The principle of least action

  Рет қаралды 168,075

PhysicsHelps

PhysicsHelps

11 жыл бұрын

Here's a qualitative introduction to another way of looking at physics.

Пікірлер: 123
@kevinwaterman5358
@kevinwaterman5358 9 жыл бұрын
Around 9:30 when the narrator begins listing the reasons why this is worth knowing, the reason that kept popping into my head was (while closely related to reasons 1 and 2) is that it shows that the Newtonian methodology is not necessary. I think finding a separate way of solving these equations shows that while they are both extraordinarily accurate, they are both inventions, and that other inventions that solve these problems might still yet be more useful and powerful, and maybe even simpler than either. To me that is the most exciting thing about a first encounter with the principle of least action, is it can make a person realize that our descriptions are provincial, and the possibility of a great discovery, even in the realms we think to have mastered, seems to still be possible.
@debayandas1128
@debayandas1128 5 жыл бұрын
Your insight is powerful.
@defunct1373
@defunct1373 3 жыл бұрын
I had never thought of something that way, thanks for sharing.
@davidfiala1646
@davidfiala1646 3 жыл бұрын
I dont know, if there is another way of comming to the equation for action, but in my class we derived this equation (i.e. S = T - U) from lagrangian and that we derived from Newton's second law. So as this is beautiful, the Newtonian methodology is still necessary, at least in our class it was. Though the principle of least action does not require the second law, only the action does.
@BenDover-gd3mf
@BenDover-gd3mf 2 жыл бұрын
Yes and no...he immediately then uses integration which is Newton's fluxions. The idea here is it's an Occam's Razor, the simplicity is what helps.
@jimdogma1537
@jimdogma1537 10 жыл бұрын
Why does that graph remind me of the Jaws poster from the 70's?
@ChaineYTXF
@ChaineYTXF 5 жыл бұрын
great... now all I can see is a shark
@josefrancis7126
@josefrancis7126 5 жыл бұрын
Because Physics is a mathematical monster. It will bite off a portion of your brain/mind,
@videofountain
@videofountain 4 жыл бұрын
🎺📯🎻 buh buh buh buh 🦈🏊🏻‍♀️
@simonjeffery5055
@simonjeffery5055 11 жыл бұрын
Hi Physics Help. I really enjoyed this video and compliment you on your style in presenting the information. I can not believe that I never came across this Principal (not in high school or Engineering school) until I read that book "The Theoretical Minimum". As Jared points out above it ties nicely into Relativity and QM (I have not tackled String Theory yet). I am looking forward to viewing your other videos.
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 11 жыл бұрын
Hey thanks for the feedback. This is just the first video of a playlist (still in progress right now). In the "Finding the path of least action" videos, you'll find the equivalence to Newton's 2nd law is addressed. You're right about quantum, but I'm waiting until I actually cover the Hamiltonian to allude to quantum mechanics since that's what's more commonly used in quantum.
@comprehensiveboy
@comprehensiveboy 8 жыл бұрын
Principle of Least Action? Kinda sounds like my social life dude. :(
@t3db0t97
@t3db0t97 7 жыл бұрын
I lol'd. This is my new favorite physics joke. Also: sorry X-)
@DiamondSane
@DiamondSane 6 жыл бұрын
Thats because nobody can avoid fundamental physics law.
@Mayank-mf7xr
@Mayank-mf7xr 4 жыл бұрын
this is the first of your videos i have watched and oh god you're amazing. would love to be your subscriber
@Cosmalano
@Cosmalano 9 жыл бұрын
Been reading quantum mechanics and path integrals but couldn't figure out what s was. Thanks man!
@zoltankurti
@zoltankurti 5 жыл бұрын
Dude, you are dumb and a lier. These are not quantum mechanical path integrals, and you would know this if you really read about path integrals. This is classical mechanics. The obvious difference is, that from path integrals, you get a probability of the object being there, and this is not the case with classical mechanics.
@Saptarshi.Sarkar
@Saptarshi.Sarkar 4 жыл бұрын
@City of Stars lol
@zoltankurti
@zoltankurti 5 жыл бұрын
All right, I see great confusion in this comment section, thanks to the misleading title. In mechanics, this principle should be called stationary action, not least action, since it isn't that. The easiest example is a hatmonic oscillator, you can easily sgow that for given boundary conditions staying still has less action than the actual motion of the object. THIS IS NOT THE PRINCIPLE OF LEAST ACTION, BUT THE PRINCIPLE OF STATIONARY ACTION. And there isn't a deep phylosophical depth behind why this works. It just turns out to be mathematically equvivalent to newtons laws. It actually has a connection with quantum mechanics, you can basicakly derive the stationary action from quantum mechanics, but that is a pretty advanced topic.
@afederdk
@afederdk 8 жыл бұрын
Answered exactly the questions I had about this concept.
@TheFirstBK
@TheFirstBK 11 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the simple explanation, brah
@joeboxter3635
@joeboxter3635 4 ай бұрын
S, i believe, because historically this intergral was associated with length (ds) and that was denoted as ds, integrated S. And the idea of shortest path comes from Hygen's principle that light travels shortest distance. But its also L or H.
@TheWellwells
@TheWellwells 10 жыл бұрын
Thank you for posting these videos. They are extremely helpful.
@MrJzsmokesweed5000
@MrJzsmokesweed5000 10 жыл бұрын
Your video was very informative. Thanks!
@MardkoMBR
@MardkoMBR 5 жыл бұрын
Very well explain and helpful, Thank you !
@holyswordStockholm
@holyswordStockholm 8 жыл бұрын
Great informative video!
@davidmiguel5674
@davidmiguel5674 8 жыл бұрын
Really good introduction!
@andrejburcev6023
@andrejburcev6023 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the informative video! Can you please clarify something. From the equation I can conclude that having a small kinetic energy and high potential energy does not really describe the behaviour of the equation. However it is the average DIFFERENCE between them that is important. So average difference should be as small as possible. I.e. both of the energies can be very large or very small, the minimum average difference is the one that wins. What am I missing? (obviously with the assumption that "Action" scalar is always positive)
@andrewtaylor9799
@andrewtaylor9799 3 жыл бұрын
Why should Action always be positive? For a stationary object at some height, potential energy is positive, while kinetic energy is 0, so T-U is negative,.
@WilliamChouffot
@WilliamChouffot 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the explanation of Feynman's Principle of Least Action.
@rajeevkumarajad771
@rajeevkumarajad771 5 жыл бұрын
*Hamilton's principle of least action
@klam77
@klam77 9 жыл бұрын
another way of saying "minimize action" is to: maximize potential energy for a given initial kinetic energy (the speed at which you throw the rock)?
@vancefontaine
@vancefontaine 2 жыл бұрын
Physics University student here, love this video.
@bsingin64
@bsingin64 8 жыл бұрын
Assuming the item were launched from h=0 in a consistent field of gravity, wouldn't this equation always = 0?
@amiralx88
@amiralx88 8 жыл бұрын
thanks you saved my year
@eric_welch
@eric_welch 7 жыл бұрын
Has anyone told you you talk just like Sal Khan from Khan academy?? Thanks ...these vids are helping me prep for my upcoming QFT class ...cheers!!
@sergio3713
@sergio3713 12 күн бұрын
Hello! Not using Newton's F = ma, allow me ask: 1 - Where does the { Action = Integral (K - U)dt} come from? 2 - Where does the {Lagrangian (K - U)} come from? 3 - Can I deduce that I must minimize the Action integral equation from minimizing the potential energy U? 4 - Can you elaborate? Thanks!👋
@IqbalHamid
@IqbalHamid 5 жыл бұрын
@05:26 We use the letetr 'S' for action for some reason? I think the fact that S = T - U, may give us a clue why at least two f these letters were chosen : )
@Tim-Kaa
@Tim-Kaa 5 жыл бұрын
Richard Feynman wrote his PhD thesis on this for QM in 1942
@mooly15
@mooly15 6 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@danielganarojas
@danielganarojas 4 жыл бұрын
Thank for this video, there arent videos on youtube about this, and they do not say exactly the same shit and do not add anything new, thanks bro
@bonjourcoco
@bonjourcoco 9 жыл бұрын
Something bugs me all the time: if i let a rock free fall, it accelerates (increase in T) down (decrease in U). More generally systems tends to minimise their U. Moreover, in relativity, a particule chooses the geodesic with the maximum proper time, and action is essentially the proper time (length along geodesic). So shouldn't that be called the principle of maximum action and reverse your discussion ? I am probably wrong because it's still called the principle of least action, i just don't understand why.
@MBailey019
@MBailey019 9 жыл бұрын
Is there any relation between this and the Lifeguard's Calculation? I've come across both concepts separately, but they both seem to be ways of illustrating the same broader concept.
@MBailey019
@MBailey019 9 жыл бұрын
Also, does this stay true in non-uniform fields?
@comic4relief
@comic4relief 4 жыл бұрын
How does light propagation fit in?
@chrisparsonson8841
@chrisparsonson8841 10 жыл бұрын
so helpful thank you!!
@sinersaiyan6228
@sinersaiyan6228 7 жыл бұрын
How did they conclude that the action should be the integral of T - U,?(or, in other words the Lagrangian) ? I don't quite understand where the T-U comes from and if there could be any other definition and we use this one as it is the simplest one. ( I know that it works as i've solved problems using this concept, but it is this theorical aspect in particular that I couldnt find the answer to.)
@Tyns19
@Tyns19 7 жыл бұрын
siner saiyan in fact the lagrangian is not unique, instead of "L :lagrangian" you can add to it any total time derivative and the physics stay the same, (i.e. L->L+dF/dt) where F is any arbitrary differentiable function Read more about D'alembert principal and you will figure it out
@sinersaiyan6228
@sinersaiyan6228 7 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your answer!
@drizzy8450
@drizzy8450 8 жыл бұрын
Question: "What is the point?!" 8:41 Answer: QUANTUM MECHANICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LoL
@comic4relief
@comic4relief 4 жыл бұрын
Too many exclams
@_HrickKarnaRoy
@_HrickKarnaRoy 5 жыл бұрын
Amazing brother.. I like your teaching process
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks, eh
@MSApro123
@MSApro123 10 жыл бұрын
Big LIKE!
@mohamedbelebardi1836
@mohamedbelebardi1836 Жыл бұрын
It must be called the principle of least energy because action is a force. can we arrive at this principle starting from the forces applied instead of the energies?
@zphuo
@zphuo 6 жыл бұрын
@8:00 is that mean that if start point and final point is fixed, then only middle path is possible?
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 6 жыл бұрын
Yes, but it's key to include the start and final times in the "points".
@zphuo
@zphuo 6 жыл бұрын
thanks
@ultimatequantumguy3131
@ultimatequantumguy3131 6 жыл бұрын
Unless I am significantly misunderstanding, the way in which the narrator describes action at around 8:00 implies that it is impossible to throw a ball higher or lower than a fixed path. I'm assuming that the reason that this is not true is because we're setting the initial kinetic energy by throwing the ball at a fixed speed, and ergo kinetic energy. I still get the point, but it does feel like a slightly unclear description...
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 6 жыл бұрын
The endpoints (including both position and time) are treated as fixed in this method. With fixed (h1, t1) and (h2, t2) fixed, there *is* one possible path given this potential energy function. You could throw the ball on a higher or lower path to the same position, but the time would have to change. Does that help?
@ultimatequantumguy3131
@ultimatequantumguy3131 6 жыл бұрын
Point taken, I was wondering what I must have missed! :)
@nilaksh007
@nilaksh007 5 жыл бұрын
Good video. The pace was a bit slow for me but no problem I just speed up the video to 1.25x
@bennattj
@bennattj 11 жыл бұрын
You are absolutely right that it's interesting (no doubt) and useful (again, no doubt)...I think you should ALSO mention the fact that ALL modern physics is based on this principal, from Relativity to Quantum Mechanics to String Theory. Although this doesn't necessarily "prove" it's correct, it shows how it is actually used (likewise you never really proved that Newton's Laws are equivalent to Hamilton's Principle).
@zoltankurti
@zoltankurti 5 жыл бұрын
But to be honest even texts don't prove it. Did you ever show that for holonom constrained systems described by appropirately choosen generalised koordinates the principle of STATIONARY (not least) action is the same as newtons laws? I guess not, I don't know any texts proving this. They usually show that it's equvivalent for descartes koordinates, but than they usually don't even show for generalised coordinates.
@zoltankurti
@zoltankurti 5 жыл бұрын
Never mind constraints. They are even trickier to prove.
@pcalculas
@pcalculas 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks
@mohamedbelebardi1836
@mohamedbelebardi1836 Жыл бұрын
then matter prefers rest to movement, why?
@Madvilllain
@Madvilllain 10 жыл бұрын
Why would you want T to be small and U to be large? Wouldn't you want them both to be small if you're trying to minimize your differences... a small number subtracted by a large number is still a large difference? Or by a minimum of "S" do you mean negative values as well? ( I guess I'm thinking of absolute differences)
@kat4onelove
@kat4onelove 8 жыл бұрын
+Madvilllain I'm wondering the exact same thing. In physics, I think one should consider absolute differences, since the negative and positive signs are just indicators of direction. Therefore, Shouldn't you want T and U to have roughly the same value? because the the closer the values are to one another, the smaller the difference, right?
@AlchemistOfNirnroot
@AlchemistOfNirnroot 8 жыл бұрын
+Madvilllain T-U=-(T+u)=-E, E cannot be negative since negative energy makes no sense.
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 8 жыл бұрын
+Madvilllain Sorry for the delay on this answer. We're worried about *minimizing* the value of T-U, not about making T and U close to each other. I used the word "difference" because that's usually the word analogous to "sum" when you're subtracting instead of adding, but I see how it's confusing here. (This is a good lesson for me.) If we were worried about the values of T and U being close to each other, our answer would change depending where we decided to define the zero of potential energy (which is always up to us).
@zoltankurti
@zoltankurti 5 жыл бұрын
@@PhysicsHelps and that would be wrong for the harmonic oscillator. You are not minimizeing the action, you arr searching for the stationary points of it. ds/dx=0 is just that. The definition of stationary action, but this mustn't be minimum, nor a maximum.
@zoltankurti
@zoltankurti 5 жыл бұрын
@Hugh Jones the video is wrong, this is not the principle of LEAST action, but the principle of stationary action. Properly put, this says that for small changes of the trajectory, thr action must stay constant.
@bindon8581
@bindon8581 7 жыл бұрын
This is actually God's Way, if there is a god. But Leibniz called it Sufficient Reason. I don't know who invented calculus first. But Newton's Inverse CUBED law explains the wave/particle duality of quantum mechanics, if anyone had bothered to read Newton properly. Fancy Fields Medal maths isn't/wasn't necessary; the solution was staring us in the face all this time. I deserve a medal for pointing it out!
@g3452sgp
@g3452sgp 5 жыл бұрын
Principle of least action. The name sound great! Why things go this way in this world? I feel the deep philosophy in it, don't you.
@kaeshavdanesh4123
@kaeshavdanesh4123 5 жыл бұрын
Iamverysmart
@sairamkukkadapu5496
@sairamkukkadapu5496 8 жыл бұрын
U are so smart where did u get all this information from
@dankuchar6821
@dankuchar6821 4 жыл бұрын
College
@justintahmassebpur5740
@justintahmassebpur5740 3 жыл бұрын
damn leonardo dicaprio getting some action
@Sock1122
@Sock1122 7 жыл бұрын
this is impressivly good. only 1:40 in
@drbonesshow1
@drbonesshow1 2 жыл бұрын
The Principle of Most Action is moshing your way around a nightclub or stadium.
@bouhababrahim2292
@bouhababrahim2292 3 жыл бұрын
U saved my brain 🧠
@blarnblarn8400
@blarnblarn8400 5 жыл бұрын
He sounds like Steve Carell :D
@thomasfisherson
@thomasfisherson 4 жыл бұрын
So the Universe is like me - tries its best to half-ass it
@user-qn5gv1dw6t
@user-qn5gv1dw6t 5 жыл бұрын
Iunder stand thankyou
@comic4relief
@comic4relief 4 жыл бұрын
I'm not sure your depiction of why it works is right. It should not be too hard to visualize.
@karimkhan1312
@karimkhan1312 10 жыл бұрын
i first read least action in 1983-- but i under stood today-- thank u
@derrickc2823
@derrickc2823 4 жыл бұрын
thought you were going to solve it
@americanborn6768
@americanborn6768 5 жыл бұрын
LoL...I wonder if ROCKpeople ever throw STICKS
@klam77
@klam77 9 жыл бұрын
oops. it's about AVERAGE over the path.
@MiladP
@MiladP 11 жыл бұрын
Great stuff, however, I have a comment to make: Please speed up the past of your videos. Thanks :)
@dankuchar6821
@dankuchar6821 4 жыл бұрын
Letter S is used because it's from German, where this came from.
@michaelspencer833
@michaelspencer833 10 жыл бұрын
I think the comment about the shallow path having a small kinetic energy is wrong. To go just as far while subjected to the same gravity, it must be thrown quite hard. Bullets take a pretty flat trajectory.
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 10 жыл бұрын
Thanks, this is a good point to clarify. The example in the video is about a rock being thrown straight upward into the air, so it's only moving in one spatial dimension, and the x-axis of the graph is time. So a flat path from point 1 to 2 would mean the rock barely moves, meaning the kinetic energy is small.
@michaelspencer833
@michaelspencer833 10 жыл бұрын
PhysicsHelps Oh, ok! I wasn't paying attention well enough and went ahead assumed that it was a x-y graph. Thanks for the video, it was quite helpful, and interesting!
@dlbattle100
@dlbattle100 10 жыл бұрын
PhysicsHelps Still, it could take ANY of the "parabolic" paths depending on how hard it was thrown. How does this setup take into account how hard the rock is thrown initially?
@jamesusespivot
@jamesusespivot 9 жыл бұрын
PhysicsHelps according to the principle of least action, why does a rock fall when let go. shouldn't it stay still so it has maximum u and no t
@musicinajar
@musicinajar 9 жыл бұрын
jamesusespivot Using the principle you analyze the trajectory, you don't determine/drive the trajectory. If you let go of the rock it's not at its minimum of potential energy anymore, so the rock will fall to the ground. With the principle of least action you analyze what happens between the moment you let go of the rock (t0) and the moment it hit the ground (t1).
@TheDavidlloydjones
@TheDavidlloydjones 7 жыл бұрын
It won't look like a parabola: it's an ellipse. -- Kepler.
@alphamikeomega5728
@alphamikeomega5728 5 жыл бұрын
Not for a flat earth!
@deconfinedQPT
@deconfinedQPT 7 жыл бұрын
Why T-V ?
@deconfinedQPT
@deconfinedQPT 7 жыл бұрын
Indeed, not even just because it lacks intuitive explanation but also one must bear in mind that not in all cases Lagrangian is defined to be T-V. Hence I believe there must be some physical explanation for that matter.
@denglish5275
@denglish5275 6 жыл бұрын
There is a very nice derivation of the langrange formalism from Newtonian mechanics in Goldstein's book chapter 1. It illuminates how kinetic energy minus potential energy comes about quite well.
@alijoueizadeh8477
@alijoueizadeh8477 4 жыл бұрын
I wonder too.
@ernestschoenmakers8181
@ernestschoenmakers8181 4 жыл бұрын
This can be derived from D'Alembert's virtual displacement theorem.
@user-je4xw6tx3k
@user-je4xw6tx3k 4 жыл бұрын
4:15 a mistake here, if we add up all the points from t1 to t2 of the difference of KE and PE, that would be infinity for sure, it is because there are infinitely many points. So the correct way to say this is draw another graph with T-U to be the y-axis and time to be the x-axis, and calculate the area of it.
@JeannoC
@JeannoC 4 жыл бұрын
That is not true, because the difference will be infinitely small as well. I guess you want to take a look at some basic integration concepts.
@user-je4xw6tx3k
@user-je4xw6tx3k 4 жыл бұрын
@@JeannoC no, you are not true, the difference of KE-PE at any moment is definitly NOT infinitestial small. For example, i can tell the PE at h by mgh for any instant
@user-je4xw6tx3k
@user-je4xw6tx3k 4 жыл бұрын
@@JeannoC any INSTANT, the total energy of the system is NOT infintestial small, it is constant at any MOMENT. you are the one who need to look at basic calculus.
@hyperdimensionallight4931
@hyperdimensionallight4931 3 жыл бұрын
this is awesome. Maybe "Action" in French starts with an S.
@davidelm5401
@davidelm5401 8 жыл бұрын
NO, IF YOU THROW IT HIGHER it will take longer to come back down. your graph shows it moving faster then returning in the same time.
@PhysicsHelps
@PhysicsHelps 8 жыл бұрын
+DAVID ELM This method assumes the beginning and ending points and times are fixed, and it finds the *path* between those two points. This seems useless since we're normally wondering what the end result will be (rather than knowing it ahead of time), and in the case of projectiles, Newton's laws work just fine. But this method results in some powerful equations that make analysis easier in more complex situations. (I'd encourage you to watch further into the series.)
@travellcriner6849
@travellcriner6849 6 жыл бұрын
There's something philosophically wrong with the narrator's approach: 1) The narrator defines action formally. 2) The narrator reveals the path taken is that of least action. 3) The narrator appeals to our intuition; it makes sense that you take the path that makes you do the least. The philosophical issue is that while the intuition in step 3 is sound, there is no reason to believe what is called "action" in our case has anything to do with the intuitive notion of "action." I mean, one could replace the curious label of "action" with "number of debt collectors" and rename the principle to "The law of taking the path with the least number of debt collectors." Why should I believe there's anything intrinsically sensible in referring to what has been defined as "action?"
@trumanknight873
@trumanknight873 6 жыл бұрын
Ok david hume
@NotDavidCameron1
@NotDavidCameron1 5 жыл бұрын
You're not as smart as you think you are
@time3390
@time3390 5 жыл бұрын
NotDavidCameron1 Yes cuz he may be even smarter.
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