Once upon a time on the rift, there existed a 6th role, one so OP and specialized that it had only 1 champion in it before Riot removed it. Yes, I'm talking about River Shen, may he Rest In Peace.

I think you are missing some important factors 1: lost chapter is a HUGE power spike for lane pressure, its so huge that 1 season after the mages being meta on bot lane, riot released mythics with adc quiver 2: the autoattack diference on early game is not so high, a 55 ad 0,65 as vs a 65 ad 0,8 as is really negligible 3: botlaners dont really know how to play against mages, especially champions like draven who are really vulnerable against skillshots 4: mages can easily run tp as a summoner, since they have sufficient wave pressure to get a cheated recall what is easily more worth it than a defensive spell on early game 5: after level 6, some lanes have the potential to just get you from 100% to 0% if one cc is landed with the help of their supports (especially veigar, lux and syndra, yes the later two are viable too on botlane)

To be fair playing Mages in botlane fels way more easier than laning mid against half of the matchups

People kept saying ADC is too strong not realizing it’s not the marksmen. It’s supports and dragons that’s op. If Kog is fed and isn’t next to his support then he dies instantly to any assassin. That goes for every adc. But when support gets ahead they make everybody tankier and usually has a way to speed up allies or cc enemies. It’s just like when people say bot diff instead of support diff. Supports win the lane usually. Supports make the top and jung incredibly hard to kill in team fights and shut down assassins late game with abilities like polymorph. Everybody can kill the ADC even if the adc is with the mid. But not if the ADC is with the support. Support is op and cheaper support items are going to make them more OP

pointing out the dash range of melee champs compared to typical ADC range puts numbers to something that actually bothers me a lot. I play Wukong bot a lot because once he hits level 2-3 depending on the opponents if they don't give you infinite respect you can just dash on them and end their life. It's kinda crazy that I can play a melee champ bot lane and do better with him regardless of my support than I can with an ADC I have 500K+ mastery on.

as a new player i would love to hear more about how the roles became what they are and why they attract the classes they attract. and of course what you think how the different roles could or should work instead.

Karthus adc having a 53%+ WR for like 5 patches in a row lol

I want to point out that the lost chapter cost reduction and dcap buffs single-handedly sent karthus bot to a 56% WR

my issue with ap botlaners is this. Marksman are only allowed in a SINGLE position on the rift consistently, outside of 2 outliars being quinn and kindred (graves is not a marksman anymore, he is a bruiser). Any time a marksman tries to leave botlane and sees ANY kind of success riot gutts them into the dirt, a few examples 1. ezreal mid, sure it was a little strong, but far from broken, and was deleted from the game in 1 patch. 2. ezreal jungle, it wasn't even that strong, it had strong dueling power, and that was it. riot proceeded to GUTT ezreal out of the game for 2 years after that. 3. kog'maw mid, he was playing as a weaker xerath, and riot gutted him for that 4. kog'maw jungle, now this was an issue with bloodrazer more than kog, but still another example 5. lucien mid, riot gutted his e resets and w ms boost for daring to leave botlane 6. lucien mid AGAIN, this time riot fucking EMERGENCY REWORKED THE ENTIRE CHAMPION OUT OF THE LANE 7. vayne top, the hashinshins got that one gutted even though it had under a 1% pickrate, so they never even saw the damn pick 8. tristana has been nerfed for going midlane more time than i can count at this point 9. the most recent example Ashe support, rather than letting her play her utility role, riot just gutted the entire build and "made up for it" with some fucking attackspeed on q that is my issue with ap botlaners. the fact that no other class is gimped to one position but marksman. Riot does the same thing with crit items. any time an adc DARES to no want to build those garbage fucking items (garbage until recently) riot would gutt the champion and then throw a crit scaling into their kit just to force them to build items that were objectively trash but i want you to imagine if any other class was treated like this. "we dont like that bruisers are going midlane, so we've reduced all of their magic resistances from 32 down to 14, but increasing their armor across the board by 3". there would be riots in the streets and riot members would be tarred and feathered if this ever happened. yet when it happens to marksman its fine??????

Coming from dota, I don't know why people are so obsessed picking marksmen archetypes of heroes in that 1 specific lane, when there are multiple lanes and multiple styles of gameplay. For me, picking Akshan/Vayne top is a clever move, as it changes the lane equilibrium and how can change the matchup to be much more favorable compared to using the default "meta". Also, Jax adc is a big brain move from the person in happychimenoises' video.

I find it interesting how often different roles rotate to different positions often, like assassins in top, mages as support, certain tanks as junglers, and yet most people don't like it when a marksmen rotates anywhere besides bot. Many don't like facing them top or even mid, and would rather not see them in jungle. The only role not allowed to change the status quo it seems.

I'm surprised that Heimer didn't make the short list for AP bot laners. He's already one of the safer laners in the game because he can keep pushing the turret line up, and when you pair him with a lockdown support or someone with a grab, he can be a serious monster.

Great episode. Tbh I'm almost 50-50% AD-AP botlaner to adapt on team/having fun. Don't forget the Varus AP build, that's a great way for a Botlaner player to add AP and to 100%→0% with 1 R-WQ (even on tank).

Great video. I'm genuinely curious why we don't see mages in the bot more. As a mid main that can't play marksman to save my life, when I get filled bot I STILL try to play marksman in an attempt to learn, rather than choosing a safe mage I can already play. I have no idea why. The meta has been marksman bot so long that I struggle to choose or even think of playing anything else. It's interesting to say the least.

My freind and I love playing Asol APC + Anivia Support. They work so well together for so many reasons. And they both scale very well into late.

I remember it as a response to the early 4 man dives and the start of the assassin meta after the marksman rework.

Just yesterday i've saw my Draven Blitzcrank bot lane get destroyed by a Veigar soraka, it already says a lot to me.

I play Cassiopeia bot. She doesn't really have the advantages of other mage botlaners, instead she plays like traditional ADCs with her consistent and sustained damage. One would think Azir bot is similar, but it's really not the case because he's so much more dependent on solo xp for his scaling than gold

It's probably cause it's such an old change, but something I don't see talked about when concerning how botlane meta developed is that your AP stat did no damage to turrets so having an AD carry was necessary for pushing. And sure, that probably seems irrelevant to league today, except that riot has, for better or worse, decided to balance the game around the meta that developed in early league. That's partly why aberrant playstyles, like classic funnel strats or roaming janna top, get nerfed out of existence by changes to fundamental mechanics. Both developers and community seem to have largely accepted that those early metas are the core league of legends experience. Also league's balance and meta being so heavily influenced by pro play is likely why AD carries are seen as the standard, even if AP carries might often be better in solo queue.

you can go cass apc too, and usually you out dps the enemy at lost chapter assuming you can reach them

I think the biggest problem with AP carrys is damage output is not consistant since you had to hit the abilities and marskman not. Soo missing 1 ability with and apc is the diferences in winning or losing a trade. Marksman auto attack damage is not avoidable so is easier to stack check you when they are ahead and apc dont have that priviledge.

As someone who has played taliyah bot for like 4 seasons and has even been recently successful with Diana bot, mages are definitely stronger bot than mid. Especially because imo burst tends to be more useful than “consistent damage” mainly cause in contest of consistent damage and burst, burst will just kill the consistent damage before they have the chance to get all that damage off

As a mid mage main I used to play secondary support, but recently I noticed it is way easier to just go secondary Botlane and play Seraphine and Veigar whom I already play mid, just in botlane and it has proven itself really effective The times when I play Seraphine bot and my support is Lux is the time enemy botlane has no chance of existing while we also outscale them

i do this with cariopea. cus she is basikly an ad charakter in playstyle already, also the ult matters more in 2v2 than 1v1 while the spit rarely needs to be used in lane so i can usualy use it to nope a jungle gank

APC are some of the most fun characters to play, because theres nothing better than watching the ADC start flaming you when they start loosing.

How does video that is so good only had 7.5K views!?

I remember the time when my friends convinced me to play LoL again two seasons ago, it was like that episode of the Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy where Billy finds Fred Flintstone and tries to make him fit in the modern world I was coming back from season 4 and holy shit the game was so different!

In the end of the Video you said :"Picking Vladimir or Kennen in the Botlane is kinda troll". I play Kennen a lot in Botlane with good success. Great poke and great all in potential + escape when i get ganked.

Wouldn't respective resistance penetration/shred/ or removal also be parameters that also affect damage for both attacks and abilities?

I wonder when Riot will play around the idea of having a mage bot laner in the same fashion they played with the idea of having a melee bot laner (Nilah)

I genuinely like Brand and Lux for AP bot roles. They work at bot anyway, and if you give them enough gold from farming, they are that much more dangerous. Most likely Vel'Koz can also do it for example. Kennen as an AP bot is also a pretty safe pick, because of his E escape tool. And at level 6 your engagement potential is insane. Swain also works in this role at bot.

My favorite AP Carry is hands down Taliyah. Now, granted, my favorite champion of all time is Taliyah, but still. She fits the roll kinda like Karthus, her Q replaces her Auto Attack. She trades some of his damage for her Wombo Combo and better zoning. Works really well with engage supports or even other mages with more consistant CC like Swain, Lissandra, or Morgana.

Can we tanks get an MR grievous item or what

Played some morgana as ap carry a couple of times. Kinda worked, when you don't go 0/5 in the first 5 minutes

this map looks so cool omg

lost chapter is the problem, when your only weakness in botlane gets covered with 1300 gold its not balanced, assassins can burst down mages but adcs cant and with nearly infinite mana they have all the pros and none of the cons

In meta where dragon priority has gone out of controll so you need cc and stronger abilities to get that priority Most adc champions do not have this options so you need good wave clear mages and those have some form of cc in their kit

Hi Vars, i'm curious on your take on LOL's Wild Rift and why it's not as big as its competitors

I wonder whatever happened to Cassiopeia bot. I'm glad she doesn't go down there anymore, but I haven't played pvp in a long time and I didn't see her mentioned in the video

Actually, there is a reason bot is where it is. The reason is that there was back then, and still is now more to gain from having a strong presence in the botside river than in the top side. Before there were heralds there was basically no reason to control the topside until the baron spawns. So naturally, people figured out it’s better to send the double lane into the place where there is more to gain for the team. By the time herald(s) were added it became such a strong convention that it is now difficult to break, although even with heralds, there is not really any need for two people to be there except for when it actually spawns, and pro teams usually rotate bot for it if they want the objective, so there still isn’t really any reason to send two people top rather than bot. There is also a reason two people don’t go mid

As a bot lane player, I LOVE playing mages. Ziggs is one of my favorites, and when I play Kai'sa I tend to go all in on AP poke since I really don't trust my team to use their cc to peel, if they even pick something with hard cc at all. What I don't like is that no support seems to know how to play alongside an AP bot laner. It sucks to pick Ziggs or Karth and then have your support pick Lulu or other bad synergy pick, or having a Senna shove lane all game and wonder why you can't farm or poke. I would absolutely play an AP bot laner in most of my games since it's easier to play safe and I can be a little more independent, but the amount of flaming I get is unreal.

How does the map look like it's autumn or fall on summoner's rift? Is it just color shading?

how do you make the rift so pretty? is it a post production thing?

A PSA that Karthus Seraphine and Veigar should be perma meta this patch :)

how do you get the map to look like that?

Also in ur scaling calculation you miss represent the factor range plays. Ränge is the most important scaling metric. And the only adcs that can match images range with aas are jinx q kog w maybe Cait with rapid senna late and aphrlios with r. Every other acc can just get gunned down before they even get to aa

In Wild Rift especially in competitive. This is more meta than the PC version. Believe me, there's a lot of Ziggs bot and even Zoe bot.

8:25 not exponential. Just higher order polynomial, or in this case, about stats total to the third power (crit, as, ad).

What are your thoughts about Heimerdinger, Syndra, Cassiopeia, Neeko botlane?

Can you make a video on omega strikers?

I usually play adc Bot then I play League (Wild Rift). This video made me actually want to try out playing AP Bot.

This might seem a little troll but I think Asol could be considered an AP bot-laner due to his infinite scaling and similar playstyle to swain. What he lacks in safety and defense he can make up for in roaming potential.

Adc have been shafted due to ever shortening ttk. Many adc kit revolves around hitting enemy multiple times as fast as possible. With as cap being 1.8-2.5 you are not gonna get more than 5 hits realistically when most fights last less than 5s. So most adcs need to have extra utility/chunk potential. Where mages shine being in bot

is ap botlane good on wild rift? hmmm especially veigar since i'm a veigar main and i also play a lot as adc

I play ziggs only bot, something about my entire life being dodgeable whilst their autos not so feels like balance

Lol I only play mages in bot, this was made for me. Been maining Heimerdinger recently

I’m an ADC main, but I love playing seraphine or veigar bot and I have great winrates with them. Funnily enough, my best ADC is MF who you can basically play like an AD mage.

you sort of mentioned it but I think ap carries have better synergy with engage supports and controllers (veigar, brand, lux) than ad carries. Every time I play as ziggs/veigar/seraphine bot, I can chose to poke them out of lane with ziggs + lux, cc chain the enemy adc or support from range with ziggs/ seraphine + veigar or just go for a kill lane like nautilus + ziggs/veigar as the root makes it so much easier to burst enemies down. Mages also do not suffer as much as adcs when they perma group up with their team because 1. though they are level dependent, they have utility and 2. they clear waves well, which means their income is not as bad as adcs and 3. their threat level in mid game is absurd. Trust me, after level 6 roam mid with ziggs or veigar and they would not have a fun time.

Asol bot is pretty good and flexible. Best with certain supports but its pretty good overall.

Why do you consider Kennen bot troll? His w passive has an ad scaling, and stacks based on auto attacks, as opposed to ability casts, His q is a skill shot like mostotger adc abilities. With a nashors tooth and the new hybrid marksman items, id say hed make a good mage botlaner, if you put in a little time.

I swear every time he pronounces xin Zhao I just think he has to be able to speak Chinese because his pronunciation is just so good but every other Asian word he says is also so well pronounced like when he got sponsored by sakuraco and Tokyo treat he pronounced every japanese word extremely well

As I say to my friends when playing Viktor bot: the glorious evolution happens in bot lane

You forgot about Lethality/Magic Pen for abilities

What is the longest dash? 🤔

you forgot malzahar, brand, and my personal favorite, diana :D

Season 1 my bro and i use to run dual diver in bot

Woohoo what map is that @ 3:50

I am Vel'koz apc enjoyer ever since ProGuides suggested it in one of their videos 😅

I have been playing asol bot lane and its kinda nuts.

Vars I just wanna ask why not make a video about bruiser top laners especially Olaf I just wanna see why is he so unpopular

My main champs are Ahri, Syndra and Viktor and I will gladly troll them into bot lane whenever I get auto filled out of mid. Especially Syndra can have nasty combos with supports like Lux, Morgana, Swain or other CC heavy enchanters. I'd almost say that I pick her more often bot than in mid lane due to assassins being slightly annoying. Viktor is probably much better mid than bot but he's fun and once lvl 6 you just automatically win lane.

Would Ryze be a good AP Bot Laner? He is missing range but he scales incredibly well late game with consistent DPS.

9:00 *jhin raises his hand*

11:00 us veigar mains thank you

why does your summoner's rift look cooler than default

13.10 Ahri adc mid/adc is now a thing?

I had an enemy veigar ziggs botlane. Viegar throws a random cage and ziggs W you into the cage. Annoying as fck to pkay against

pls do qiyana

I love Cassiopeia bot. Same dps as a adc with a support to back you up.

Damn, remember when Corki was a marksman? I almost forgot

Casseopeia bot also exists but nobody plays her, even though you would think ADC players would have the mechanics to make her work

how did he get the game to look like the older version ?

nowadays i play vex and my premade does brand. it's fun and effective

I just want to know one singular thing: why does veigar's Q look like his W and his W look like his Q

9:00 Pure AD? maybe not, but dmg on every aa - sure, there is draven, who can do that starting around lvl 5

Can I have '' why everyone play jax'' video pls????

As always it's dependent on meta (As vars says) but there's just something so inherently broken against mages having consistent curves compared to adc's, meaning that while marksmen are hella busted late game but to a lesser extent, so are mages. Check out all the mages in bot lane, they are all p solid scalers, meaning that as a mage you have an inherent advantage over the enemy marksmen because the lead they will inevitably gain then transitions into a situation where as a mage you just auto win. I say this as a disgusting Karthus bot main, I can auto win my lanes because I bully marksmen while having the immense scaling ability to just press r and win any fight. This is a problem individual to Karthus but it's a common theme among mage bot laners. Seraphine ult, Veigar cage, Swain e, Karthus ult/q, ziggs w, they all have abilities to force interaction or no interaction, meaning as an adc you're at the mercy of the mage for the first 10-15 minutes of the game. So in summary, mage bot laners just have the ability to screw over adc's early on and still scale incredibly well.

Does Swain still belong there?

What about azir bot?

12:44 But what if you play him like an actual ADC? You can stun people with just your auto attacks as well as having a super ultimate. Ever since the new item update I've been spamming it (in pisslow Bronze FYI) and doing incredibly well.

karthus bot is my legit tryhard pick

Phreak actually talked about this! Mages are made significantly stronger in lower elos due to players straight up forgetting to take MR runes. They are still strong, but their winrate is slightly inflated silver and lower.

I'd feel more in favor of the AP Bot laner if Battlemages were designed to be able to function in bot lane opposed to burst mages. Like, it's just not fun getting CC chained from 100% to 0% (or getting chunked by 80% or even 60%) just because you got hit by a stray attack from either the enemy apc or support. And by battlemages, I just mean mages that value sustained DPS over burst combos. Heimerdinger apc isn't as annoying to go up against as Veigar apc, and I'd be Heim is the more interesting of the two to play.

Playing Evelynn support is so funny now because of the MR shred benefitting both you and your ap carry 💀

Note: this is not 100% accurate, but is somewhat true Toplaners are pretty strong into most mids, Midlaners are pretty strong into botlaners, and botlaners are pretty strong in the toplane

Almost anyone can go boy lane now a days and the simple concept of ADC isn’t as prevalent a thing anymore which is interesting to see.

Thanks.

I still get some joy out of playing mages botlane, but I primairly play Syndra and Lux for mage option. Often getting griefed as a result cus they'rent play much if at all.

Apc like karthas right now are incredibly stronger than adc then all points in the game right now. Level 1 karth isolated q is crazy.

Mfw I play this and get pentakilled by the opponent 0/6 Jinx because she hit her spike and gets 300 damage 3x/sec while my 600damage skillshot can miss, costs mana, and goes on a 3sec cooldown.