I got kicked out of a charismatic group here in Australia. I complained they were too controlling, and they were. Also, it was very protestant-feeling. No crucifixes, only crosses. They sprung the microphone on me one day and asked me to say a prayer, I started to recite the Hail Mary and they snatched it off my hands only a few words in. Later I found myself being completely ignored at mass by some members I had previously invited to my home for dinner. Too weird for me. The speaking in tounges seemed contrived, they almost suggested they were giving you a 2nd Baptism with their slaying of the spirit. Saying all that, there were some really good people who went, real devout people, but for me? I'll stick to tradition, mass, confession and rosary.

As an introvert charismatics are way too loud for me I prefer sitting in adoration 😂

Same here. I much prefer a quiet setting . People and noise can be exhausting.

As someone whose mother joined a Pentecostal church for 5 yrs, Catholics need to battle against embracing these movements. The trauma (I will detail it if asked) I experienced in that church drove me into atheism for decades. Traditional Catholicism already perfectly blends the intellectual and the emotional with transubstantation. Outside influences do not benefit the Mass.

Every movement of the Holy Spirit, be it the Charismatic movement or the “movement” towards Traditional Catholicism or any other move of the Spirit will have folks who are not necessarily functioning in the Spirit but are fulfilling fleshly needs. We need to be careful about “judging” a movement of the Holy Spirit from a human point of view. Certainly there have been abuses here just as there have been abuses in other movements in the Church. We would be wise not to judge the “Psychology” of the movements, but the fruits. By their fruits we will know them…

I would say there are many parts, all one body. The Charismatic Movement is not something I find myself super-excited about, but I'm happy for those that really find it wonderful. There's a place for the more intellectual, a place for the more emotional, and a place for the in-between. I think the Charismatic Movement might be a wonderful place for many of the Evangelical Protestants I know down here in the rural South, especially Pentecostals, just as the Eastern Catholic churches are a great place for converts from Eastern Orthodoxy. They're expressing their faith similar to how they always have, just now it's the true faith. But for me, I'm not a fan. I don't really get excited even about praise and worship tunes, just all seems kind of cheesy and poppy to me. But as I say, I'm glad for those who really like it.

It's a false dichotomy. St. Thomas (et al) does not have ecstacy in prayer because of the sheer sublimity of their intellectual recognition of divine truths. By the same token almost no one has come to sublime divine truths by throwing themselves into charismatic expression without silent, intentional contemplation. It is by intense moments of relation with the Father in the Spirit that we come by those precious and rare moments as well as instants of internalization of divine mysteries.

Both my parents became involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I respect their journey and watched to see fruits of their new venture. After seeing positive changes in their life together, in the community where they continued to be of service but in a more profound way, I took part as well. In time , my older daughter enjoyed conferences w me. We both have prayer languages that are handy at filling in the gaps . When at a loss for words the Holy Spirit can take over. It involves a learned act of surrender; of opening oneself further to God. The Holy Trinity becomes central in a special, personal way. Scripture reading and studies were of enormous benefit to me. I received healings as well. Yes I met some wacko people: not surprising bc Jesus came for the sick, the downtrodden, the fringes of society. I saw these people being lovingly cared for, patiently tolerated and seldom in charge of groups. It has been over 30 yrs now. My parents have gone to their eternal reward, and tho I am not active in a regular group I am able to use gifts so graciously given from my Lord and Savior. A lot of the music is from my high school days. I like some in particular. Lack of reverence was never an issue in the New Orleans area. The priest were major prayers! Close to the 3 in One. Oh! And once I found the remark in Genesis about the Spirit of God playing amidst creation, I decided I liked Him quite a bit. In my mind He's the playful One!

The Catholic charismatic renewal has been a profoundly good force in my life. Manifesting the movement of my soul externally with my body comes very naturally to me because I’m a dancer, and if done right it is not performative or Vegas-like at all. However, just as with anything good, emotions can be manipulated and abused. This means that not every charismatic group is going to have a healthy dynamic. Sometimes the egos of those running it take over. But if you find yourself a deeply catholic group or even pray alone in your room with arms raised to heaven, that’s a beautiful thing. You’re praying as a whole person, body and soul! Very much like the first apostles.

This is easy enough to articulate in conceptual/spiritual conversations, but when it comes to applying this at the pastoral level, it's much harder to navigate.

I think one challenge I would make is this. While the call to relationship is beautiful in the charismatic movement I think there is often a flawed understanding of what relationship is. YES we should be telling God, this is me in all my brokenness. We should be vulnerable. We should also give praise for all that he is and his love for us. But what I have found in my experience with the charismatic movement (I would attend groups when at seminary and even went to a couple of conferences because I wanted to be open to it and respectful towards it) is that it then dictates that relationship of God. Rather than listen to what he has to say, we set the conditions of the relationship. We say what he is doing for us and how we are in relation to him, not the other way around. I’m sure there are some who can be a part of this movement and have this sense rightly ordered, but I found far too often it leads towards this path. That and I also do not care for speaking in tongues which I found in all of those circles. I think there is a beauty in praise and worship and I love being able to name the love of Christ for me, but I’ve been quite cautious around the movement as a whole.

I think Matt is misunderstanding the nature of Charismatic and Pentacostal theology. They are not teaching that it is good to be enthusiastically in love with God or anything similar. Rather, they believe that these excited emotional states they fins themselves in ARE the supernatural workings of God, which is, plainly, ludicrous. Charismatics are likely to tell you that the goosebumps you get when listening to worship music means the Holy Spirit is working in you. Sorry, but no, that is not what it means.

Excellent discussion! ❤

I love the charismatic renewal, 30 years and still love the praise and worship, l love the Holy Mass and scripture too along with the gift of tongues. The best and most loyal friends and helped me grow in my relationship with Jesus.

Wish you could interview Fr. Dwight Longnecker, former Anglican priest.

I grew up and attended the pentecostal movements for many years before I entered the church. If someone loves it, good for them. Definitely not for me and I cannot encourage it in good conscience.

Yes! So good! This is important for more traditional priests to recall. To allow oneself to be absorbed in the worship of Holy Mass, chanting the prayers from the heart, caught up in the adoration of the blessed Trinity.

No one covered what happens when they abuse you

As a beloved son of the most high and as a proud charismatic I say boldly say that the renewal was the turning point of my life I started to read the bible and started learning the teachings of the church from the renewal its self

How can you support this and complain about Novus Ordo?

I do appreciate this analysis

I think, these groups should be scrutinized by the church, I have experience very idiotic behaviour, denial and inability to take ownership of bad behaviour from appointed and self appointed leaders of a group that really cost me. Found a lot of ego and "other worldliness", attention seeking going on in a large one in Australia. Often the people that gravitated to leadership were the offenders. Looking at it now, I think the good people would have been better off serving the local church or St Vinnie's for example. Just my experience

Love the closing coment. You go guys. Say it

I don't know how many times I've heard iT's NoT aBoUt a ReLiGiOn It'S aBoUt A rElAtIoNsHip

I suppose I don’t mind the Charismatic Movement as long as they stay away from me.

Good can come out of anything. Relation can include feelings, but by no means the essence of relation

As someone who has and continues to experience both the TLM and the charismatic renewal, comments here make me pretty sorrowful. It was through the charismatic renewal that I discovered and surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. It was through a traditionalist priest that i rediscovered my Catholicism. I know this will probably offend but the Holy Spirit does not operate only through the charismatic renewal or through the TLM movement. Both have been vehicles for people to have truly profound conversions. Its humorous when the intellectual sobriety of traditional Catholicism is contrasted with the emotionalism of charismatics. Caricatures at best. When you read the lives of the saints, great saints - like St Dominic and St Pio - wept as they celebrated Mass. How many trads tell me that they wept at their first Latin Mass? Is that experience invalid? In the same regard, charismatics can be very grounded spiritually. Has there been abuse in the charismatic renewal? Absolutely. Has there been abuse in the traditionalist community? Yes whether anyone wants to admit it, even in the SSPX. Its fine to disagree but can we be at least charitable with one another?

The last few comments are gold.

"relational"? meaningless jargon, dudes. the intellect is essentially relational and necessarily grounds any properly human/personal relation, so the distinction between "intellectual" and "relational" is an entirely false distinction.

Please get Fr. Jim Blount on your show!!!

all aboard the rizz movement

Love the Lord your God with all your HEART and SOUL and MIND and STRENGTH. It's all there. Our Father wants us to love Him with our entire being.. Yahweh is an expressive and emotionally vibrant and divine being. His emotions are part of His divinity. Looks at the father's reaction in the parable of the prodigal son, look at the abundant examples of Yahweh's expressing his hurt at unfaithful Israel. I shudder at traditions thats muzzle emotions as a form of piety.

(Charismatic + TLM)/2 = Eastern Catholic It's unexpected, but true.

David danced out of love in front of the tabernacle

Just recently attended the Southwest Charismatic Conference in Albuquerque, and it was powerful!

Charismatics end up pharisaical... Instead of long phylacteries it's sobbing during worship songs.

Perhaps a holy person is a whole person who is capable of both. The Holy Spirit expresses Himself is so many different ways and we, as humans, are made up of emotions and intellect. Both have their place and there can be a balance.

I love the Charismatics❤❤ Can you get an Ordinariate priest on?

Priests say different things, movements say different things, monks say different things, KZfaqrs etc all say different things, the laity say different things….the only one not talking to me…is God. If Catholicism is false. I think I’ve just had enough of life. It’s utterly pointless.

What an absolute breath of fresh air! I love Catholics, but it's hard to listen to their content when they bash protestantism. Thank you for seeking unity with this discussion!

charismatic is the heresy from the abyss shown in revelation

The charismatic churches are the best. They do not play when it comes to God. I have attended Ottawa st. Mary parish and the holy spirit is palpable. The companions of the cross priests are the priests who were founded by the late fr. Bob Bedard and they are Christ's worriors. Some of the priests i remember from the companion of the cross are fr. Carlos Martins, fr. Mark Goring, fr. Roger Vandenikker( sorry for the mispelling here) and a lot of more. The relationship with God is a focus and they have faith and obey God's commandments. Mix both tradionals and charismatic would be the best.

You people know not of which you speak.

Pope Francis has had a singular focus during his pontificate: the Restoration of Assembly Life, which would mean the restoration of the Royal Priesthood--cleric and lay alike united in discernment as the Mystical Body of Christ HERE, in THIS Parish, following Eucharistic Celebration, where every member of a Parish would be purified as best they could be, and made ready for open discernment together immersed in the Life of the Holy Spirit moving wildly among them, what Jesus insisted was the ONLY way for those outside the Parish to know us, and why Paul insisted, "Do not absent yourselves from the Assembly!", what no longer exists in the Church, and what Pope Francis has in futility been trying to restore with his two Synods on Synodality, restoring what was divided: open discernment between ceric and lay, what was approved as a path forward at Vatican II, called "lay formation and the new evangelization", what has been paid lip service by the clerical class without actually doing anything for over a half century. And that radical division between cleric and lay via the cancellation of Assembly Life was made clear by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger in his small 1960 book, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, what has been ignored by the entire clerical class until Pope Francis, making it obvious why he and Pope Benedict XVI get along so well, contrary to popular clerical-class opinion who are unknowingly stomping out the initiative of Francis' synodal process with a disbelief cleric and lay can join in a discernment process as the Royal Priesthood.. This restoration would restore ATTENTION to parish members as a Parish actually BEING the Mystical Body of Christ in fullness, what can only occur through the Restoration of Assembly Life, which would be the radical healing of our fallen faith lives--lives presently subsumed into Satan’s concoction of political paradigms of meaning by both the Left & Right, Satan’s original Plan that seems to be working at a high speed of disintegrating our faith lives during these postmodern times. Many centuries ago the clerical class removed the unifying power of the Holy Spirit from the many congregations in the West that was formerly made possible only through Assembly Life-where the Holy Spirit moved wildly among the congregation, every member arriving in a gestalt perception through what Organic Tradition (temporarily ossified by the clerical class) calls The Mind of Christ, every member seeing through the Eyes of the Holy Spirit, the pathetic little minds of radically autonomous minds, cleric and lay alike, falling away from our eucharistically purified minds like scales that sealed our radically reductive visions inside the parameters of Satan’s Circus, what John called “The World”, which in fact is The Mind of Satan. It would help for us to return to the documents of Vatican II, where a division among clerics was made apparent: the bulk of the clerical class adamant that the Charismatic Movement was anathema-a lay crime-rebellion against their clerical guiding authority that was carved in theological stone (hammer and cycle theology) many centuries prior to the Council, a time when the clerical class became trapped in an all-consuming fear of individuals like Martin Luther and John Calvin, propagating endlessly autonomous rebels as a force aimed at destroying the Catholic Church, a proliferation they clearly still see in motion, with an accumulation presently beyond 40,000 different Christian expressions contemptuously pounding at the titanium-steel barred gates and windows of the One True Church, with clerics blindly lost in their fear-based indifference toward laity, seeing us as they have for centuries as inept, and not knowing that is because they denied us laity access to our missions and gifts by denying us Assembly Life where they are revealed to us in true, communal (Mystical Body of Christ) ATTENTION, what even secularists can see where the clerical class can’t by minds like Lain McGilchrist and Jordan Pererson. And because the clerical class has refused, and continues to refuse, to restore Assembly Life, us laity have no choice but to sit idly by in our fear-based homes, with rosaries in hand, and watch Satan and his Legions continue in his Finale of the utter destruction of the greatest Civilization in all of Human History. What else can the fear-based clerical class do other than to restore ATTENTION by Restoring the Full Life of the Holy Spirit among us, ending the fracturing of that essential phenomenon?

The two secularists I referred to who have a purer sense of how the Holy Spirit moves in us than those of the Catholic clerical class: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/o6qSrbh_s7uxlps.html kzfaq.info/get/bejne/q7WIldGjlqutlaM.html

Charismatics-how they gather and sustain the importance of the Holy Sprit’s presence in our lives as the Mystical Body of Christ-is a powerful remnant of what was cancelled by clerics many centuries ago: Assembly Life. This Assembly Life would follow Eucharistic Celebration, what you correctly reference as a time for silence/adoration and response to readings in spoken word or in song, as in the reading of the Psalms. And Jesus, reiterated by Paul (“Do not absent yourselves from the Assemblies!”), insisted we gather as Parish to discern together FOLLOWING Eucharistic Celebration, a time when our hearts, minds and souls are purified for radical discernment, as is the case after leaving the confessional room, only at a much wider angle and involvement by the entire Parish, those wishing to attend, what occurred even in the catacombs during the persecutions, vital as it was and still is, what the clerical class had long forgotten, stuck in a clerical hierarchy, not the hierarchy of the priesthood-a major difference. That’s how vital those gatherings (assemblies) were, where every voice, cleric and lay, would be heard in discernment, and where our missions, and the gifts to complete those missions, would be revealed! It’s rare today for any lay person to know what his-her missions and gifts are absent that discernment process that takes place in the wild movements of the Holy Spirit, what we are deprived of absent Assembly Life. Once Assembly Life is restored, as Pope Francis has been trying to do, the Charismatic Movement will no longer be necessary (it seems exaggerated displays, and even abuses occur, only because of how terribly lacking every Parish is in being moved by the Holy Spirit into action, and those yearning for the movement of the Holy Spirit among them start to rely on that movement, at the expense of drifting from Parish life in many cases, and why Vatican II insisted on a revival moved by the Holy Spirit who has been absent, what is called “lay formation and the new evangelization”, what cannot occur until Assembly Life is restored, and why after a half century we still have no lay formation and a new evangelization). This is why clericalism in its hierarchical certainties excludes laity from dialog, turning parishioners into invisible men and women, failing in the original attitude of gathering in the Life of the Holy Spirit (“They will know your by your love for one another”, not in fractured groups, “small parish groups”, plagued by resentments): to initiate Vatican II’s insistence on establishing “lay formation and a new evangelization” that requires the restoration of Assembly Life, precisely why after more than 50 years there is no lay formation and a new evangelization anywhere other than in clerical lip service. This is the result of clericalism. Jerome Buhman, in the September 9, 2021 issue of Homiletic and Pastoral Review, in an article titled “Clericalism: Problems Past, Present, and Future”, writes “Bishop Thomas Zinkula offered a simple definition of clericalism in an article in The Catholic Messenger: ‘Clericalism is an exaggeration of the role of the clergy to the detriment of the laity. In a culture of clericalism, clerics are put on a pedestal and the laity are overly deferential and submissive to them.’ (I would be remiss if I did not also point out that he includes bishops and deacons as clerics in this definition.) “He goes on to note that, as Pope Francis points out, ‘clericalism is not only fostered by priests, but also reinforced by lay people.’ In addition, Zinkula says that clericalism may also affect ‘those preparing for ordained ministry as well as those serving as lay ministers.’ Father Donald Cozzens of John Carroll University describes clericalism as ‘an attitude found in many clergy who put their status as priests and bishops above their status as baptized disciples of Jesus Christ. In doing so, a sense of privilege and entitlement emerges in their individual and collective psyche. This, in turn, breeds a corps of ecclesiastical elites who think they’re unlike the rest of the faithful’.” Perhaps a quote from Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s 1960 book, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, might bring some clarity: pp 68-69: “The recognition that ekklesia (Church) and adelphotes (brotherhood) are the same thing, that the Church that fulfills herself in celebration of the Eucharist…compels us to celebrate the Eucharist as a rite of brotherhood in responsory dialogue [my emphasis]-and not have a lonely hierarchy facing a group of laymen each one of whom is shut off in his own missal or other devotional book. The Eucharist must again [like in the 1st century] become visibly the sacrament of brotherhood in order to be able to achieve its full, community-creating power [Assembly Life, as it was in the 1st century]."