As vague as it was, it was in fact Mike Farrell. He did not come out straight and say " the person Alan couldn't stand was..." But the answer is there.

@@WW-wf8tu Stop sticking up for the dickhead side.

Where?

Great one. His false baiting has insured that I will never view anything of his again.

I can't stand this guy either. MASH only lasted 3 years. Don't know why they called it MASH after that. Stevenson made that show.

I remember that, but then again I've seen some of the episodes close to 20 times. That was from Sometimes You Hear the Bullet when Hawkeye's friend Tommy died on the operating table. Hawkeye decided he wasn't going to let the underage soldier (played by Ron Howard) die in action trying to impress a girl. So he turned him in then got him a purple heart anyway.

Not according to interviews vith Alan Alda and other cast members

My favorite quote: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hLR9pMR92pfGeoU.html

That line is a classic!! So very true!

I remember that line and also one of my favourites. I used the line in a way to help a friend. She was a nurse in a cardiac ward for terminal cases. She mentioned somedays it was difficult to work because she knew that the patients didn't have long to live. I said to her that there were two rules in medicine. Rule one was that people die and rule two was that doctors and nurses can't change rule one. All she could do was help make their last days comforting and pleasant. That seemed to help her a lot.

i would guess that the unloved mystery person would have been the guy who replaced trapper

So who cares?

I didn't like the series after Radar left.

Wayne rodgers and alda were best friends. The co star he didnt like was gary burgough.

Actually Alda and Rodgers were tight. They stayed close right up till Wayne's early death. It was Mike Farrel that Alda never liked; but he didn't actually dislike him, just could never feel friendly toward him.

? It's a decent list of trivia

I have also noticed that it was "Swit talking to Morgan". She became her realself during that line.

The first half of the series was good, anyway.

it's horrible today. one one liner after another. Alda's character is horrible.

My favorite show of all times. Gallows humor in medicine is important to decompress.

Funny how opinons vary. MASH was never one of my favorites. The constant attempts at humor in the face of the harsh realities of the Korean War I found to be phony and off-putting after a while. Adding to that for me was the fact that the characters became very tiresome; Alan Alda with his constant cyncism about practically everything, and his eternally sarcastic mouth (and as I think someone else pointed out here, his insufferable constant self-righteousess.) If I wanted to get annoyed with someone's personality (actually, several charcters on MASH did that for me), I could get that at work. I didn't need to turn on the TV on my Saturday night to do it. Frank Burns is next. Need I even say more? Are explanations even necessary? And Houlihan with her constant abrasiveness, as though she was pissed at everyone all the time. Tell me that didn't get old. And yet, her and Frank were an item. Yeah, they probably deserved each other. Gag me with a pitchfork. And Klinger. Stop, already..........Just gimme a great big fat break, and stop, will you please? And then there's Radar, with his preposterous and totally NOT BELIEVABLE ability to know what everyone was going to say before they said it. Nope, sorry. Ain't buyin' it. It was the same old, same old, same old S**T, week in and week out, year in and year out. And then they graced us with Winchester mid-way through the series, who was himself a boorish thorn in the side, and more than a mild disappointment, IMAO. Thanks for bringing HIM along for the ride, when you had the perfect opportunity to actually bring a LIKEABLE character into the fold, instead; an opportunity which you squandered in flying colors. Personally, I got a lot more comic relief and entertainment value out of watching ALL IN THE FAMILY on Saturday nights back in the day. That brand of humor always made a lot more sense to me.

And judging by how poorly he pronounced some of the names, he clearly never watched the show.

It's computer generated not a real man.

I made it to 23 seconds. Then I spent 6 minutes reading the comments.

@@123xqp I didn't time it, but I'm sure you both beat me, it couldn't have been more than 2 or 3 seconds before I realized what kind of video it is.

@@jameslocke1416 Donald Penobscot(t)

Thank you for your service!

Yes, thank you for your service 🙏.

Welcome home!

I joined the Army in 1982. In my basic training unit, there were a remarkable number of men whose sole experience of the Army was old episodes of M*A*S*H, and they came in expecting the Army to be like that. Boy, were they in for a shock. It was funny to watch. Some of them shaped up, some of them couldn't handle it.

Me too! Baumholder, West Germany!

...and so???

I did not know that. Interesting.:)

Interesting.

i didn't know that. but it makes sense given how good Hogan's Heros was. i'm 59 years old. when i was 14, my family had a german exchange student for the summer. he and the other german kids loved watching hogan's heros.

@@eloiseockert9233 both shows were well written and acted, good comedy, etc. there were a lot of similarities.

well ... since it started in 1972 - you are correct. the 50th year was in 2022.

Me too! I remember watching the last episode. It was a HUGE and popular show and then I'd watch the reruns too. Wonder if it's streaming anywhere? I'd like to watch it allover again.

​@@vaskylark😅

My spouse and I enjoyed MASH so much, even the reruns out of order when it was in syndication. At one point, he even splurged and bought the boxed set which included the original movie. Honestly, the movie couldn’t hold a candle to the series.

@E Pena Thank you for sharing that! I agree, about the pilot movie. The humor was lackluster compared to the series. That being said, in defense of the movie, they had to keep the " jokularity" down. Thank you, Fathe Mulkahey. My favorite episode is when B.J. joined the cast, he and Hawkeye showed up to camp 3 sheets to the wind, and he said, ", what say you Ferret face?" To Burns!! I'm laughing just writing this.

Yeah, too full of himself. I liked the Blake and Trapper characters better.

I liked him at first but then the show too often followed a formula where Pierce was a childish a-hole who thought he was the only one who understood that war was bad and abused those around him because he hated it. Then with 5 minutes left in the show, the copters would fly in with lots of wounded and Pierce would be a hero surgeon and everyone thought he was wonderful. I didn't.

@@boyracer3477 Exactly!

No laugh track? Interesting and I would also like to watch the show in that manner.

@@veltonmeade1057 I have watched the "No laugh version", I couldn't stand it. Almost every scene with a joke in it wasn't even funny. I had to go back to the "canned laughter" version.

Hey thanks. I have wondered if the "no laugh version" was funny. Helps me to decide if I ever want to buy that version. @@tonyfulford3175

Loretta said you never rented her a car and that she never met you. She told me that years ago.

@@gutenbird If you really knew her, you'd know she always talks about "The shy guy in Toronto." I doubt you even know her man.

@@bzbzob I think she may have mentioned this weird guy who hung out by the water cooler.

😏

​

I too remember how my mother loved Mash. Certainly something she cherished. When the series ended it went into returns and she watched those until the end of her days

I was wondering which co-star he couldn't stand, also.

What a touching tribute to your mom.

Nice story.

Your Mother had a Heart of Gold ! For Loving you and your Sisters the way She did, and that absolutely breaks my heart about rarely getting help! God bless you and your Sisters and especially your Mother, may She Rest in Peace! ✝️🙏❤️❤️❤️ ALWAYS!

I was going yo ask the same thing😊

@@chenoamiller7177 sort of makes you feel deflated, like your waiting then nada

​@@chenoamiller7177 99⁹9999988888888888⁸the only problem I see see that zipper was 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅

The gun?

@@dthomas9230 lol could be, you never know

He said that people would come up to him and want to talk about psychiatry and he'd have no idea what they were talking about.

Good luck, Soldier. I never had luck with VA psych doctors, either. The best I got was from an intern from Johns-Hopkins in the early 2000s, when I lived in Vermont and from a social worker in the Durham, NC VA about five years later. Semper Fi

@@paulgianni thanks fellow Soldier / Marine. As long as the V.A. keeps paying my 100% service-connected disability, then I can do without one. Good luck back my friend. Semper Fi / Hooah.

My mom & I LOVED Dr. Sidney!

My favorite character was also Dr. Freedman.

Yup. Agreed.

Captain Perkins

yes!!

I'm the wind. It's my trademark. Lights out. No one sees me leave.

Yeah, they could have had him in more episodes working with Frank

David Ogden Stiers (Charles Emerson Winchester) was a guest narrator one year for Epcot’s Candlelight Processional, a large holiday production every year. He asked for a fairly substantial spread of food and beverages in his dressing room, which was honored. His first night, he told the crew members that he was amazed by their skill and work ethic, and that the spread was for them, his door remained open. He was a very kind, approachable man, and this was typical of how he treated everyone he interacted - and guess who was treated like royalty by everyone backstage? ❤

My favorite Potterisms were his angry… pastoral… exclamations. Especially “buffalo bagels!” and “horse hockey!” And “pony pucks!” 🦬💩 Also “sufferin’ sheep dip!” I guess there’s just too many. 😂

“I couldn’t hit the barn side of a broad.”

I loved mash but never found it funny. What you provided here is, however, funny.

Absolutely right.

As an Australian, I would love to see that. Only the later seasons had no laugh track for us.

@@Banana_Split_Cream_Buns The BBC showed it without the laugh track but on freeview channel 42 (called 'Great Action' ) they show it with the laugh track. For me the laugh track ruins it at the show was always intended as a dark comedy so telling you where the humor is, is quite an insult.

The whole DVD series allows you the option to view it without the laugh track. Honestly, I almost prefer it with the laugh track only because that's how I originally saw it, though it certainly wasn't necessary to have it.

@@magneto7930 The later seasons had no laugh track.

I have to mention Andy. He and Don Knotts were perfect together.

Yes!!! when Korman and Conway got together It was magic!! don't forget the dean Martin roasts with Don rickles, charlie callas, Red buttons🤣🤣🤣so funny!!! I still watch that on YT..

Don't forget The Dick Van Dyke show -- Jamie Farr actually appears on that as the danish and coffee delivery guy.

I sometimes watched the Carroll Bernadette Show but people keep telling me now it was jus a hallucination.

Also known as Carol Burnett.

The soundtrack to Mash is also etched in my mind for all times.

Have you ever watched Andy Griffith Show? His father and son moments will make you weep like an old lady if you have a soul.

@@sevinstorey4365 Ron Howard was such a great young actor. I love Leave it to Beaver but Ron Howard could act circles around those kids.

@@sevinstorey4365 Watched Andy Griffith all the time growing up. It was good, but M*A*S*H had poignant moments pretty much every episode.

Scrubs did a better job of making you laugh and cry

For the sake of his patients, I hope he didn't mean that!

Maybe he was joking with you.

Well, dedication.

This American comedy about Americans attacking an Asian country, reminds me of Hogans' Heroes, an American television comedy about a German World War Two prisoner of war camp. You probably wouldn't like that one because it was just in black and white.

@@johnwattdotca not all of them

@@johnwattdotca Interestingly, the US was over there due to fact that an Asian country attacked another Asian country who happened to be a friend of the US. Actions have consequences.

@@mkvv5687 Does this mean your brain is limited to generic cliches that misrepresent sadistic weapons use? I can see you already use brain-washed words when you say "another Asian country who happened to be a friend of the US." Somehow the thought of American soldiers and their weapons visiting an Asian country to be friends doesn't seem friendly. I can understand your perspective only if you don't know what soldiers do.

I heard the same thing

I will only comment, I heard more than once Larry Linville was well liked by Alan, Loretta Switt, and others. Many good likable actors play love to dislike characters. Edward Winters - Colonel Flagg.

@@johncook2748 Edward Winters appeared as Colonel Flagg in six episodes. I wish they had utilized the character more often. He was hilarious.

Ive cooked and met everyone frmo sinatra to michael jackson , don rickles etc I could go on and on, and i found , how they portraid on screen, they were almost just the opposite in real life.

@@michaelf6705 You've cooked for these famous people? You must be a gourmet chef.

May he rest in peace. Yeah, I loved his character. He was a good hearted foil for the lead characters. Though he was sorta a enemy because of his upbringing, he wasn't a complete A hole

I met David Ogden Stiers through his support of a local choir in Newport, OR. He was warm and kind and seemed genuinely caring. I’ll never forget the meeting.

@@hiramlewis3873 Winchester was kind of a loveable a-hole.

Yes, he was a major improvement over the cartoon character the writers turned Frank Burns into. Stiers (and the writers) gave Winchester quite a bit of complexity. Two things for which I cannot forgive the writers: Frank Burns and Radar's teddy bear.

This video never even paid respect to Charles Emerson Winchester III or David Ogden Steirs for that matter. Seems a lot of good people were skipped right over. I don't think other than competition there were bad blood or true dislikes between the cast. I do recall the actor for Blake going on several talk shows about leaving the series early and saying it was his choice and needed to get untied from a long series to move on and as he put it up. The up never happened and he was SOOO GOOD at his role it was sad he choose poorly as one scene in one of Indiana Jones movies puts it....he chose poorly verses of course choosing wisely. I think THEY number one ignored character that was fantastic comedy acting was Frank Burns. It took not only a great actor but one with a great humility to play that role with the straight face he managed. And he so deserved more than for some reason he was recognized for. And yes NO LAUGH TRACK PLEASE. They are horrible things. Too bad there are not MUTE Laughter track buttons.

The show hasn't stood the test of time well at all. The politically preachy shows seem pretty cringeworthy now.

@@arthurc1805 I thought us politically correct people ran everything now, You conservative snowflakes really need to keep your story straight.

I am Southern Belle too. I, too laughed so hard. Jamie Farr did a good job!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where were the interviews?

GREAT comment~ Thanks!

No. It was Rizzo that was messing with Charles with grenade. He pulled pin and expected Charles to run. But Charles jumped on it and told Rizzo to run. He knew beforehand it was fake.

@@meagain2898 Doubtful Winchester would have dived on the grenade if he knew it was real, but he actually did know ahead of time that it was fake. LOL

David Ogden Stiers was an a artist in residence at my university. He starred in a production of King Lear. His was the best Lear I've ever seen and he was only 22!

I knew it was Farrel, because he was blessed with the sobriquet, 'F**k you Mike' for his not-so-palsey habit of saying JUST that...quite often.

You actually never watched the movie, did you? "Gritty soldier" come on now.

Ego? He was the main character by the end

@@nowirehangers2815 Alan Alda wrote checks his 'acting' couldn't cash.

You are so right. Apparently the original plan was to let Stevenson back if his show failed but Alda didn’t think he should because of a lack of commitment. So Gelbart killed him🤮. Such an egotistical ass. Hornberger liked the movie but not the show I think mainly because of Alda. Although Hornberger didn’t like the liberal stuff on the show and I did. It’s very unpatriotic to not be a liberal. But I think the show also got too far away from the novel.

Radar was funnier in the film and early part of the series when he would help with the pranks.

I remember the adds for the movie. I was 15 then

On the DVD commentary track of his original film, Robert Altman explains why he rightfully DESPISED the TV version of his work saying it ripped his cinematic vision to shreds, flatly refusing when M*A*S*H Producers asked to use some of his footage onscreen. But contractually, Altman always retained some measure of control over his movies and M*A*S*H was no exception. So as a minor capitulation the only shots you ever see from Altman's movie are under the opening credits showing a helicopter sweeping in and landing on a hill with a wounded soldier, which was blended with new closeup footage of the TV actors. And, you can easily see the difference since Altman only allowed them to use old, scratched footage instead of anything that would match more closely. Another thing missing from the TV show are the sung lyrics to the theme song, "SUICIDE IS PAINLESS" which were deemed inappropriate by network censors for TV-viewers since suicide among the military was and still largely is a taboo topic. But overall, Robert Altman especially disliked Alan Alda's portrayal of "Hawkeye Pierce", thinking he turned the character into an annoying immature parody of the original. And, he was correct.

@@gregoryboyd7176 Good thing, then, that Robert Alda's son Alan played Hawkeye in the TV series. 😬 Sorry, I couldn't resist the cheap shot.

@@brianlupiani587 What are you talking about? Robert ALTMAN was a renowned film/television director long before Robert ALDA ever memorized a word of dialogue. BUT: ROBERT Alda [Alan's Father] did actually guest star on an episode of M*A*S*H. Next time try actually reading before replying.

@@brianlupiani587 Are you confusing Altman with Alda?

He belongs there.

@@Mapatcom jackass.

I'll never forget the line. It was a baby.........

If u have dish they r on it..

If your cable company has it, MASH plays on TVLand each weekday morning from 7a-10:30a

No. But thanks for letting us know.

And "Sophie" was not a mare...it was a stallion or a gelding. 😂🙃

Kudos. One of my favorite trivia questions.

You could have let us remember the answer first.

In Sopie's first appearance 'she' was a 'he' - a gift from Radar. In the final episode, Potter climbs aboard to leave, and while cantering away, it's obvious Sophie is no mare 😂

Edward Winter made the character so popular they didn't ask him back. Big mistake. A "Tales of Col. Samuel Flagg" spin off would have been something to see ("you didn't see me!").

Ron Fry: I loved Col Flagg, too. But Mike Farrell was definitely one of my favourites, along with Colonel Potter (probably THE favourite), and Klinger. It's tough to pick just one from this incredibly excellent cast!

Totally agree!!!

Farrel kind of ruined the show for me. Wayne Rogers was by far the superior costar. Farrel played the Hawkeye kiss up. Rogers was more of an equal who challenged Alda.

@@corriecrazy Farrell? Please. He was such a let down from Wayne Rogers.

Mine too!

Love him, too, but my favorite parody character was Colonel Flagg!

Yes!

Trying to find the bit where he interviewed a deluded soldier who thought he was Jesus. Col. Potter demanded a diagnosis. "He's Jesus," said Sydney. "If you look closely you'll see that I'm not laughing," said Potter.

The think about New York is a myth. It was just a joke.

Well, this does not surprise me. I have worked with the Army and in engineering since 1996 and I have worked with many guys like him; short guys always have a big chip on their shoulders. I think this is because they got teased a lot as kids and with his deformed left-hand, I imagine he got teased a lot for it while growing. I have learned how to work with guys like him which to focus on the job, not the person.

It's a real human. I know the voice and the name but can't think of it at the moment. My ex is now retired from a lifetime career in hroadcasting. Before the days of Google, he would make phone calls til he found the correct pronunciation. Smart.

@@angelbulldog4934 I

Garry Burghoff could be annoying! Watch the end of Match Game 74 and the beginning of Match Game 75. He substituted about 100 +/- episodes. He always seemed to want to outdo everyone else on set. Just my opinion.

The narrators voice is very tedious.

Really...because of a TV show? You need to have a talk with her about influencers.

A dull and dreary life bring you here Bruce? Cheer up man!@@brucefredrickson9677

I never liked Hunnicutt (Mike Farell). I got sick of his schtick--"Peg this and Peg that" and they even did a show where he talked about the "potty training" of his kid. He was far too "sappy" a character unlike Trapper (Wayne Rogers). Rogers admitted years later that if he knew MASH would have gone on for 11 years he would have stuck around. Behind the scenes they forced Rogers to sign some kind of "morals" clause in his contract that upset him and he wouldn't sign it.

The Books by Hooker were good. I read as many as I could. I don't have them any more especially since I moved to Australia.

The lyrics to the theme, Suicide is Painless.were written by the director's 15 year old son - Mike Altman, son of Robert Altman. The father made $70,000 for directing the movie, the son has made over a million for co-writing the song.

@@sirlawrencetGlad to hear it. What a great piece of music.

in real life a self righteous quiche eater

I thought I was the only one, he reminded me of todays modern snowflakes.

of course im talking of his role , not him as a person for all the modern day snowflakes.

I thought he had the toughest role of all...he had to be consistent, and funny, and mesh with the other characters. (I had to do that as the lead in a Neil Simon play once, the third night was the best, and it was very difficult...I only did it right, or at least well, on the third night.

@@sanman187- Paverotti was amazing, just doesnt do anything for me, he may have played the role impeccably, but his role got irritating, not him as a person.

Maybe the guy who called him "Aaron Alda" was Korean.

does this include for duty in Viet Nam as well? Asking as a friend was wounded 3 times, 3rd time he was sent home only to die later from Agent Orange.

My immediate reaction when I heard about the TV series based on the movie was, "No way they can pull that off." Shows why I never worked in the entertainment industry.

Turns out McLean Stevenson was a cousin to Adlai Stevenson

MASH did not use a laugh track so there would not be

@@chenoamiller7177 They certainly did use a laugh track, except for the Operating Room scenes.

@@gregwilliams3120 I'm pretty sure they eventually stopped using the laugh track, though I have no idea when that was.

I have the whole dvd collection and thank God there is no laughing track. Also, growing up with the czech dubbing, makes me realize how well they translated most of the jokes 😂 considering the language/cultural barriers, the czech crew managed to keep the jockularity mostly intact ❤ including the voice actors who sounded almost 100% like the original characters

Most of us could.

I had a friend who said that his idea of hell would be to spend eternity in a room with Alan Alda. I agree now.

A guy in my squad had five of 'em

Actually, a few cast members have been pretty candid about how they resented Alan Alda's ego snatching up so much creative control of the series and this was the real reason why both McLean Stevenson and Wayne Rogers abruptly left the show. Once he became a producer on M*A*S*H it became nothing but a showcase for the "Hawkeye Pierce" character with every episode centered around Alda instead of the ensemble performances of both Altman's original film and the first few seasons of the TV show. In fact, one crewman at the time was heard to have said that M*A*S*H really stood for "More Alda Shi**y Histrionics."

It was Burgoff.

did u see him

Who cares.

AI.

@@montarakid1943 Easy to pick up on Al when it flubs a word.

Gary Burghoff. He was very difficult to work with. He was demanding and laborious. Not like Radar at all. Everyone has said it.

Because MASH wasn't about Korea it was absolutely about Vietnam but they couldn't say so. There are lots of similar anachronisms.

@@georgebreakfast5890pavement

Actually the baby got the Purple Heart because he was nicked in the butt by the bullet himself.

On one episode he quotes John Wayne from a 1963 movie. Eleven - twelve years too early.

The haircuts always bug me. Male and female characters all seem to have 1970s ‘big hair.’ Black characters have hair that is way too high, given that the show is set in an early 1950s military setting.

agreed

Sadly, I've always felt this way.

Amen! First three seasons were great.

I’d read the same thing.

Nah, Gary Burghoff

Donald Penobscott

@@peteperez7741 Are you some sort of Maineiac?😜

@@peteperez7741 Penobscot. I'm from Penobscot County Maine.

@@SingleTrackMined Is that near Crab Apple Cove?

Alan alda didn't like Gary burghoff because he said that Gary was constantly late to the set and that he whined and complained a lot. Ms. Harper Stacey.

Opposites politically, maybe.

Google it

I know what you mean. After McLean's departure and Farrell's appearance, the show got really preachy really quick due to Alda's added influence behind the scenes. Hawkeye also turned into a real wimp. The first three seasons were pure laughs. I still love watching them even though I've seen them a million times. But excellent writing never gets old ;)

Between the two of you, you managed to sum up my thoughts on the show. I was only 12 or 13 when the show ended. It was in syndication, and I was in my early 20s when I started kind of disliking most of it. I'd have to say that Radar and Trapper were my favorite characters, followed very closely by Blake and Potter. I liked Pierce when the show was in first run, but as a young adult I started recognizing the show as a vehicle for Alda to preach his own ideals. He had just entirely too much creative control on M*A*S*H, and for me, he was the catalyst that started the show in its early downward spiral. I wasn't really ever a fan of Burns, but at least in the beginning, he wasn't a sniveling little wimp, and he was at least a little funny. I wasn't a fan of Winchester either. Klinger was kinda funny, but it was a little much when he just decided to straighten up and fly right.

Reading your comment, it was like I had written it. I agree with 100% of what you said. The show in it's first three seasons was pure gold, then it all shifted. When I go back to re-watch episodes, I stop watching once the killed off Henry Blake.

@David Ahrens You and I are pretty close. I always prefered Trapper to BJ. I would have to say that, over all, Henry Blake was my favorite character. What is your opinion of the movie MASH? To me, the series kind of makes the movie fall into the shadows. That is a shame.

Henry Blake looking up into that heater pipe in Hawk's tent, & then... priceless ! " We're doctors; we're trained to ignore peoples' pain" Maj. Frank Burns, M.D.

That should be easy to look up.

@@Lava1964 you inspired me ... I found it ... season 8, episode 7 (episode 180 of all episodes) "Nurse Doctor" now I'll have to see if its on my subscriptions... thanks

Haha! I went into labor after watching a terrible Kurt Russel movie, The Poseidon Adventure!

@@1111atreides Kurt Russel wasn't in the Poseidon Adventure.

@@davidparker2761 He was in Poseidon. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hrKTf7h2qpjUqY0.html

There is no way the show could have gone as long as it did, if it stuck to the same formula of the first 3 seasons

He took Klinger out of women’s clothing which made that character pointless.

The show in my opinion should have ended years earlier.