You say there's no RNG factor but I'm pretty sure I teched that throw when the game said I didn't

I lose but it's not my fault, the opponent is playing a grappler.

"Not RNG items on fighting games" Faust: Are you sure about that?

The real reason fighting games are difficult is cuz I broke all my fingers attempting the KOFXIII trials lol

I make this point all the time. 1 v 1 is what's truly hard about fighting games.

I prefer fighting games bc of the fact the loss is solely on me. When playing Apex, it didn't feel good to win bc it never felt earned. And when I lost, there's so many factors I can blame that it really never incentivised me to improve. With fighting games, if I lost, I know exactly why I lost, where I lost, how I lost, and everything. It makes improving a much more rewarding experience and so much more fun

*Professional Starcraft 2 players have entered the chat*

One thing that could be good for fighting games is introducing sub goals for players to aim for while they get their asses kicked. Example, a daily mission that goes "In ranked match tech 5 throws", or "land 5 counter hits frame traps" or something. This is probably complicated to add to any fighting game, but it would help alleviate the stress of losing for players while also teaching them that winning shouldn't and doesn't have to be the only goal you have when you play and there are other ways to "win" in the long run without winning one game.

There is no RNG in fighting games. Faust and Platinum : allow us to introduce ourselves.

Very interesting topic Sajam, looking forward to see Jiyuna do a take on this too!

me in 2015: bro im trash me in 2021: bro im trash, for now

fighting games at low levels require a mindset that most people just don't have the mindset goes like this: - you can enjoy a fighting game without being good at it (but you can still try to get better) - while losing is on you, sometimes you don't have much to do about it at the moment, especially if you're fighting an experienced player - you will not be able to execute everything the first time, fighting games are just designed in a way that doesn't hold your hands like most modern games - you might be bad, but that's because you're in a learning process - the learning process can be longer that other games, especially since fighting games usually reward legacy skill, which you as a new player just don't have that's all I can think of rn, but tl;dr getting gud is just harder

Starcraft/most RTSs have this same issue, for the same reasons.

It's also difficult because of the online population. Depending on the game, it might be basically impossible to find quickplay matches. Lobbies/Casuals are often highly varied in player skill. "Beginner" isn't necessarily the skill level assigned to people who just picked up the game this week and are still figuring things out, and it's INCREDIBLY rare for the people you're playing with to reach out and give you advice.

Wifi/bad netcode = RNG

"There's no RNG in fighting games" 50/50 mix-ups: _Allow Us To Introduce Ourselves_

Good video, Sajam

But he's playing a top tier, has a 9-1 MU vs my character.

Bring rollback to BBCF

I'm really confused that there was even a debate about fighting games being the hardest, RTS is the only other genre that's on the same level and I bet the commenters weren't talking about that but moba or fps instead

>there's no RNG in fighting games Faust would like to know your location.

I'm surprised at you, Sajam. You didn't mention that when beginners play fighting games badly, it makes the game look bad. When other game genres are played badly, there are laughs to be had.

If you want hard, try being a salaryman and going to interviews against people with degrees from Oxford union or UCL! Mans always get that job!

I don't know. People find stuff to blame instead of themselves even in FGs. It's not hard to play fighting games. What's hard is to do fun stuff in fighting games.

In a game design course at my university they teach us that frustration can be way worse than boredom. A player can overcome boredom if the reward is satisfying enough, but frustration easily leads to quitting the game. That's basically the summary of this video but it's also an important concept to keep in mind when designing a video game or a game in general.

I feel that giving the fighting game genre the title of hardest or most difficult is doing it a misleading disservice. The genre is way smaller than it should be given the longevity and number of titles in it. Using off putting terms like "most difficult" on it to justify a hobby or career isn't helping. Multiplayer team games are by nature more complex than 1v1. More hands in the kitchen means more chances for error. Which makes it kinda screwed up that those genres can grow and pull in more pro money. If you're going to lift up fgc, please play into its strengths. Easy to start, hard to master. Straightforward controls (no kb+mouse). Low cost entry and cosmetics. More title variety than any two genres with a pro scene. Hardest and most complex? Put that evil on a genre that deserves it.

I always blame my opponent because they hit the button before I did, so they're reading my inputs

Starcraft is similar to fighting games by being a hard 1v1 game and starcraft players cope with losses by just blaming game balance instead of their own faults

LTG existence throws all this out the window 🤣

17 seconds ago Rollback can’t save me yet... XD

I came into this video thinking "If he says anything other than the fact that other games trick you into being OK with losing, I'm going to write a novel." Then my man delivered on point. Stay classy, Jiyuna.

I think even more fundamentally, in fighting games, at any skill level, when you play against someone significantly better than you, you don't get to do anything. In other gaming genres, even if you suck, you get to customize, collect, explore, pause and think, go on the attack for a bit, and even win by minor contribution. In fighting games, they counter your opening move. Rush in, get knockdown. Open you back up on wakeup, combo you down to 10%/death, then when you panic block, you get thrown.

I think we're overlooking one super major factor. All those games that blow up super popular, ARE FREE! and even while free, alot of those games have better features(online quality/netcode/servers), better graphics, more content(skins, voice lines, characters, etc), more variety(RNG situations, teammates, decks) than most if not any fighting games that sell for $60(base game), $20(season pass for characters that can't be earned in game), $?? (for skins and maps that can't be earned in game.

One of the biggest reasons for why fighting games are difficult that barely anyone talks about, is that the entire moveset is open to the player from minute go. Every other competitive game slowly eases you into your controls, list of commands etc. Couple that with a lack of proper ranked and you've got yourself a torture dungeon for beginners.

One of your best videos, spitting facts! This is why every time I introduce a friend to fighting games, I always tell them the first step is to put aside their ego or tone it down a notch at the start, since losing is inevitable. Once you can get past that, fighting games are the best.

Good points! Melee recently added hidden MMR into their unranked matchmaking that works extremely well. I think that might be one possible solution to make sure newer players can get an early first taste of winning and increase the chance of them sticking around. Being able to run into beasts by accident is one of the many charms about fg's tho imo and shouldn't be completely removed

As a big fighting game enthusiast who just can't play long enough to get good I both agree and disagree. I do think there are a lot of people who aren't comfortable losing or knowing they did bad, but I also think that fighting games have some of the biggest gulfs in the business of getting to a baseline 'I feel like I am playing this game'. I personally don't mind getting my ass kicked, but it's really hard to argue putting in the time to get to a baseline level so that I can just be bad instead of unplayably bad.

I think having a sense of humility is what allowed me to transition from team based games like mobas or counter strike. I was always prepared to be critical of myself before blaming my teammates, so when it came time to be full responsible for my play in a 1v1 environment, I was ready to dedicate myself to improvement.

I think fighting games and 1v1 games like WarcraftIII or StarCraft are hard. You lose because you are not good enough. You are to blame when you lose. People don't like this feeling.

Any given competitive game is only as difficult as your competitor. I think people tend to see some genres as more forgiving or easier to do well in but the simple fact is they're more populated by players who are more forgiving or easier to do well against. This problem compounds itself because the people that actually *do* stick with fighting games end up becoming skill checks or gatekeepers of sorts. They may not be any good at the game, they're just good enough to fuck you up in 15 seconds, good game; peace out. So even at the lowest ladders of play, a complete beginner stops playing against people against his actual level after a single weekend and then he runs into the wall of players who are only good enough to wail on him in intimidating fashion.

This is why we need a 3 v 3 arcade fighter with depth! For traditional 2d or 3d fighters I think there needs to be excellent single player content where newbies can learn, feel good, have fun， and win without having to step online. I think also perception is the issue too. People want to jump online without knowing anything and expect to win.

Great topic! If I recall correctly, some fighting games do reward you if you complete certain daily challenges. Maybe they could make this more "training-focused" so that if you spend a certain amount of time in training mode each day or practice certain combo's, they could give extra rewards? Maybe that will encourage new players to actually get better at the game.

The Brad Pitt of the FGC does it again

"There is no RNG factor" Faust entered the chat.

This is stupid. Of course fighting games are the hardest. Imagine tryina go to an arcade and run the fade with someone only to get shot because you grabbed them.

Played +r for the first time online last night. Proceeded to get whooped 3-87 from midnight to about 4:30 am. Even though sometimes the opponent was teleporting from rollback the experience was heaps better than delay based and its really discouraging me from wanting to play Answer in rev2. Really love the videos y'all have been pumping out

Avid Starcraft fan here (since Brood War days), and this is exactly why I moved to playing fighting games. Starcraft matches took 20+ minutes if both sides are good, only to lose after a period of constant focus. THEN you have to watch replays to see what you missed scouting. Fighting games - no bullshit. A game of (mostly) complete information, and feedback is instant, so you learn so much faster. Appreciate the work you put into the community. Keep up the good fight.

That’s probably the biggest factor in regards to the “approachability “ of fighting games and player retention. I do also think that there are preconceived notions about the nature of what is a match in a fighting game. You touched on this a little in your video about Frame Data but the concept of plus/minus or what I like to use the phrase “Fighting Games are turn based matches” which sounds counter intuitive until you get the concept of “taking your turn” and understanding the ebb and flow which not many people get and get frustrated because they feel like they can’t play the game cause their “turn” keeps getting taken away by being outplayed. You actively deny your opponent the ability to play (which Killer Instinct tries to solve with the Breaker system). Anyways I’m rambling but I hope I’m not too off base with these thoughts.

The other thing about team games is that you can play with friends that carry you while you're learning, so you can 'feel like you're doing something' and learn along the way while playing. You can try to get into fighting games with friends, but I imagine most people share the same experience where it's just you getting dunked on, and them not really understanding the game well enough to teach it, which inevitably means you *have* to practice and probably research a lot if you want to get good enough to actually play the game. I would argue fighting games are probably also the most difficult games to develop, because they have to figure out how to get people to learn the game from playing it instead of just training, and the only way they've been able to figure it out is by making games simple enough to not need training mode, which tends to result in dumbing it down until it gets boring.

How I learned how to do DP and Other Motion Inputs was KOF 13 and older KOF when I was a little bit younger.

Ooooh the choas code ost in the background, I love u so much Jyuna just for that hahaha

When I was learning guilty gear, it helped a lot to just say to myself that everyone who beat me was a sweaty nerd with no friends that spends all their time in training mode

does that mean bad netcode was helping fighting games by giving an excuse? rollback gonna kill fighting games rip

Gotta put shmups in the conversation for tough competitive games. Getting on those leaderboards is a big mountain to climb. I should watch the video before commenting!

It's hard because there isn't any objective in a fighting game other than to win. Compare that to league where you lose but you won your lane you still feel rewarded and know you're improving bit by bit.

Makes a lot of sense to me. I happen to be an individual that is prone to putting the blame on myself, and that kind of makes team games more difficult for me to get into whereas fighting games immediately felt like a solid fit - I'm never a burden to anyone else, and am only responsible for my own losses. Obviously, not necessarily the healthiest mindset in some regards, but I'm glad it at least enabled me to not be deterred from one of my favorite hobbies.

The 1v1 factor of fighting games is what actually makes me love them so much. It's really rewarding when you learn the matchup, keep improving and win. You kinda create a bond with a character that you like. Feels great.

I don’t even take losing as a burden anymore, just glad that I’ve learned to not lose that way again. And that cycle of improvement is my favorite thing about fighting games

I think that fighting games need give more positive reinforcement for getting better at the game. If the only thing that you see when you lose is the win/lose ratio of the opponent, of course someone new is gonna feel unmotivated to keep playing. Something as simple as a badget system at the end of a match can help a lot to make the player think that their loss is not something to be frustrated about. Edit: Now that i think abot it, GG Xrd's Arcade mode has the badget system that i'm talkin about.

Another big factor in the difficulty of FG's is the frequency at which you're required to make decisions. Coming from Melee, I'm taxed with making decisions based on stage knowledge, character matchup, opponent behaviour, conditioning and our characters' position and state (probably forgetting something) multiple times every second in a game with very high mechanical requirements. Fighting games have probably the highest frequency of relevant choices out of all multiplayer genres coupled with complex control systems making them hard to pick up, hard to master and really satisfying to win at. Shoutout to Quake tho.

The barrier to entry in terms of having fun is really high in FG titles in comparison to other genres. The game doesn’t motivate you with rewards. So the only motivation is your own want to improve. Its not like that in other genres. I say this as someones whos first FG was tekken 7. I quit the game multiple times in my first year out of frustration with losing non stop for months. Eventually i improved at got decent and now i play it daily but i feel for new players.

Fighting games, like most pvp games, are as hard as the opponents you are facing.

A big factor about fighting games is that you always have to be on top of your game/better player to win the match. In team games you can usual get carried if you want to relax and have fun, but in fighting games you can’t relax. You have to always engage or else you’ll get trampled. In card games, you’re usually sitting there thinking and taking your time, but in fighting games you have to adapt immediately and most people can’t take the pressure.

Cool upload, sajam.

The main issue is playing to win more than for fun, and even worse playing online before enjoying the game itself. This is toxic mentality and people driving themselves mad over their own poor choices.

This is why I love fighting games. No frustration with teammates and I love how your growth shows over time. I know ranks don’t mean everything but after labbing i finally stopped being hard stuck ultra diamond in SFV and that’s all because of the grind. Great video Brian F

They definitely aren’t hard to understand with how I play, I’m either going in or getting hit.

Something I tell people intimidated by combos, "Better players don't use combos to kill you, better players just use combos to kill you faster."

I think the other big problem is a persons perception of what they need to accomplish to be successful. For example, in a one player game like Super Mario 64, all you need to do is beat Bowser in the sky to say that you have beaten the game. The player can claim the game was easy because they have seen the credits. But if that same person tries to go for the 120 star speedrun world record, they will quickly see that they are not very skilled at the game at all. This is because getting a world record is far FAR more difficult than simply completing the game. Fighting games may have an arcade mode but most player watch tournaments and other such features, thus viewing "completion" of a fighting game as getting to a high enough level competitively. That becomes their end goal, so they throw themselves into the competitive aspect of the game with the anticipation that they will "complete the game". The problem is that completing a game and being good at a game are two very different challenges and require two very different skill levels. So when they undoubtedly don't reach the level they are aiming for, they view the game itself as being insainly hard, instead of the proficiency they are trying to play the game with as being insainly hard.

Solo battle royale kind of has that vibe but that moment when you pull off an amazing combo or actually wash people makes it worth it! It’s like beating a challenging souls game LOL.

Man Jiyuna's opinion is just on point. whenever I try to get my friends to play fighting game they are just too frustrated to the fact that there is no one to blame.

Nice callout on the Chaos Code OST. Shit’s fire.

there are several factors why fighting games are in the space where they are now, they didn't allways used to be like this. the truth is that fighting games are behind in evolution when it comes to the casual market, i'd say tekken 3 and possibly soul calibur i can't remember the exact one but it was one of the earlier ones was the height of casual gameplay for fighting games and since then it have dropped the ball and tried to get the casual crowd into the competitive scene which isn't really for everyone. back in the day we had beat'em ups which was more or less a casual version of a fighting game, we had long story missions, other types of modes, cosmetical and character unlocks for just playing the game, ways to actually entertain yourself by actually playing against the CPU. what do we have now? trial missions just grinding to learn a combo? time trial? short cinematics? it really haven't evolved, imo i think it's devolved in order to serve the competitive market to focus on specifically the competitive scene and trying to pigeonhole everyone into it and trying to make it accessable and enjoyable to everyone which allways fail either the hardcore competitive purists or those who simply wanna play for a bit without wanting to really try too hard. the other thing that happened to fighting games is that they missed to please 3 big markets, the online community by having shitty netcode and also people who just wanna play with their friends and hang out and the solo player who want to play vs the cpu. really the only 2 markets they hit is the theme the game is based around, either legacy or it has characters that some people recognize from other games or media and fighting game enthusiasts. making a game accessable in the competitive scene is not the right answer and will probably never be. just give'em tekken force or red earth or something as a package deal with a competitive mode along side it that's both well made. imagine if pokemon wasn't a long RPG where you fought your way through CPU to collect badges to get to a boss and it only was PVP, not many would have played it.

damn the Chaos Code music? Your St. Patrick's Day tree is up really early though

I agree, personal accountability is a huge part of why there's the perception that fighting games are difficult. I do think there's something to be said though about some games allowing for more passive play, like the healer role in many MMORPGs. There's the old saying, "different strokes for different folks," and I believe strongly that player psychology is a huge factor that leads people to make different types of choices, like between tank, healer, ranged DPS and melee DPS. The kinds of players in these sorts of games who like to sit back and play passively are very different kinds of people, mindset-wise, than the types of personalities that you see craving more demanding, high-risk, high-reward gameplay with positionals and complex rotations while being right up in a boss monster's face. That can be very anxiety-inducing for players who don't have the mental fortitude to keep beating their head against a wall up close and personal until it breaks, or high-anxiety individuals who don't handle those situations terribly well. The kinds of players with the Rocky Balboa mindset, who crave more and more rounds every time they get knocked down until they figure out how to overcome an obstacle, the kinds of personalities who will keep playing round after round for hours within arms length of an opponent with the determination and perseverance to keep going until they win (and by extension, feel the accomplishment of an earned victory), is not the sort of thing you tend to see with people who tend to play more passive roles in other games. It all comes down to player psychology. It's a mindset thing. For example, KizzieKay, one of the best Xrd players in the world, started at the very bottom, and lost hundreds of matches until he got better. He kept trying, like the old saying goes, "if at first you don't succeed, try and try again,". That sort of thing requires a degree of mental fortitude which I think is more common amongst older gamers who remember the days of Mario games with no continues (you die, you start at the very beginning), but less common these days where games offer too many options for passive players. That, and times have changed, so there are too many avenues for players - and by extension, people - to avoid having to deal with uncomfortable situations, so people have grown softer rather than developing ways to cope with the anxiety that comes with learning to deal with conflict and confrontation. Unfortunately, direct conflict is kind of at the core of 1v1 fighting games, where you are up close and personal with an opponent coming at you head-on, so I believe there's a correlation between the way a person deals with interpersonal conflict and that sort of personality type's ability to cope with the anxiety of overcoming obstacles in fighting games and any perceived difficulty therein. Players who tend to enjoy instant gratification and seeking low-effort victories and exploits tend to find the perceived barrier for entry overwhelming, compared to those personalities with perseverance and a craving for obstacles to knock down or glass ceilings to break. People with more aggressive mindsets, who feel like they have something to prove, tend to do lots better in these types of environments. Likewise, I think that lots of players like the IDEA of being good at fighting games, because they look cool and/or they watch lots of shounen anime and wish to have that power fantasy, but they themselves lack the sort of player psychology which thrives in these sorts of high-anxiety situations. I don't believe player psychology/personality type should be discounted in these sorts of discussions, but that's just my personal perspective.

if you dont scratch your hands every start of the video, we riot

Luck happens in fighting games all the time. In combat sports we talk about the idea of human coin flipping. It happens in fighting games all the time. Lag, buttons, you didn't eat/sleep well... When human error is involved luck happens. It doesn't mean you are a bad player just that day your opponent was better.

Another thing about Fighting Games vs other big competitive games is there is no time to rest really. Like if you die in an FPS/MOBA or run to an objective in a BR game, there is downtime, a time to think and plan where in fighting games you have no time. You have to make choices in seconds, 50/50s in less than a second. This can be mentally taxing. A huge problem I have is when I lose a match but it was close, like one or two hits difference. There is no 'good attempt' in rank, you lose you lose, no points, downrank, fuck off. So I have to sit there and hate myself waiting for another match, which can feel like forever depending. I can't stand waiting 5+ mins after losing for another match which I deal with all the time cause of where I live.

The thumbnail made me think about data storage for absolutely no reason with that uninstall button. I had that issue until just recently I upped my memory (who includes a pc with only 256 GB...?)

Jiyuna saying truths all over the place. I'm kinda new to fighting games and I believe that they are the hardest of all. They are amazing but it's a road of obstacles. As you said: no bullshit.

This is exactly what I’m saying man. Also what’s the background music, that slaps!

You are definitely right though, the feel-bad from losing in a FG, at least when it happens quite often (which it will for a newcomer) is possibly the worst of all multiplayer games. Even worse than in 1v1 RTS because those matches tend to last a while, so you at least have an impression that you had a fighting chance (once you master defeating the basic cheese tactics), despite the fact that you perhaps didn't.

only thing hard about fighting games is how my pool always seems to catch on fire and distract me, it's really weird.

Bringing up StarCraft is pretty interesting. RTS kind of share a lot of those factors with fighting games in that they're 1v1 and require a lot of game knowledge rather than instinctive play with matchups, counters, scouting, build orders etc. You could always say you got cheese'd by someone rushing you but that's kinda similar to getting hit once by a grappler and then guessing for your life.

Yeah, this is true there is a lot of nuance to fighting games that can't really be explained or fully understood in a single session or tutorial. For example, I tried explaining Oki, Yomi, and Footsies to my friend and he had no idea those were aspects of a fighting game like the combos are a part of fighting games. When I explained that getting your ass beat over and over was the path to mastering those ideas it just looked like he became discouraged lol

In terms of competitive games, I think there are several tiers of difficulty. S is real time strategy games eg starcraft 1 and 2. A has the vast majority of games from FPS moba fighting games etc, all still very hard and with high mechanical requirements and value on knowledge but not on the same level as top rts. Then B is things like hearthstone where rng is much more important and mechanical requirements are effectively removed or other games that remove other variables

Another reason is due to the fact that you're up against a real person, someone with a functioning brain that adapts and evolves in real time at what you do which is completely different from going against a brain dead NPC.

I never thought about that and I completely agree with you. They may not easily allow you to lie to yourself about a loss if that's what you want, but also when you win it feels much better, because you know it's all you.

Yeah man this is 100% what I was screaming when the other sajam came out with his video a while back. Another factor you might not have looked at is fps and similar are really common in the market right now, but fighting games are only really like other fighting games. So picking up a game like csgo or fortnite or whatever is a lot easier than picking up street fighter for most people since they've played similar things. They understand the basics already. And "hide behind cover to avoid getting shot" is far more intuitive a mechanic than "hold back to block". Many factors go into ease of learning.

I agree that losing in fighting game feel worse than many other games.

In my opinion it's not the 1v1 nature that hinders the fgc, but the fact that everyone keeps saying it's incredibly hard. I remember learning ggxrd and after a couple of weeks went on to reddit to learn more. While there I saw a thread where a new player asked how hard was the game and should they play it, and several people replied saying it was super difficult and not a good first fighting game. If I hadn't already been playing the game and known that was not entirely true, I might have never learned fighting games.

"I lost because my opponent was on wifi" is the new hotness, it seems.

Fighting games are a study and take so much out of me. Most shooters today are live-die-repeat and easily accessible and doesn't require a phd in frame data

I talked about it on Obama's video on the single player experience in FGs. I think the best gameplay translation that allows a player to experience less penalties for bad play would be to incorporate a coop beat em up mode. Got read and destroyed in ranked? Hop on coop and complete a boss rush. Of course you'd need something to keep people playing like items/cosmetics/an in game shop/etc. Some kind of "casual mode" to just chill and enjoy the game.

New Sajam upload You love to see it

love it. This is exactly why i play fighting games in the first place. I see it as a blessing of fighting games and never an "issue". Hope it never changes!

The fighting game experience: Pay $60 to basically go to school and learn a to control a character for 30 to 80 hours. Then go online and get demolished for hundreds of hours more while the game feels like it's underwater. Great $60 experience. Who of healthy mind would subject themselves to that instead of a popular single player experience or a free to play (low commitment) multiplayer game

I 100% agree. I got into fighting games 2 years ago. What made me stick around was the fact that i realised when i'm in game, it's always me vs my opponent. And that the factors are always consistent. Because of that it felt good when i was able to beat someone even when i couldn't before

Core-A gaming mentions the same thing. Your ego is ALWAYS on the line in fighting games. If you're deep in fighting games already then preserving your ego must not a be priority. at least not the no. 1 priority.

Smash Bros is a good alternative because it provides the option for tailored RNG with items and stage hazards. It’s honestly why I have a blast playing it.