Thank you, this makes so much more sense.

You are absolutely correct in pointing this out. The actual text is so much more profound and true. It, I believe, allows for so much more dimension and possibility (alternatives) than what was originally quoted in the video. The actual text changes every aspect. Thank you.

True

And here we have another example of a weakling playing with semantics in order to create wiggle-room, so that he may feel mentally at ease with his weakness.

The translation makes the Athenians sound like a your typical sci-fi movie bad guys; the original version makes the Melians sound out of touch and naive.

Justin Ritchey Possibly the most matter of fact string of words ever uttered in all of human history.

That summarizes the whole thing. 2400 years later, nothing has changed.

@@pac1fic055 The thing is, that while Melians may have been "wrong" that day, they were "right" by the end of the war. Conflict started by power hungry Athenians turned into their mass grave.

@@OkurkaBinLadin Only because Athens had half of its population wiped out by RNG, and the spartans basically whored themselves out to The Persians in exchange for aid.

@@OkurkaBinLadin Only because they were crushed by their enemies, not because they were convinced by a moral rethoric. I'm sure the Melians, were glad to know they were right... asuming they were any of them left alive by the end, that is.

Ry P History repeats itself constantly.

+Ricardo Santos Thucydides' main reasons for why we opt for war is inherently fixed in human nature. Whether history is known or not. Historians have the luxury of hindsight to evaluate the errors of judgement and action. Politicians and Generals do not have that luxury. Plus this second quote makes the assumption that those who wage war are ignorant of history. Or that righteous military campaigns to defend against aggressors stay like that over time. Thucydides' warns that the longer a campaign takes, the more desperate and brutal all sides become.

Thousands

It’s a timeless truth relevant to all history

when was the last time a city was taken with all adult males slaughtered and all women and children sold into slavery? when was the last time a major power did this? idealism and morality has had an affect on us.

Probably last week in some country the media deems not worth reporting on.

Arthur O'Brien i meant major world powers. take the siege of fallujah. horrible shit but everyone in fallujah would have died or enslaved if the US behaved as the Athenians.

+AFGalwayz Rhata mostly because we have developed two concepts in the late 17 hundreds that helps protect against this shit. The idea of human rights, and the concept of personal responsibility.

Yes

you're damn right it is

I immediately thought of that!

how can you know it's him??

Rolf Hartmann me too.

Curiously so did I.

I came here because its one of the few videos on this channel I haven't watched (or rather listened to). if I'd have known about the Gowdy recommendation I would have listened to it sooner. I also highly suggest The Sword of Damocles.

Same mate lol but very interesting, its made he want to fight harder against the elites/cabal/illuminati/ NWO.

Rolf Hartmann me too lol

Senior Batman that’s definitely not the message

All crusades are just.

So how did the war turned out for Athens?

@@OkurkaBinLadin Badly, because they lacked the strength to face Sparta supported by Persia. They were weaker than their enemies in the end. In other words, their defeat, ironically enough, proved their point of view right.

is it really him??

+Ry P Took the words right out of my mouth. Perfect story too, I've got to do a paper in which some aspects of this dialogue would be perfect to mention, and why read it again when I can have good 'ol Sargon read it for me?

***** *sigh* Yes slavery is bad and has always been bad. What is more startling is the fact that the Athenians were considered an estimable Democratic society. This was the beginning of the end for Athens, in the coming years Athens will see a coup that leads to a very short lived Oligarchy, a return to Democracy and then their inevitable fall by the hands of Sparta. So Meldians (from the island of Melos) not wanting to be slaves....yea that was the whole point of the dialog...here let me break it down for you: Athenian: We are taking your land and rights and you are going to give us stuff in return Melians: Why do you want to do that? Athenians: Because we are bigger and stronger and better than you, Join us or die. Melains: We were doing fine before, what makes you think we will die? Athenians; Because we have an army that will force you to join us. Melians: But we are peaceful and are no threat to you. Athenians: We don't care, you have two options. Melians: If this is what you want then so be it, but no one is going to like that you did this. Athenians: We shall see. So, here is my point. Thanks for the history lesson, however I already knew the point of the dialog. Not only did I just listen to the whole thing a day ago, I also read it afterwards because I found it fascinating. On two levels I asertained the your mother line. The first one being that there is no way this is how this conversation transpired. Clearly the scholars decided to get creative with their editing, and 2.) Just once I wish the Melians would have responded back with a sharp zinger just to have history remember them as the island nation that died talking smack. More importantly, you took a joke, turned it into a history lesson about how slavery is bad, and decided to share it with the world...you've got to be a hoot at parties.

+Ricardo Santos this is nonsense. im pretty sure the common man killed and the common child and women enslaved wished these idiots negotiated to ally with athens. damning your people to death and slavery is the tyranny of idealism. people should realize when they are defeated and at that moment should seek to live another day and right the wrongs inflicted on them in the future.

+Ricardo Santos why would they be cowards?

@@AFGalwayz You bring in so much emotion and moral posturing without good reason. Melians may have been wrong at the time of congress demanding their capitulation, but they were right by the end of the war. War which united all of Athens neighbours against them. Sicily proved to be mass grave for democrats and their realpoitik. Incidentally, the end of sicilian expedition also mark end of Thucidides writing...

and iraq melos lol

Jim America has no equals today. So what does that mean for the rest of the world? “Suffer what they must.” ;)

Ah yes but Socrates stayed true to himself and was not about to let something as trivial as his death interfere with that. Personally I think he'd had enough of the world. Secondly, the Melian argument stood correct in the end as it did cause some islands to either rebel or join in on the side of the Spartans and indeed it hastened the Athenian demise. But everyone just focuses on the fancy talk by the Athenians. Finally. And this is something that is little appreciated today but to the Melians, death was preferable to dishonour.

To explain, Thucydides was not actually there. His transcript is simply what he imagined the conversation to go. In other words- You: I don't get this. Source? Thucydides: I made it the fuck up.

+Ricardo Santos This is a disingenuous portrayal of Plato's 'Republic' and him as a person. The text for the Republic is not meant as a directive for a political model. But a Socratic dialogue meant to be used as an argument for the political model, and a tool to argue against it. It acts as the first example of detailed political theory and criticism. Chances are Plato was an elitist as we would know one today. As many philosophers from the more recreational classes of Ancient Greece were prone to self indulgence and salesmanship (like youtubers). As for Ancient Greeks rejecting ideas that did not suit their views. Well, yes, they did all the time. As did many scientists from the enlightenment who went on witch-hunts to remove and condemn their political rivals. That is the nature of humanity. Also, we are now very convinced that Plato, as did most polytheists from his time and place, actually believed that gods could inhabit statues and animate to life. In fact they were so obsessed with the idea, they wrote about the benefits of automatons as being both an end to slavery and to serve a great sexual fetish. Point being, they were the dawn of the Western canon and prone to thinking strange things.

Thats the thing. Submitting allows them a measure of self determination, while resistance forces total control even on those who would have yielded.

MrDarkyosh Yes it is

The powerful are less powerful as they appear to the peasants and the politically illeterate. You do not keep power with kindness.

The point of this is that such thinking is flawed because everybody without power wishes that to be, but if they had power, their minds would do as the powerful have always done, as is human nature, the beauty of capitalism is that it takes advantage of this greed, allowing all to gain from it unlike socialism which puts people in power who say as you say, but then when they are given power they keep all the money that they are given to redistribute to the poor. The quote here that puts this best is: "Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a law of their nature wherever they can rule they will. This law was not made by us, and we are not the first who have acted upon it; we did but inherit it, and shall bequeath it to all time, and we know that you and all mankind, if you were as strong as we are, would do as we do."

Robert Rankin Yes

I know, right? After frames :26 I could barely stay focused on this 2400 Year Old Story. Thought it was gonna be another Lesbianic Chick Flick CW TV Show.

More like "reasonable", since they were motivated be need to show power to their foes and allies alike. This line of thinking did cost them war in the end, though. And they should be eternally grateful, that the victors treated them more humanely than they ever did Meloans...

@@OkurkaBinLadin It has been a good while.since I have studied the peloponesian war, but as far as I remember what cost the athenians the war wasnt small islands rebelling against their rule but sparta finding two braincells and building a navy, which they immediately scrapped, making them lose the second round rather decisively. As for the mililary situation, milos was in no position to argue. They were a minor power in a bipolar setting. They could chose which side to pledge alligence to or attempt neutrality. Theirnbid for neutrality didnt work, at this point they can xhose between subjugation or becomimg a puppet. There is not efhical right or wrong in international politics, and this has only ever been true. Trying to apply personal scale morality to politics only ever leads to your political entity being abused and conquered. Oh right. Also. I do not believe athens' loss in the first peloponeaian war was in any way an unconditional surrender. They merely lost the ability to project power via the erosion of their navy, forcing them to disband their system of alliances and cede the position of the prime power to sparta.

There is island called Lesbos, and thats where the name came from.

then stop speaking bulgarian and learn greek