goes to show 1 how far missy has grown and 2 how much he can’t stand the thought of helping the Dr

Also he LITERALLY killed himself by refusing to regenerate, just to spite the Doctor. He died! Twice!

Also something of note: the Spy Master isn't the only incarnation of The Master to have wanted to steal the lives of The Doctor, the Bruce Master tried that, too. This just means that the writers are so lazy, that they keep writing the same plots all the time because after sixty years, you tend to lose creativity.

@@DoctorWhoKage I agree, I did draw a lot of the parallels between PotD and the 1996 movie. And now you've mentioned it, it basically feels like a shitty copy. I can understand the Bruce Master wanting it because he was near the end of his regeneration cycle. But the Spy Master seems to already have a new cycle?

@@EleventhDarkness well, since they gave him his "I'm a fucking psycho" personality back, I guess it also makes sense for the Spy Master to do it as well because trying to figure out the logic behind a madman's actions is like trying to figure out how to make a cat bark. It just isn't possible.

Thinking about it, it’s like the Day of the Doctor, while Missy didn’t remember the events cus it was a time where past and future intersected it was always running in the background, processing maybe a small reason why Missy actually changed by the end.

I think the Simm Master was moved a little but not enough despite himself, but some of that feeling carried over when he became Missy and why she was more willing to work with him

@@JavertRA That's a great point actually. Yeah that is one of my favourite Doctor Who scenes of all time. Capaldi and Michelle Gomez knock it out the park in that serial. I just wish John Simms Master wasn't so awkwardly shoved into the story. But yeah god damn Capaldi will always be my favourite Doctor.

Not to sound like a cleverdick, but technically, he did. But it was when the Master was in the body of Councilman Tremas, but that was in a comic book, I think.

I know he didn’t meet him but he did mention him in A Town Called Mercy

@@nicktroisi6347 hopefully big finish will jump in the chance

Always a chance Matt Smith makes a special appearance one day and crosses the Master with the Doctor at the time.

It’s true that would have been awesome, although I dare say it might have been good to put the Master out of our minds long enough to make the Missy reveal even more special

O is retroactively implied to the incarnation of the Master succeeding the Lumiat, a female incarnation of the Master whom Missy regenerated into using an Elysian field.O continues the Revived Series theme of the Master being unstable in some way. In this case, O has a very volatile temper and can explode at any moment his plans dont work. Unlike Saxon's jovial madness (later flawed resurrection) and Missy's goofy homicides, this is actually scarier as its less predictable

Necroposting and expanding on what the other reply was saying, the Spy Master or ‘O’ is very, very heavily implied (if not outright confirmed) to come after a regeneration called the Lumiat. Missy uses an Elysian Field, forbidden Time Lord tech, to cheat death and grant herself a new cycle of regenerations. She concentrates all that want to be better and character development into her new regeneration and takes her new name as a result, going back on her own timeline to foil Missy’s earth schemes and steer her towards being better. She, unfortunately, is killed for her efforts by Missy and forced to start regenerating. It’s implied the unstable nature of the Elysian Field combined with the traumatic nature of the regeneration is what led to the unhinged nature of the Spy Master, the Timeless Child reveal just being the straw that broke the camel’s back.

@@pownedmanstuff Fascinating; I always saw it as Missy regenerates into the Spy Master, discovers the whole mess with the Tmeless Child (I still think the twist should have been that the Timeless Child was the Master, not the Doctor), and is so filled with rage about the whole conspiracy of the Time Lords that it causes a psychological break.

@@pokinfunatcartman That’s pretty much it with the extra step of the Lumiat thrown in there between them

​@@pownedmanstuffThere's so many problems with such a major moment in the character's development being "implied". Plus in either case it still just undoes all the growth and development the Master had as Missy.

Could be that Sacha is between Simm and Gomez

Yeah agreed. The Master was finally. taking a step forward in his character development then Chibs was like nope lol.

@@mrcritical6751 It's confirmed that Sacha is after Gomez.

@@CometStar100 The Master was always the bad guy. For almost 60 years of the show. It's nonsense, making him good when he is an iconic Doctor Who villain.

@@BaronMartin Well she was still a bad guy but she was not a full blown psycho anymore that wanted everything to die which is what the Master reverted back to without explanation. Also the character is getting tiresome now. There are other villains they could bring back instead of just using the Master.

They're honestly the only consistently good character across every series

That’s when Dr Who died

@@mrangryeyes4789 damn what a loser

Yep!!

What if the Master makes a surprise appearance in the next special, though not for a cliffhanger set up to the Centenary, and we get a sword fight between Sacha Dhawan and Jodie Whittaker? It’ll be perfect. The Doctor and Master have a sword fight in a Sea Devil story, then we get a (third) Sea Devil story fifty years later which marks their grand return. It’ll be interesting if not only do the SD return but also the Doctor/Master sword fight.

I can't agree more. Delgado was an amazing actor who defined the master in the same way Pertwee and Baker defined the doctor

Anthony Ainsley and John Simm say otherwise.

Pure unadulterated ham. Two old grandads prancing about. An utter cringefest. 😂😂😂

Totally agree. That said, one correction: *Big Finish audio dramas. The term "audiobook" makes it seem like they are books in audio form, with a narrator reading them. And for the most part, Big Finish doesn't produce those, but rather dramas in audio form, usually full-cast. Master stories especially are almost exclusively full-cast audio dramas (i.e. an episode without the visuals).

Mate I couldn't agree more. Some of the War Master audio dramas are the most twisted, terrifying Doctor Who stories ever created. Especially Master of Callous, that story wouldn't be allowed to be shown in the TV show coz it's so dark. I also believe Derek Jacobi is the best version of The Master, purely from his work in those audio dramas. The Master deserves dark stories. It also shows his more hypnotic, psychological torment. Great suggestion mate

@@edwinsoto6932 The way I usually explain it is simply: Audiobooks are one person (possibly more, but very rare) just reading a story. Audio *dramas* are like a full TV show/movie, just without the visual aspects.

@@edwinsoto6932 my bad. They are dramas, not books.

He's not one of the best The Master Is THE best

Ah now I have mixed feelings for that finale. I mostly absolutely adore it and think its one of the most underrated Doctor Who serials of all time. World Enough and Time is such a brilliant idea and concept. However I also feel John Simms Master was a bit awkwardly shoved into the story. He doesn't really do much and within 2 minutes of being on screen his plan is completely destroyed. A sharp contrast to S3 finale which I also adored. That finale was great at showing how terrifying and powerful The Master can be. It also does a great job of showing the relationship between him and the Doctor. With that phone call between them, the Master admits how scared he was during the time war, admitting that he ran away. The Doctor also confesses to destroying the Time Lords. They are brutally honest with each other. However this new incarnation of the Master is just evil and thats that. There isn't a single mention of Missy's development in S10, no explanation of how she survived. It's just too big a change. Which is a shame, coz otherwise I think he's absolutely great at playing the Master.

@@PhyzikTalks oh yeah.

@@jillboler4500 I just rewatched the season 10 finale and oh my god I forgot how good it is. Like bloody hell it's brilliant. Peter Capaldi is my favourite Doctor and he is so good. His speech with Missy and the Master gives me shivers. I also love how they use Bill's theme tune, but they make it distorted and broken because Bill is turned into a cyberman. It's a really tragic story, goes into places Doctor Who doesn't often go.

I'll go as far as saying it's the best Cyberman story out of all of them. Strangely, the next best interpretation of the Cybermen comes with The Lone Cyberman in Season 12. No matter what your opinion of Chibnall is, he was fantastic at showing how ruthless and unstoppable the cybermen are.

@@PhyzikTalks yes but don’t forget John Simms did a good job as the master as well, so to me John, missy, Peter and the cybermen are all brilliant in series 10.

Roger Delgado.

I honestly love all of them but I think my favourite has to be John Simm. The scene in "The Last of the Time Lords" where the Doctor is holding the Master in his arms, crying as he refuses to regenerate basically just out of spite, sticks with me even like 16 years later. It portrayed the Master well whilst also making me cry over losing such a character wholly due to the fact that (at the time at least) it left the Doctor alone as the last Time Lord in the universe.

Wrong. The Simm Master is the best. Sacha's was so cold and calculated,but John Simm's version played it better than the others by a mile

Yep, I just wish Missy was chronologically after Dhawan. It'd make everything more heartbreaking and Missy's actions just that much more sad.

@@The-Doctor6969 this is why I keep it in my headcanon that O comes between Saxon and Missy - it works so much better

In terms of that point, I most definitely feel an affinity with him

Agreed

@@jamesmayle3787 i only believe in our lord and savior The Master

Sacha is honestly a terrible Master. He just yells a lot and is a cheap cross between John Simm's Master and a knockoff Heath Ledger Joker impression. I honestly, and I'm not trying to sound rude or derisive, just genuinely don't understand how anyone could actually enjoy it. Most especially after such a perfect sendoff for the character with Missy. Even Simm's Master, with his craziness, had quiet moments where you saw the character underneath. Sacha's is just a caricature; a typical crazy psychopath villain. The Master was always Machiavellian, more Moriarty than Joker, even with Simm.

@@Patriarch.Chadimus yess yess whatever. I didnt ask you wrong opinion, make your own comment

@@jessbelen Cope and seethe, he sucks

@@Patriarch.Chadimus Cope and seethe? There is nothing someone I don't know can say that can change my mind, im not interested in discussing anything with you. Fight with yourself.

I agree with you completely his Master was the best until Missy came along

IMDB TV and Pluto TV have 24/7 Classic Doctor who channels

@@tazshking666 I love missy!

I have a lot of love for Ainley's Master.

Fully agree!

I agree that Michelle Gomez was absolutely perfect at playing the Master, but I do have issues. Her dialogue was far too focused on jokes and comedy. The Master should be frightening through dialogue alone. It's a shame because when Missy is saying simple stuff, like explaining her plan to use a Matrix data slice to create undead cybermen, she is brilliant! However in contrast, a scene like the one where she's threatening to kill Osgood, it's just tooo jokey jokey. Moffat said that scene was just to show how evil Missy is, killing off such a beloved character, but you don't need that to show how evil she is. I absolutely loved her arc in season 10, because she's more serious. Great to OTT at such speed: 'You know when you slop out, you're rotting' - fantastic 'It's our secret girl plan' - Too over the top.

Yeah I liked them both too and I liked Derek Jacobi as well even though we only saw him for only episode. He's so great in Big Finish as well.

@@jamesmayle3787 Hey look who got released from the asylum. Even Jesus thinks you're a d*ck.

I feel that the doctor and the master are directly respective of how expressive they are. The master is slow, and methodical in Classic Who, along with many of the doctors. When 10 of NuWho comes around, he's a lot more emotional, and expressive, so was Simm's interpretation, and Missy, And Spymaster. Just more expressive and cartoonishly evil

Scary Poppins

Yeah me too. Especially, I would have liked to see the Eleventh Doctor against this version of the Master.

Mine too John simm was great 😊

Because he is so annoying.

@@mayotango1317 why ?

@@tristanribeiro7903 He is just like the Lex Luthor Jr in Batman v Superman.

It's one of my favourite lines from classic who haha, the third doctor is brill

Given how batshit crazy "O" could get I wouldn't put it past him to have cooked(or coked) up the entire replace Rasputin thing just for the dance.

I agree!

@@jtfbreedlovegot that one right

Jhon Sim’s master could be manic at points but he was still intelligent but Sacha Dawaan’s master is just a bumbling fool that dumps out exposition with none of the intelligence of previous masters Sacha is just over the top

@@GoatManWithAplan Sachas master actually feels like the master tho. And sorry but Simm could not pull the crazy part of the master off. It felt way to force to me.

@@joey_filmz I’m revoking your whovian membership

@@GoatManWithAplan You lack the authority. (One could also argue that your own membership isn't exactly secure, especially after defending the Simm Master - if we want to go around revoking them...)

Some people believe she came after O so that her character arc could remain intact

@@BigT.Larrity its confirmed she's not though: apparently she somehow regenerated into an incarnation called the luminat, who then regenerated into O. I wish that wasn't the case, but it is.

@@BigT.Larrity I genuinely wish that was the case. The Master meeting the Doctor chronologically never made sense to me, and it'd match his character arc. Hell, even his "I don't want to be me" spiel in the Power of the Doctor could perfectly lead into Missy's arc. so many things are retconned in the show so I hope this is made canon. I'd be a happy Doctor :)

@@bacontheshoe to be fair, unless this is a second hand account, it could be a lie. missy also told simms she isn't sure what happened between her and him.

@@bacontheshoe Where was this confirmed?

A loucura desse mestre é a maior entre todos eles.

There’s hope for you millennials yet realising old school is always better than new school.

No. Not all of Chibnall or Jodie’s era was bad. Some of it was alright.

I definitely like the idea but i feel like it shouldn’t be the doctor

Seriously they could've done why better than frozen2 this thing

The Master could be lying though.

He’s burnt to death but I’m sure he’s living his best life!

trailer for what specifically?

@@sadmanadib8536 The new special coming out in time for the BBC's 100th.

Big Finish should do a story where that scenario happens.

@@JamesFrench96 Big Finish presents: "Spy Master: The Most Infuriating 77 Years". With the Dhawan Master taking care not to meet his predecessors, particularly Beevers (trapped there for about a century as well, if "Mastermind" can be believed) and Delgado (playing games with the Doctor throughout the latter's exile/stay). And of course he inevitably meets at least one other Master.

Just like how every single Doctor has been at least once in November 1963 Lmao

Yeah I’ve always thought the war chief was the master before Delgado incarnation

What was his iconic moment?

@@Valdaur "I always dress for the occasion "

Eric Roberts Master is much better in Big Finish anyway.

​@@Valdaur"My name's not Honey." "You want me to kill you?" The whole scene in the hospital where the front desk lady thinks he's Bruce. "I need the Doctor's body." "I always dress for the occasion." Him screaming "I'm alive!" At the end, tying into the Frankenstein parallels from before.

i lived thag episode too!

AUGH

As much as I love the prior masters before him, I gotta admit your right, he really did fit into that role really well.

Are you completely delusional? Sacha Dawaan’s Master is just cackling bumbling fool that dumps out exposition with none of the intelligence of previous masters!

It's a shame his master ruins the ending of missy's story arc

John simm was my fav

@@GoatManWithAplan “with none of the intelligence” homie literally hid as an average dude in front of the doctor without her catching on lol. And then proceeded to find Gallifrey and merge cybermen with time lords. Sounds smart to me

No one actually knows how many times The Doctor has regenerated before the Fugitive Doctor, but because he doesn't consider himself "The Doctor" until Hartnell, the 15th Doctor really is the 15th Doctor but the unknown number of regenerations. But even then after 11 regenerates into 12 he claims that he is over 2,000 years old. That's why most people hate the Timeless Child. Not because it's too complicated, but because having The Doctor be it contradicts it's own story in so many ways it becomes ridiculous.

He is. Remember what Time said to Thirteen? “You don’t know the weight of the forces amassing against you … and their master.”

@@SirJohnFalstaff2012 Time never said that?

And I expected the Roberts Master.

Praying for this to be true 🙏

That is absolutely spot on. A version like Missy, whilst Michelle Gomez was perfect, had issues with the writing. She was bordering on a comic relief character, because every line of dialogue had a joke or silly comment in it. Since when is that what The Master is all about? My favourite version is Derek Jacobi in the Big Finish audio dramas. In those, he is a master manipulator, hypnotic and thinking 10 steps ahead of everyone. He's written like a genuine sociopath, charming and kind to emotionally manipulate those around him. If you haven't checked them out, I recommend The War Master - The Master of Callous. That story would never be allowed in the show coz its so dark. It shows how the master psychologically torments people to get what he wants. RTD's Master played by John Simms shares some of these issues but it's clear his relationship with the Doctor is much more complex, he's not just evil and trying to kill the doctor, he's actually brutally honest when talking to him, admitting his fears etc.

Very well put

I definitely wouldn't say poor direction. This is very much just a case of preference

@@HerohammerStudios agreed. I find it humourous, personally, because I always saw ClassicMaster as more of an angsty teen and NuMaster as an older, less serious version who can make fun of themselves a bit.

We need more of Roger's charm and class in future Masters.