Did anyone tell Joey the reason Tempered Steel is in so many of those urza list is because its in the precon. Though I did take it out for Urza LHA.

You guys never fail to make friday better

Joey is a great person to interact with at a commandfest I had the privilege of doing so in Seattle earlier this year. Go Joey! Get the Segway back from Matt and Dana

Imagine my shock when I walk into my local game store and see Dana Roach playing Tuesday night Commander. I had no idea we shared the same small lgs.

As a casual and cEDH player. I am happy with where cEDH is and hope no bannings occur. The community just needs to remain clear on understanding what cards belong at a casual table or not

Not sure I can get on board with the dockside salt. It's a strong ritual, sure. But dockside wins less games than mana crypt or sol ring, two cards which are not talked about at all. All fast mana gives lopsided access to resources. I don't see dockside being any more out of line than a reasonably long list of others, many of which are less boardstate dependent and have a lower CMC. It think Dockside might get more salt because it can be more splashy, not because it is more powerful.

I’m glad Dana mentioned other formats’ impact on card perception in EDH. I’ve been tempted (heh) to play The One Ring in a legendary matters deck with a LoTR sub theme, in which it would be extremely good, but my playgroup plays so much modern that they would immediately hate/target me in the game. I might end up proxying it, but it definitely makes me hesitate

Salt made a pun joke, and it was sodium funny.

wrt to Unfinity the two times ive played against decks based around them theyve basically won that person the game cause theyre just so unexpected, and depending on the deck, a bit hard to interact with. One game was against a Mayra the Magnificent attraction deck that yeah we know upfront was an attraction deck but because no one knew what the heck attractions were or did we didnt really know how to properly interact with them. So we ended up ignoring them and it cost us the game.

So besides the Salt Score, would EDHREC consider making a Power Score feature?

I think Dana was right on the money about the new additions to the top 10. Dockside and Thoracle, while many said they are "clearly" CEDH cards, are showing up more and more in casual decks (where they should definitely not be). As for the highest risers, I suspect it has to do with the initial mindset of, "Oh this is a cool card, let's play with it," and it turned into, "Oh wait, this(these) is (are) just consistently taking over games and are getting old (anticlimactic)." 18:48 Not even needing to reach untap; it has haste, oof. I'm lucky I never ran into one of these decks yet. 39:48 Another point on Bribery on why I think it dropped in salt is with mana value being stingier, weighing an entire 5 mana (which is a lot, usually that just being your whole turn) on a big maybe can't compare to other 4-5 mana bombs that keep being printed. The question becomes, "Do I want to spend 5 mana on something that might help me or on something that WILL help me, guaranteed."

I think Bribery dropped in salt score because you have less people playing darksteel or massive eldrazi in their decks these days. I remember pulling darksteel out of my deck because it kept being stolen by bribery and acquire to the point where I lost to it a lot more than it won me games. It's salt inducing to lose to your own cards, especially when they get tutored out at a big discount.

I find it very funny that during Challenge the Stats, of all the commanders that Dana mentioned for his Challenge, there was only 1 commander that was actually In Universe, all the rest were Universes Beyond cards

I know he's a big bad slug but it is kind of crazy to me that Toxrill is now saltier than Trinisphere in EDH, especially since slugs die in salt

On a scale of 0 to 4, I am once again surprised to see nothing above a 2.99.

Akroma's will is my go to game ender in white so I'm not surprised with its increase

Great video Guy's! Keep them coming...and I haven't of thought of 'Licid's' in decades! Great Job!

27:00 Is a serious power move. Go get it, Matt. Assert dominance.

Akroma's Will is like half price Craterhoof, definitely very salt-inducing

I love the idea oof an average salt score but I do also beleve that it is sometime simply how a card is used. Take disallow, not salty at all but it can make someone salty if you say counter a kethrils etb trigger instead of just countering him entierly.

Played against The One Ring for the first time last month and got WRECKED by it. Opponent read the card and explained what it does. We all nodded. Three turns later it's my go. The Ring opponent was already archenemy so we were trying to attack them down. SOMEHOW, the table had forgotten about the protection clause. I swung in hard and, when my opponent declared no blocks, I face palmer violently. We had all been fooled!

Seems that people are very fed up with thoracle and dockside

42:45 I agree with this point, Commander to me is an escape from the more competitive formats, where I can do more janky stuff. I don't really wanna see the pushed cards from those formats coming up in commander games as well, so cards like: The One Ring, Bowmaster, Atraxa, Elesh Norn, and Sheoldred come across as more salty to me. That said I'd disagree on The One Ring dropping off in salt. If The One Ring cost a dollar it would be as common an include in decks as arcane signet. There is always going to be that audible groan when its cast like when someone plays a Mana Crypt, "Were playing THAT kinda game eh?"

Exposure is definitely a factor. Storage Matrix can fit in much more decks than Static Orb with great effect but is nowhere to be seen at EDH tables (luckily). Infernal Darkness is also pretty effective in mono black decks, even better with K'rik

People can handle a lot if they brace themselves, often far more than they themselves think they can. On the other extreme, stress is a healthy response to your expectations not matching up with reality. Its your brain's attempt to rewire the way you see things so you can better predict the future. If you get an unexpected positive that will motivate you and you'll remember those circumstances, if you get an unexpected negative you get stress. And not a proportional amount of stress to the offending stimulus, about twice as stressful. Given these things the pregame discussions really are important. Its something a lot of people are resistant to, perhaps out of fear by those salty folk that they might not get to play thier salty cards if they're open and honest about it. And to that I would just like to say, yes your fears are valid and sometimes people will not be down for that sort of game, but surprisingly most people are far more open than you might think, they just wanna brace for impact first. I've been at tables where the table wanted a game that was a bit lower power than I'm use to and when we quickly discovered that, someone was able to lend me an appropriate deck that I enjoyed more than what I brought and we proceeded to have a great time for the next couple of hours

"Jenga taxias" into "it was about time"just got me rollong on the flor

@Joey. I will be there as well. I hope I can get a game in with you!

Always love this part of Friday evenings 🎉

I'll take Dockside Extortionist in every red deck over the stacks pieces in any deck

I once went to a zoo that only had one dog in it. It was a Shih Tzu.

I think people are just getting saltier in general. Maybe we also need to inject a little more kindness and love in the world.

Right now farewell has a real high salt score from me. Last week I was playing my enchantress deck and was the only thing keeping the Yawgmoth deck from preventing everyone from playing magic and another opponent (who basically did nothing all game) cast farewell and got rid of my board and the Yawgmoth player took over the game

I do enjoy hearing the differing opinions from you guys

Love the blue licid ❤ 3 mana steal a thing (okay, more obstacles than that, but its still generally faster than all its other permanant theif friends)

A sizable part of problematic cards has to do with having a heads up for sure. Like combos are infamous, but it's not so bad if I know I should be holding up interaction for the combo and making interesting decisions on whether I can chance pushing my boardstate or digging for an answer for the inevitable combo turn. When it's sprung on you out of nowhere it feels like as you said, that it was a game you weren't prepared to have, but also that you were taken advantage of, in regards to combo decks at least. Also on the topic of silver border cards, it's a shame the swath is so large in terms of how they can affect the game. There's a big difference between something like Target Minotaur or B-I-N-G-O and something like Rules Lawyer or Gotcha cards, or even "Ach! Hans, Run!", because you know the thing Hans is always running from is going to be a Blightsteel.

Im an aggro player and i usually build my decks with some ways to protect myself from sweepers (indestructible until end of turn or creatures that leave tokens behind when they die). The problem with all these exile sweepers is that all these mechanisms become completely useless and i have to switch them all to phase out cards or counter spells. Whats next? Exile all creatures with split second? I kind of enjoy the simplicity of action/reaction, and sure, sometimes you need to exile but i feel those effects would be better on single target removal for more elaborate gameplay. And not one card: you're all gone

People get salty from every powerful card these days. Take Sheoldred, she is in my Vito deck just for the Vito tricks, but as long as people don’t play her with all kinds of wheels and massive card draw, it’s fine in my opinion.

Newest salt data doesnt show for me, just the 2022 data as the latest. Is that an issue on my end or has the page not been made available yet?

Doctor "Whomst"! That got me to laugh, well done. 😂

I pulled a new Sheoldred at back to back PreRelease events! It can singlehandedly win games of Sealed.

Sounds like I built Atraxa wrong. I use it for Vampire Nighthawk which is my favourite card that i struggle to put into decks now, so i made it a dedicated deck. The deck consists of cards that share as many keywords with vampire nighthawk as possible.

I definitely understand the problem with The Beamtown Bullies. However, I have a TBB deck and it is one of my favorites to play. I specifically made it so there are no instant kills and it needs to win with combat. I give people creatures like the Hunted Troll, Dragon, Horror, and Life of the Party to put a lot of power into play all over the board. Perhaps it is a bit chaotic, but I think it does make TBB much more interesting. In regards to The One Ring, I strongly believe it is the single most powerful card legal in the format. I believe it would be even without its "protection from everything" effect. It is Indestructible which makes it difficult to remove and draws the player more cards than any other card, not to mention more quickly drawing that mass of cards. When played properly, it takes over the game. It is comparable to Primeval Titan and Prophet of Kruphix. The player of the card gains so much advantage that they must be dealt with or answered immediately. Primeval Titan and Prophet are banned because of this and those are just dumb creatures that can be killed easily. The One Ring gives you comparable advantage and is significantly more difficult to remove. Not to mention it is legal to play in any deck. I personally do not believe in banning cards from Commander at this point because of the incompleteness of the current ban list. However if TRC was consistent with banning things, I genuinely believe The One Ring would be banned.

The only cards I hate playing against are the ones that let’s people touch my cards

When do salt polls open? I never see announcements for it.

I'm sad Beamtown Bullies get such a bad rap, because I LOVE my 'Lightning Elemental Tribal' build- super high power, 1 or 2 toughness, trample and haste plus an additional effect sometimes (think Lightning Skelemental or Ball Lightning) and its a lot of fun giving these haymakers to my opponents, but if i go up to a new table and say "so, I have this Beamrown Bullies deck-" thats me booted from the table. I kinda understand that the cheatyface way of building the deck is the most common, but I still think its unfair to judge the commander so harshly because of that. There's so much room for creativity with the commander but I dont know how many people would be willing to even try and build it because the commander is so stigmatized.

Can we all agree that land destruction is the same as de banking someone?

Saltiest opening: gemstone caverns turn zero, Island, helm of awakening, Sol Ring and Winter orb t1. Galazeth prismari T2 with land drop and lotus petal. T3 expropriate. Blue sun zenith on first extra turn and proceed to combo kill whole table by t5. Yes I played that game and I'm not even sorry lol

Having built Urza stax, yeah winter orb def checks out.

Once they announce the dates for Chicago magic fest, i hope yall will be there!!!

My yidris deck is my go to for playing against strong decks, because it can either be played really casually and enjoyably, but it is completely unpredictable, and it can just go off and win on turn 5 so its my "oh we're playing this game huh"

I do not have a play group or a consistent store because i can only play maybe 3 times in a month. But i started asking people if they have decks that they love but dont bring out very often. And ask them why they dont play them. Personally i like higher power tables even if my decks and play style dont match up well. I like preators, annihilator, mill, wheels and a few stax cards once in a while. I love interraction and playing bombs because i never got to play with these cards like everyone else has. I learned to play during quarantine and never even got to play at a store until the following year. So i do not have the same relationship to these cards like everyone else. But ill never play these cards with out telling people ahead of time. Food for thought

When is the new data going to posted on the website? I still see last year's...

Urza doesn’t need tempered steel. At all. Just cast a 3 mana artifact.

agree with all of this, I am just shocked cyc rift didn't make the top 10

I don't know why ppl are upset by any of these cards that don't drag on the game. Like Thoricle just ends the game. That's great!

Are some cards like Etali salty everywhere or just as commanders? I hope this can be discussed in future. Thanks.

I think farewell would be better balanced of each additional ability cost +2 more for each one you choose

Okay, I love your podcast, it's been super uplifting for basically forever. I just had a thought on the discourse I wanted to share - I'm sorry Matt, but for the first time in a long time I disagree - specifically on bribery. The reduced cost and increased speed of Commander since 2011, or even just 2018 can't be ignored when talking about a five mana theft effect. If I'm spending five mana to grab something from an opponent, I want it to be at the MINIMUM, mana neutral, if not at least 1-2 mana positive. Conversely, when I'm building a deck, I'm only including six or seven mana cards that are absolute BLOWOUTS for my specific strategy; none of those cards make good bribery targets unless the oppo's deck has the same or similar strategy to mine, that I could snag his/her/their cards to create my own game-winning scenario. But if that's the case... I'd just rather run the card I'm trying to steal, or a lower mana value card that has a similar effect, or something to tutor out that effect from my deck. Value effects have passed the five mana slot by in modern day commander IMO.

My gosh, the dead jokes keep going better and better. Just for the record, I love you guys.

I use an attraction deck as psychological warfare, it's unsleeved and riffle shuffled

Does Mats segue have split second because no one could possibly respond to that 😂

The only time I’ve seen Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines in play was when one player cast the card, another person copied it, and me and the other guy were both playing etb decks in Gonti and Yarok. I know my view on it is skewed, but seeing two copies of it shut down half the table put a bad taste in my mouth

Nah you can count on Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines continuing to go up IMO. SOOOOO many commander deck inclusions are that way because of ETBs, and shutting them off is pure salt. I'm surprised it's that low.

The high std dev section was very interesting!

the problem with Beamtown Bullies is that, even if you want to play not "that" Beamtown bullies deck, people will expect that you do and focus you anyway, so you "should" do "that" beamtown bullies

What I find to be the most salt inducing is when someone builds every deck, regardless of power level, with the ability to win on turn 3. Someone in my play group runs mana crypt in every deck along with thoracle, dockside and I have even seen jokulhaups in any and every deck he can fit them in. And some of his decks have a commander that just are there to be a decoy to the real strategy. And everyone else who sat at the table is like "I brought a straight precon" and made that very clear and were all fine to do so, but the other guy is like "oh yea, this isn't a precon, but it's not that strong". He then proceeds to beat all the precons in such a way to make those players just get up and leave.

2023 data is not showing on the website!

Matt’s Segway came in like the kool aid man through a wall

I'm taking work off next year to spam vote for Saltblast. Let's get Saltblast in the top ten next year.

Paradox Engine wasn't banned because people played it in the wrong contexts. It was banned because it turned any deck with artifact ramp and activated abilities up to eleven. It didn't need to be built around, you just needed those two check marks (which most decks have anyways) checked and you could ram the Engine in there to great effect. Furthermore, and I think this was a bigger contributor to it's sodium level; it essentially made any modestly built out board with said check marks go virtually infinite, but most usually without winning. Before it was banned, I both subjected others and was subjected to Paradox Engine turns that broke both social and game rules, because so much happened that it was logistically impossible to maintain the board state, and and the turns it enabled were LONG. They rarely won the game, but those turns to forever to end. I suppose you can claim that it's running it in the wrong context if you don't run it in tandem with Fireball, Debt to the Deathless, Exsanguinate, and so on, so that you can end a game in a timely fashion once it's played, but that isn't the same thing as with Dockside et al.

JEN-GATAXIAS? 😂😂😂

The price of Orcish Bowmasters makes me salty just thinking about it. Makes me wish it were BANNED in those LESSER formats.

yeah i'd defintiely say that cards like dockside and fierce guardianship are salt inducing for me cus i feel obligated to put them in my decks. feels like a waste to have them, and a waste to not. its a lose-lose scenario and the format can feel less like a 100 card format and more like a 90-80 card format sometimes.

Power move! god I love the segweys

Farewell is such a necessary card for the format though with hexproof and indestructible being so easy to put on enchantments and artifacts these days. You need an efficient way to deal with boards that isn't locked to Orzhov colors

Bribery with Zevlor is literally 7 mana for 4 awesome creatures

1 min in... these jokes are grizzly

Thassa's oracle is kind of misplaced to me. It's an actual do nothing card. It's just there as the easiest layup for a salty uninteractive type of victory. But at no point am I ever dreading it being in anyone hands like I would a winter orb, a stasis, Or a static orb. It's a sweaty card, but I don't think it's salty. It's the type of decks that run it. Which can do the exact same thing with a Lab Maniac, or a Jace.

How are there no 4's

Jodah is going to be a bigger problem the more legendaries WTC prints

I summon pot of greed to transition to challenge the stats

Oh, Palinchron ain't THAT much anymore

I'm going to keep playing tergrid whenever i can, discard and sacrifice are still my favourite things to do. Maybe they give us a fixed tergrid eventually. Dockside and thoracle really do just need to stay away from the casual tables, you'd think over time the format would self police those cards to higherpower.

I came across this issue upon returning to magic and I thought the answer would be a group hug themed deck. Do you know what I spent most of my time doing? Watching people think about all the things they could do and games would go to time. Part of that comes from card design now that every card triggers 5 different things and the availability of precons shortcuts the need to learn the cards in your deck but the incompetence of players makes stacking and denying resources to reduce an opponents options essential to finish a game. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs

Static Orb is quite a bit worse than Winter Orb imo

best. challenge the stats. segway.

Can we have a Joey and Matt boxing match? Isn't that what creators do now?

I swear to everything, if anyone ever played an unfinity card in a game I was playing, I'd immediately pack my cards up and leave. If you want to play something like that, you have to be completely sure the playgroup is okay with ALL of the crap that might come out of it. I honestly think those might be the worst thing to have ever come from Wizards, with the possible exception of the reserve list.

Guys, you really have to mention the vote in the podcast. I missed 2 times in a row :(

I'm glad better help worked for you, it made my mental health worse

19:56 I voted several cards ratings of 1 or 2 for this reason. Cards that slow the game, specially in not a real interesting way, kind of annoying. Some dont even really help the caster win, they just put everyone else back a turn, or take literally 10-15 minutes to resolve, or put a trigger on the stack multiple times a turn, not fun, kinda salty. But only like minimal salt, like I said, about a 1.

theres a lot of cast from exile decks flying around now and drannith just hard stops them all, think peeps rating nhim higher because they cant play their new commanders kek

Seems people still don't get the difference between a broken card and a salty one.

Thassa oracle is Wrongfully hated. The other side of the combos are the issue. Thassas oracle in a draw heavy deck is just a way to not make yourself lose

Biggest thing I learned from this video is that Matt is a very salty player. Almost no cards on any of these lists bother me at all. Matt's got a laundry list lol.

Is Portland a Nice city to live in?

Still like the salt score but I always wonder why the score goes from 0-4 and not 1-5? I guess it’s mostly because it’s easier to manage big data in a 0 based computer system but it’s odd it’s the only case I see it here as end users

Sheoldred should BURN - thank you for clarifying that!

I think tempered steel is not bad because getting your 6 cost commander to stick is hard and a deck that makes a wide artifact board would like to have this in a pinch.

Kalitas made my whole table salt out. Not shown here but the response was hilarious. Groans around the table.