the whole smash community is learning why tf eggman got so pressed over a blue hedgehog.

Fun Fact, Sonic walk faster (1.444) that Ganondorf can run (1.34)

What i hate is that out of all the cast, the timeout character had to be Sonic. It feels so counterintuitive to his canon.

Seriously I agree with Tweek, when I watch sonic, the only thing that comes to my mind is "how the hell do you lose with this character" he seems unbeatable sometimes

What's crazy is that Sonic truely didnt pop off untill the wifi wars during covid. Once people picked him up, they couldnt put him back down. Bro was given an inch and TOOK A MILE

I find Sonic an interesting case. In most multiplayer games, hypermobility is frustrating, since it allows for virtually free positioning and the ability to just overwhelm your opponent while remaining virtually untouchable themselves. They make sure they do EVERYTHING before you can do anything. Sonic, on the other hand, doesn't infuriate you because there's nothing you can do if your counterplay just cannot combat the sheer speed of your opponent. Instead, he bores you to death by making sure NOTHING happens, which as unhealthy as it is, it's honestly a cool twist on hypermobility being complete and utter bullshit.

If this video has taught me anything, it is that Sonic is actually a scary three foot nightmare and Eggman is right to be so chuffed about him.

It's really interesting seeing a video essay about Sonic's revilement in Smash that is less from the perspective of a Sonic fan and more from the perspective of a Smash competitor.

I laughed so hard when i saw leo time sonix out twice in a single set, king of adaptation

I think aggressive sonic is incredibly fun to watch, but you never see anyone play him like that because camping is ultimately the optimal strategy. If Nintendo tweaked Sonic just a bit, they could really Impact his playstyle for the better. (Also yes I’m a sonic main)

I distinctly remember an elite smash match where I was going against a sonic. As it happened, I was playing villager. From the beginning, I could tell that they wanted me to approach and were waiting for a slip up. However, I inside sat at the other end of the stage spamming projectiles the entire match. It was more of a test of patience than an actual fight. The 8 minute timer was exhausted easily.

The Sonic games are very rich with content like power-ups. It just baffles me why they wouldn't give him a more imaginative move-set now.

Think with all the advantages Sonic has the thing is it looks to me that he's exhausting to play as because you got to be making way more decisions per interaction than almost every other character and similar to Shulk the player can lose control when they are thinking too far in advance.

It sucks so much. I understand why Sonic is the way he is... in BRAWL. He was a rush job because Sega had initially declined Sakurai's request to put him in, only for them to change their mind at the last minute. I understand why his moveset doesn't seem like what it should be and more or less just did "Classic Sonic but he has Virtua-Fighter/Sonic the Fighters inspiration in his moves". But like Ganon and the 64 cast, Sonic falls victim to the Smash team's refusal to make any meaningful changes to veterans. I understand not wanting to alienate people who like how that character plays/are used to, but that doesn't lead to a healthy representation of their source material, relevance to their most recent interpretations, or balance. Sonic especially suffers from the latter. Sonic was fine in Brawl because running away and camping wasn't nearly as viable of an option as it was in 4 and Ult, and with his kill power being severely lacking, it meant he HAD to go in if he wanted to actually close out stocks. The changes to the games after Brawl over corrected those issues.

0:28 “The Notorious D.L.C.” would actually be a really great tag for a Steve/Kazuya/Aegis main terrorizing their locals.

Sonic is a weird character to me because my opinion of his players changes depending on the setting. If I lose to a campy sonic in a friendly match, it’s so frustrating because it gives off the impression that they’re just tryharding to an insane degree. But, on the other hand, if I lose to a campy sonic in bracket, I can’t help but feel like I just got outplayed.

13:47 lemme say something here Sonic does indeed dance, the thing about it tho is that the stage is only his and the opponent is just a spectator, sometimes chosen by the dancer to get on stage for a couple seconds He dances around you while you watch and stay still

My personal take on Sonic as a character is that he - just like many other characters - are not seen as a "fun character." Every once in a while a video pops up reworking a character and everyone talks about Sonic. His moveset has so much potential and it is squandered by whatever mess he currently has. In my eyes, he has wasted potential and in return I have to watch it for 30 minutes in one set.

I just picked up Sonic because I'm getting bored and I got to say, more rage quits than I've ever seen in my life. He's obnoxious and I'm the one playing him

Imagine if Sonic had a special mechanics where his matches are considered "races" and if the clock goes to 0 you automatically lose.

After months of seeing Sonix in LV SSBU tourneys, I played vs. him in tourney bracket. With just several minutes talking to him, IMO he’s one of the friendliest top players I’ve met. A stark contrast of his main Sonic who’s annoying to play vs. I’m usually shy talking to new people but for friendlies, it’s different.

Man. Imagine if spin dashes couldn't pass through shields. Like why can that pass through but not falco/fox's side B????

In a competitive standpoint I feel like Sonic’s biggest problem is how heavily skewed the stagelist and the timer work for him, because Sonic while he can camp, he typically forces a more cautious playstyle and having a 7 minute timer doesn’t help much especially when smash sets in general can be long with or without him. The stages also generally encourage more defensive gameplay as well. Imo Sonic has weaknesses people don’t even take advantage of enough as while Sonic can run away he still has to commit to the corner which is still a fundamental disadvantage as combined with his light weight and combo food Sonic can die rather easily.

It's a weird idea, but one thing I think would make Sonic less frustrating is an uncancelled auto-taunt mechanic if he fails to deal a lot of damage, similarly to how Sonic taps his foot if you aren't moving in the original game.

I feel pretty bad for Sonic tbh. Such a cool character with wasted potential with Combos and such. 😔

At least sonix is a nice guy.

Snake knew he was going to be a nuicance in the near future, but we didn't figure it out until it was too late.

The thing that I struggle to think up is how can Sonic be fixed? He's the fastest thing alive so keeping his top notch mobility has to be a must. If Sonic got discouraged from using his speed for camping and instead used it to be as hyperaggressive as someone like Roy or Fox then he'd be hype as hell in my opinion. The thing I can't figure out is the how

Man, imagine how hype high-level Sonic plays would be if Sakurai gave him a moveset

I like these videos, you break down these topics in an interesting and insightful way

To be honest, I don't think Sonic is a poorly designes character. I think he's a victim of very unfortunate emergent gameplay. The way you can combo moves out of Spin Dash and Spin Charge to me hints that he was designed to be a rushdown combo character, but players just found a more optimal unintended strategy that Sakurai and his team never got to patch either by a lack of time, priorities or maybe even both.

Sonic wouldn't be nearly as bad if tournaments decided to let sudden death play out instead of awarding the win to whomever has the percent lead at the end of a game with tied stocks. It would force him to take risks and win by a convincing margin and mostly eliminate the degenerate "optimal" way of playing the character. It's a ruleset problem

People overlook how hype sonix can be when it’s beneficial to him, if you need an example of this just watch sonix-light at genesis

I’m a Sonic player. I love to use him. I basically never use Spindash or Spincharge, solely because I’m worried I will upset my opponent, even online… But it’s a paradox, because I genuinely am competitive, and want to win very badly. With that said, my playstyle is very aggressive with pretty much every single character that I use. My main is Greninja after all lol, it’s an instinct if it isn’t just what I prefer to do. I like to fight, not play tag. There has to be something that can be done to make Sonic less annoying to opponents if they ever make a Smash 6… And even if they just continue to port Ultimate, which I would personally prefer, surely they can update him to discourage people from avoiding, you know… fighting. Nothing makes me sadder in this game than making my opponent upset. I want them to have as good of a time as me. I get depressed when I see them ragequit… It isn’t that I do too badly without Spindash either, as I’m around the 9,000,000 GSP range with him despite basically not having a Down Special or Side Special. I only use it for recovery. Now if only Homing Attack wasn’t such a cool move… ;~; But with that said, I just really do like his character… One big nerf I would make, is where my opponent can heavily punish me if I were to Spindash their shield. I think it’s cool that Sonic can go though them, but it also feels unfair to be totally honest… Still, I love the blue blur so very much 💙💙💙 Whenever I start a match, my opening line to my opponent is usually, “Close range only!” :3

Eggman is feeling both vindication and PTSD.

I always hated time out as a win condition, and Zero did it ALOT during smash 4 and ultimate.

You know what my problem with Sonic is? HE DOESN'T LOSE RINGS WHEN HE GETS K.O'd!

I would say that while visually his moveset is rather plain, his mechanics are deceptively deadly. He’s an All-Rounder in terms of power, but the speed of a monster. Honestly, he should only have one Spin Dash move overall, but have it in the air as the Drop Dash with different properties. His Forward B could almost be anything. I will say that he should be a bit lighter though as a drawback for his speed, like a light- middleweight if that makes sense. Either way, dude is my favorite character ever, and should he make it in the next game I look forward to his sick Frontiers combo game. XD

With the release of frontiers, Nintendo has a gigantic pool list to choose from when creating his character. While spin dash has to be one of his side, they can nerf that and up everything else because sonic has always been a confrontational person. He goes up to his enemies face. He’s no slouch in fight fights and combat as seen in frontiers and his very few games that depicts his combat prowesss. It’s strange how running is his best strat in smash. It’s so out of character

Another thing I want to bring up is Sonic’s considerable lag when he whiffs Most of his moves do have considerable endlag while moves like Spin Dash and Spin charge are much safer considering they can reliable travels through shields making them very safe and the only move in the entire game to be positive on parry I would say Sonic’s Hypermobility combined with less rush down intended moves as his moves have below average end lag also adds to Sonic’s campy play style Now I do think Sonic can be a Hyperaggressive and Hypermobile character without being to campy while still being good and most of the are tied to his lackluster moveset

Seems like adding items would solve this problem.

My brother plays a very aggressive Sonic so I hadn't had to face a defensive Sonic often. I think a moveset rework will fix his issue such as making a Fox/Falco Side-B for him would probably fix his running away issue as it forces an approach.

Sonic is my main (because) he is my favorite VG character. Here’s the problem with Sonic. He needs a “core” overhaul. As in the moveset, physics, everything. His speed is fine, it’s when you combine it with other aspects of fighting games like camping that there is a problem. He needs to be the poster character for “get in that ass” and should probably have some kind of gimmick that reflects that (like maybe a slow starting speed that builds up with momentum?)

Even tho sonic doesn't really need a nerf it needs a tweak to. Make him do more more dmg or at least to buff his offensive gameplay and lower his hyper mobility but not too much,

W Music choices at the beginning *I love Dragon Dance soooo much*

Yeah. Coming from melee and starting Ult when it came out and encountering a wifi Sonic that just spammed spin dash and the homing attack, I was shocked by how safe those were. I played some Brawl, I knew how Sonic worked from that, but what were they thinking making these burst speed options ultra safe? Again, coming from melee and encountering a b spamming character and I struggled to land a hit was infuriating. I knew it was particularly wifi, but I called BS on Sonic in Ult day one.

I've loved sonic since i was a kid, he'd probably be my main if i didn't prefer characters with at least 1 projectile, still i might pick him up as a secondary after watching this

The reason why Sonic has a terrible moveset in Smash is because Nintendo and Sega are rivals.

Vars you are the truth. Your content is so spot on and describes things that people have a sense of but can’t quite describe it right

Big sonic player here. I personally love aggressive sonic but I think I got more hate comments against me than people praising me just because I play sonic. It's either me constant aggressive whiff punishes "sonic is too fast" or camp the player out "sonic is too fast". Same response and nobody is happy just because I picked a Blue Hedgehog who I grew up watching cartoons and playing his games.

I find it to be a really interesting game design question. Let’s say you were designing Sonic from the ground up, and let’s say him having the best mobility in the game by a country mile is non-negotiable. How would you design a character that, rather than bringing every match to time, is designed to finish each match (win or lose) as quickly as possible? You can cause extreme differences in his advantage and disadvantage states, like give Sonic insane combos and make him the game’s worst combo food so that one hit either way decides the stock. But then, is that really better? That just leads to super cautious play to avoid being the first one hit…

I feel that Sonic, out of every character, is the best representation of a character's actual canon when translated to Smash. An annoying gnat no one can kill because he's too damn fast...

I feel like there could be a mechanic unique to Sonic that would help alleviate this problem. Sonic is a character that loves speed and action together. Add a mechanic that reduces his speed by a significant margin if you go too long without dealing a certain amount of percent damage or securing a kill. This would promote using his rushdown speed to actually rushdown the opponent and prevent camping others out. If you spend too much time camping and get your speed cut by even like 10%, it would make you more vulnerable and easier to be punished for being too scared to take advantage of his speed in the right way. Think of it as a reverse comeback mechanic. Could even be a progressive and linear reduction becoming more drastic the longer you go without fighting.

There's no problem with Sonic. We are all simply bad at the matchup

What’s stands out to me about this video is that this person just confirmed that Sonix is literally holding back.

What’s the mod in the background of the stage at 5:25

I love Sonic in Smash. XD I love watching Sonix win and people crying. I play Mega Man, Belmonts and Sonic to annoy everyone.

11:29 Anyone has suggestions on how to prevent Sonic from discouraging Interaction (Or What If Suggestions)?

Sonic and Steven really do an amazing job speaking to their singleplayer gameplay styles. Sonic is all about speed, hit and run, and dodging, and I think the best way to capture that is actually giving him many options in his movement rather than just being fast (something the games could actually stand to do more). Minecraft has poor combat mechanics, but combat can be fun because of placing blocks and mining while running away to cheese and building structures to counter bosses. These mechanics both revolve around the idea of making full use of one's superior autonomy to defeat an enemy who has more bodies/stats. I bet a no spirits World of Light Sonic only run would be cool. Playing against him, well no one likes having less autonomy.

I think the best way of dealing with this would be to redefine the timeout itself. Instead of awarding the win to the player with the most health when the time runs out, the game could award or deduct "style points" based on certain playstyle choices; for instance spending too much time moving away from an enemy could deduct points, and style points are taken into account when determining who wins. This could be applicable for a large number of fighting games, not just Smash.

Captain Falcon main here. I find it best to simply wall out Sonic with stale fairs and back-airs, and also apply "wall pressure" with nairs. Let him run into your fists. And if he doesn't, mix it up with a grab attempt at irregular intervals. Any sliver of pressure you can get to stick on him is where you need to attempt to take the stock wholesale, but stay safe with those stale aerials and spaced-out nairs to wall him out. Repeat. Ironically, don't expect the game to be quick.

Maybe the answer is to be like boxing that has rules against a refusal to fight. In boxing, if the referee deems one fighter is not fighting back and is just running away, they can issue a warning, deduct a point, or just dq the fighter.

If there was an option to make 1v1 timeouts always go to sudden death all of this could be avoided

I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic were to overtake Steve as the best character in the game at some point, because when played optimally, - It is impossible to edgeguard him or keep him in disadvantage. - Spindash is the only move Sonic will ever need, as there are countless unpunishable ways to mix up your approach, even from across the stage, giving Sonic incredible neutral. - Sonic's neutral makes him unique in that he is the only character that can consistently pursue the timeout strategy against any opponent, giving him virtually no losing matchups. - Sonic has countless tools to edgeguard and gimp his opponents to further pressure them in disadvantage. It's been two years since Sonic's rise to the top and pro players still have not found reliable, consistent counterplay, all the while players like Sonix and Ken continue to push Sonic to his absolute limits. Losing with Sonic is a choice.

Fighting sonic or any hit and run characters is like playing a game of cat and mouse where the mouse has way to many options to fight back and also turn into a cat and turn YOU into a mouse at will

I thought we solved camping playstyles when peach players would just float above the stage in smash 4 to avoid characters who can't jump. Isn't there an interaction clock at Tournaments?

Not gonna lie I think one of the biggest changes they can make is make it so that he can't combo off his spin dash at all considering he wouldn't be able to rack up absurd amounts of damage nor gimp a large chunk of the roster by carrying them off the side

As a Luigi main it sucks to be playing against Sonic. Using B is pretty much the only way you can open up combos to him.

Honestly, I proposed it multiple times that lowering Sonic's damage output by 10% and giving him moves and features that would encourage interaction would be great. New features to old moves: N. Air - can combo, each hit deals 50% damage of his N. Attack combo. The last hit of the combo allows Sonic to launch himself in the direction opposite of his opponent for a short distance(just a littles more far than mario' F. Air), setting up for Homing attack. D. Air - now goes slightly more forward, encourages you to use it to attack someone below, but more forward Homing Attack - he now can press Normal attack to start his N. Air combo once he connects to an opponent. Delay between connection and combo - 3 frames, allowing some people to dodge by either shield or stomp-like. Spindash - allows Sonic to start Ground Combo the moment he connects with the hit. Using Spindash in the air will instead use Downward Bounce move, that deals as much damage as his spindash on hit and sends enemy downward on 5th hit, but can't be cancelled untill he lands. Use with caution. New moves: Boost - replaces his Side-B. Basicly, chargeable version of Fox Illusion with 3-second cooldown after each use and no enemy knockback. When used in the air - goes upward at 40 degrees horisontal. Can be parried, dodged, and uncharged Version can even be grabbed, if you time it right. You can't charge the move while it's on cooldown.(shown as Boost gauge above Sonic's portrait) Uncharged - short dash, around 1/4 of Final destination, allows aerials and Specials. Fully charged(after holding input for 2 seconds) -aura-clad Modern Sonic boost that launches you for the half of Final Destination and knocks off projectiles, gives you endlag that lasts 2 frames. Boost Gauge(passive): You want to use Sonic's Boost more often? Then hit Opponents with your N.Air and Ground N. Combos to fill the Gauge!

That's something I never try to do as Sonic. Timing people out is just dumb and rude. Since Sonic is a rush down character, he is supposed to rack up damage and then get a killing blow when the time is right. That's why when I play Sonic with some smash bros friends, they always think I am going to time them out until I surprise them by not doing that and going for kills. Word of advice for any Sonic player, go for blood not time. I think I learned much from Clockwork's Sonic, best aggressive Sonic I ever seen.

I used to love putting on the bunny hood and running on the F Zero stage and racing the cars 😂

These videos are like twice as long as they should be.

I'm glad sonic is finally getting some kind of respect. I've been saying for years that his speed lets him control the flow of the game, and that ultimately baits players into fighting on his terms no matter what those terms may be. I think it's hella hype watching top players change their playstyles to accommodate character specific challenges, same as Steve and Kazuya.

"Running from the past is a losing game it never brings you glory!"

I'm reminded of an ancient Smash meme. "Sonics not CHEAP! Sonics just FAST!"

what if, at majors, instead of using the rule that whoever is at lower percent wins in case of a timeout, we use the sudden death match?

Delzethin described it best, it’s ironic how the fastest character in the game has his most optimal play style be slowing down the pace of the match. Sonic desperately need a rework if he returns in the next game.

As someone who mained Sonic in the past; yeah him and Zelda are both my top tier picks for punishing an opponent the first mistake they make. I play less chicken with him because it's quite fun to punish my opponent while I can get away with mistakes.

I don't know how I'd rework Sonic, but making a few of his moves look different (he has a lot of moves that just look like the same spinning animation and that needs to change) and maybe trying to incorporate his momentum mechanics from the classic games rather than raw speed might help? Just spitballing, but let's say Sonic needs to rev up to his max potential, and he has a boost meter or something. His meter fills up as he fights, increasing his ground and air mobility until it hits the maximum. That prioritizes pressuring Sonic early on while he can't handle it, and then you get to that game of chicken near the end of his stock when Sonic is near death and interactions are scary for both players. Rinse and repeat each stock. Probably not a great idea but just putting new concepts out there.

1:20 Little Mac in S-tier, this tierlist seems legit 😎

The character that I mained when it was considered was mid near launch and now is top 3 character is wild... maybe I'll pick smash up for the first time in 4 years

One important thing that we need to have in mind is that Sonix is the only player that can play Sonic at this level, and i'm pretty sure it has to be really hard for him to beat people like MKLeo. Idk why people suddenly think that you can just go and play Sonic for like 3 months and win tourneys. Sonic is not like Steve and we can tell that by looking at the amount of people that actually do use Sonic. So, I, personally think that this isn't that big of a problem unless for whatever reason everyone starts to play Sonic at Sonix's level, wich is very unlikely.

i think it should be noteworthy to mention archetypes that counter sonic. snake samus hero are characters that can force sonic to approach. link is too slow and to vulnerable offstage to use the projectile strat

As a sonic player, I can agree. I like to get in with sonic, but with sonic being relatively light, he can easily lose trades to those who have more range than him, or who do more damage, and with spin dash having so many options, you can’t help but to mix it up ALL the time

I enjoyed watching Sonics gameplan go from Spindashing everything to punching everything.

I wish Sakurai actually played Sonic battle, so he could be inspired to change Sonic's moveset. Maybe frontiers could do that now.

It's sad that the character is played in such a lame way.

It is true that this type of playstyle can be a bit overwhelming. In smash 4, my roommate n I used to play online doubles n his main was Villager. We played spme intense tree game n basically forced our opponents to play on our terms n we won a lot more than we probably should've. But Villager doesn't have as many mix up options as Sonic n the strategy required me to play very risky n aggressively to lure people into our traps cuz 1vs1 it was a lot easier for people to sit back n stall againsy him. But if u got someone like Dedede who can kill u in a few hits (my main) or fast characters like Yoshi, Sonic, or Li'l Mac to rush in n make u feel the pressure, u r more likely to mess up, n when u do, Villager is there to finish u with usually either a tree or a bowling ball. Playing too aggro againsy us was a death sentence, going off stage with Vilkager near the ledge was a death sentence. I can't even count how many times people thought they were about to take the lead by ganging up on me off stage just to realize that neither of them were coming back from that n now they got 1 kill but lost 2 lives. N since my brother had played Spamus for yrs n always would let me basically do 2v1 fights against lvl 9s while he charged up his B, I was really used to going hard n doing seemingly risky plays in those 2v1 scenarios cuz I knew I had backup, well we had a crazy good win rate, something like 70-80% whereas solo I was more like 40-50% n my roommate was about 50-60% at best. I know we weren't anything close to pro levels but online random battles it really was a welcomed gift to find a team that was clearly better than us so that we could improve our skills. Most of our matches were kinda too easy. Controlling the tempo of the fight is probably the best advantage u could ever have cuz it means u don't really have neutral moments anymore, being in neutral is an advantage for u when u wanna play defensively (n my characters would just give the impression that we were offensive n give us even more advantage). Glad to see Sonic getting his day in the sun, but ya, if we could've used our strategy as effectively without a partner, it would've been broken.

I still like using this guy... It would be heartbreaking if he didn't appear in the rest of the franchise (For me at least)

The only frustrating thing about Sonic for me is how people choose to play him. Kinda the same way with the Links, these characters don't have to camp. Just because a character is good at running away doesn't mean you have to. Other than that Sonic is actually a pretty fun character to play as and against when both players are actually playing the game, and not sitting on ledge indefinitely.

I would argue ZSS is just as capable of camping you out like Sonic, ZSS is just as fast if you spam dash instead of holding it and flip kick has invincibility (for some reason)

I feel like if they changed his move set and gave him a massive rework they could make him a good rush down character like fox which rewards Interaction and discourages timeouts. It would also make sense since in the games. your encouraged to go fast

I'm usually not a fan of Rushdown characters but for me, the funny blue guy is an exception.

They just need to give him a much more involved. Seriously Sonic plays like he did in Sonic 1-3, yet they use his modern design. Hopefully the fact that Sakurai said he was playing Sonic frontiers will help out in the next game.

I feel I have heard this before, the amazing camping power.... Puff in the old smash.

8:06 Clever.

whats the song used in this video

Even more hilarious for me as once I began to actually do good against my bro as Sonic, he got mad at the fact i was actually doing good.

Dr. Eggman: First time, eh? You get used to it. Eventually

Maybe it's because my level of skill is "Good enough to play in Elite Smash and beat my casual friend consistently, but wouldn't be caught dead in a tournament," but I actually like how Steve and Kazuya make you almost play a different game. I enjoy the aspect of mixing up the old formula into something unique.