I think Jan has done a better job of narrativizing his videoes as of late, but he and many other people enjoy the min maxing stuff primarily so that cool for them. I think there is space for both more narrative/casual and challenging/minmax nuzlockes to exist.

I’m sure you’ve probably seen him before but that’s why I like FlygonHG so much. It’s usually the gameplay of the higher end nuzlockes but he tries hard to tell a story in all of his runs too. The X and Y ones are especially good with how he does the video for the champion every time he fights her. Really, he just has a way for making you care about any Pokémon on his team with basically any screen time

Jan recently (a few months ago now) did a playthrough of the Emerald run and bun rom hack which was interesting for how he steadily stopped playing optimally and just played for fun. By the end he knew he was going to fail, and knew the optimal play was to reset and start again, but he just kept on going, with a smile on his face, growing more and more attached to the 6-8 mons he had left. When he did finally fail, he wasn’t sad, he was satisfied, because he had created a story, just like in the old days.

I always loved narrative-focused nuzlockes, in my Ultra Sun nuzlocke I was so devastated when Gladion killed 5 members of my team, only for Vanilla Cake the Vikavolt to avenge them all and survive until the end to sacrifice herself against Hau's Noivern, it added so much drama to it all and it wouldn't have been as engaging without it

JaidenAnimations’ Nuzlocke videos were what drew me into the idea of a Nuzlocke in the first place. Her method of storytelling is so much fun, and her comedic timing is on point. Jan’s videos are interesting and all, but nothing draws me in like a good story.

I think its just a natural progression of the content. You can only watch "KZfaqr who screams a lot" lose a Pokemon because they forgot something basic like which types are super effective so many times before you have a desire to see someone play well. I think theres space for both kinds of the content to exist.

as someone who grew up with Marriland's nuzlocke series, it makes me sad that kind of thing has sort of waned over the years. It's the entire reason I think nuzlockes are cool and fun

Jan is cool. It’s more his community that pushes his personal style as the “one true way” to do nuzlockes. He doesn’t actually care what other people do and is very vocal about how it’s cringe to get mad at people over how they play a childrens’ game. Either way though I dislike how his style has spread. Nuzlockes began with webcomics that gave character and personality to Pokemon. It was supposed to be a way to make the games more emotionally resonant, not just harder. Now it’s just all about doing the childrens’ game good.

You summed it up super well, while I appreciate the effort and research that goes into the super hard challenge runs videos like Salty's friendlocke and Jaiden's old nuzlocke videos really do put an emphasis on what makes nuzlockes so special.

One of my favourite things about a Nuzlocke are the deaths. It may seem morbid and sadistic but I feel like it's the core to this challenge. The fact that Pokemon can't just faint and come back and hearing the pain in peoples voices when Terrence the Swellow dies to a crit before the Elite Four. It like a beloved character dying in a show. You feel the protagonists' pain but know they'll come out stronger. It's why I shifted to hardcore nuzlockes myself. I knew if I used items then it would be too easy and I know I'm stupid enough to make a mistake that'll cost me like that one time in a Sun Nuzlocke where I refused to use my Espeon Forest (long story with that nickname) for large battles because it was basically my child until he got crit at either the Totem Kommo-o or Mother Beast Lusamine and I never forgave myself.

I like Jan's videos in the same way as i like a Summoning Salt video. I'm invested in the story of a person overcoming a challenge, not the story-driven approach the Nuzlocke was based on

I kinda like both aspects of nuzlocking, I like thinking about stuff like "Oh if I catch this here by dupe clause I can guarantee that there, or use repels to narrow the pool here" that's fun to do and I like putting some thought into a normal run. I also really love going "That's the Bogey difference babey" when my Linoone Bogey gets double digit flinches in a row and then crying out to the heavens when he gets critted and farted by Maxie's Golbat.

I think there’s a difference between causal and competitive nuzlocking, and that the competitive aspect of it is growing more and people are missing the casual side. I feel like this kinda growth is inevitable with any game. The magic disappears once you take it that seriously.

This is pretty interesting! I think you're right about nuzlockes being engaging because they provide a narrative, though I would be harsher. "Expert gamer beats difficult game" is trivia, "weedle sole survivor of nuzlocke run" is a story. I think it works well outside of this, too. Consider the hardcore minecraft streamer Ph1lza, who only went viral after he died in his hardcore run. "Expert gamer plays hardcore minecraft for 5 years" is trivia, "expert gamer's 5-year run defeated by baby zombie" is a story.

Tyranitartube is who introduced the idea of nuzlockes to me with Extreme, and I deadass cried when long time members died, that's what made me love nuzlockes, the narrative he crafts is incredible

To expand upon this, the issue I have with modern nuzlockes is that they really cater to this mode of playing the game (calcs and etc) when in reality, most people who would want to play a rom, don't want to dedicate that level of commitment. The games are being made for streamers who need the extreme, instead of being a tough, but fair experience without significant previous knowledge.

I feel like the best story-driven nuzlocke series we've ever gotten was that modded Alpha Sapphire series by TyranitarTube. Either that or I'm just extremely nostalgic.

This is something I felt a lot. Having game knowledge is one thing but knowing the exact way the AI behaves and running stat calcs I think reduces the game down to a series of equations on a graphing calculator. I do a soft level cap for this reason, budgeting xp feels really weird and forces bad play over the most minimal advantage. I aim for the cap and really don’t try to go over it but if it happens it happens. I also do all of the post game, I think that builds upon the story in a cool way. Beating Wallace in Emerald wasn’t enough, I had to go beat Steven too.

I havent watched Jan in a while but from what I remember he would always respond with something along the lines of "its a self-imposed challenge in a kids game" to people in his audence who would get mad about other players not using "true" nuzlocke rules, he never personally tried to push an elitist mindset with nuzlocking and always emphaisized how having fun was most important, the level of challenge he imposed on himself is just what's fun for him. I remember this specifically when he didn't care about Jaiden redoing the elite four in her Platinum nuzlocke while his audence flipped their lid over it. Unfortunately, sending a message through your content is harder than it seems, and too many people want to make the whole concept of nuzlockeing cometetive instead of something we do for fun

I think part of this is that youtube as a platform has started awarding specialized channels more and more. Before Nuzlockes could be done by "Gaming" youtubers cause they felt like getting some footage and heard about this fun unique way to do it and they would get some extra views. While now Nuzlockes are done by Nuzlockers to be condensed into 1 video they put out weekly. Being specifically a "Nuzlocker" will inevitably make you inherently better at the game and having to be on the 1 video a week grind will make being efficient and not losing a bunch early on a necessity so of course you're gonna be damage calcing through the whole thing.

Honestly the more i look at modern nuzlockes the more i think about Exelblem and how it feels it somehow strikes the balance while being “optimal” and having a somewhat gripping narrative. Because of the environment it’s set in.

this is the reason i love tyranitartube so much. Everyone of his pokemon deaths feel like a beloved character in a series dying.

TyranitarTube's Alpha Sapphite Nuzlocke is probably the best story driven nuzlocke that will ever exist imo

I feel like the most apt comparison with Nuzlocking is Speedrunning. They are both different ways of engaging with the game in a more challenging way, and the idea that people don’t get attached to their Pokemon because they’re making a new team is ridiculous, what often ends up happening, with my runs at least, is that instead of getting attached to 6 Pokemon, I get attached to 30, sometimes more, because every team member in my box has a role. Even if that role is to explode and nothing else, that’s still more use than 80% of the Pokemon caught in a Pre-Challenge driven nuzlocke

What I dislike is the rare candies since all the most exciting and scary moments in my personal nuzlockes were from grinding and random trainers

This video offers a great perspective that I personally never thought of before. Im someone that does appreciate the meta and min maxing of nuzlockes and I think they def have their place on the platform but having it overshadow the story based, more casual play throughs is something I’ve never concerned. Which is even more ironic considering the term nuzlocke was popularized after someone made a webcomic about their own nuzlocke (Ruby hard mode). With the direction KZfaqs been shifting towards tho with a lot of creators focusing on more narrative driven videos tho I do think there’s hope for a resurgence

at a fundamental level, almost every game I can think of transforms into an entirely different experience when played at a high level. it's like the difference between survival and score runs in arcade games, or your first playthrough of a game versus a speedrun. it's only natural to think of super mario 64 levels in a new way when you're focusing on movement mastery, camera management, and consistency. there's a slow progression from casual to pro, where you enjoy the game and its mechanics and want to challenge yourself, and that's what nuzlockes are about too. when players enjoy a game, they build communities and witness their own success at overcoming obstacles along with others' stories. high level communities are a beautiful thing to observe and be a part of, but I feel like the progression aspect of that is lost in youtube videos, especially when less experienced players focus on imitating the top level (like speedruns) without being ready for it. a lot of youtubers try to imitate the best of the best by trying hard nuzlockes or speedruns for "content" which is a perfectly fine niche (in moderation), however it doesn't work with the modern day skill ceiling of those challenges. you'd need to do some serious research before attempting to make a video like that. now that more hardcore nuzlockes are being popularized, the challenge has transformed into being more of a planning puzzle game with damage calculations and stuff, and people who played for years have cleanly adapted to the change. it would be too overwhelming to just jump into the deep end without experience; it's far from what a casual player would have the patience to get into doing, and I don't think it should be "normalized" over the classic story approach. the number 1 rule in game design for designing a smooth experience is steady exposure to new mechanics. it helps players feel like they're being challenged and getting good, regardless of skill level. being highly skilled isn't everything in a game, and doesn't always make for good entertainment (like 30 mins of teambuilding+damage calcs before every trainer). something I see a lot in games with high skill ceilings is top players being expected to be perfect and tas-like, and top players who don't have as much passion for the game come, burn out, and go, as they stop seeing the game as a "game", and more like a vessel for being good. when youtubers or top players feel pressure to over-perform, it's very common to lose sight of why they play the game in the first place. (I struggle a lot with the harmful mindset of pressuring myself too hard and comparing my skill to others, but with experience I learned to keep in mind that improvement isn't a competition). casual play and top level play can exist in the same community at the same time, but there needs to be a clear distinction between them so players don't set unrealistic expectations for themselves (and the pro gamers need to be kind to the noobs). jan often drives home the point that you should always play with whatever nuzlocke rules you find fun, and to not let anyone tell you the right way to play the game. this is extremely important but often overlooked advice that can only come from someone who gets a lot of enjoyment and passion out of what they do. they want everyone to feel the way they did when they had their own clyde the scatterbug, even if they're long past that point. no matter what your preferred way of playing the game is, everyone deserves to have the passion to remember their own "story of clyde", and once you experience that, it makes sense why this arbitrary video game challenge is still around

i think the more recent flygonhg vids do a decent balance, having a narritive story but also still trying to have optimized gameplay.

This is why I love playing randomizer nuzlockes. For me, the fun comes from rolling with your punches, taking what you can get, and thinking on your feet rather than just knowing what's going to happen beforehand.

I dunno man. The story of Dewgone the Dewgong in blue kaizo being excited to go to the elite 4 not realizing hes a sac. Hes got a family and the vets on his team are looking real awkward. Top tier storytelling.

I started watching nuzlockes because of pokemon rawb and I always loved how he did nuzlockes. He had a rule “no cannon fodder” which meant he couldn’t switch just to sac a mon which made the game so much harder and made the stakes much higher

I think that roguelike romhack actually adds back a lot of the narrative stuff, even when it's not a nuzzlocke your encounters are still limited, and you really don't know what you're fighting until the fight starts you can't bulbapedia your way to victory

I couldn't agree more. Nuzzlocke were supposed to make you care about Pokémon... Nuzzlockers today won't even nickname them.

I understand what you’re saying but I don’t think it’s a problem at all, here’s why 1: storytelling is what you make of it. As a creator, it’s your job to make the story and make everything entertaining, regardless of how you play the game. A good example is Smallant, who does boring grindy challenges like the no damage Platinum run, and even though he swept through the entire game, the strategies made and the way he told it made it one of the most viewed videos in Pokémon as a whole. Jans stories are more about him and his journey of completing the game, not his in game character, and he goes very in depth with his content, which isn’t a problem at all, it’s just not for everyone 2: content comes in many forms. Similar to the last point, when playing a game like Pokémon, it’s important to be playing the way you enjoy most. A lot of people like optimizing the game in interesting ways and adding things to make the game more difficult, because sometimes the gameplay is more enjoyable than the story, which is a pretty fair point considering most nuzlockes regardless of style, substitute Pokémon story with their own. It’s no different from challenge runs in other RPGs like Persona, the only difference with Pokémon is the amount of team options you get compared to other games in the genre, which is interesting regardless of how you present it 3: every game can and will be optimized. It doesn’t matter if it’s Mario Kart, Street Fighter, or Pokémon, there is optimization in every game, but how it functions differs. One of the biggest “challenge” for games is speedrunning, which is very similar to nuzlocking, it’s an arbitrary self imposed challenge that exploits the game through data and knowledge, tbh the only big difference is the stakes and the timer, yet they’re treated entirely differently. You can sweep through a game with a level 80 mon where manipulation is key, or you can plan out every fight because the execution makes the content, either way they are exploiting similar things, and people will gravitate towards it At the end of the day, like this video says, and like every nuzlocker says, play Pokémon in the way that’s most fun for you, but also do the same for watching it, there’s content for everyone in Pokémon and if you don’t like optimized gameplay, and prefer a story, that’s fine. If you like the damage calcs and risk vs reward, with fun rules to limit your strength like no EV grinding, that’s fine too. I referenced Smant before and want to mention other KZfaqrs who prove that content and story is what you make of it. Any animation channel, who can create their own interpretations of their Pokémon and player, the best known being Jaiden Ofc. There’s creators who focus on the content and algorithm, like Ludwig or my personal favourite, Alpharad, who faked losing a nuzlocke because the end wasn’t interesting, and relied on storytelling and literary devices to make it entertaining, especially since, as he said, who uploads a highly edited nuzlocke that you lose. FlygonHG is one of the creators who bridges personal story with top level nuzlocking and it’s always a nice change of pace. Even outside of nuzlockes there’s shiny hunters, speed runners like PulseEffects, random arbitrary challenge goers like Johnstone, competitive story tellers like Wolfey, and competitive influencers like Cybertron. MandJTV is someone who admits to their distaste of nuzlockes but still does fun and goofy games and challenges. Do what you want and ENJOY POKÉMON

I didn't actually think about this until this video. My first few nuzlockes were super story focussed and I used to try and do what I could to help the team survive. Now, I don't care about my teams as much and focus on winning rather than survival

The whole origin for nuzlocke was a character building story. I'll never forget the nuzlocke comics that's started this all I used to read them weekly it wasnt about hard mode pokemon, the story he created around it was the main focus

Even though Jan is the best Nuzlocker in terms of knowledge and experience, my all time favourite will probably always be Marriland. Back when he did a lot of Nuzlockes specifically for KZfaq (he did streamed ones later but they weren't the same), I enjoyed the amount of knowledge / self imposed difficulty he'd add, while still having a good amount of investment in his teams. For example people would make fan art of his teams pokemon, and anytime one died, he'd add to the video a little funeral for them and a tribute showing off all the art made for that pokemon. It was great and it made you as a viewer care about the pokemon. His Wedlocke variant is also probably my favourite Nuzlocke variant too, since it's not only difficult, but because your team becomes three teams of 2, you get a lot more invested in your pokemon.

This is my exact feeling. I miss the 5-10 episode nuzlocke series we used to see fun creators that weren't that knowledgeable about the game. Griffin McElroy's Y Nuzlocke on polygon comes to mind. Even someone like Marriland, who was very skilled, found ways to make the story of the Nuzlocke the most interesting part. My favorite part of nuzlockes was always using Pokemon I never would have used otherwise, and getting attached to them. That's what it'll always be about to me

I think that the second you bring up calculators to determine if youll survive a hit or one shot an opponent, you ruin the story telling of a nozlocke. I enjoy Jan’s content sometimes but it feels too robotic when I keep hearing about calcs and damage rolls

I've always thought there's something bizarre about Kaizo Nuzlockes, in that they lose the appeal of both Kaizos and Nuzlockes. The whole thing becomes almost entirely pre-determined and it's just a dice roll if you get through it or not.

I dig the thesis here. I'm surprised there's not a fangame out there that forces Nuzlocke rules and then has a more dynamic story built around it. I feel like that would do numbers on the platform as soon as it got into the hands of the right people.

For anyone who wants one of those story based nuzlockes I suggest the Team Four Star Gaming playthroughs. Specifically FireRed and Soul Silver, as they are a connected story

That's why randomized nuzlockes have been so popular imo. The element of surprise is thrown back in the game when you have no idea what you're about to fight. One run you get destroyed by a Raichu in the 6th gym because all your mons somehow are out sped and die to 1 thunder. The next run you have a team full of legendaries with sun boosted abilities and a drought skiploom leading a team of fucking gods to start each battle. If I'm playing by myself, 10/10 times I'm finding a harder game than the last to try and nuz. If I'm playing with a few friends, randomized through and through.

pchal and chaotic meatball nuzlockes feel joyless and whiny. Like they’re doing it out of obligation, which they probably are since poketubing has been in the trenches for years at this point

My favorite part about Nuzlockes is that they force you to use Pokemon you otherwise wouldn't choose for your team, which deepens your appreciation for that Pokemon and broadens your appreciation of the Pokedex and how the game structures availability. Did a Normal Nuzlocke of Pokemon Y and got a ton of use out of Furfrou and Wigglytuff. Also learning that a lot of the Victory Road trainers pack Focus Blast was a surprise lol

I think one of the best PokeTuber of the Nuzlocke genre is Tyranitartube. Getting a team to make a Randomized Alpha sapphire, Sun, Sword games, and even nuzlocking hard fan games. His nuzlockes are like nothing else seen on the platform because nobody else really cares for the Nuzlocke or respects the Nuzlocke. Ttar goes out of his way sometimes to make the nuzlocke harder if he notices something might be to easy or broken. And when a pokemon Dies... he crafts a story montage for them. But im not saying that Randomizing your game or playing a fan game fixes the problem. Like you said in your vid, Poketubers now dont care for the narrative of the story of the game anymore cuz they've either played the game to hell and back or just only care about the content of beating the game. TTar actually got into the story of each game and spread his run over multilple episode because he actually reads dialogue, and you can see from his fanbase that they also care fore the story and have favorite characters or pokemon that TTAR used.

I understand your perspective, I got into nuzlocke with the original nuzlocke webcomic and was enthralled with all the other webcomics popping up, a petty nuzlocke, pokemon cystal double nuzlocke and first summer, to name a few. So for me Nuzlocke has always been about the narative and so the switch to a strictly skill and mechanical viewpoint was a bit sad for me at first. But accepting that nuzlockes have largely changed (on youtube) made it easier to just enjoy the videos as they are. And then we have some lovely exceptions like Saltydkdan's friendlocke as you mentioned.

For me when I use to watch marriland he crafted a story in his nuzlockes and didn't rush anything. He gave the pokemon and even side characters life and for me that was in the spirit of the original Ruby Hard mode comic. It was like a TV show where you got invested in the characters waiting for the next part. Marriland also didn't look up everything mainly just level limits and did it via memory which I find more interesting. How nuzlockes are now a series probably wouldn't perform well on KZfaq but a whole run being in one video where everything is super optimised is just a little boring to me like your taking the fun out of it or do toxic stalling for 90% of the boss fights its just not interesting. I know people will disagree with me here but for me the character has gone and each run I see is just not for me. Play how you like but spice it up and don't do the same things over and over. Change your rulesets or hell do a different challenge other than a HC Nuzlocke

TFS Gaming's Nuzlockes have a special place in my heart for how you feel each death. And even then, their catchphrase is "Shall Not Be Missed!" which is funny as hell.

As a culprit of those sweaty nuzlockes, i really enjoyed the video and the case you made!

Tbh a reason on why I love Folagor and his nuzlockes is even tho he plays them casually compared to everyone else (unless when he's about to lose) he tries to keep you entertained and always wait for 4pm spain time to tune into the next episode albeit by making a bet with his comment section like dying his hair pink for example; his ruleset makes it fair for you and challenging at the same time, specially seeing that he incorporates lives into the mix making it that if you sac a mon it could work for you on the short term but will screw you on the long term; you feel for every death he's had on the run either from rage because of a misplay he made or bad for him because of the insanely horrible luck he's had.

they aren't playing nuzlockes they are just going through the scientific method

Playing a blind nuzlocke is genuinely the most enjoyable balance of fun and pain and strategy and adaption I've ever experienced. I couldn't recommend it higher.

I like the idea that when crab is talking he edits it by wiggling a jpeg on top of a background

You inspired me for a new nuzlocke type. Because I’m nothing like Jan but I can’t do animation or drawings. So what about a nuzlocke challenge where when a Pokémon dies I have to write a chapter in a fiction series about the dead Pokémon and the adventure I had with them?

Makes me wish that they would refer to their version of the challenge differently. I wonder how many content creators have read the original nuzlocke comic or any of the fanrun comics that were the life blood of the niche for so long. There are some excellent stories told through those comics and they deserve some recognition

I stumbled onto this video midway through editing my own nuzlocke and i love the points you brought up and will try and use them myself! Excellent video!

I mean there is room for everyone. Jayden did my favorite story based nuzlocke I also like FlygonHG Alpharad and small ant. There's plenty of narrative driven nuzlockes by so many large creators and I prefer pokemonchallenges above all of them because it's fun seeing someone doing difficult challenges and coming up with new strategies for modded versions of my favorite games. I just don't enjoy regular runs of pokemon anymore they're too easy and I've beaten them all so channels like pkchallenges are such a nice refresher for me and he inspires me to replay some of my old favorites in a more challenging way

As someone who is a math person, I think it is really cool too see all of the damage calculations, and the amount of planning. You are right it is a completely different genre with a completely different goal than what early nuzlocking was. Some of my favorite nuzlockes watch were the ones where people were trying to nuzlocke sword and shield while playing the game blind because it was more storytelling than damage calculation

If I had a nickel for every time I heard the phrase "Sonic had a rough transition into 3D" I would have enough money to buy the shotgun that these people make me want to suckstart.

shoutout to the original nuzlocke comic

the points you brought up about what made the nuzlocke feel amazing to play was exactly what felt about with Failboat's Pokemon sun and moon nuzlocke (hes not a pokemon focused youtuber just for anyone who's curious) TL:DR his nuzlocke streams got me super emotionally invested in his team and I felt heart wrenched whenever one of them fell (spoiler warning I guess if you haven't seen it but want to or something like that) I remember he started a nuzlocke with his starter being popplio and things seemed like they were going so well with fail having a pretty solid early game team... only for one lady and her magnemite to completely wipe out his entire team and leaving him with a failed nuzlocke. i remember how i felt watching him boot up a completely new pokemon moon save and how he got a rowlet for a starter while looking completely apathetic towards it. that was only the beginning too. after getting really far into the game fail had gotten over the last nuzlocke for a while now but then lost one of his strongest pokemon, and later on he got a full team wipe against an alolan persian (hes considered it to be his least favourite pokemon after that) and had watch each of his team members get released while he said goodbye to each and every one of them. its still probably one of my favourite nuzlocke streams/videos to this day

I STINK at Pokémon battling. Maybe I should start streaming again...but with Nuzlockes. If it's drama you want, you'll see plenty of it the multitude of times I'll lose "my new favorite Pokémon". 😂

I agree. My first playthrough of Pokemon Gold was by far the most fun I've ever had playing through a pokemon game, and back then I knew almost nothing about pokemon. Even since I've noticed that pokemon is 1000 time more fun when you don't know what's going on, when you don't care about base stats or natures.

So, there was an Emerald hack that came out recently (and I think Jan Pokemon Challenges helped with) called Pokemon Run and Bun, essentially aiming to be Emerald Kaizo 2. It seems like something that I'd enjoy watchng in theory, but my god, watching streams of it are miserable. Just about every single trainer fight, not just boss fights, is preceded with like 30 minutes of damage calcs and teambuilding for a fight that'll last maybe five minutes. And I think Jan himself said that the reason why he doesn't do randomizers is so that he has full game knowledge to work with, nut like...that unpredictablity is what makes nuzlockes fun to me, both to play and to watch. To have that shock of not knowing what's gonna happen, and a team member dying to something I didn't see coming is genuinely fun to me. And for folks like Jan or FlygonHG and whoever else, to them the fun comes from the puzzle aspect of it. Which is fair enough. I dunno. To each their own, it's just very much not my cup of tea.

Nuzlockes are for everyone, and that's why when people ask what rulesets they should start with, people encourage them to start with the basic ruleset so that it is the most fun. That way they can have that story-driven playthrough. I watched the videos of those Emerald Kaizo Nuzlocke coverage, and he tried to play blind for as long as he could, but it just got to a point where it just wasn't feasable, because every trainer was mandatory and potentially dangerous because of the cascading effects of a single death. So even if the story isn't the same, the story isn't there. Bill died, meaning that I didn't have him for X task, meaning that Sherry died, meaning that I didn't have her for Y task, leading to a wipe.

a rule in my nuzlockes which always led to me caring about my team was that I couldn't switch out my party. Only way I was getting new team members was if someone died, and I was not going to just kill one of my team members, that's jim, he's been with me since route 4, I can't just let him die!

I will say as someone who learned about Nuzlockes through the Petty Leaf Green Nuzlocke Webcomic I find the shift from story to the challenge very weird but not shocking. If this type of content is trying to thrive in the modern KZfaq it makes sense to emphasize the impossible challenge and cut through the adventure instead of developing each step. Its just more feasible with the ruthless social media algorithm

Min maxing in a pokemon nuzlocke with damage calculators and guides is like challenging a bunch of low level chess computers with the highest level chess computer. There is no risk if you just always pick the objectively best move possible, so why wouldn’t you? It turns an already easy game into a solved game.

why is the crab looking naked crabs in the computer

I enjoy watching Jan's videos for different reasons then more story like style videos such as Jaidens or others. I feel like it's straight forward, to the point, and the dry humor is (not necessarily funny) but entertaining. Idk Jan's videos have such a specific vibe that I can enjoy from time to time 😅

This is a good, interesting video on Nuzlockes Now, I am subbed to PChal and FlygonHG and I love watching their playthroughs, the strategies they come up with, the difficult fights, these kinda things really push the player to their limits against games that can be very punishing (especially the ROM hacks), I like seeing the min maxing Hell, that's how I play stuff in general, and I've done exactly one Nuzlocke myself before (in White 2) and watching PChal in particular helped me learn and strategize But... It also does feel like these are one, seemingly the ONLY Pokemon challenge content out there, two, feel much more.. clinical? surgical? I'm not sure, but every playthrough is now down to an exact science, even factoring in RNG-- you plan for as many possible outcomes as you can, the resource management, and three, these seem to be the ONLY way to play these games now and if you aren't even just playing the games regularly, it's like, who cares, why would you play it quote "wrong" unquote It feels like everyone focuses more on the challenge rather than the story, but I also can't fault them for that Because it is still fun to watch and, presumably, even with long sessions of calcs and shit, fun to play, fun to see the execution In my very own Nuzlocke, I themed the whole playthrough after characters from Fire Emblem Thracia 776, an infamously difficult and frustrating Fire Emblem game And while I tried to min max and play as best as I could, I ended up making some boneheaded mistakes right before the end and that nearly cost me the run, only managing to win with exactly one Pokemon left alive (Excadrill) But even with those mistakes, I named each Pokemon after a character from the game and I'd tie their actual character stories together with the story unfolding as I played For example, my Elite Four team was Excadrill (Mareeta), Bisharp (Galzus), Stoutland (Eyvel), Electivire (Tanya), Darmanitan (Dagdar), and Lapras (Nanna) VERY Fighting weak, and half of the team died to Marshal, meaning I had to take on the rest and Iris with only three Pokemon What made this all the more tragic was that Stoutland, Lapras, and Darmanitan were all named after close relatives and family for the other three Eyvel is Mareeta's foster mother, Tanya is Dagdar's daughter, Nanna is Mareeta's friend Then against Iris, Bisharp and Darmanitan had to go down swinging for me to win-- Mareeta's long lost father Galzus, who only reunites with her at the end of the game, had to be separated from her once more, and Dagdar here not only lost his daughter, but his own life, all of this leaving Mareeta by her lonesome To sum up, I basically tore families apart for the sake of victory, and when put in that context it sounds awful, but a mix of my own mistakes and needed what had to be done to win made my first Nuzlocke quite the experience You don't really like... you just don't see any of this in Nuzlockes now, because obviously, people are better at this than I am, they're more skilled, they wouldn't have victory come down to the wire like that, nor would they name Pokemon in such a manner (it's often just anagrams or city names or whatever), so there's nothing tying them all together like this I don't know if I have a point with this, I just wanted to talk about my Nuzlocke experience, and I can't see Nuzlocke content changing at all ever, it's just gonna be done with harder and harder games and ROM hacks, and it'll be fun to watch the min maxing and gameplay, and that's about it

This is the reason I like MandJTV's playthroughs so much, because they're all about the narrative rather than just being an optimization run

Ultimately, it's like the difference between watching a playthrough of a new game, or at least the player's first run, and watching speedrunning of a game you and the player have played through dozens of times already. I personally found nuzlockes through the original ruby hard mode comics and loved all of the series they did. I also am bad/casual/lazy enough to enjoy the narrative aspect of my own runs and watch the alpharad/jaiden animation type videod for the same reason. However, I also like watching the optimisation that goes into Jan's runs and genuinely enjoy the personality he brings to it. It's equally as hard making a genuinely compelling and interesting narrative as it is cracking the code for a game like Emerald Kaizo. Just different strokes for different folks at the end of the day whether you are watching or playing yourself.

I've noticed a trend in a few communities that I follow, Commander (Magic the Gathering), Dungeons and Dragons, and now Pokemon apparently... It's the take of "Another person is enjoying the game I enjoy, but pushed to its absolute limits, meaning they're not having fun like I am!" But like... yes they are? They have fun in a different way than you do, but they still have fun! Let people have fun the way THEY want to have fun...

Thank you talking crab, I shall help feed the algo

I agree with idea that nuzlockes should stick with the attachment and story you are telling when playing them. A bad nature means nothing if that Pokémon become your surprise ace. I remember losing many times to challenge difficultly of White 2 so when I finally beat the game with two Pokémon I had since the beginning, I was ecstatic! It really was like a D&D adventure and that’s why I like playing them. I love drama and angst mixed with action and humor.

I don't know where you are going from here, but the prologe of the video really shows you know all you need to be famous and makes millions on essays

This would ne highly compelling if Alpharad and Jaidenanimation's nuzlockes weren't infinitely more popular than all these Jan clones combined

personally, I'm the opposite. I love the pure stats and prep side of it, working out rolls and min maxing teams for the E4. But, I can completely get how someone could prefer the story of it all, and I'm glad that we have both sides available for us all to enjoy and draw as many people as possible to nuzlocking as a whole.

This is why modified vanilla games are the future of Nuzlockes. Eventually, people will figure out how to randomize movesets, typing, and NPC trainers in a way that feels balanced and challenging to reduce the impact of game knowledge. They’ll be able to make gym leaders randomly choose between one out of a possible 3 teams. They’ll be able to put in hard level caps and make wild Pokémon just as strong as yours to make the adventure feel more tense and narratively satisfying, and provide for an excuse to use items. Maybe they’ll set gym leaders 1/2 levels above the level cap, or put together gimmick teams for gym leaders to use that you can plan around without needing hyper specific strategies so more Pokémon get to shine. Maybe they’ll be able to change the crit rate. They’ll find a way to add raid encounters, and overworld bosses, and it’ll all still feel like an experience that’s only as challenging as it needs to be to draw you in. There are a few things I don’t like about nuzlockes narratively. I don’t like how most Pokémon you catch just sit in your pc, because even with no game knowledge, the average person will eventually just catch six good Pokémon and steamroll with them. You can’t go back to regular nuzlockes, but we can move forward and make the right changes to make that same experience possible again.

I feel like that this video makes a lot of sense that there are two kinds of nuzlocks now. The narrative versus the min max while both are challenges the one is about the hourney and the other is about the destination.

You dont know how happy it make me seeing Ttar getting his flowers

Well Mr. Crab, you’ve caught me. I like Jan’s stuff for the challenge but love your idea of a story driven nuzlocke. I would be very interested in watching you run through your favorite Pokémon game hardcore nuzlocke and see these stories develop!

I don't think this is a problem at all. Nuzlockers like pchal made a name for themselves specifically because they were more technical and appealed to the "nerdy" and knowledgeable pokemon fans, thanks to their ability to use niche strats, explain technical details and play interesting and difficult rom hacks. And I am one of those. I preferred watching someone more skilled than me than some guy playing a randomizer and losing pokemon either for content or because they lack basic game knowledge a fan like me would have. And the reason these kinds of channel exploded is likely because there a lot of people like me, who enjoyed this type of content. Don't get me wrong, I don't get a saying on what people must enjoy and I understand your point of view: pchal himself made a video about it, I don't remember how it was called but it was one of his failed attempts in run&bun, where he just keeps going even if the run is litterally dead, creating a very compelling narrative. Also FlygonHG is the best example of what you're looking for, I think he's one of the best in this regard, because he usually has the best of both worlds, the technicality, the skills, the strats, and the narrative.

I've been thinking almost the exact same things for months. One of the biggest things that I dislike is something you only barely mentioned: the rare candies. The grind used to be part of the challenge. Every Nuzlocke video used to have that one early game death due to not paying attention while grinding. It really made you even more invested; you really could lose your friend at any time, even when you thought you were just training. Yeah you could theoretically over-level your Pokemon, but in the end the challenge is supposed to be fun so I never saw anyone actually do so. You had to balance that thought of spending even more time grinding or if you thought you were really good enough to progress. Maybe you spent all your time leveling your starter, but everyone else is under-leveled. It's a risk-reward versus your time investment. Now they all just hack in 999 rare candies and set a level limit. That just cuts out all of the time you spend with your Pokemon, and not just with grinding, but with every other battle until the next Gym. You're playing Red and you level all of your Pokemon to level 29 for Erika's Gym, because that's the level of her Victreebel and Vileplume. As soon as she is beat, you instantly level all of your team to level 40 to match the Silph Co. Rival or to level 43 to match with Koga's Weezing or Sabrina's Alakazam. Every single encounter and trainer on the way to the next gym has been completely biased in your favor, completely negating the challenge. Even the major trainer's other Pokemon are noticeably lower level than every single one of yours. Using rare candies turns an entire game into around two dozen battles. You care about the Gyms, the Elite Four, the Rival, and the Champion. You can literally turn your no-clip cheats on, walk to the next major battle, and cut it out of the video, and nothing would change. Where's the adventure gone

My standout nuzlocke Pokemon was Star the Solrock in Emerald. I named all my encounters after hockey teams, hence the impeccable naming. I brought them along for Winona because I had no other Rock-types, and went into it planning to encore her Swablu and then go for a setup sweep with another Pokemon. I encored it, hit it with Toxic for chip damage...and Winona immediately switched out into Altaria as I went into my setup sweeper. Apparently the AI is smart enough to account for having Natural Cure! So I'm staring down the Dragon Dancing menace with a Pokemon that will get folded by a boosted Earthquake. Enter Star, who was immune to Earthquake, boosted perpendicular to Altaria with Cosmic Power to nullify Dragonbreath and proceeded to tank their way through Winona's entire gym. I was ride or die with Star from then on, and went all the way to the champion with me. Ultimately, Star's journey ended at the finish line. They had learned Explosion just before the Elite Four, and I knew Juan wasn't going to be kind to my floating space rock. Star came in on a Gyarados Earthquake, finished it off with Rock Slide, then came in again on Whiscash's Earthquake. Rock Slide wouldn't do the trick this time, so Star went out in a blaze of glory to secure the win. Godspeed, Star.

The change from "story" to "challenge" probably happened because the well has been tapped dry on story. There's only so many times you can tell stories of sacrifice or heroic garbagemons before it gets old. Nuzlocke stories were first told through webcomics and those had a lot more room for storytelling, drawing a comic as either silly or tragic can drastically change how a story feels even if its technically the same. This differentiation is hard to do if you're relying on gameplay footage. Challenge-focused videos are hypothetically a bottomless well, as long as people keep making difficult fan projects then there will be more fresh content to be made. Obviously I'm just talking in terms of KZfaq popularity; personally I'd much rather play with a scuffed team than try to minmax a game :P

Just let people have fun man, lots of people enjoy hardcore nuzlockes. BTW, who is that description even aimed at? Most nuzlocke content seems to agree you should play with whatever rules you like.

I think tyranitartube's extreme randomizer nuzlocke rom hack playthroughs show how nuzlockes can be special and not a calculated grind, part of the reason extreme is so rewatchable is because of the fact ttar is going into these very tough romhacks blind

I love both styles of nuzlockes personally. I’ve enjoyed the creators who made their nuzlocke into a well written story for a video such as Jaidens videos and Alpharad’s. I also enjoy watching people like RT Game who are doing it for fun and even make certain plays for entertainment but still show off their game knowledge. Then I enjoy the Nuzlockes that Jan and other hardcore players do as I learn a lot about the game and I like seeing how they team build and calculate things even if there is no way I would ever play the game like that.

That intro had me cracking up that's literally every video essay maker every good job

The bigger issue with hardcore nuzlockes is that many romhacked versions of pokemon games are simply far too difficult to play unless you are rigorously min maxed. This naturally leads to a different kind of play experience and viewing experience and cultivates certain kinds of streaming/content creating personalities. There is plenty to be done with the easier games, but, facing the algorithm is a brutal reality. If you aren't good or aren't entertaining, your content is dusted without question. Playing content at a high level gets a lot of people to watch, perhaps a lot of people in the comments might say they're in it for the story, but the metrics probably say something very different. Jan's storytelling for his high level nuzlocke's are also solid work in spite of his being essentially raised by the algorithm for his career start. But few have that luxury unless they are doing things purely as a hobby of passion, and very few follow that path.

I very much prefer nuzlocking without damage calculation, trainer spreadsheets and encounter routing, but it is just a fact that you can't beat those super hard fan games without them. The only substitute is trying over and over until you have memorized everything, which is essentially the same as using those tools. So if you are interested in hardcore nuzlocking a kaizo or kaizo-like game, you can't just use Jim the Blastoise because you like him, you have to use him for his specific niche of blowing up in that one fight. Personally, that doesn't feel like a nuzlocke, but it is undoubtedly popular right now.

I've observed this trend as well, and while I do find it fascinating to listen to someone who just seems to know everything about the game and explains it well, I think the original goal of the Nuzlocke was at least in part to spice the game up by using Pokémon that aren't the best by pure stats, or that you haven't engaged with before. I definitely learned to appreciate some POkémon more after they've come through for me in a challenge. And in these more skill/technically-driven challenges, I often hear "oh this Pokémon is garbage, going to the box/cannon fodder" immediately. Doesn't that kind of defeat part of the original purpose of the challenge?

Another point is that in the modern day of KZfaq you need a semi-unique twist to get views so just uploading a playthrouth with a bit of story is unique and trendy enough to get the views required zo make it your living

ScykohPlays will always have a place in my heart for having, in my opinion, the most enjoyable nuzlocke content, especially the emerald one I cant tell you how many times I've rewatched it

This has gotten me wondering whether or not I should attempt a nuzlocke at some point. Real hardware as well with no cheats or fast-forward. I'll probably still look at movesets though since I can't help it, but just using what the game throws at me is an interesting challenge proposition. The main thing that puts me off is mostly a side effect of being lore half-nerd who goes "ERM, AKSHULLY, THEY ONLY FAINT". I also really don't need to start another concurrent playthrough of FireRed.

I could never do a Nuzlocke because I have never gotten emotionally attached to a fictional character. People say that's the point of Nuzlockes, to get attached to your team.

Damn. I'm surprised. I clicked on this video thinking I would stumble into some gate keepy rant, but no, you're actually a really cool, insightful dude! I do prefer the newer way nuzlockes are handled, but that's because I have calculator brain and like seeing people pull off crazy, tense strategies. I could see a future where challenge-focused nuzlockes fall out of favor though. If it were to happen, I imagine it would be because the fun was completely optimized out of the games. Perhaps then, a new era would come forward. Maybe we'd even get rom hacks that specifically _discourage_ planning things out so much by adding more RNG instead of less. Anyway. Good video, jumping crab man!