karakas being able to bounce opposing Commanders is already very strong. But the other problem is it makes your commander immune to a lot of forms of removal. If someone board wipes you can just send your Commander back to your hand. They try to exile it? Back to hand. They try to darksteel mutation it? Back to hand.

A cycle containing Healing Salve and Ancestral Recall will obviously be the most unbalanced

Love how white and red were constantly in the bottom back in the day.

A buddy of mine needed to borrow an intervention pact for an ad nauseum deck, but couldnt remember the name so he asked for "the white force of will" so i brought him scars of the veteran (along with the pacts)

Tolaria is probably upkeep only because they didn't want the headache of figuring out what happens if you remove banding after a band has been formed.

I think an interesting thought experiment is to ask: what number would you change each card to in order to make them balanced? You don't change the abilities at all, just the number. So obviously Ancestral Recall is the best and would stay at 3. Now for the rest to be approximately equal: Dark Ritual - 5? Lightning Bolt - 7? Giant Growth - 10? Healing Salve - 100? Maybe 1000?

Great video! Sarcatog seems the next best where if you have a bunch of artifact tokens I could see it really going off...the rest are just BAD

I run an embercleave/circle of loyalty knight deck. It has a lot of other things going for it too, but so far it see pretty good success. Embercleave has won me a lot of games. Circle of loyalty is more situational, but functions as one of many stat boosters that work together to beef up knights.

Sweet overview. Thanks!

18:18 I still have immense nostalgia from when I was a kid, and I got to play 4x Tolarian Academy (with mind over Matter, windfall, Time Spiral, etc.) in Type II (read Standard) at the State Championship! I had a ton of fun with that deck, but I was ill prepared for my opponents Sideboard options against me. I did get to pull off an FTK in Type II (I don’t think that I have ever pulled that off in any other competitive event in my life). To this day, Tolarian Academy is one of my favorite cards ever printed!….

Would have like to seen the Words of cycle , where you can replace a draw with and effect. But great content as always

“Talking endlessly about how good free counterspells are is pretty boring” oof I bet they’ll never have a podcast on the topic, then!

I used to have great fun running Scars of the Veteran with Veteran Body Guard. It was extra nice to pull as a surprise when an opponent tricked into a big kevek’s tourch to finish with channel or something only to stop 7 with no mana, live and finish them next turn. Contagion saw heavy play too. In my experience the green one saw the least play.

Nice video! Only thing I don't agree with is that all the free spells from alliances save the fow are bad. Nowadays yes, but in their time, the contagion was staple on all necro decks (I would say even more played that the FoW), all stompy decks played at least 2 bounty of the hunt, and the pyrokinesis are still played on the sideboard of goblins and other decks. Scars of the veteran were always a hideous card, that's true xD.

Only Seth would make a video of him eating this much crow over The Circle of Loyalty. I could hear the dark cloud of his prediction in every word.

I have a Jodah the Unifer deck built around legendary Knights (I call it "Knights of the Round") and Circle of loyalty is quite good in it since it's a 6 drop legendary with built in cost reduction making it perfect to continue Jodah's cascading shenanigans, and since every legendary you cast when circle is out nets you a 2/2 vigi knight you'll end up with extra bodies for chump blocking deaththouchers and the like, that being said I agree in comparison to the other cards of that cycle it comes up quite short in the power level.

Phantatog, Enchanted Evening and Aura Thief is a hilarious combo to do on your opponents, though 😂

Could've talk about my boy Pendelhaven, as it had some fun uses !

Love these video’s!

Pact of the Titan is actually used by Belcher decks these days with Recross the Paths. I've certainly seen it more often than the white pact.

Absolutely loved this vid!

I get that Circle of Loyalty is an mtggoldfish meme, but at least I remembered that card. Does anyone know what the blue member of that cycles does without looking it up? Has anyone _ever_ seen it?

Ah, I remember the fast equips well. This is back when I was freshly learning the game, and my friend insisted that equips can't ever do anything, because their text says to attach, not to equip, so there'd never be a circumstance where an equip was actually equipped. I'm realizing as I look back, he didn't know what he was talking about.

I still wonder what the original design philosophy behind whites "prevent damage" theme. Back even when I stopped at the original Zendikae block they still had cards that made you pay a premium just to gain life, so I really have to wonder beyond sudden combat/anti-burn tricks just hoe much thought was behind preventing damage to anything, and these were printed before planeswalkers so its not like you could stop them from getting sniped

Fun fact. In the 5th dawn equipment cycle, the worst one, healers headdress, actually does see very slight play in the cPDH format, specifically in certain pure sight marrow brews. Thought it might be bad, it is played!

Im loving these educational magic videos

Are uro and kroxa part of a cycle because i never found any others. Also the eidolons from theros are also honeravle mentions as only the black one was any good and only for niche best of one use

An interesting historical note: Back in Alpha (and I believe until the rules rework with 6th Edition), Giant Growth was a 100% save a creature from Lightning Bolt card, as damage from spells and abilities didn't actually get applied until *after* the Queue (or what the proto-Stack was called back then) was completely empty. As such, regardless of whether Giant Growth was cast in response to Lightning Bolt or Lightning Bolt was cast in response to Giant Growth, the buff from Giant Growth would always be applied first.

Bro, if Idyllic Grange is the WORST example from that Eldraine land cycle, that's pretty wild...because it is by no means an underpowered card haha

Shivan Gorge has always seemed to me to be either a last minute substitute for a busted version or the best of a raft of even worse ideas for the red land of the cycle. I'm still a bit surprised it doesn't deal 2 damage; but, R&D seemed very cautious with damage dealing lands, in general.

Oath of Ghouls is fun in a deck with Braids, Cabal Minion; Rotlung Reanimator, graveyard removal, and cheap creatures with death or enters-triggers! :D

Contagion, part of the Alliances pitch spell cycle that included Force of Will, was a main deck 4-of in the winning Worlds Deck of ‘97. Bounty of the Hunt, Pyrokinesis and Force of Will featured in other decks in the top 4. Overall it was a good cycle, but Scars of the Veteran was awful.

i actually use clarion ultimatium in my jodah commander deck because my mana base is almost entirely basics. it can be used to ramp 5 basic lands for 5 mana which is a really good rate

Deflecting swat is actually the best spell in the commander free spell cycle by a lot. Not only is the effect crazy and even better than a normal counterspell in some cases, it is also in red, a color that very rarely gets interaction as potent as that.

I use clarion ultimatum in commander to fetch my basics 😂 usually gets two or three. I run the full ultimatum cycle in Jodah. It's basically a fancy rangers path most times when you cast it for wubrg

Minor Correction: Oath of Ghouls triggers if _YOU_ have more creatures than target opponent in your grave. Not the other way around.

I had a casual Ultimatums deck which cast them off Windbrisk Heights. Clarion Ultimatum was actually a decent hit, because it could get another Windbrisk Heights with another ultimatum tucked under it.

The sad thing about cycles is that only a few have a cycling ability.

One interesting cycle that wasn't included (possibly because it isn't obviously intended to be a cycle). The legendary land mega cycle. Starting in Mirage they printed a cycle of legendary lands, one per block ( a set of 3 sets released in a year for newer players) up to Invasion. The best would probably be Volrath's Stronghold, but there are a few others that have seen occasional play. However, the worst is definitely Teferi's Isle, which can tap for UU, but unfortunately it comes into play tapped, and it has Phasing which means that if at the start of your turn it is phased in, it will phase out at the start of your turn. This means that if you play it on turn one the first time you can tap it for mana is turn 3, and then it goes away again on turn 4 (and 6 and so on). The others are Yavimaya Hollow, Keldon Necropolis, and Kor Haven. I think Yavimaya Hollow is probably the next best.

This was sharp. Cut clean, King

The only reason I know that Force of Will is part of a cycle is after recently seeing the Cardmarket video on Magic in 1997 where Frank Karsten plays the green version and Thoralf, along with approx. every single viewer, stopped the game to read wtf that card was. Power 9 vs Healing salve was always gonna be #1. I hadn't seen the full karakas cycle... I'm baffled at how the blue one needs a timing restriction nerf... Was it really too much to just not print that text? Was there a flash sale on black ink that day and they had to fill the text box with text to make it worse?? Also, the Cradle cycle... It's so weird that they got 3/5th through the cycle with "gain a mana for each X" and then ran out... They couldn't give red artifacts and move blue to cards in hand... They couldn't just give red goblins... Or give red the number of cards in opponents' hands... Considering how broken blue is, they can't have thought about balance that much, so how can I think of three better AND more thematic alternatives in under a minute? At least the Alpha-3 cycle is a complete cycle and (at the time) in colour-pie. What kind of cycle is "mana for each X" "mana for each Y" "mana for each Z" "2 mana is you sac a thing" "deal a damage"?!

What would a "fixed" white and blue card in the Alpha cycle even look like if you tried to stick with the strict pattern of 3's? Would just Scry 3 instead of draw 3 be too weak? Because that seems pretty fair, but sneakily strong for one mana mostly because it's an instant. Or a decent white card might be to put target creature (or maybe just nonland permanent) on top of it's owner's library third from the top. Obviously not super busted or a permanent solution to anything, it could be a decent answer if the game isn't going longer than three more turns.

I agree with you on the fogs being underrated, but i also think a big part of it is commander is a multiplayer format. Fogs shine in 1v1, but their power is downgraded a bit if it becomes 3v1 since fogs only last the turn. Meanwhile phasing out becomes a little stronger in commander

To be fair, when Legends came out, Legends were mostly overcosted with downsides that were brand new in this set, and R&D had no plans to make more. Banding was a mechanic that saw some play and R&D probably thought would stick around for a while.

I'm suprised neurok stealthsuit isn't used more frequently in commander, i rarely saw it, instant speed shroud is pretty good. As for healer's headress... i guess stick it on a white/colourless card that has an uptap effect?

Shivan Gorge was actually really good at the time of printing. Mono Red had issues with closing the game after getting their opponents down to low life initially. COP style effects really hosed them, and people main decked disenchant etc to blow up artifacts. Having a 1 ping colourless damage source meant they could finish, and it was safe from most sideboard interaction. Tolarian Academy was OP because it shared colours with an X cost wincon (stroke of genius) so you didn't manaburn yourself out of the game in the process of attempting to go off. Enchantress had a vulnerability that if you tried to vent white mana by repeatedly returning flickering ward, OP could remove the target and leave you facing large burn as most of your spells required green.

circle of loyalty is actually really good in Jodah Legends. You get a token with each cascade cast and it's legendary so it triggers Jodah as well. Not too good in much else.

I actually own an Alpha healing salve. Bought a blind box off a dude I worked with and it was in the pile. I was very amused by it and still have it to this day.

You did my boy idyllic grange dirty. The land was an importsnt piece in heliod ballista decks in modern and pioneer

Pact of the titian was used in some decks as the white pact never saw play

I'm a big fan of bringing up Prophecy, featuring both the Avatar and Wind cycles. The black ones of each cycle are playable and the other colors quickly fall off a cliff in useability.

I love that Karakas is the best land of the Legends cycle and has been for a while, whereas for the longest time it was Pendelhaven lmao. Talk about future card design (and game modes) making a change haha.

I was not expecting you to look like Wayne Static.

I couldnt even make the Circle of Loyalty work in a Legendary Knight EDH deck and thats propably the best place it could go in. Compare that to the generic value and power Henge and Embercleave provide you see the difference quite clear

I found a use for Phantatog alongside Nomad Mythmaker and enchantments with etb abilities. If you want to put enchantments in the graveyard it does it real good

Imagine the world where shivan gorge added red mana equal to the damage dealt that turn.

How much circle of loyalty has hurt Seth’s soul. 😂😂

Clarion ultimatum ramp am I missing the nonland part or something

Banding is not all hard to understand, actually. I have made two pretty fun banding commander decks - one of them even with the five lands that gives legendary creatures (of each colour) banding with others.

The Alpha Instants cycle is definitely a good example. Dark Ritual and Lightning Bolt are staples to this day, Ancestral Recall is a member of the Power Nine, Giant Growth has its niche, nobody plays Healing Salve.

I expected the Odyssey-Dog-Cycle to be here: (all are 2 Mana 2/2s) Best: Green - Wild Mongrel - Discard a card to give it +1/+1 and change it's color till end of turn (remember that at that time, most black removals did not work against black creatures) - significant upside! Medium: White - Patrol Hound - Discard a card to give it first strike till end of turn (yupp, this is still not the worst...) Worst: All the other Doggos. Red, Black and Blue come with significant downsides instead of activated abilities. Black (Filthy Cur): When it is dealt damage, you loose that much life. Red (Mad Dog): If it didn't attack or enter the game this turn, has to be sacrificed in the end step. Blue (Phantom Whelp): If it blocked or was blocked, it's returned to hand at end of combat. Wild Mongrel was played a lot in standard. I have never seen anyone play any of the other 4...

Doesn't Force of Rage exile on your end step? Meaning they can attack when cast on your opponents turn. Even if it wasn't, you could cast them end step. I guess you probably mean immediately

The typo with tolarian academy and shivan gorge 😂

Clarion Ultimatum DOES work in commander though, but only if you are playing a ton of basics. Note that it doesn't say nonland permanents, meaning you can use it to put 5 basics into play tapped. It's not a busted card by any means, but if you're on a budget, it can definitely do some work and put you far ahead of other players, especially in the mid game after you've already been out-ramping everyone.

All of the alliances pitch cards saw serious competitive play other than scars. Bounty saw play in senior stompy, contagion was a powerful removal spell in a format full of x/1s, and pyrokinesis was good enough for a World Championship Top 8 deck.

It's funny when things are other way around, like in case of Commander Legends will cycles, Red and White being best ones.

Hey, never heard of this Crocas card but seems to be nearly identical to Karakas

Idyllic grange has actually seen a little bit of play in pauper mono w

SETH Is Clarion Ultimatum 7 mana, 5 landfall triggers not enough for you??

I think a really unbalanced cycle that went unmentioned was the basic lands. Island actually lets you cast all of these insane blue cards.

On Contagion: I guess in the world of Fury, it's kind of unnecessary, but it used to be a Legacy sideboard card and was played quite a bit back in the 90s.

Dwarven mine in the thrones cycle is arguably the best with modern creativity

Clarion ultimatum can be used in commander... To ramp out basics a 7 mana but still. Probably would've been better if the permanents entered untapped

I'm pretty sure there's an error at 17:58 and it has Seth saying that Tolarian Academy is the best and Shivan Gorge is the worst

I would argue that the Cauldron of Eternity is even worse than the Circle of Loyalty, because the Circle - at least - is quite decent in Knight Tribal decks, the Cauldron actively stymies its activated effect with its Circle of Sun and Moon-esque replacement effect.

I wonder if Tolarian Academy being that powerful was a way of making up for Tolaria getting screwed over in the earlier cycle.

Let's make a commander clash but only with worst cicles

ive had mild success with oath of mages, against someone popping off its pinging them for 3 a turn at best which adds up after a while. Definitely it is the worst of the cycle, but overall the cycle is pretty good all around. Ive gotten use out of all of them. oath of lieges to help players falling behind to stay on par with everyone else so theres no dead weight on the table, oath of scholars for lots of draw, very good in my Oskar deck, oath of ghouls is also pretty good for getting back good value creatures in a self mill deck.

Could imagine if Gabe's Babe Ruth moment was just him cheating 😂. Clarification: I don't think thats true nor would I want it to be.

I saw all alliances free spells except for white in cedh. I use both force abs contagion in my yuriko

I don't care that Circle of Loyalty is bad. I absolutely loved it when I was playing it in my Mardu knights list when it was standard legal