You do realize that we're gonna need a full cover of "I'm not a big fan of Paper" now, right?

I remember when I was first getting into "technical" Minecraft. We spent hundreds of hours spawnproofing the nether and building a giant wither skeleton farm only to find out wolves don't even scare wither skeletons on paper... Later found out this is intended behaviour because "path finding causes lag".

'Who controls the default, controls the way we play' I'll definitely remember that

The paper devs also removed the option to re-enable sand duping with the end portal completly, needing a 3rd party plugin all because of "muh exploits" They only begrudgingly let tnt get duped simply because mojang endorses it/they'd get too much hatemail for it

I didn't realize that most of the things that annoy me about building technical farms on public servers in general... are just things that annoy me about paper.

I have a paper trauma ever since I was playing on a minecraft server hosted by a couple of youtubers, and started building a raid farm. I gathered the resources and built the entire thing over the course of a week and then decided to run it. I was very confused when I got bombarded with ravagers and other raid mobs flying all over the place. I spent multiple days trying to find what I did wrong, I ran the schematic verifier multiple times and I found nothing. I asked the server's admin and he told me: "That's strange, we didn't disable raid farming in the settings." Apparently paper calculates entity collisions way different. Since then before I build anything on a server I don't know, I check the version, server type, and mods/plugins of every server I play on.

PSA: Paper is literally just for public servers that want plugins and dont care about vanilla experience. Use fabric servers instead. Even a simple item filter doesn't work on paper

At one point in time, they even had the audacity to write "Vanilla Compatible" or "No-Compromise performance" and "Non-Intrusive and not changing gameplay" or something like that on their front page, I can't remember what exactly but it was not worded in an evasive manner in the slightest. They have since completely updated their website and removed the text, but that's such a scummy way to advertize your software, especially because of it I have had people telling me it's the redstoners fault for not testing their contraption and that it 100% can't be papers fault because of that one line. People genuenly believed and told me in my face that paper is exactly like vanilla but with plugins and does not affect any gameplay. It does. And I'm mad exactly because of that. Paper is not for small SMP servers, fabric or vanilla is, paper is for those big mini-game servers that don't care about vanilla survival minecraft, that already change everything about how the game is played.

I have fond memories of joining a whitelist server called "The Cave" with the intention of building a big underground cave hub at spawn, only to discover TNT dupers are broken.

not to mention the exploits that only exist in paper like being able to clip through blocks because of its ping compensation, ironically giving more exploits to hackers and removing fun "exploits" from normal players

“I turned off all the bugs that enable technical play. Why wont technical players help me find why all the redstone doesnt work?”

I feel like there were many missed opportunities for "works on paper" - puns

Paper is the killer of fun. Back in 2017 I played on a server with some school friends, and the guy who ran the server hosted it in paper. I remember being so excited to make a tnt duper to create a batcave, and being immensely disappointed when it didn't work at all. The worst about paper is not knowing what a POS it is, and trying to play the game normally, only to have a rude awakening 20 hours in and quit immediately because it has sucked all the fun out of a sandbox block game.

Paper is soooo annoying whenever I start a server with my friends I have to delve into the games files to disable all the limitations of paper.

Mojang: As the developers of the game, we're intentionally leaving in TNT duping in the game, because there's no real alternative in many use cases. We'll consider removing TNT duping when we replace the mechanic with viable alternatives that fit with vanilla Minecraft. We understand the value these bugs add to niche communities, and we're working to make sure they stay in the game until we can dedicate more time to improving those areas. Paper devs: We're removing things the primary game developers have patched back into the game, and we're not giving you the choice to turn it back on because "it's not our design goal to make bugs configurable". Our server default is to automatically delete any redstone device capable of running on its own. The technical community is in the wrong for refusing to work with us. It's one thing to say "We don't support technical minecraft builds because they depend on mechanics that can cause slowdowns on multiplayer servers, and our primary target audience is large multiplayer servers. We're intentionally removing vanilla features to maintain stable performance on large servers." But that's not what the Paper devs are doing. They're intentionally breaking vanilla features, and then blaming other people when they don't tell them what's broken. That's insane behavior right there. What's interesting is how many technical things Mojang is adding to the vanilla game. At some point, Paper is just going to be so broken for vanilla minecraft that they have to completely give up, and admit it's only for highly modded servers, where you need compatibility with really old legacy mods. I think this video might be the first step in killing Paper's popularity. Paper doesn't run Minecraft. It runs something vaguely similar to minecraft.

yh i once tried to protect my moss farm using a chunk loader to provide for a safe shutdown in case the player lost connection while afking, only to discover that chunk loaders have been "fixed" and there is no setting to reenable them.

you know what they say! the best way to reduce lag is to just disable all the features until theres nothing to lag the server anymore

Now I know why loads of my builds don't work on servers I play on.

Glad to see someone talking about how pretentious the PaperMC devs are. Gotta love people taking it upon themselves to decide the correct way to play.

It's even less fun as a mapmaker lol. Random commands don't work and you have to figure out why for yourself because Paper sure as hell doesn't know

I knew paper was broken, but never realized how truly broken it was.

I've never felt so much second hand annoyance. I *think* you got your point across quite well.

but does this work on minecraft smart fridge edition!

What drives me crazy is that a lot of people have no idea paper changes gameplay at all when they choose to use it

The thing is, fabric isn't super scalable unless you get into instancing, which is super advanced stuff. I run a pretty large public superflat server, and we need things like TNT duping, raid farms, sand duping, etc due to the superflat limitations. While it can be tricky to get paper to accommodate these features, it's certainly not impossible. Meanwhile, running fabric simply isn't an option when 100 players might be on at once. I think the points you made in this video really only apply to servers with like maximum 40 people playing at any given time. 0-50 players: Just use fabric 50-400 players: Use paper 400+ players: Use fabric with instancing

The most disappointing thing for me in my years of playing Minecraft was playing on paper server and trying tnt duping just to realize it doesn't work AND the server deletes the tnt duping blocks.

Paper is great if you need to run Bukkit API plugins at decent performance. But the fact is, the whole Bukkit ecosystem is absolutely ancient, and breaking vanilla behavior is a default assumption there. So Paper breaking even more vanilla stuff is to be expected.

Showing Edge with “he who controls the default” was spot on

I remember building 6 variations of a furnace array on a Paper server and all of them being broken (Working in vanilla, of course).

As someone who has inherited a paper(purpurmc) server for the community I am part of, I feel this everytime I try to do anything complex with redstone. One day I am going to start on the project to migrate to fabric with trying to find all the alternatives for plugins we use or make my own damn ones

fabric enjoyers just keep on winning

I wanted to build a automatic furnace smeltery using bamboo as fuel, but the hoppers were so slow that the fuel burned before it got replenished by the hopper with new bamboo.

I used to be an admin on a small smp server that ran paper and let me tell you trying to deal with all the weird bugs paper creates is miserable. not to mention reporting these bugs often just gets ignored or worse one of the dev's goes on a psychotic rant because you dared to point out that their code was broken.

Very true. "Optimisations" should not change the default functionality of minecraft

I've been running an SMP server since the start of this year and slowly but surely I'm starting to hate paper with a passion. We don't really have a lot of technical players per say but even the average joe runs into a brick wall when trying to build a storage system or a small perimeter digging machine, besides that half the plugins we install straight up don't work and trying to find a version of it that does work is a wild goose chase. With the release of 1.21 we are switching to fabric. Thank you for pointing this abomination out to the world!

I've been running a pretty casual minecraft server for years on paper. I've always noticed some... interesting... quirks about it but just always worked around them in one way or another. I've tried fabric in the past when I didn't have much server administration experience, and had some issues that I can't even remember now. I think this video is my sign to try to use fabric again. Thanks for making this video.

Remember building a farm on a server and it just didn't work. Went to check redstone to find it didn't pass signals over the chunk boarder......

If you want to play normal multiplayer use the normal server software. You dont need to use spigot or paper. Those have way better perfomance for larger player amounts but need to change/remove features to have a greater perfomance.

My breaking point as a bare-metal server admin with Paper is when the TNT dupers my little group wanted to use still didn't work even after I combed through every single relevant setting. Ended up going straight up the chain to Spigot for the increased plugin support without the Paper-levels of god complex. It would be a fun challenge to write a hyper-optimized version of a Minecraft server with Bukkit plugin support, Carpet levels of "just works," etc. - but obviously not a simple task by any means. One of the few programmers I actively look up to recently mentioned one of his "heh this is stupid but might be fun" ideas: a version of Minecraft which stores game data in an IO-optimized format for Direct Storage off an NVME drive. Then, process as much of the game as possible in paralell, be that with threaded CPU work, Nvidia's CUDA paltform, or some other solution (yes, I realize that this would require careful consideration since Minecraft's processing order is tightly defined and a number of the most awesome contraptions rely on this order).

Really great video! I totally feel your pain and criticism regarding Paper and other server modifying plugins. I also wanted to do technical Minecraft stuff on servers I played on, but plugins intervened ruining my hard work. I really appreciate your video and I hope this gets popular. I wanted to build a automatic furnace smeltery using bamboo as fuel, but the hoppers were so slow that the fuel burned before it got replenished by the hopper with new bamboo. For example, I wanted to build a automatic storage system using droppers that transport items up using a clock. And it worked. But then the next day, the clocks got deleted from the plugin and replaced with signs. After rebuilding it again, it also got replaces with signs.

Yo, guys, you know what would be sick for him to make. Hear me out: orbital cannon using the exploding arrow trick to locate the player and blows up their current location, turning yourself into a nuclear level creeper.

Oh my god, this explains everything. I tried to run a TNT Cobble Generator on a Skyblock server, and I just could not get it to work, and I could not figure out why. It worked on my single-player world, but just would not work on the server.

Paper has always annoyed me. For a server i played with friends on we had paper, and it basically made everything impossible. It was possible to turn tnt and sand duping back on but what annoyed me the most was that chunkloaders do not work at all and can't even be turned on in the config.

Holy shit in glad you pointed out the superiority complex the paper devs have feeling as if theyre in chsrge if everything

I got really excited joining a Skyblock survival game just to find that pistons were disabled.

ah yes, i remember running into that EXACT problem with max TNT processed per tick - that shit blew up an entire duper array i had built on a server, it took a friend and i EONS to determine what was wrong, finally we figured it out and asked the server admin to up the limit but goddamn

I completely agree with most of the things you said. You shouldn't have to adjust configs to be able to play vanilla. and disabling the vanilla functions by default is a big nogo. But for me personally, creating plugins for Paper is much easier/more intuitive than with Fabric. And you don't have to restart the server to adjust a config/install plugins, a reload is usually enough.

Paper is literally a bruteforce to slightly increase the performance

well, speaking as a server runner since 2010, its just bukkit -> spigot -> paper is all we had back then especially during the performance issues days in 1.13 and 1.14, and its gonna take a long time before people start realizing fabric is the way to go. i exclusively use fabric now but i know people are addicted to their bukkit plugins and wont switch without an alternative

I have been saying this for years now, but no one believed me. Thanks for making this video so I don't have to spend hours arguing!

man i'll never forget the times when all i had to do to make a server was install the forge server files and run the server

Some in the comments are missing the point cubic is making when bellyaching about having to deal with server mechanics (even basic ones like not being able to delete the world files until you shut the server down). The point is that in order to do any testing of builds on Paper, he'd HAVE to set up a server, as he doesn't have the option to do it in true single player like he normally would. Meaning that in order to adequately respond to the high volume of comments he gets asking about making things that work on Paper (the starting point of the whole video), he would have to go through that process every time for even basic testing, never mind complex troubleshooting, and for him that's just an unnecessary hassle that wouldn't be worth it. And while Paper may have its place for servers with player numbers in the triple digits and a focus on plugin-based minigames and PVP, and may edge out Fabric servers on performance and features in those use cases, its ubiquity means server owners clearly often end up using it when it's not necessary or even optimal, leading to frequent confusion and frustration from players trying to do complex redstone things and finding they can't make them work because the defaults and under-the-hood changes are so destructive (just look at this comment section).

Preaching to the choir, mate xD Ran a paper server for my friends for a few weeks because I heard it has good performance, discovered that enabling sand duping isn't a config option, never run a paper server since.

I absolutely hate how I can't make anything in paper servers not even basic dupers are allowed

as an fabric mod developer, i say that server-side mod > bukkit plugin

I can answer the controller question : I use gyroscope aiming ! Sticks are terrible for aiming, but with gyroscope I’m as precise as with a mouse ! And I can instantly turn to any direction that’s a little too far thank to flick stick. I wouldn’t recommend it for filming videos though. The movement can be pretty nauseating when you’re not the one driving it.

Once i was playing minecraft together with my friend, and i built a completely automatic woodfarm. But the tnt duper didnt work and me and my friend spent hours trying to fix that. Meanwhile, we also spend hours trying to break bedrock on the nether roof. Now i know it was probably a paper server. Thank you, now i will check that first bevor building huge farms

I played on a server for a while, and as I started getting into the midgame and building farms, things kept breaking. Not just redstone either, entities disappearing and villagers freezing their AI. The community was very pleasant, but I ended up quitting because the actual gameplay was miserable. I'm not even that technical of a player, I just like it when basic machines work consistently. After seeing this video, I bet the server was using paper or something similar.

We inlcuded a mail sorting system into one of our projects that allows you to rename pieces of paper to send a shulker box to a specific location inside the build. Only problem is: Paper ""optimizes"" the game by removing one of the default item tags, RepairCost to be exact. So if you rename an item on a vanilla world and then try to stack it with one created on a paper server, killing any kind of sorting system that relies on renamed items. We had tons of people complain about the system not working while on our server it would just work fine. And while I get that the repair cost of an item with no durability is completely pointless, it still seems like a massive oversight by the devs.

20:30 I can whole heartedly say that even to those like me who understand very little about redstone, the community providing breakthroughs over and over in the same system which hardly gets updated( ok it gets updated but you get the point) leaves us speechless. Redstone is the most dynamic system in minecraft, and is on par with building atleast imo.

My friend opened a server for a couple people before and by default the server host has paper installed and I had to ask my friend to change so many settings because everything I like to do the paper devs disabled. I like building farms, going on top of the nether, making block dupe contraptions and none of these work by default. Sure these are fine as options for big servers but they shouldn't be the default settings. I hate pretty much any mod that nerfs or "fixes" or generally just changes anything about the base game that I like, which happens to be a pretty big problem with minecraft and terraria mods.

As someone who plays a bunch of technical Minecraft on Paper, I agree some things are annoying or bad, but some things in the video are simply uninformed. The thing that makes Paper technical Minecraft interesting is exactly the fact it is different from vanilla, and therefore provides a unique challenge where the dominant solution is not to Google the most efficient farm all the time. As for the issues mentioned in the video: Testing: The way you do is using async world edit with the stack/copy command. That allows you to make as many copies for testing as you want and is not really any worse than Litematica pasting. As for Litematica pasting, you can simply disable the limit; it is still slow, though. You can also use Multiverse to simply import worlds on the fly. You can also rather easily write your own plugins if you really need something. Settings: While a lot of technical redstoners like the bugs existing and the TNT amount being not limited, a lot of public server hosts do prefer those to be off. Either for performance reasons or because they have other ways implemented to do that, or simply because 99% of Minecraft players do not care about those. These being on by default and sand duping not being an option is stupid, though, I agree. To carpet: Yes, that makes testing really annoying; there are a lot of workarounds, though. Disabling explosions: You do that with CoreProtect. One of the most well-known and front and center plugins. Really don't see how that is hard to find. Also, search for plugins on Spigot, not Hangar. That site has little plugins and basically no one uses it. As for separate world files: Paper automatically extracts the Nether/End from vanilla files when you don't forget to delete the Nether. Random stuff being broken: Yes, that is really annoying. Paper is fundamentally broken: So is vanilla. Just in different ways. That really only is a matter of different designs, not one being worse. Mass crafting: It works perfectly normal craft fix item scroller. And the rate limit can be changed. It is not an issue, though, even if you don't. Mob switch: They do work. Probably some stuff with simulation distance settings. As for cutting content for performance: This is simply a wrong point. Most servers do not need most vanilla stuff. OMG, imagine a PvP minigame server on which an orbital strike cannon doesn't work. What a horrible tragedy /s. And no, getting a nuke dropped on you in faction is not "a strong motivator to learn about TNT physics" but simply ruining the game for most people. I do like to do technical stuff in Minecraft, but I am not arrogant enough to think everyone does. Most people simply don't want to. Not because of Paper or disabling features but simply because they don't want to. They wanna do PvP or just build stuff. And that is totally fine. The redstone community IS a vocal minority. And even more annoyingly, it is an elitist one which will laugh at anyone who does stuff not the exact way they think is right. Which is just as annoying as Paper's attitude on bugs. And world eaters do work... And the stuff you mentioned here has nothing to do with Paper. In general, most stuff does work as long as it is modified correspondingly. And that is what makes doing technical Minecraft on Paper so much more fun. It is like 2010 redstone. You just gotta figure everything out on your own and make your own stuff. The extremely advanced state of redstone makes it extremely boring for people who do not do KZfaq redstone stuff full time because whatever you make, there is probably something 10x better by some redstone KZfaqr or some Chinese guy on Bilibili. And no, Fabric in any way, shape, or form comparable to plugins. Plugins are interversion compatible and way faster to develop. It is more than reasonable for a small SMP server to have some custom plugins. While with mods needing updating every minor version and the added effort, it is simply not feasible. And those additional things often matter more than some crazy redstone stuff working. And sorry, but if anyone says Fabric is easier to work with than the Spigot API, they are simply so used to it that they can't judge this properly. I developed for both, and plugins are many times easier and faster to write. Admittedly only in the limits of the API, while NMS modifications are a nightmare, but it does most. Managing a public server without a plugin is simply a nightmare. And not at all possible for small SMPs who don't have dedicated developers. Hence, pretty much all public Minecraft servers running it. People can say how much it sucks a lot if they never done that.

let’s not also forget that the paper owners actively hire and encourage the doxxing and ddosing of people that find crashes and dupes on paper. i’ve personally talked with them over their “”fixes”” and holy shit do they act like THE GODS OF MINECRAFT SERVERS. i cant even begin to describe the amount of bullshitting they do.

Thanks for you video and I hope you don't take my comment too personal, I admit it is quite confrontational - but I hope the feedback can still be of use in some shape or another. And I want to preface it to say that I 100% understand being sick of getting the "it no work in spigot" comments and questions - and that this has likely colored the video a fair bit. Either way these are some of things I reacted to while watching you video. The whole segment about deleting the world file while the server is running is probably meant as a workflow thing, where it takes time to "reset", but I find it to be a pretty contrived example, and it's not at all paper exclusive. You would have the same issues with a vanilla server. Having to make workflow adjustments to fit multiplayer isn't a "problem" it's just different. There are likely to be solutions (in this case a worldedit snapshot) that would work just as well. This somewhat applies to the litematica pasting as well. Your modded client _is_ sending a lot of packets, and this is a valid concern for a server that serves potentially untrusted users to have. Using a serverside mod like worldedit to paste your schematic would work here, and is also largely what is happening in a single player world. I don't know if you couldn't get the same problem with an unmodded vanilla minecraft server. Another point here is that you find it obvious that carpetmod can disable explosions, and that you cant find a plugin that does something similar. Firstly a quick google search of "disable tnt explosions bukkit" leads to multiple candidates, wheras finding a solution for vanillla minecraft without already knowing about carpetmod is comparatively similar in difficulty to what you describe. I'd also argue that in the same way you find carpetmods functionality obvious, someone with any bukkit experience would find it obvious that worldguard has this feature (toggleable per region!). WorldGuard being the go-to world protection/anti-griefing plugin. So again this point is an adjustment of workflow or a point mostly about your ignorance of the ecosystem. (This was unfair, see EDIT 1) You keep making a point about restarting the server and calling it "excrutiating", aside from the fact that you might have been able to get away with a /paper reload (I don't know), this sounds so whiny. It takes what 2 seconds? You never have to reload a world in singleplayer? The whole three folders for the three levels is a common complaint but paper actually converts normal worlds into this split level folder structure automatically (unless of course these regions already exist - like if you start the server, generate a new world, then replace the overworld with your vanilla save) "realize we dont have creative noclip" - again a workflow thing that peppers the video with negativity. Though I admit I do not have a readily available alternative for you. Maybe binding a tp switch world to a worldedit tool in this specific case - but that's not really something that encompasses everything you can do with noclip. The gamerule is a real difference and something I would consider a bug as well. Some sleuthing leads me to believe the issue manifests differently on spigot and paper, and also that the vanilla rule is kind of poorly defined - with bug reports about how it also having the sideeffect of not loading chunks being open on the minecraft issue tracker for some time. The feigned awe and surprise at paper implementing a vanilla minecraft feature is again just poor taste imo. We've had tickwarps in bukkit before, back in the forge days with forgebukkit and some tickwarp sleeping mods. It's not up to paper to make technical minecraft tools, it's clearly out of scope and that's fine. It's great that minecraft has it in the base game now. The actual content here - showing how paper differs, trying to find out why and even changing the config files to try work around its limitation is very valuable - and information about this is something a large part of the causal viewerbase probably needs. Server operators should be taking the technichal minecraft compat issues into account when picking their solution! Sometimes for some playerbases the tradeoffs are worth it. An apt example is the mob switch you show off. Paper's mob spawning algorithm is different, and sure it breaks mob switches, maybe even the shulker farm is affected. But the tradeoff is a more uniform and subjectively "fair" mob spawning experience for players. A single mobfarm can't monopolise all the alloted slots and so on. This is a completely valid feature a server operator could want. Even when things break it's almost always the kinds of things that live on the edge of what is possible with redstone, or things that rely on tight timings. The comparison is really more like paper/spigot being a third edition of minecraft that is very similar to java edition and one shouldn't expect technical builds to transfer 1:1 without any adjustments. This is again not an issue for many servers out there because they build their own farms on the server from the start, or don't build that many farms. Autocrafting macros not working as in vanilla is pretty unexpected (aide from ratelimiting), but again this is such a specific example - which many playerbases would even frown upon as something cheating adjacent. So this is not really a downside for many. That being said you are right: paper is an outdated recommendation to make to people who wants a simple vanilla-esque server - fabric performance mods, serverside utlity mods, and even vanilla datapacks can replace really most of paper and the plugins such a server needs. Yet paper is still recommended all the time (maybe because it's not that many years since it was essentially the only possible option for an ok experience - the 1.1.4 - 1.17 era was rough with for example the fish pathfinding and slow chunkloading). Paper's changes have been made for a reason, most of the time lag, often for anticheat, sometimes for plugin-capabilities, and sometimes for just someone's opinion and subjective "bugsmashing". Pretending this is some kind of malice isnt very productive or fair I think. All in all I think papers downsides speak enough for itself, especially in modern times where fabric mods provide a much better alternative. But I think the video could get that across without making some of the workflow complaints and a more neutral tone. I don't think I can really send this video to someone who knows a lot about bukkit and have them convinced their decision is wrong. Because they will see through the points that are more subjective and that sows doubt about your statements in the rest of the video. The second part is much better regarding this. But is still largely just looking at 1:1 ports of builds. There are ideas here like there probably being room for differences in redstone interactions like what you find in bedrock, MCHPRS, vanilla, vs spigot and paper, but also to some degree just differences in minecraft versions. Builds always have to be adjusted and made for each flavor, and that's fine. It's also fine to only play certain flavors. but again describing these differences as "hostile" is something I can't necessarily entirely agree with. I certainly also prefer the vanilla flavor, but technical minecraft players are _very_ hard to please since we depend on a much larger and much more detailed set of features. For servers with custom server-resource packs we don't really see the same complaints from builders having to make adjustments to their palettes (though this isnt nearly as prevalent as paper - so that might also be why). In a similar vein I think technical minecraft players who play on paper servers can also largely adapt to the different rules, you just can't copy and paste a design from someone else (something that might even be good! - but that's a whole other discussion). Maybe it would be nice if the video had a "designing something in paper vs desigining something in vanilla" part for a look at the differences here. Just an idea. Again thanks for the video and the opportunity for this discussion EDIT 1: I see you've now responded that world guard explosion protection deletes the tnt before explosion, so that explains that

paper got absolutely murdered lets go

So THIS is why my redstoning experience on servers has been so god damn awful! I don't really play on servers nowadays cause almost every server I've tried to join has just broken all my redstone builds. I remember one particularly bad experience on EarthMC. I was an employee at a redstone engineering company that made farms and stuff for players around the server. I would spend hours creating the right contraption for the job, only to import it and have everything break. Hopper timers would be so inconsistent, repeater clocks would just break, and so many bizarre little bugs would make me have to design the entire thing in server. The entire company eventually broke up cause all the engineers got fed up with the server mechanics. So sad such an integral part of the minecraft community gets shafted by most servers.

A year or so ago, I ran a months-long campaign to switch our server from Paper to Fabric. When we finally made the change, not only did my redstone work better, but the entire server somehow ran SMOOTHER than it did on Paper! PAPER, YOU HAD ONE JOB!!

yeah i play on a server that uses a bukkit/paper fork called pufferfish and im just afraid to even attempt any kind of technical build. at least i get to enjoy being a builder instead

EssentialsX((Either the core mod or the Protect addition. Don't remember)) can disable TNT Block Damage, but that's not an excuse for whatever the fuck the Paper Devs are thinking

I hate paper so much. I play on this small community server with friends and they are like "can we make a ... farm" and im like nah, server is paper can't do it

As a public server owner that can't develop mods/plugins, it feels like paper is mandatory since almost no plugin got a fabric equivalent. But yeah it took (and still takes) hours to debug which default settings is breaking a core mechanic of the game..

And if you've ever played around with vanilla command creations, they have some of the same issues on highly degraded server software such as Paper as well.

A while ago, before the change to iron farms, I built an auto-resseting iron farm which stacked 128 villages, color me surprised when it didn't work.

The explanation is simple: people like to have stuff "ready to use", so paper have all the anti-griefing features and plugins easy to put and use. Of course when you are a technical player you have the experience ruined but if you are a technical player you don't use paper because your technical knowledge tells you to not using it. Paper developers like to leave it like that because it is the only way to succeed, otherwise people would just use fabric. Fabric on the other hand should provide a "easy-antigriefing" version with all the stuff like tnt-duping or else already disabled by default.

There are 3 flavors of Minecraft: Java Edition, Bedrock Edition and Paper Edition.

Thank you so much for making this video. It confirms so many things I had doubts on.

western world when the chinese invent paper:

The issue with servers going against technical gameplay is that the common player doesn't optimize their builds. In 2017, DieBuddiesZocken did a collab with PitForge, their first money farm was sugar cane, but then they started to make fully automatic cacti farms, and their fans copied them, of course. This led to the overabundance of cacti farms on all servers. (but most of all on the server they played on) They even visited bases of others and encouraged them to build bigger. The result of their actions: lag as far as the eye can see. And they couldn't tell that cacti farms were the cause, as the money from them was too great to acknowledge fault. But rescue came from other servers, they together farmed up at least 20 creeper spawn eggs, got inside their base, and not only raided them, but griefed their base. This devastated the KZfaqrs, they quit on the same day they found their base in shambles. The lag declined after 2 weeks, and so did their moderation of the whole server.

Thank you for this video! Especially the section on how performance can be even better with a fabric server than paper. Convinced me to swap my server over to fabric

So the australia shaped chesthair was a Saxton Hale reference, epic tf2 lore moment.

Your summary toward the end is reminiscent of a video I remember titled "what went wrong with gaming", about all the ways free to play/pay to win systems evolved to make games more anti-consumer.

Been watching for a while man, keep up the good work! Love the new style of content with more humor

This is wild. They take the approach of "let's disable features to save performance" rather than "let's optimize features without changing them". The one exception to this is their light optimization, which was then ported to a fabric mod called starlight!

That makes sense. Both of the servers I play on don't use Paper, one is vanilla, and one is a heavily modded Forge server. At this point, I'm a technical player, mostly due to computer science courses changing how I play the game, just with nowhere near your level of understanding of Minecraft mechanics.

Yeah i think paper really is stupid fast. Expect without the fast.

Hearing the phrase "making a server more featureless" reminded me of a server called Autcraft I used to play on. Namely, they disabled End City generation, and had an anti-griefing mechanism of making it so that you can't even PLACE tnt. (I know because I was going to go caving for netherite)

i've hosted many servers on paper and this video honestly changed my perspective on server hosting. i don't think i'll ever use paper again... didn't know it was this bad

Well not stopign the server to delete world and not restarting server to apply changes is pure skill issue.

Used spigot and paper for years as a private hosting provider, im far from a technical player and yeah, its hot garbage, configuration is messy, restart command breaks the server because plugin devs are childish (looking at you viaversion and essentials), world save management, backups and applying new config, plugins or even datapacks is enormously tedious and annoying to work with. If at all, they have barely reached out. Game bugs should be configurable unlike the devs comment.. if they use an open source fork then they should also be looking for ways to fix the bugs...

4:20 'Who controls the default, controls the way we play' *he said while his OS denied him to delete files*

I once installed Paper for my server on a raspberry pi. After some playtime, I blew up by an invisible creeper, along other weird stuff going on. Never installed Paper again.

I spent 6 years playing on a paper server, and I had to resort to using private explois and workarounds (like how it was on 1.12.2 and thus didn't receive modern patches), but then it updated and was made even worse than I would have ever imagined.

I make a server with friends every year and we had been using paper for a while but as we got better at the game we started noticing a lot of broken game mechanics. A simple hopper arrangement or dropper elevator just don't work. I lost my mind trying to build them. It was just random when they worked and when they didn't. Stopped playing because of it. Never going to use it again. Already started to make a fabric mod list. Ty for making this video. It's just pain playing on paper.

3:16 at risk from lag? tnt dupers generate a lot of entities basically endlessly. disabling them allows server operators to not have to care about that (it also makes griefing easier). it _is_ kind of dumb that the options are "unsupported" tho; imo whether something like that is enabled or disabled on a given server should be up to the server operator, not the server developer. let people run servers the way that they want. I'd argue that disabling tnt duplication by default is probably bad (since Mojang officially supports it "temporarily"), but some of the other piston duplications are marked and confirmed as bugs. 4:05 you can disable the packet rate limit in the config. also, you could paste the schematic using w/e instead of using litematica. it's not that hard 4:16 why would you think leaving the game means that the server stops running??? the point of a server is that anyone can join while it's running; as well as that the world can't just be unloaded (thereby allowing you to modify/delete it) when nobody's on because it still needs to simulate spawn chunks. 5:12 this isn't really a paper problem; with the bukkit API someone could come along and make a plugin similar to carpet for spigot, but it seems that nobody has yet. can you really blame paper for not supporting features that don't exist in vanilla? 5:40 paper works with spigot (and any other bukkit fork) plugins (it _does_ have it's own api but I have yet to come across a plugin that actually uses it; they all just use the bukkit API). a 5-second duckduckgo search for "spigot disable tnt explosion" comes up with this plugin called "explock" which does exactly that. *it's not that hard* 5:48 just to clarify this is also the default in a vanilla mc server (I'm sure cubicmetre knows this since they've probably used a vanilla server, but that's mostly to people reading this comment) 6:50 again, for most servers, they ideally want to minimize lag. especially for paper, which is meant to be a "high-performance fork" of spigot. this is generally more important for most servers than technical accuracy. 8:11 this is a default vanilla mc server thing too. don't blame paper/spigot for this. 8:57 actually good criticism; this is a bug that's been there since 2021 (see PaperMC issue #6657). I don't know why they haven't gotten around to fixing it by now. 11:18 it should be noted that paper sacrifices technical accuracy for performance (which matters, since mc servers are way more fucking resource expensive than they should be). for most players and server operators, this is a worthwhile tradeoff. if you want technical accuracy, maybe try a different bukkit fork, a fabric server, or just use the vanilla mc server. you're using a hammer to put in a screw and then complaining that it doesn't work. use the right tool for the job. 16:02 yeah I'm not sure what the issue is here. I don't know enough about paper internally operates. Maybe the bukkit API is less efficient than the fabric one? If that is the problem, I'm not sure there's much paper can do about it since the bukkit API is the standard. Also, you're comparing a server with a bunch of optimization mods to a more-or-less default installation of paper. I'm not sure if this nullifies your point or not, but you should at least try to see what the best performance you can get with paper is. 17:08 again, you can just change or disable the packet rate limit in the config. 18:49 I already said this, but paper is just not meant for technical players. You've already mentioned the fabric server, just keep using that. different servers are for different people. That's why we have different servers!

You're my favourite MC content creator. I'm so sick of creators pandering to 13 year olds. As a 20yr doing a Bsc you are just the best!

This was one of the funnier videos, different from all the red stone contraptions. Nice vid👍

Oké, i absolutely didn’t know you could join a server which has mods on vannila.. I’m going to try to switch my server to fabric too, also becease of the better server optimisation you showed. Thanks cubic 🎉

But what about carboard?

and hey - thank you for the modlist. you’ve made technical minecraft more accessible to at least one other person! keep up the great work you do to make technical minecraft interesting and accessible! i appreciate it :)

Thanks for making this video, I'm def changing my friend group's server to Fabric